HVLP Finish Issues

[Dave Whelan]

I am building a large home theater center and want to finish it semi-gloss white to match all the other woodwork in the living room. The cabinetry is constructed from 'lite' MDF with poplar trim.

I bought a Fuji 3 HVLP with a gravity feed gun to do the finishing. I have never used a HVLP before and am having trouble chosing the best material to spray.

I tried using SW enamel on a test board and while the finish looked great, the gun cleanup was difficult and the fumes (even with a respirator) was almost too much to take.

The local stores are only interested in promoting what they sell (which is understandable), but I can really use some insight from those who have experience doing this type of finishing.

I am so glad that I found this forum, I have learned a lot reading other's questions and answers.

Thanks

[Phil Phelps]

SW Alkyd enamel? You need a serious primer to start. You can use Bin pigmented shellac, alcohol base, or an alkyd primer. You need to fill the MDF before you prime it. I use joint compound, (mud) and use a trowel or a broad knife. Scrape the mud on and scrape it off, clean. Then let it haze, and sand with 220 and prime. The next issue is your respirator. You shouldn't smell any fumes at all. If you have a spray booth, I'd use lacquer. If you don't, I'd use a water base paint and hope for the best. When using a HVLP with water base paint or alkyd, you thin them way over what the manufacturer would recommend.

[Frederick Rowe]

Dave - Try Target Coatings EM6500. The Bright White Pastel base coat can be used straight from the can. If you want you can tint using any UTC water based colorants. You won't need a primer coat, it can go straight onto MDF.

Look at their web site for further details, I've been spraying the EM6000 with great results. Second only to the finish quality, is the ease of application. No fumes, fast drying, and easy clean up. Soap and water. Only downside is you'll probably need to order from a web vendor or direct from Target Coatings as very few retail shops carry it. Buy a quart and try it out.

targetcoatings.com

[Tony Bilello]

I would use a white primer and follow with a semi-gloss white pre-cat lacquer. Sherwin Williams lacquer primer/sealer should be able to 'fill' the MDF smooth enough to finish with pre-Catalyzed lacquer.

[Phil Phelps]

Dave - Try Target Coatings EM6500. The Bright White Pastel base coat can be used straight from the can. If you want you can tint using any UTC water based colorants. You won't need a primer coat, it can go straight onto MDF.

Look at their web site for further details, I've been spraying the EM6000 with great results. Second only to the finish quality, is the ease of application. No fumes, fast drying, and easy clean up. Soap and water. Only downside is you'll probably need to order from a web vendor or direct from Target Coatings as very few retail shops carry it. Buy a quart and try it out.

targetcoatings.com

This primer sounds and reads like magic paint. I would certainly have to use it to comment on it. I can say that at $47 a gallon my method of filling grain with joint compound is cheaper. I will personally look into Target Coatings. It appears too good to be true, however.

[Frederick Rowe]

Phil - Target Coatings EM6500 is an acrylic pigmented lacquer. From their technical info page -
"EMTECH EM6500 Bright White Pastel Water Based Spray Lacquer is the latest addition to our popular EM6000 Production lacquer family. Used as a bright white primer, surfacer or tinted base coat system, EM6500 offers excellent hiding power on poplar, maple and birch, as well as MDF and other engineered substrates."I've not used EM6500, but have had great results with the EM6000; both are water based lacquer formulated for spray application. In their users forum, several users have applied the product alone, but depending on environment, coating with the TC WB lacquer EM6000 or polycarbonate urethane EM9300 may be a good choice. It sounded like the OP's proposed use would not involve heat, water, alcohol, or hard surface contact, (and if they would be happy with a Satin sheen) hence my recommendation to keep it simple and stick with only the EM6500.

It does sound like "magic paint", but given the OP's level of finishing experience and equipment, I think he would get good results with his Fuji HVLP's standard cap/needle, and could then experiment with a top coat if he wanted.

Agreed that at $58 a gallon (plus top coat of choice, another $47 for EM6000) it's definitely not the least expensive option, but the results are great and achievable for a novice.

[Dave Whelan]

Thanks for the feedback. When I bought the Fuji sprayer I did not research the paint side of the equation and didn't think that it would be an issue finding a good product to spray.
I really appreciate your feedback and will try the EM6000. The MDF is very smooth and I don't think I need to fill it. I do need to fill some of the joints since there are some small gaps (<1/32") and the experimenting I have already done, I discovered that the paint does not fill them.
I have always enjoyed the building side of a project, but never have been very good with the finish side and that is why I bought the HVLP sprayer.
I will report back my results and hope that I can help someone else in the future.

Thanks again.

[Phil Phelps]

Frerdrick, I'm for anything that is better. If you have a better recipe I'll try it. I have been disappointed too many times with claims of other products, however. I'm waiting for the waterbase paint that brushes and levels like alkyd. It is quite amazing that the primer in question needs no reduction and will also cover as well, using a HVLP gun.

