Tool Drool: 12" Combination Square

[Rob Hough]

So I picked up a new tool over the weekend.

Starrett 12" Combination Square:
http://sawmillcreek.org/picture.php?albumid=312&pictureid=3086

Seems to me a tool that gets used on every project should be a quality tool, so I made a point of getting a quality square this time around. My previous square was a c-man. Worked quite well actually, but I can just "feel" the difference between the two. It is machined very well.

[Stephen Edwards]

That looks like a fine square. I have an old Craftsman, I think from the 50s or early 60s. It, too, is a good square; no comparison to their modern counterparts.

Congratulations on your new square. That's a gloat IMO.

[Tony Shea]

You should be very happy with this square. IMO there is no other combo square on the market that I would ever consider buying other than the Starrets. I just recently added a little partner to my 12" combo square, and nice little 6". I find myself using this 6" more than any other size square I have, just a very convienent size.

[Rob Hough]

I was told the 6" rule is interchangeable by someone I believe? I might have to get one, as there have definitely been times when I had to find something else to use.

That brings up something else I was reading in another persons thread about the Groz square set... How does one go about making sure ones square is... square?

[Brian Tymchak]

Rob,

I think you will be very happy with that square. I use mine all the time. Mine was a bit rough in the slide at first, but it is getting smoother with use. I got the "kit" with the protractor head. But I have yet to use it.

Like Tony, I just added a couple small Starrets as well, a pair of the 4" engineer squares. I'm using them for layout. Set'em once, leave them set for the project. Very handy. I might get a couple more.

Brian

[Louis Brandt]

Are the Starret squares really that much better than cheaper ones? I just bought a cheap one at Harbor Freight, and it seems pretty good. What's the selling point for the expensive ones? Are they more durable, more accurate?
Louis

[Brian Tymchak]

That brings up something else I was reading in another persons thread about the Groz square set... How does one go about making sure ones square is... square?

I've always used this quick little test. One a piece of material at least as wide as the rule length and with a straight edge (like a piece of mdf), set the square to the edge and draw a line along the rule. flip the square over, set it to the edge, and draw another line along the rule close to the other line but not right on it. Look (or measure) at end of the lines farthest from the straight edge. If the distance between those lines is different (either more or less) than the distance between those lines near the straight edge, the square is not square. The difference between those 2 distances is twice the amount the square is out of square at the farthest end of the rule.

Now, I've heard of ways to straighten a framing square, but I don't know of any techniques to adjust a combo square.

[John Carlo]

I've had the same model since the 70's and it is my "go to" square of choice. I'm not sure why as I have others that are also dead on accurate. I guess it's because the head slides to use for marking and layout and the scale is easy to read. Mine came with the center finding and protractor heads which makes it even more useful. Enjoy it Rob.

[george wilson]

The GOOD Starrets have hardened parts. Cheaper squares are just cast iron,or even pot metal. Bridge City made a combo. square with hardened steel pins in the head(brass?) so it would not wear. I'd prefer hardened heads. It is easy for a combination square to get out of square from being slid back and forth. I only use machinists solid steel squares. I have them from 2" up to 24" blades. They get HEAVY. Luckily,I've been able to find excellent condition old Starrett and Brown and Sharpe squares,and black granite squares to check them with.

NONE of the cheaper imported or cheaper English made machinists squares are exceedingly accurate. I only use those for setting my platen square on the Wilton Square wheel grinder. The get touched on abrasive belts,and tend to get wet,too.

The cheaper solid squares can be knocked into reasonable squareness if you have an accurate master square to test it to.

[Brian Tymchak]

I'm sure other brand squares are quite sufficient for good quality woodworking.

Here's how I came to choose the Starrett. Years ago, before I had really got into woodworking, I bought a cheap combo square (with plastic head) at one of the BORGs. Still have it and occasionally use it. But I realized one day that the ends of the rule were not cut square to the rule. I was using it to "slide" mark some layout lines, where you park the pencil on the end of the rule and slide both along, marking the line. I realized later that the marks were off a bit and figured out that I had placed the pencil point at different places on the end of the rule. With it being out of square, the lines were off So, a couple years ago, I wanted an upgrade in quality and the Starrett seemed to be a very good name. The Starret has a "protractor" head available as well and I thought that would be useful so that helped me make my choice. As it turns out, I haven't used the protractor head yet...

