Planner marks show through stain - Now what?

[Jimmy Williams]

We finally had some warm, and dry, enough weather this past weekend in GA to where I could get some color on a desk I've been working on. The problem is there are a few spots on the top where some marks from the planner came through the dye stain.

The desk is made out of soft maple and was sanded #60, #120, #150, then sprayed with 1:3 shellac to alcohol mix and then lightly sanded again to #320 before the dye stain went on. After the #320 sanding, I looked at all of the pieces in all kinds of lights and angles to make sure I hadn't missed anywhere. Felt all of the pieces with my bare hands and eyes closed. They all felt baby butt smooth and I was sure I had everything as smooth as possible. So I was surprised to see this when the dye stain went on.

So am I screwed and have to sand it all back down and start over again? Will applying another coat of dye stain even the color out enough that I will be okay?

I've been working on this desk since November and don't want to screw it up now but I'm also about tired of working on it.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Jimmy,
I read the series of grits you went through but since you didn't mention the sander you were using, I will assume it was a random orbital. Does that mean you didn't belt sand? I'm kind of old school. My first step after planing and gluing up stock is to belt sand to level any joints that are not perfect and especially to remove planer marks. What you are seeing are probably compression marks from an infeed roller or slightly dull planer blades, especially if your last pass was just a "whisker kiss". They are almost impossible to notice until the finish is applied. Bite the bullet and sand again. You can probably just do the top and any flat panels on the sides then go through your orbital again. If you belt sand 80 and 120, you can begin orbital with 120. Do not sand belt sand across the grain. The marks are too difficult to remove.
If you are not used to a belt sander, practice on wide scrap first. Keep your pressure light and let the machine do the work.
fmr

[Jimmy Williams]

Thanks for the reply. The #60 and #120 were with an orbital sander and the #150 and #320 with a block, sand paper, and some elbow grease. I don't own a belt sander and would be afraid to use one at this point in the process.

So I should go back down to bare wood and then back up though the grits again? Anyway to tell if I have gotten all the marks out without going through the staining process again?

[Phil Phelps]

As Flip Wilson used to say, "What you see is what you get". You won't be able to cover that up with stain. You could have previewed that by wiping mineral spirits on it. It wouldn't have been that dark, but it would have shown up darker where the stain has now spotlighted that area. Without personally seeing the wood, I'm not sure that sanding would eliminate the problem as I'm not sure it's planer marks or characteristics of that particular board.

[Jimmy Williams]

Nature does some funny things but these marks are too symmetrical to be natural. They are definitely from the planner.

I didn't show the other piece that turned out pretty much the same way and is from a different board. I had wiped the boards with denatured alcohol before applying the shellac. Wouldn't that have darkened the wood like the MS and shown me the marks at that point?

[Phil Phelps]

Jimmy, even water will accentuate flaws but not "everything". Staining can be very tricky and some woods are more troublesome than others. I'd do what Faust suggested and you will need a belt sander. If they are planer marks, whether knife or compression indentation, sanding will remove these flaws. It's a small setback and could have been worse.

[Frederick Gross]

I would suggest removing the trouble spots with a card scraper if you have one. It would probably be a little quicker than going through the various grades of sandpaper.

[Rob Young]

I would suggest removing the trouble spots with a card scraper if you have one. It would probably be a little quicker than going through the various grades of sandpaper.

+1 on a card scraper or cabinet scraper (Stanley 80, etc). Card scrapers are just about the simplest beast there is but you do need to practice a little bit with sharpening them.

In this case, you can take a bit of a short cut. Just use a mill file to raise the burr on the card (see one of the zillion posts and videos on card scraper sharpening, just stop after dressing the edge with the mill file, you will have a burr). This burr isn't the best you can make but for quickly leveling the ripples and removing stain/finish it will do the job.

Then go back with your last couple grits (150 / 180 to start) and clean up the fuzzy from the rough burr.

Oh, and pick up some asbestos thumbs while you are out. :)

[Jimmy Williams]

I like the card scraper idea. I've been looking for a reason to buy some of those. Going to make a lunch run to Rockler and pick one up. Thanks for the input guys.

