The main reason to have a shaper [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Steve Griffin

03-11-2010, 10:22 PM

My shaper is one of the most important tools in the shop, but I use it for something which many in the hobby or business don't: cleaning up and squaring edges. Darn near every piece of wood in my shop goes through the shaper, and I can't imagine not having it. My setup is hardly new, and most bigger shops use a similar arrangement, but I'm constantly amazed that not everyone with a shaper is using it for this very important task.

In the bad old days, I would put in my sharpest, nicest table saw blade to cut wood to width, and then carefully sand the saw marks away, hoping to not loose a flat and square surface. Or sometimes I would set the jointer with razor sharp blades for a .032 skim pass and go slow and careful to get a nice square edge.

But with a well set up shaper, I now just stuff a board in and out comes board with a nice shiney smooth edge which is perfectly square. Maybe a little 220 hand sand is needed at most. Faceframes, glue-ups, door parts all are worlds easier when you have a perfect edge to work with.

With all the help I have received from Sawmill Creek experts, I thought that this tip would be a good payback.

Next post will be pictures and explanations--got to take care of our 1.5 year old.....

-Steve

Steve Griffin

03-11-2010, 10:45 PM

The good news is, that setting up a shaper for edging operations only takes a couple hours and about $30.

The basic idea is to use a straight edge cutter and an outboard fence and climb cut with a power feeder. I typically take off 1/16 inch on each edge of the board. The fence is adjusted to the exact width you want by indexing with two steel rulers mounted on each side. When starting with roughsawn wood, I normally joint one edge and rip my wood to 3/16 wider than final width. Then, after face jointing and planing, I take one more pass on the jointer to take off 1/16 of an inch--(a little extra chance to insure a straight edge), and then off to the shaper to take off the final 1/16" from each edge.

Hopefully the pictures show my method well, and no doubt there are many other ways to make a fence or index system. My fence is 1/2" thick, so I can still run 5/8" thick boards without getting in the way of the feeder rollers. The metals rules are taken from cheap combo squares and set in a groove in hardwood. Since you will be so delighted with this system you will be running miles of wood through it, the metal rules need to be set perfectly so as not mar the wood.

Next post:If you still are not sold on this idea, I have a lazy mans method to get the same results so you can think about it further, though it has annoying drawbacks.

-Steve

Jamie Buxton

03-11-2010, 10:53 PM

You're using a shaper as a jointer. Why is the shaper better at edge jointing than a jointer?

Jason Yeager

03-11-2010, 10:55 PM

Thanks for posting this, what a great idea, now I need another shaper.....

Jason

Steve Griffin

03-11-2010, 10:57 PM

Now one shop I have visited uses a variation of this system, which I find inferior, but has the advantage of less time and money to modify your shaper.

Basically he omits the outboard fence and sets up the stock fences to remove exactly 1/16 of an inch, sort of like a jointer. The wood needs to be ripped to EXACTLY plus 1/8" and the fence needs to be set EXACTLY for 1/16" wood removal. Needless to say, there are a couple opportunities for a little error to creep in.

But the worse thing is if you need to use the shaper for something else, you are faced with a somewhat tedious task of setting up the stock fences again for edging operations. With my setup, I can use the shaper for anything else in the world, and in 2 minutes return it to edging operation mode. Basically the stock fences are just glorified dust containers, and I just need to make sure the rollers roll in the right direction with about 1/2" angle towards the outboard fence.

Hope this helps someone out a little. -Steve

Steve Griffin

03-11-2010, 11:02 PM

You're using a shaper as a jointer. Why is the shaper better at edge jointing than a jointer?

For the same reason you need a planer with a jointer. The jointer simply gives you a straight line, an edging setup on a shaper gives you a perfect width. Plus, not to question your manhood, but a 4 roller shaper compressing and feeding your wood in climb cut direction will result in a much more square and clean edge than you can get with even the best jointer. Not to mention WAY faster if you care about speed.

-Steve

David DeCristoforo

03-11-2010, 11:10 PM

"Why is the shaper better at edge jointing than a jointer?"