[Jim Becker]

Phil, the EM6500 (http://www.targetcoatings.com/shop/catalog/EMTECH_EM6500_Bright_White_Pastel_Base_Coat-35-1.html) is a pigmented (and tintable) version of the EM6000 that many of us really love. These water bornes (not water BASED, no matter what the description) are quality products and are generally easy to use. Don't be discouraged by the cost all that much...the BM Aura paint on my walls was $50 a gallon, too. (and it's excellent) Note that the Target products are best sprayed, so they are not going to make you do hand-stands if you want/need to brush them on, although you can. I have also found them to be "self priming" on a clean, properly prepared surface. BTW, you'd still need to fill cut edges of MDF with this stuff, too. Nature of MDF, not the finish. The EM6500 can be top-coated with the EM6000 to get whatever sheen you want. I used this technique with the two-generations back predecessor to EM6000, called PSL, in my kitchen. The white went on first and then was top coated with clear. It's still going strong and only now showing wear...kitchen was done in 2003.

One of the big challenges for a pro painter like yourself with some of these newer materials is finding/learning techniques for application that still allow you the speed and efficiency that you need to make a buck. When the stuff dries/tacks so quickly, you can't brush it out like you're used to with the oil based products. That's a tough transition, I'm sure!

[Frederick Rowe]

These water bornes (not water BASED, no matter what the description) are quality products and are generally easy to use.Target Coatings calls their products water based. I'm not sure the technical difference between water based vs. water borne but I'm sure it's more than semantics. The Target Coatings user manual (more of an article really) refers to it as water based and describes one of the properties as post curing, being impervious to contact with water.

This manual additionally addresses the topic of whether WB lacquer is a "true" lacquer rather than what Bob Flexner called " . . . entirely different from any of the lacquers . . . related more closely to latex paint and white and yellow glue."

But that's the subject for it's own thread.

[Dave Whelan]

In another forum (which isn't nearly as good as Sawmill Creek) there is discussion about SW's waterborne KEN Aqua topcoat:

http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/us/eng/products/sherwood_kem_aqua_pigmented_lacquer/

Has anyone used this product?

[joe milana]

Geeze Dave, Jeff Jewett at Homestead finishing is right in your neck of the woods and can be a huge help. I've been using General finishes enduro acrylic as per Jeff's recommendation and have had excellent luck and results.

http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/index.html

[Dennis Lopeman]

I'm glad Jim Becker piped in here. Most of his posts are informative to me in my recent research and his observations will soon become my observations! His real world examples from him kitchen redo pretty much mirror what I'm trying to accomplish. He also seems to have a rather in depth knowledge of this exact subject.

Just my 2 cents...

And thanks Jim for participating and helping so many folks out.

[Dennis Lopeman]

Frerdrick, I'm for anything that is better. If you have a better recipe I'll try it. I have been disappointed too many times with claims of other products, however. I'm waiting for the waterbase paint that brushes and levels like alkyd. It is quite amazing that the primer in question needs no reduction and will also cover as well, using a HVLP gun.


From what I have learned so far, the WB product like EM6500/6000 have very little off-gassing or fumes. Smells go away in a day, rather than a few months. They are also formulated mostly for spraying, although the EM9000 (?) is supposed to be for brushing.

It's not a primer - it just happens to not need priming... it's the top-coat! Some folks (like Jim) suggested putting a sealer: like Zinssers Seal Coat or may even a very well cured BLO... cured for a month or more! Who has that kind of patience!?!?!

From all the raving from many many novices (which I will hopefully soon be participating in!) the results are surprisingly awesome.

Due to many disappointments, you may just want to give it a try!

And just to say it again for Dave Whelan: EM6500 is the white, EM6000 is the clear (comes in satin, gloss, etc)

[Doug Hobkirk]

EM6500 can be tinted. So I could use a spray gun to spray blue or green or whatever color I have the local paint store (or Homestead Finishing) tint it. Then I need to spray with a clear EM6000? Because it needs a protective top coat?

Does conventional lacquer paint need a protective top coat also?

[Frederick Rowe]

EM6500 can be tinted. So I could use a spray gun to spray blue or green or whatever color I have the local paint store (or Homestead Finishing) tint it.EM6500 can be tinted, check the Target Coatings web site for a listing of compatible colorants. When dry, EM6500 will have a satin sheen. You can stop at that point, but for a different sheen or to make the finish more durable, top coat with EM6000; a straight forward finish schedule. Both EM6500 and EM6000 are formulated for spraying straight from the can. However, always use a test board, depending on your spray equipment you may need to thin slightly. Both products are fast drying, I'm able to re-coat EM6000 in 30 minutes.


Does conventional lacquer paint need a protective top coat also? Generally, no. Lacquer is a durable topcoat. In situations where the finish will be exposed to high levels of surface abrasion such as a bar top, a tougher finish such a polyurethane will provide better protection.