But those little 4" sliding squares, very neat. Starrett is the only brand I found that offered those. Lie-Nielsen has them.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Are the Starret squares really that much better than cheaper ones? I just bought a cheap one at Harbor Freight, and it seems pretty good. What's the selling point for the expensive ones? Are they more durable, more accurate?
Louis

If your HF one is actually square, then it does it's job. Mine was off by 1/8" over it's 12" length. That's WAY too much error for my taste.

I think the OP purchased this very nice tool just because it's something he'll use often, and the higher quality "fit and finish" is worth it. Just like a $9 random orbit sander from HF will do the same thing as a $400 Festool sander - but they're not the "same" :)

[Chris Padilla]

That brings up something else I was reading in another persons thread about the Groz square set... How does one go about making sure ones square is... square?

You need a reference square that you feel is square. With that in mind, I spent a some mulah on a nice 6" Starrett square and I use that to measure other squares with and to set up machines. It doesn't come out of the box or paper wrappings much but it is nice to know I have such a reference.

[Frank Drew]

Are the Starret squares really that much better than cheaper ones?

Yes, no question; but that doesn't mean that anyone absolutely needs what's in effect machinist level of quality and accuracy for woodworking.

But it simply feels better to use quality tools.

[Michael MacDonald]

did you get from a retail store, or through the mail? I have considered ordering one, but I would hate for FedEx to get their slippy hands on it and drop it off a truck a couple of dozen times (no exaggeration?).

I would rather buy one in person--want to see it before I pull out the wallet.

But can't find a nearby retailer... Rockler doesn't carry it... and woodcraft is a long drive, so I haven't tried them yet...

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

There's nothing that lets you feel more confident when cutting wood than being sure your set up is perfectly square. Unfortunately, owning a fine quality square also removes the excuses. Enjoy your new square. They're the best.
fmr

[Chas Fuggetta]

If your HF one is actually square, then it does it's job. Mine was off by 1/8" over it's 12" length. That's WAY too much error for my taste.

I think the OP purchased this very nice tool just because it's something he'll use often, and the higher quality "fit and finish" is worth it. Just like a $9 random orbit sander from HF will do the same thing as a $400 Festool sander - but they're not the "same" :)

.125" over a 12" length is just over .5 degrees out of square. 1 degree is .017" over 1 inch.

Starret is a quality tool used to make quality products. I have an 18" blade that is out about .020" over it's length which if fine by me!

[Chris Friesen]

But those little 4" sliding squares, very neat. Starrett is the only brand I found that offered those. Lie-Nielsen has them.

Lee Valley makes a non-Starret made-in-USA 4" double square. I own one, and like it.

Just a note...the standard Starret combination square has a cast iron head. You need to pay extra for the hardened head.

Lastly, the correct way to fix an out-of-square combination square is to use a teeny little file on the metal nibs that the rule rests on. Take it slow and you'll be fine.

[Rob Hough]

I got mine at Rockler. I'm guessing I have the cast iron, rather than the hardened.... it is still heads over heels better than what I had.

I've been watching the bay for some of the machinist squares and gauges too. I don't want to get caught up over "tuning" everything though, but at the same... I don't want to have to do a lot of corrective work either.

[Fred Perreault]

I have been using several Starret squares, protractor, center head and square head for 30 years, or more. I bought them, along with a 1959-60 vintage Craftsman 10" radial arm saw in a package that included an 8" machinists vise, several Starret dividers, inside and outside calipers, slide calipers and protractors, an unused set of Stanley chisels, and an assortment of fasteners and screwdrivers. The Starret tools are still smooth operating, and easy to clean up.
I don't wanna' tell you that I paid way less than $100 in the early 70's from an unhappy wife going through a divorce, selling her hubby's tools. I was actually late, getting last pick.

[Steve Griffin]

The best companion to a Starret combo square is a cheap hardware store square. When doing rough work or hardware installations which benefit from having two squares set up, it's really nice having both. My 15 year old starret is starting to get beat up and chipped, and certainly would have been replaced twice already if I didn't also have an everyday square as well.

-steve

[Glen Butler]

Does anyone else use the General combo square? Not the cheap black one but the more expensive blue one? I think is slides nicely and is super accurate as checked against my Groz.