It's only "better" in certain situations. Like if you need to edge joint a lot of sticks (especially if they are wide) in which case it's much easier work to joint them laying flat rather than on edge and much easier on the hands/arms/shoulders/back to have a power feeder! Steve's method for running stock between an outboard fence and the cutter is also great in certain situations but not all. For example, I mill all of my stock for cope and stick door frames this way, sizing, jointing and profiling all in one pass. But this is suicide to attempt this without a feeder, especially if you want to climb cut. This technique is limited however to relatively narrow stock unless you have a really huge shaper table.

Steve Griffin

03-11-2010, 11:16 PM

Mine is a basic 3hp grizzly shaper. And yes, I use the same outboard fence and feeder for doing various edge profiles, grooves and even 45 degree bevel.

I disagree that it is only a good method for numerous pieces or thin pieces. My modest shaper can handle boards up to about 12" wide and I will go to it to for even a single board which needs to go to final width. It's faster than a pass on the table saw.

-Steve

Chris Padilla

03-11-2010, 11:20 PM

Interesting stuff. A shaper is one of those tools that most hobbyists likely do not have. I have friends who have very well-equipped* shops and yet shapers are absent in all of them. Router table...sure...but no shaper!

*-Of course, those with shapers may disagree with my definition here.... :)

John Terefenko

03-12-2010, 12:10 AM

Todays router tables and bigger routers have put the shaper in the corner where mine is. One day I am going to unload that hunk of metal. The cutters are too darn expensive. Jointer will put a nice edge on any board and if you want you can use the router table. Maybe larger furniture shops find more use for them. To each his own as they say I guess.

Rod Sheridan

03-12-2010, 8:28 AM

I use an outboard fence and feeder for the same sort of tasks that David has mentioned, such as profiling and sizing in one pass.

I also use mine when running small widths, since the feeder is the only thing in the danger zone.

I partially agree with Chris, many hobbyists don't have a shaper, they have a router table. I'm the converse hobbyist, I have a shaper, no router.

I find that since I only make things out of solid wood, the shaper is the least expensive tooling option, as I use HSS knives in an insert head.

Regards, Rod.

John Coloccia

03-12-2010, 9:03 AM

I always thought the main reason for a shaper is to toss around pieces of wood that are too heavy to throw by hand.

Rod Sheridan

03-12-2010, 9:05 AM

Well, that's the second reason.

The first reason is so that we can tease router owners:D

Regards, Rod.

Karl Brogger

03-12-2010, 9:15 AM

I've considered setting up a shaper in this manner. I use a planer for sizing all of my material. Rip it an 1/8" big, take off a 1/16 on both sides. The advantage of doing it with shaper is obvious in that support on two sides of the material just about guarantees a square edge, and having the feeder push away from the cutter would all but eliminate snipe. Another advantage would be that most feeders can be set at some rediculous slow feed rates, but that also takes time.

Comes down to time though. I do think you could get a better product doing it this way, but when I size material with the planer, I typically run five pieces at a time through. Unless I only need one stick.

Not a bad idea, just not realistic in most smaller production enviroments. A shop I used to work for used two heads of a five head moulder for sizing material, but that was a single piece, single pass operation, and had some rediculous feed rates, yet still did a very good job. It was also a two man job, it would be impossible to feed/stack with one person the material went though so fast.

Chris Padilla

03-12-2010, 11:04 AM

I find that since I only make things out of solid wood, the shaper is the least expensive tooling option, as I use HSS knives in an insert head.

Regards, Rod.

What do you have, Rod? Can you share a few pics? I'm very curious about your insert head. Do you make your own knives?

Louie Ballis

03-12-2010, 11:34 AM

I always thought the main reason for a shaper is to toss around pieces of wood that are too heavy to throw by hand.

I like this

Steve Griffin

03-12-2010, 12:13 PM

Be afraid, be very afraid.

In the last 15 years I have been using a shaper for climb cut edging operations, I've thrown wood out of my shaper exactly zero times.

Also, if safety really is important to you, I would argue that a power feeder on a shaper is 10 times safer than using either table saw or jointer.