For your project, a home theater/AV center, lacquer will be more than sufficient.

[Clinton Calwell]

I also have the Fuji Spray Mini Mite 3, and was looking for a good Waterbourne finish to spray both MDF and Maple cabinetry. Many of the brands mentioned in this thread (Target, SW, Etc.) aren't readily available in Metro Vancouver, after some searching decided to try out ML Campbell's Agualente WB product line.

It sprays extremely well, and aside from sanding the edges, no other prep was required for MDF, the Primer sealed the edges in the first coat.

Highly recommend the product!

[Dennis Lopeman]

... the brands mentioned in this thread (Target, SW, Etc.) aren't readily available in Metro Vancouver, after some searching decided to try out ML Campbell's Agualente WB product line...

Funny you mentioned that. I just got Agualente on Friday!! Mostly b/c it's the only locally availabel WB product (that was mentioned is high quality here) in Georgia!! I talked to Jeff at Target Coatings, and he recommended I use the EM2000, rather than EM6000... it's like $75/gal... he said I would proly need 2 - so add $20 S&H... WEll, the Agualente is $56/gal.

Anyway - I hope I'm as pleased as you are Clinton. What size tip nozzle dod you use? the 1.5 mil?

[Tony Bilello]

Does conventional lacquer paint need a protective top coat also?

No it does not although I personally think it looks better with a clear top coat. Purely a matter of taste.

[Clinton Calwell]

Anyway - I hope I'm as pleased as you are Clinton. What size tip nozzle dod you use? the 1.5 mil?

While I'm new to finishing, I'm sure you will be very happy. When I was in to pick it up at the supplier, I was talking to a guy how does a lot of high end custom cabinetry and he was also very pleased with the whole line of ML Campbell Waterbourne products.

I'm using the #4 tip (1.4mm), and it sprays on very nicely indeed. 2 coats of Primer left MDF and Maple Plywood both feeling like glass.

[Henry Ambrose]

snipped.....

I tried using SW enamel on a test board and while the finish looked great, the gun cleanup was difficult and the fumes (even with a respirator) was almost too much to take.



Your respirator is not doing its job. Buy a better one - one that is designed to filter what you are spraying. If its working properly you won't smell anything.

And if the SW enamel looked great it might be a good choice don't you think? And maybe buy some liners for the cup on the gun to ease clean-up.

[Jeff Jewitt]

EM6500 and the General Finshes white acrylic lacquers can be tinted, but only to pastels and off-white shades because they are basically white paints. To achieve other colors like deep reds and blues and blacks, we use a clear finish and add the correct color to it.

Generally when doing a painted finish over MDF, plywood or wood that has a bit of grain in it (birch) you would do well to use a primer first like the General Finishes undercoater/primer. These primers have inert minerals in them different from the color pigment to help fill as well as seal. Typically we recommend 2 coats of primer and two coats of paint. You will definitely have to sand the first coat of primer as well as a light sanding of the second. I think the GF primer does a better filling job than the EM6500 by itself.

If the piece is not subject to heavy abuse, you can leave it at that. Putting a clearcoat over the paint will give it some "scrub" resistance, meaning it can be cleaned easier, but if you want extra durablility and chemical resistance, we suggest a clearcoat like poly in the appropriate sheen with cross-linker. Another advantage of this is that it allows you to change the sheen if the paint (Target EM6500 comes only in satin)

Typically what's nice about the Target and General products is that they are all sprayed with the standard #4 set that comes with the Fuji turbine packages. (I too really like the gravity gun). If you go with a paint store type product you may have to thin them as they are meant for hand application or used with airless spray equipment which is designed to handle thicker products.

[Joe Chritz]

I am currently doing a paint project using SW pro-classic. It some new formulation that has Alklyd at the end of the name. Thinned by about 20% it sprays OK from a HVLP gravity gun. There was a learning curve to move slower with the gun since it appears the finish needs to be sprayed on a bit thicker than I am used to with USL or shellac.

All in all I am fairly happy with the finish, although I believe something like EM6500 would be easier to use from an application stand point.

Joe

[Phil Phelps]

I am currently doing a paint project using SW pro-classic. It some new formulation that has Alklyd at the end of the name. Thinned by about 20% it sprays OK from a HVLP gravity gun. There was a learning curve to move slower with the gun since it appears the finish needs to be sprayed on a bit thicker than I am used to with USL or shellac.

All in all I am fairly happy with the finish, although I believe something like EM6500 would be easier to use from an application stand point.

Joe

Joe, I've sprayed more alkyd paint through a HVLP than I care to mention. You have to thin it so much, you usually knock down a lot of the sheen. If you're painting a cabinet with shelves, you constantly have to worry about sags and runs. You should spray a minimun of three coats and don't try to cover in one spraying. The best results I've ever had was alkyd paint through an airless with a FF tip. Looks like baked on enamel.