[glenn bradley]

I'm with Frederick. I have had the case where I went systematically through the grits on a piece and just plain missed a spot. I hit it with oil or stain and "whoops, there it is". I have had good success using a card scraper on the area in question and then repeating the final sanding grit to assure consistency before re-coloring.

[Prashun Patel]

Beware too that scraping can leave tiny undulations as well, and can follow the planer marks also.

Personally, I'd use a hand plane - like a #4. That'll keep the surface flat.

Or you can just resand and then use ms and raking light to find spots you missed. I wouldn't go down to 60 on a ROS, though. It's too tempting to aggressively grind out those spots and to leave undulations. I'd just use 100g on a long sanding block.

[Rob Young]

Beware too that scraping can leave tiny undulations as well, and can follow the planer marks also.

Personally, I'd use a hand plane - like a #4. That'll keep the surface flat.

Or you can just resand and then use ms and raking light to find spots you missed. I wouldn't go down to 60 on a ROS, though. It's too tempting to aggressively grind out those spots and to leave undulations. I'd just use 100g on a long sanding block.

The card scraper can dish and leave other marks if you aren't careful. Since you have some grain independence, go at an angle to the planer marks to start. Long strokes, raking light for inspection and patience are the keys.

The Stanley 80, 12 and 112 are good alternatives and easy to use. A #4 or 4-12 as you suggest would also work great but since the OP sounds like more of a power tool guy, starting with a simple card scraper might be easier. Cheap, easy to learn the technique and reasonably impervious to grain direction. A good transition from working with a ROS all the time. THEN we give him the swift kick down the slippery slope...

[Chris Padilla]

Get into the habit of wiping down your projects with Mineral Spirits. As Phil said, it is a good way to highlight or preview what the wood will look like under a finish. In fact, after every sanding grit, you should wipe down the wood as it will let you know if you're ready to move on to the next grit.

[Scott Holmes]

What I'am getting from the OP 's comments is that he got the top smooth. FLAT and smooth are NOT the same.

Also going from 60 grit to 120 is too much of a jump to get good results without way too much sanding with the 120. 60, then 80, then 100, then 120, then 150, 180, 220. Sanding finer then 220 on bare wood is a waste of sandpaper and it could cause burnishing which will produce irregular finishing results.

You can skip one grit; but skipping 2 or more is counter-productive.

RO sanders are notoriuos for making wood smooth but they tend to follow the flow of the wood, thus they skim over the planer marks and the early vs late wood. They don't make it FLAT; they might be able to keep it flat.

Belt or drum sanders and hard pad sanders flatten the wood.

[Tony Bilello]

.The desk is made out of soft maple and was sanded #60, #120, #150, then sprayed with 1:3 shellac to alcohol mix and then lightly sanded again to #320 before the dye stain went on. ...Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

In addition to the other ideas of belt sanding/card scraping, wiping with mineral spirits etc., dont you think that going from 60 to 120 grit is quite a jump? Normally unless the surface is really really bad, I start with 100 grit. If the surface looks pretty good, I start with 120 grit. In either case, if you start with 60 grit, which is almost like driveway gravel, I would think you would have to spend some time with 80 grit to get the 60 grit marks out. Then the 100 grit would take a while to get the 80 grit marks out. Once you get past the 120 grit, you progress much more rapidly.

[Matt Day]

As others have said, be careful with the card scrapers - they have their own potential problems if not used properly. I'd pick up a belt sander as others have suggested, then follow with the ROS. I personally haven't used the belt sander in this type of application, but I will note it for future use.

Good luck!