-Steve

Rod Sheridan

03-12-2010, 1:07 PM

Hi Chris I have a steel cutter head from General International.

It is about 100mm diameter, and takes knives from Dimar, CMT, Felder etc.

It doesn't have chip limitors so it's a MEC feed device only.

There are many manufacturers of this sort of product (see above) and they all have locating pins and wedges making them safer than the older head designs. Many have chip limitors.

I have only made one pair of knives for a baseboard job for a friend.

regards, Rod.

P.S. Here's a link to a typical seletion of knives........Rod

http://dimar-canada.com/pdf/MultiProfileCutters3.pdf

Jeff Duncan

03-12-2010, 3:54 PM

Steve Griffin

03-12-2010, 5:52 PM

I have 2 shapers and 2 jointers. When I'm running stock it needs to go quickly and setting up a shaper to do edges isn't in the cards. My jointers are made for this and they do an excellent job at it. One edge is going to get hit when I'm milling up from rough stock. The second edge is always getting ripped on the tablesaw anyway. Then usually it's either getting profiled as a door part, or if it's staying square for a FF, I'll run a stack at a time through the widebelt and kill 2 birds with one stone.
If it works for you then by all means stay with it. But for me it would be an extra un-necessary step.
good luck,
JeffD

Two passes through a shaper with a fast power feeder VS a pass on the jointer with your bare hands and a table saw or widebelt sander pass. I'd love to have that race with anyone, followed by a quality rating.

Oh well, I certainly learned my lesson trying to share what I think is one of the greatest tips I can offer.

-Steve

Brad Shipton

03-12-2010, 6:55 PM

Steve, I totally agree with you. I love the accuracy of the outboard fence, but I am not in a production shop like Jeff, so I dont have to worry so much about time. Peter first suggested this to me a few years ago, and now I hardly ever shape any parts without one.

Brad

Mike Heidrick

03-12-2010, 7:32 PM

Steve, I love the pipe clamp fence idea.

Ever think abbout moving to a different head (euro style) with shear cutting knives?

Ben West

03-12-2010, 7:36 PM

Keep the tips coming, Steve! This is quite useful to me and something I'd never considered. I will definitely be trying it in the future.

Peter Quinn

03-12-2010, 7:53 PM

Steve, I use a back fence for lots of things, but S$S isn't really one of them. Big production shops have S4S machines, like a 4 head molder, so thats basically a shaper with split fence and one as back fence, and they do a great job. Our shop makes S4S for others on a 6 head molder, but our own stuff gets flattened for real, so thats out.

I agree that you could use a shaper as you state but your insistence that it is the best , fastest, highest quality method I take issue with. I can run FF stock on edge through the spiral head planer, ganged 4 at a time in two or three batches per pass, and I will be triple the best feed rate that your shaper can possibly deliver with a surface quality so fine you would think I had hand planed it with sharp #4. No tear out. I can also gang sand on edge to a certain width(maybe 4"?) through the wide belt, and thats a pretty decent surface quality too. The feet per minute rate is a bit slower, but I'm running four pieces in three groups staggered per pass, so twelve pieces every ten seconds, and with rolling carts I can catch for myself too. You want to take that race? You lose, every time. It takes a few minutes to edge sand al the FF stock for a fairly large kitchen, and it will dimension precisely too. When stock goes past 4" I admit it becomes unfeasible, and your method surely wins.

And quality? I simply don't believe you expect anybody that has climb cut anything to believe that is the highest surface quality available. Sure, it keeps chip out minimized, but it leaves a some what fuzzy surface by nature, just not the highest quality surface. Leaves you sanding fuzz till the cows come home. And if you speed up enough to set the land speed record, you start getting those pesky knife marks that are almost as much fun to sand out as saw marks. I'd rather run a bigger head with a shear angle or a spiral head like Byrd or Amana than climb anything I didn't have to.

