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John Frazee
03-13-2010, 11:40 AM
I didn't want to appear as to hijack a particular thread so I opened a new one with the following. Here is a quote from a thread titled Inexpensive Small Laser.



This is one of the few times where I think a Chinese model will fit the bill.

Dave
My response.

Dave, Umm...... I hate to break it to ya sir but I have a Chinese laser from Brightstar that has paid for itself several times over. I would have to say that verbage "Chinese lasers are no good" is over. Sure there are bad ones from there but there are bad ones from here as well. I own a trophy/sign shop and manufacture nametags, plaque plates, acrylics, wine glasses, you name it I do it. Just yesterday, I had 3 rubber stamps, one MPI octogon glass award, four plaques, a large number of trophies and one acrylic w/ photo go out. My laser performed flawlessly. I paid $10,000.00 instead of $20,000-25,000. How many people actually come on here and say they bought a Chinese laser and say they should have listened? There are many sold here, maybe not as many as the more popular brands but there's many. I just don't hear the problems as you and others may refer to.

With money like it is we have to buy what and where we can afford. Our government and unions have really messed things up for us. Quality of made in USA has gone down while the prices have gone up. Yes, China used to be known for the little cheap plastic toy cars, but they are actually putting out better quality (than before) with lower prices on many items. I still don't trust everything from there but can't say I trust everything from here as well.

My next big purchase will be another vehicle to replace one of my present ones. It will more than likely be foreign. Right now, I own a Chevy S10, a Silverado, an Impala, a Cavalier, H3 Hummer and a Mazda Tribute. All of them were made here and have factory-made issues. With the exception of Toyota's right now, you can't beat foreign to last. So if the foreign cars are known to last and be such a great deal, why do foreign lasers get a bad rap?

Rodne Gold
03-13-2010, 1:06 PM
I have 6 chinese lasers - tho priced at mainstream pricing.
To meet a price point on a laser , in which I assume most of the price is in the laser itself and not labour - one has to compromise and the compromises are the tube and motion system in some of the cheaper versions of mainland china lasers
Apart from which the lack of good support and software and the fact that they are going to be more fiddly and are actually more troublesome , mitigate against them to some extent. Patriotism or nationalism also seems to play a part here.
However , I am sure it wont take that long for the cheaper lasers to equal their more expensive counterparts or come so close , with engrish support and decent drivers , fixes of the small bugs etc that buying a local one might not be the best business decision.
I think the local mnfgrs have excess costs in terms of the tube , I cant see why sealed co2 tubes are so pricey-- they have warranttee costs , they mostly have costs in terms of helpdesks , distrubutor networks , advertising , better R&D , expensive labour etc so by the time the consumer gets their machines they are probably paying 1/3 or 1/2 the price for these "services" which some of us might need and others not.
My next lasers will be large format 100/80w glass tubed affairs and I have been quoted landed costs as low as $6k vs 40-50k for "mainstream"
At that price , If I get a years use out of it , I can dump it , or I can buy 3 of em , and even if only 2 work , it's still good. I am technical enough to solve any issues with em. So long as they cut nicely and engrave ok , I'm fine. I don't expect the nth degree of detial or accuracy.
I recon laocal mnfgrs need a wake up cal in respect of offering better features , longer warrantees and reducing price if they want to keep their market share.

Scott Shepherd
03-13-2010, 1:41 PM
So if the foreign cars are known to last and be such a great deal, why do foreign lasers get a bad rap?

What's the name of the Chinese made car you would consider? There is a HUGE difference in Japanese made and Chinese made. There's a HUGE difference in Taiwan made and Chinese made.

I'll comment and it's not meant to bash any brand or make of laser, but if you look at the features, they are not feature rich for the most part. We're talking water cooled tubes, no USB, certainly no ethernet ports. It's old technology. Is there anything wrong with old technology? No. Can new technology do things old technology can't? Probably. Will new technology be faster than old technology? Probably.

You have a lot of cars. When you go looking for a car, do you look for one with airbags, crush zones in the front end, 100,000 mile warranty's, etc? Or do you go looking for one that has no seat belts because they weren't required when it was made, one with no airbags, no automatic windows, etc? Probably not.

So the method you use to buy your cars is the same one others use to buy their lasers. It's no different.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Chinese lasers certainly have a place in the market. Does that mean a Chinese system will meet everyone's needs? No. Will a US made laser meet everyone's needs? No. That's why we have a market. Everyone has different needs.

Viktor Voroncov
03-13-2010, 1:43 PM
Rodney, you are first man I know who have GCC lasers and want buy chinese after :) I have many customers who own 2-3-4 GCC lasers and I don't know any Glass Tube owner who made enough money with laser to purchase GCC/Epilog/ULS/Trotec.
Chinese manufacturers are absolute winners when we speak about large format cutting. In this case difference in price between "brand" and "China" are TOO MUCH :(

PS Taiwan made products are not equal mainland China made products.

Joe Pelonio
03-13-2010, 1:46 PM
My response.