[Tony Bilello]

I only use a belt sander to 'flatten' a top. Keep in mind that belt sanders were designed for removing a lot of wood quickly. It is not made for finesse.
If you have a cheap belt sander, you probably have better than a 95% chance of digging in one side or another and ruining your top. The ONLY
belt sander I use or would even consider using is a 4 X 24 Porter Cable.
It is very heavy and very stable. Also note that when belt sanding, don't keep the sander in line with the grain. Keep it slightly kicked off normal but move in the direction of the grain. For boaters or pilots, we call it a 'crab angle'. This will in effect give ou a 'wider' cutting path. Keep your body position such that you have total control. This is a very heavy and very powerful machine and can easily 'heel-in' or get away from you. Done be scared, just have respect for it.

[Jimmy Williams]

I went with the card scraper solution and after several tries, I was finally able to get a bur on the card. I practiced on a sample board until I had it working right and then moved to the desk top. I was finally able to get the ridges out and then washed it with MS to make sure. Then went back over with #120 and then #150. The dye stain is drying right now but the scraper did the trick. Thanks to everyone who suggested that.

I would like to say, in my own defense, that I went back and looked at the sand paper I was using and found that I started at #80 and not #60 as I stated earlier. So I went #80, #120, and then #150. Sprayed a wash layer of shellac and then sanded to #320. I'll add #100 to my schedule (or may start there next time).

Thanks again for the help everyone!

[Andy McCormick]

I think you have a bad board. It almost looks like sticker type marks. I dont think you will ever get the discolor out. Andy

[Chris Hudson42]

Hi Jimmy,

This suggestion is somewhat drastic perhaps - if you try any of it - try it on a scrap piece of soft maple first!

For years I sanded my table tops. Now I've switched to planing with no sanding at all - and am very pleased.

Here briefly is what I do:

I use the usual 12" surface planer to start for the individual boards.

After glueup, its obviously too wide for the planer. I instead use a Bosch 3365 single-blade electric planer. (Its better than the more expensive 1594 - and unfortunately I own both).

You will need to 'ease' the corner edges of the Bosch 'woodrazor' blade to avoid digging plane tracks. Do that with a diamond hone.

Now remove any excess glue on the glue lines with a card scraper first. Then work the top diagonally with the 3365 until everything looks level and flat (it won't be flat - the 3365 is too short - but most of the time this makes no difference).

The Bosch will often leave some milling tracks of its own. Finish off with a good handplane and sharp blade - I sprung for the Lee Valley Veritas 'bevel up' 604 1/2 smoother (larger one) and am very pleased. You only need to remove the Bosch marks - I find just a bit of hand planing with the grain does that. You are now ready to finish. No sanding needed.

Now from where you are:

You never are supposed to 'plane after sanding' - sanding grit left on the top will quickly destroy your handplane blade edge.

So I think you would need to start with the 3365 - and if you destroy the $6 'woodrazor' blade - so what. (You may not - its carbide).

Then finish with a good handplane. If you are worried about flatness - you could go with a longer jointer rather than the smoother - but I usually leave my stuff smooth but not necessarily flat.

Next, as others have said, 'test' the state of the top by wiping on mineral spirits, naptha, turps, etc (NOT water). I do - mostly for a preview - as I always washcoat with shellac before applying the final finish. Usually evaporative NC Lacquer (i.e Deft Brushing Clear Finish Gloss - lacquer) (for one because I can easily dissolve it off with lacquer thinner if I don't get what I like).

Is the rest of the desk stained soft Maple, or something else? I ask because I usually avoid all staining and just go with the look of the wood.

Planing gives such a great looking result, you might consider leaving the top unstained at this point and let the wood show thru.

Good Luck!

Regards,
Chris

P.S. - if you decide to buy a 3365, make sure it says 'Made in Switzerland' on the box. These days too many previously great tools are being changed from jems to junk as manufacturing is transferred to China, Mexico, etc. etc. The name and numbers stay the same - the tool is different - and junk (Footprint handplanes, Stanley Block Planes, you name it...)

[Gene Crain]

Make it as painless as possible...take the top to a shop with a widebelt sander. Lesson learned. Next step, buy some new shop tools.

[Rick Markham]

I wouldn't want to risk using a smoother plane at this point, he has already used an abrasive and risks nicking the blade of a plane, which is simply creating more work for yourself in the end. ;)