All that being said, for my little home shop I have done this regularly, as I have no 24" Italian spiral head planer, no wide belt, and no 6 head molder in my basement. I even bought a nice Garniga insert head this winter from Laguna, and a 6Z stagger tooth head with shear angle with this operation in mind. I find I am more likely to use the back fence for inset door parts where the accuracy is more critical to me. My back fence, by the way, took less than 5 minutes to make (chunk of QSWO with sand paper stuck to it and two big clamps), it sets up in seconds , and I micro adjust with a few taps of tiny dead blow. A set of calipers and a few sneaky taps, very low tech, very accurate. Cheaper than an Aigner.:rolleyes:

David DeCristoforo

03-12-2010, 8:06 PM

"Oh well, I certainly learned my lesson trying to share what I think is one of the greatest tips I can offer. "

There is no reason to get offended because some people feel that edge jointing may not necessarily be "The main reason to have a shaper..." for them. Nor does it mean that no one appreciates your input. A thick skin can be a real asset when you participate in internet forums.

Mark Bolton

03-12-2010, 8:52 PM

Steve,
We often edge material this way in our shop and I think its a great technique for a small shop.

While its interesting to hear and a lot of good information can be gleaned, I dont find it particularly constructive to hear someone bragging about what they can do with several hundred thousand dollars of shop space, equipment, and tooling, which is provided to them (and bankrolled) by their employer.

My only complaint about this method (shaper method) is the length of the fence. We work with a lot of long stock and having to handle a long fence when edging/jointing with this technique is a real chore. That said, for us it is still the best for wide and long material in a small shop.

By far the best setup I have seen for a small/med. shop and long lengths is at a buddy of ours shop. He is a one man shop and produces wide pine flooring. 30" wide X 16' long boards are not uncommon. His setup uses an auction purchased over arm router with a 6" dia. x 3" tall cutter. He has a shop built bench/table that uses aluminum extrusions for a fixed fence which is the total length (infeed 16' and outfeed 16') of the process. He simply sets the overarm at the required dimension, places a board against the fence (crown out) and feeds. Two stock feeders run the stock by the router. Flip the board over, reset the over arm, feed again, done.

We have often installed his floors and see glue line quality joints on 24"-30" wide by 16' long boards butting up to any other board.

If we had the space in our small shop, this would easily be my sole method for edging and jointing any material long enough to catch the two feeders period. Extremely short stock (less than 12") would be the only exception.

Mark

Steve Griffin

03-12-2010, 9:03 PM

While its interesting to hear and a lot of good information can be gleaned, I dont find it particularly constructive to hear someone bragging about what they can do with several hundred thousand dollars of shop space, equipment, and tooling, which is provided to them (and bankrolled) by their employer.

Mark

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm the "employer". I've owned and run my own very successful business for 10 years. The shaper takes up about 10 square feet of space, sandwiched between the planer and jointer in a 830 square foot shop.

I have no intention to brag about my humongous shop and it's equipment. I only hoped that by taking the time to post some pictures and setup advice, one or two folks would find it helpful. Instead, I found about 12 people who have absolutely zero experience with this technique posting negativity.

-Steve

Mark Bolton

03-12-2010, 9:06 PM

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm the "employer". I've owned and run my own very successful business for 10 years. The shaper takes up about 10 square feet of space, sandwiched between the planer and jointer in a 830 square foot shop.

I have no intention to brag about my humongous shop and it's equipment. I only hoped that by taking the time to post some pictures and setup advice, one or two folks would find it helpful. Instead, I found about 12 people who have absolutely zero experience with this technique posting negativity.

-Steve

Steve,
You weren't my reference with regards to employer/employee. I am aware that you are the owner. I guess my reply read wrong. I was actually agreeing with you and merely dreaming of what I would have if my shop were bigger.

Mark

johnny means

03-12-2010, 11:49 PM

You're using a shaper as a jointer. Why is the shaper better at edge jointing than a jointer?

Actually, he is using a shaper as a very small capacity planer. This technique would not straighten a curved board, but parallel the reference edge. I could see this being useful in certain situations, such as trying to shave a bit off of a bunch of small finished pieces that were already cut to final length. I could not see doing this as often as the OP does, seems to me the jointer and planer do the same job and are always set up for it.

fRED mCnEILL

03-13-2010, 1:17 AM

I don't have a shaper so I joint one edge and use my Forrest blade on the table saw to size the board. No tearout, no fuzz, just a nice square edge for gluing.
But then I don't run a commercial shop, just do things for myself.