Dave, Umm...... I hate to break it to ya sir but I have a Chinese laser from Brightstar that has paid for itself several times over. I would have to say that verbage "Chinese lasers are no good" is over. Sure there are bad ones from there but there are bad ones from here as well. I own a trophy/sign shop and manufacture nametags, plaque plates, acrylics, wine glasses, you name it I do it. Just yesterday, I had 3 rubber stamps, one MPI octogon glass award, four plaques, a large number of trophies and one acrylic w/ photo go out. My laser performed flawlessly. I paid $10,000.00 instead of $20,000-25,000.

why do foreign lasers get a bad rap?

I think you helped answer your own question. You paid $10,000 for your Chinese laser, that's not all that much less than I paid ($16,000) for my Epilog. The Chinese lasers that I have heard all the horror stories about were in the $2,000-$4,000 range. Just like anything else, you get what you pay for.

rich shepard
03-13-2010, 2:53 PM
You have a lot of cars. When you go looking for a car, do you look for one with airbags, crush zones in the front end, 100,000 mile warranty's, etc? Or do you go looking for one that has no seat belts because they weren't required when it was made, one with no airbags, no automatic windows, etc? Probably not.
.

Now you just described all my cars, nothing newer then 1969 and I can work on them. And next one will be the same no AC or power anything that does not go to the rear wheels. OPS do have a power top on one of them lol
rich

Rodne Gold
03-13-2010, 3:30 PM
Viktor - I want a 1200x800 or bigger 100w machine for mainly cutting - production small stuff and larger items - $5-8k is a steal for one.
I can easily generate the work for one of these.
Problem is , my customers and competitors are getting cheaper machines , their work is as acceptable as mine , but they can afford to radically drop cutting prices. I wont work for peanuts , however I get very deep discounts on raw materials so I can make up a bit on that to offset lower costs. I already have labour in my workshops so it wont cost me anything barring the laser.
I can assure you that I can probably pump out 2-3x the work that any of my Gcc's can.
Whats the price of the 100w Giaia these days - $70k?

Rodne Gold
03-13-2010, 4:45 PM
I made a mistake bought a lateish model gen4 Camaro that I cant work on despite having a pimp your ride v8 shop - you need a computer and when something small goes wrong the car dies - Old skool is still best - Rat motors for the win :)

Scott Shepherd
03-13-2010, 6:20 PM
There's no shame in old school. Some want to make it an either or case and I don't believe it is that. It can be both.

Do you want an ipod that holds your entire music collection or do you want an 8-track tape player or a vinyl record? Some people want vinyl records, some people want ipods. That's what makes the world go around.

Mark Winlund
03-13-2010, 7:56 PM
With money like it is we have to buy what and where we can afford. Our government and unions have really messed things up for us. Quality of made in USA has gone down while the prices have gone up. Yes, China used to be known for the little cheap plastic toy cars, but they are actually putting out better quality (than before) with lower prices on many items. I still don't trust everything from there but can't say I trust everything from here as well.

The same is true for Machine tools.... lathes, milling machines, etc. You can still buy the junk, but the quality is improving all the time.

Mark

Ross Moshinsky
03-14-2010, 3:17 AM
Like Rodney, I see my next machine as a big 100W guy. My 12x18 table is acceptable, but not big enough. The biggest benefit for me with the 100W machine would be the table size. Getting up to a 60x48 would be FANTASTIC. I'm also half tempted to look at a machine that would do 96x48, but I think that's a bit overkill for me. Throwing on full sheets of plexiglas would add a completely different element to my business though. I know a lot of people who HATE CNC'd plexiglass because it has to be flame polished afterwards. Laser cut is basically perfect after. Either way, 100W big guy would leave me at a point where I will rarely be limited to what I can cut and work with.

With that said, finding a person I'd be willing to buy from is going to be a task. I will only buy from someone who is local in the US and has a good support staff. That's easily worth another $1000-2000 in my opinion. If my machine breaks, I want someone who can communicate with me and help me solve the problem. Worst case scenario, they should be able to provide onsite support. I think the biggest thing that China manufacturing lacks is quality control. If my machine is tested and setup before it gets to me by someone that's worth more than a few dollars.

If I had to do it again, I'd still buy a name brand 30W for $10k. For a secondary machine, I see these Chinese units as being a great investment.

I think it would be wise to get a thread together where we list suppliers and reviews of their service and equipment. It doesn't have to be just for Chinese machines either.

Viktor Voroncov
03-14-2010, 5:18 AM
Rodney, Gaia 100 cost much less - see PM, but still like two chinese lasers :)
You are not usual customer - you already have business running well and good experience. But I have every week calls from local customers who bought lasers from e-bay for $1000 and are very dissapointed between promises and reality. This is main problem of chinese lasers - if you have no experience, you hands grew SLIGHTLY NOT FROM PROPER PLACE - avoid Chines lasers with glass tube.
Here is picture from our office - we paid for new tube and THREE times we got old tubes. We test them and send back for replacement, and once more we have new "old" tube :( When our total transportation bill for this deal became over $600 - we cancel business with China.