[Joe Shinall]

Should have just saved the money and got a Harbor Freight combo square. :rolleyes:

[Rob Hough]

Should have just saved the money and got a Harbor Freight combo square. :rolleyes:

I'm not a big fan of the "throw away" generation. I place value in the idea that I can own a tool that will not only serve me well, but my kids too.

[george wilson]

General has always been a low cost tool. If you want a decent square,get a Starrett.

I say that with caution. All my Starrett tools are OLDER. Some funny stuff has come out of Starrett lately.

If you have a pawn shop,or other place where you can pick up used older machinist's tools,try visiting it. Make sure to examine any square for dented corners,or other damage showing it was dropped on the floor.

[Brian Tymchak]

Lee Valley makes a non-Starret made-in-USA 4" double square. I own one, and like it.

Thanks Chris. I don't know how I missed that when I checked Lee-Valley. Also $18 less expensive than the Starrett 4" at Lie-Nielson.

Brian

[Karl Card]

in measuring devices i to prefer to get the best a person can, when i can afford it. WC had a groz set on sale and i bought them. I do like the "fit and finish" on them. I also have the groz 3 piece set for measuring inside and outisde etc.

kudos on the new toy and may you measure accurately..

[Joe Shinall]

I'm not a big fan of the "throw away" generation. I place value in the idea that I can own a tool that will not only serve me well, but my kids too.

It was just a joke. I may be young, but trust me, no "throw away" generation here. Most my tools are my grandfather's 40 year old hand me downs.

[Ray Newman]

'Use ta' know an old pattern maker who swore by Starrett and swore at everything else.

Took his advice about 25 years ago and bought the Starrett 12" combination square. Dead-nuts on and has never let me down. A few years ago, I dropped it off the work bench and the lip on the screw holding the rule in place broke off. I sent it back to Starrett with a note asking them to fix and to call for my MasterCard number to pay for it. About 2 weeks later, Starrett returned it: no charge for repair and replaced the rule as well as there was a nick in it.

Also have a Bridge City 12” combination square that was a gift. Same thing: accurate as all get out. Later ‘sprang for the 18” rule for it -- which has come in handy. First thought that it couldn’t be accurate with a rule that long, but I was wrong.

Hard to go wrong, IMO when buying quality tools: hold up well and are repairable or can be re-calibrated. Lucky enough to have the smaller 6” and 4” combination squares and the double shares as well. While so may seem repetitious, each has one has a function that fits the bill for various projects. One of these days, I’m ‘gonna’ buy the Starrett #14A 2 1/2” double square. Don’t ask me why, but I’ll probably find a need for it once it is the tool kit.

One thing ‘bout quality tools like the 12” Starrett, Bridge City, Brown and Sharpe is that the rule is readable -- even with my bifocal wearing getting tired 64 y.o. eyes. With the better quality rules, I have no problems reading the 32nd and the 64th scale. With the more economical rules, I have difficulty seeing the graduations.

[Ellen Benkin]

I get all my Starrett squares and rules on ebay. So far, they've been perfect.

[Rob Hough]

It was just a joke. I may be young, but trust me, no "throw away" generation here. Most my tools are my grandfather's 40 year old hand me downs.

Well I only say that because just a few years ago I didn't "get" the whole notion of owning quality tools. Hell just a few years ago I had no idea you were supposed to tune/align/etc tools and such. I figured they just did what they did!

I really wish I had some of the tools my grandparents put to work. I'm a bit jealous! :)

[Rob Young]

I've always used this quick little test. One a piece of material at least as wide as the rule length and with a straight edge (like a piece of mdf), set the square to the edge and draw a line along the rule. flip the square over, set it to the edge, and draw another line along the rule close to the other line but not right on it. Look (or measure) at end of the lines farthest from the straight edge. If the distance between those lines is different (either more or less) than the distance between those lines near the straight edge, the square is not square. The difference between those 2 distances is twice the amount the square is out of square at the farthest end of the rule.

Now, I've heard of ways to straighten a framing square, but I don't know of any techniques to adjust a combo square.

Look at the slot where the blade goes. If you can see a small "tongue" down the middle of the slot, then you can adjust the square easily. Simply file a ramp such that the pin pulls the blade square again. A little filing goes a long way.