Fred Mc

Johnnyy Johnson

03-13-2010, 7:30 AM

Actually, he is using a shaper as a very small capacity planer. This technique would not straighten a curved board, but parallel the reference edge. I could see this being useful in certain situations, such as trying to shave a bit off of a bunch of small finished pieces that were already cut to final length. I could not see doing this as often as the OP does, seems to me the jointer and planer do the same job and are always set up for it.

Johnny...I dont think Steve is trying to straighten a curved board. The board has already been through the TS. :)

Steve..I always use my shaper, but not your method. I take the board and joint the face. Then I use a 8 foot clamp and tool guide and get my straight edges on the TS. Once the edges have been sawed straight I use a straight bit on the shaper and just make one pass through the shaper on each side with the jointed side down. I use the stock feeded on the shaper. At glue up I have very little pressure on the clamps because of the good fit. The main reason I dont use the jointer is that I am not very smooth pushing the board through. If I had mastered the edge jointing on the jointer then most likely I would be using it. I think the best method is the one that work best for the woodworker. In my case it is by far the shaper.
Thanks
Johnny

Johnnyy Johnson

03-13-2010, 7:37 AM

Steve..I always use my shaper, but not your method. I take the board and joint the face. Then I use a 8 foot clamp and tool guide and get my straight edges on the TS. Once the edges have been sawed straight I use a straight bit on the shaper and just make one pass through the shaper on each side with the jointed side down. I use the stock feeded on the shaper. At glue up I have very little pressure on the clamps because of the good fit. The main reason I dont use the jointer is that I am not very smooth pushing the board through. If I had mastered the edge jointing on the jointer then most likely I would be using it. I think the best method is the one that work best for the woodworker. In my case it is by far the shaper.
Thanks
Johnny

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/progress.gif

Alan Schaffter

03-13-2010, 12:58 PM

The main reason I use my shaper is that it is soooo much quieter than a router table! :D:D

Cameron Reddy

03-14-2010, 6:38 PM

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4432834065_273cdbc01b_o.jpg

Any more questions?

Cameron Reddy

David DeCristoforo

03-14-2010, 6:48 PM

"Any more questions?..."

Well... yeah... What's that little yellow thing?

Peter Quinn

03-14-2010, 8:23 PM

Steve,
While its interesting to hear and a lot of good information can be gleaned, I don't find it particularly constructive to hear someone bragging about what they can do with several hundred thousand dollars of shop space, equipment, and tooling, which is provided to them (and bankrolled) by their employer.
Mark

By someone, I'll guess you meant me? So I'll respond by saying that I was reading the post and found it interesting (still do), but by the third time somebody wrote in to suggest that as a professional they prefer another method and Steve started talking defensively about having races, I started scratching my head. Did you read the posts? I'm bragging? The main reason to have a shaper is to make S4S, and climb cutting is the fastest, safest, cleanest cut available? Really? Perhaps the caveat "the best method available to me currently" would clear things up for a dufuss like me? I sort of like shaping wood with my shaper, and sometimes I like to make shapes other than square edge. Sorry if that makes me a jerk. Yes, the main reason I have a shaper is to shape. Hmmm.

Yes, my employer has a big shop with lots of toys that I enjoy using and don't have at home, but even in my own peanuts side job operation, I won't climb cut things I don't have to, and thats almost everything. It seems here on the creek every other guy has a Byrd head at this point, and even I have a reasonably decent drum sander that will process FF material on edge. An amana spiral jointing head for shaper is less than $200, so thats a cheap clean option too. When you start pronouncing that your method is the best for skinnin cats, you may find some who disagree with you regardless of the size of the operation.

Everyone with a shaper should understand the back fence technique, it was a revelation to me when I first learned it, and I think Steve should get props IMHO for posting a nice pictorial on the subject. But for the record there are other ways to achieve these results (pin router for instance, really cool idea, sounds like a fantastic set up, be sure to tell your friend Steve's idea is better though).

johnny means

03-14-2010, 8:45 PM

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4432834065_273cdbc01b_o.jpg

Any more questions?

Cameron Reddy

Is someone making up for some inadequacy?;)

Mark Bolton

03-14-2010, 9:03 PM

By someone, I'll guess you meant me?

Peter,
While I knew it likely would, I didnt want to ruffle your feathers as I honestly respect and have appreciated your knowledge on countless occasions.

My gut feeling is that for whatever reasons, perhaps the end of the week and people were punchy, or whatever, this thread fell into a bit of a testosterone soup so to speak and I was merely commenting that the way "I" read this thread was that the OP was aiming to show his method for "cleaning up and squaring edges". Not jointing, not production, just a fast way to clean up edges (saw marks and squaring) using a feeder equipped tool for speed and consistency.

The thread evolved (or devolved) into a commentary about jointing and production methods as opposed to that of a small one man shop. I also contributed to the diversion of the original intent of the thread (in my opinion).

I understand that you were commenting on the "Race" and the concept of "best". I guess I was trying to say we cant compare a Lamborghini with a Fiat. Whats best with two Lambo's head to head is not whats best for two one man shops running head to head most of which dont even have a wide belt.

Again, I apologize as looking at things selfishly I have learned a tremendous amount from your posts alone.

It just seemed to me that Steve was trying to do a good thing and getting pounced on.

Mark

Mark Bolton

03-14-2010, 9:07 PM

(pin router for instance, really cool idea, sounds like a fantastic set up, be sure to tell your friend Steve's idea is better though).

I replied here separately as I would like some clarification on this. I am not sure I am on the same page with you with regards to the "pin router"? I am not sure how Steve's setup could even remotely achieve what I mentioned though I am more than interested.

Mark

Peter Quinn

03-15-2010, 9:44 AM

My apologies Mark. I guess I am again guilty of losing perspective and taking things the wrong way. Thank you for steering the discussion back in a cvil direction.

I was curious about your description of the overarm router, which I know as a 'pin router', for wide plank flooring production. Am I picturing the right machine? I wondered how the width is set. Does the head move on your friends over arm unit, or does the fence adjust? I fear I am not picturing this correctly.

We make a fair amount of wide plank these days, mostly for export. We have been using a two shaper set up, one is set up with a shop made extended table and steel back fence. There are index pins in the back fence plate that drop into holes in the table and allow or a quick and rigid set up. The groove is cut on a traditional split fence, the tongue and final width is cut off the back fence. The reliefs are put in on a large old planer with knives ground for the purpose and guide rails on the table like an over grown W&H. Its a slow process relative to a through molder, but a 24" through molder is not going to happen presently.

Cameron Reddy

03-15-2010, 11:13 AM

Is someone making up for some inadequacy?;)

Johnny! I resemble that comment!

:)

Cameron Reddy

Mark Bolton

03-15-2010, 4:55 PM

I was curious about your description of the overarm router

No need to apologize I shouldnt have been cryptic.

This setup is a large motor (am guessing 3HP, 3PH or so) on an arm similar to that of a radial arm saw but not meant to slide in operation. The arm is a pretty large round tube similar to what you would see on a stock feeder but much larger. The tube has a scale running its length. The motor is out on the end of the tube with a vertical shaft (large casting). Dont know the diameter but shaper spindle size. He runs shaper style cutters. Fence is fixed aluminum extrusions with adjustments every few inches (for truing the fence dead straight).

As I mentioned, he simply places the board against the fence, crown out (away), and sets the overarm to the board width. After running the board the overarm is then set to the narrowest dimension of the board (usually somewhere near the mid point). Flip it, run again.

This is by no means a production setup though he can run several thousand feet with help. The only thing I was mentioning (which was my diversion of the thread) is what other people replied, that straightening is directly dependent on the fence length (using any form of back fence). My bad as the thread was about cleaning up and squaring.