Squares without the small tongue can be filed also, it just takes more work since you have more material to remove.

[george wilson]

i'm surprised that Starrett fixed up your old out of warranty square. I had a time with the snotty guy at Starrett over my pretty new,but out of warranty dial caliper.

I had other calipers in the shop,and had not used the Starrett for inside measurements. When I did,I discovered that the inside jaws measured .008" OFF true. Ruined a job from it.

I called Starrett,and the guy said it was out of warranty. He wasn't too nice. I finally persuaded him to let me mail it so he could see that it had never been dropped or damaged. They DID fix it.When I got it back,with the repair person's tag in the box,it was ONLY .004" out!!!

I managed to get hold of a vice president somehow. I said I could see how the caliper could get out of the factory not right,but now that it had gotten special attention,I could not understand why. He did stand behind the product and mailed me a new one. I returned the old one so he could ask his employee why she fouled up.

Yes,they finally did help me with their defective caliper,which cost more than all the others I ever had,but it was like pulling teeth trying to persuade the first repair person that his precious product could somehow be defective.

There is also a big discussion on another machinist's forum about their electronic calipers not holding a charge.

I like Starrett tools,but as I mentioned,I ONLY buy OLD ones. Too much stuff is coming out of there wrong to get my confidence.

And,my calipers were USA,NOT Chinese Starretts. I expect the Chinese model would have been more perfect than the American ones. They probably have a better work ethic.

[Michael O'Sullivan]

There's nothing that lets you feel more confident when cutting wood than being sure your set up is perfectly square. Unfortunately, owning a fine quality square also removes the excuses. Enjoy your new square. They're the best.
fmr

It is also nice to have one thing that you know is square, and that you can test everything else against.

Honestly, I probably use my 12" Starrett more to confirm that my TS blade is 90 degrees, and my jointer fence is 90 degrees than for layout tasks.

[Chad Stucke]

I was laying out a plywood cabinet back and from side to side I was getting lines that were off a strong 1/8". I grabbed another framing square and it was off the other way on the end and simular in the middle.
I checked the squares aginst each other. I think they were made for the banana boards from home depot.
I was at a woodworkers show and Starrett was there I bought the $14 or so framing square and could actually read the numbers on it and feel confident that I didn't have to mark it first with a rule. When I got home I cut the old ones in half and put them in the scrap pile. I mounted one on the snowshovel for a blade it works remarkably well there. I also checked the recent stanley and other cheepo combo squares that were out so far that they wouldn't slide good any more. I put them in my freebie box to give away to the next sucker who comes to my garage.
I bought a new os luftkin with the 18,12,"rule combo square I also found the protractor and center gauge recently with a 6" rule. I found a nice planer gauge dated somethin like 1889. I found a couple of indicators and the like. These are really neat and I reach past everything else and smile everytime I use it. I have $$ wrapped up in it but hey I don't have to double check every measurement any more and they just feel good.
Chad

[Frank Drew]

Does anyone else use the General combo square? Not the cheap black one but the more expensive blue one? Glen,

I got a General combination square maybe twenty years ago and it was way, way better than any square in its price range; not Starrett, of course, but a very nicely made, smooth sliding (as you say), accurate square, ideal for job site carpentry.

[Bill LaPointe]

I bought the Starrett set when I started my machinist apprenticeship in 1959. I still use them today. I served that same apprenticeship with many of the precision tools that my Dad used when he served his and still have most of them. Quality hand tools generally outlive the original purchaser.

[Joe Shinall]

I really wish I had some of the tools my grandparents put to work. I'm a bit jealous! :)

Got a couple of his old Stanley planes, an all steel Black and Decker Circular saw and an all steel Craftsman jig and circular saw to name a few. Beasts!

[Jason White]

I have one and love it. I do, however, find myself reaching for my smaller pocket-sized one for setting up blade angles, my jointer fence, etc.

Jason



So I picked up a new tool over the weekend.

Starrett 12" Combination Square:
http://sawmillcreek.org/picture.php?albumid=312&pictureid=3086

Seems to me a tool that gets used on every project should be a quality tool, so I made a point of getting a quality square this time around. My previous square was a c-man. Worked quite well actually, but I can just "feel" the difference between the two. It is machined very well.