The setup the buddy of ours is using is the identical process to steve's simply using a 32' fence.Other than steve moving the fence rather than the cutter

Working with a lot of rough lumber I have often thought of an edging station similar to this that would have a pre-saw of sorts running just in front of the cutter head with a splitter behind it. This way when you have a board with a lot of crown, the saw blade would cut the bulk away just leaving 1/16" for the cutter head to surface. It would be a one stop shop so to speak, edge, joint, dimension, all in one pass per edge.

Anyway, his main goal with this setup was perfectly jointed (dead straight) wide flooring. These are all just square edge floors (old worldy) and his results are impressive). The joints of course open and close throughout the year.

Mark

Tony Bilello

03-15-2010, 8:52 PM

And I always thought the most important thing a shaper was for was - for shaping.

Steve Griffin

03-15-2010, 9:12 PM

And I always thought the most important thing a shaper was for was - for shaping.

A super smooth, perfectly square, quickly produced edge at perfect widths on my wood products counts as a "shape" to me.

I by no means implied that this setup was for everyone--small hobby shops can get by just fine with basic techniques, and larger production outfits would find my setup primitive. All I can say is in my 30 years of woodworking, half of it has had such a shaper edging system in daily use and I find it an invaluable improvement to my shop.

Those who have a shaper hanging around anyway, it's worth giving it a try. Worse come to worse if you take the time to set up an outboard fence and a measuring system like my metal rulers, you might just find it handy for conventional edge shaping tasks. If I need a 1/4" groove put in a board for example, I just set the fence at final width minus depth of groove and don't even bother with a test cut.

Thanks for all the input guys! It's nice to try to contribute to Sawmill Creek, considering all the stuff I have learned here.

-Steve

Travis Porter

03-15-2010, 10:09 PM

Interesting thread and posting. I had never considered using my shaper to dimension stock, but it does make a lot of sense.

Thanks for posting

Keith Weber

03-16-2010, 10:03 AM

Steve Griffin

03-16-2010, 10:48 AM

I don't get why you feel the need to go through all of this work to get a smooth edge on a board. I joint my first edge on the jointer, so I've got a straight and smooth edge. The opposite edge is cut to width on the cabinet saw with a Woodworker II blade. It takes but 3 seconds to set the fence to width, and the edge is straight and smooth enough for me to cut myself on the edges, or go straight to glue ups. I don't see myself getting any advantage out of your method. Maybe you need a better table saw or your best saw blade needs sharpening if it's leaving marks?

It takes me 4 seconds to set the shaper fence, so you got me beat by a second. But then, I only have one table saw, so I need to add 3 minutes to change the rough rip blade to a expensive rip blade--a blade which constantly needs sharpening.

I've used the Woodworker II on high end table saws even better than mine. I still see saw marks which still take time to sand out. I do high end cabinets and furniture, so saw marks are not acceptable.

Also, it's quite possible you also have better jointer. If for example I joint 100 linear feet of hard maple, I will have a number of chip outs on the edge. I will have zero chipouts climb cutting on the shaper.

My initial jointer pass is very quick, and I don't worry about blades being a little dull--it's simply a straight line tool, since I know I can clean up the edge later.

-Steve

Cameron Reddy

03-16-2010, 11:28 AM

I'm surprised that anyone without a power feeder on the table saw can get a glue ready joint. I can't keep that kind of even pressure and feed for the length of a board longer than a foot or so. I get much better edge results on my shaper/feeder, though I've yet to use that setup to edge material for jointing. I always go to the hand plane and work a spring joint per Mr. Charlesworth.

Karl Brogger

03-16-2010, 12:26 PM

Steve Griffin

03-16-2010, 12:39 PM

Even in a non-production setting I don't think the cost of time outweighs the benifit on this one. Like I said before, I run 4-5 piece at a time through the planer to get the kerf marks out, and to size the material. I do agree that you will get a better product doing it this way, but it'd take a long time to push 100 pieces through a shaper one at a time, for a marginal gain in quality.

For a big batch of equal width product which isn't very wide, you might be absolutely correct in that you can save some feeding time using the planer.

I've never gotten good results with a single 6" board run on edge in a planer, and if you have muliple sizes and can't gang them together, then you have zero time savings. Nevermind the quality issue--my planer occasionally chips out and leaves a little chatter marks. I really dislike adding to my sanding time....

Everyone thinks making a trip to the shaper is an extra step. It's not--it's subtracting other steps.

Thanks for your thoughts though!

-Steve

Ben West

03-16-2010, 12:57 PM

This system makes a lot of sense to me. For about 4 years, I had operated a "bandsaw-centric" shop, and have done all of my dimensioning with a jointer, planer, bandsaw, and miter saw or Festool TS55; during this time, I had no tablesaw at all.

Using this system, I cut boards to rough length with a miter saw or my Festool TS5 and then to rough width with my bandsaw. After jointing one face and edge, I would use the planer for final dimensioning to thickness and, by running boards through the planer on edge, to final width.

This system worked well but I decided I needed a tablesaw; a couple months ago, I bought a Powermatic PM2000 and equipped it with a Freud Fusion. It's very nice, and I'm sure it will be useful in many ways. However, for this basic stock dimensioning, it is only slightly quicker than my old system, and the finish of the edge is not as good.

I can only imagine the quality of cut from this system. I had thought about picking up a Powermatic shaper sometime in the next year, and this may be enough to push me over the edge.

Jeff Duncan

03-16-2010, 1:44 PM

Steve, I'm not sure how you think your method would be faster than mine? Let me back up and run through my process. I put together a cutlist for a stack of parts. I pull them from the lumber racks and rough cut to length. Then a run 1 face 1 edge on the jointer, thickness on the planer, rip a bit oversize on the tablesaw. From here you want to go to the shaper to clean the edges.....I don't. Door parts go to the shaper to get profiled to finish size. FF parts go through the widebelt in bunches to get sanded to finished dimension. Any way I look at it your method is an extra step that takes extra time.
If your a hobby shop that happens to have a shaper and powerfeed and doesn't mind taking extra time then I guess it could be beneficial?
Also do you use your shaper for other tasks or is it just for straight edges? B/C you use 4 seconds as your time to set the fence, but it takes significantly longer to change and set the knives and power feed. I have 2 shapers and change knives/cutters very frequently. So it would certainly be an additional step and additional time.
At the end of the day if it works for you then that's all that counts. In my shop it wouldn't make any sense. Different strokes.....
good luck,
JeffD

Steve Griffin

03-16-2010, 4:41 PM

Thanks Jeff,
We actually have a mostly similar work flow. Though I usually rough rip everything, rather than cut to rough length first, so as not lose edge or face flatness if you rip last. (if you joint one edge and face of a 8" board and later cut it to 3 (2.25") wide boards you are most certainly going to lose some flatness and straightness you worked so hard to get on the jointer....)

Door parts that get a profile, go to the shaper just like yours and bypass the square edge step. (and I use the same outboard fence and index system, so it's just a matter of changing cutters) 90% of the time these days folks don't want foo foo edge patterns, and most doors seem to be shaker style. For these, I do shaper square edge them and then put in the groove later. So no, I don't really find I spend much time changing cutters or feeder setups.

I had one employee who liked to belt sand face frame parts, and I was fine with that. But my custom cabinets often have lots of wider boards componants, and they don't balance so well on a edge.

Anything that gets glued definitely goes to the shaper first--it's just that much easier to keep things flat if the edge is perfect. I kill two birds with one stone too by making my glueups at exact width, so there is no need to do anything else to the edge.

There are many ways to go from rough lumber to assembly, and I definitely don't use the shaper method in every situation.

-Steve

Tony Bilello

03-16-2010, 8:29 PM

Mark Bolton

03-16-2010, 8:47 PM

My sentiments exactly.

I guess it seems to me that many in this thread are counting ONLY the final steps and not the ones up until that point.

I suppose if you are buying your lumber S4S and are merely making sure your material is flat, square, parallel, and has jointed faces then this makes sense. However the way I look at steve's process is with regards to breaking down material overall. This would be an instance where you would not have a WWII in the saw at all times (I dont use one period). While I dont know for sure I would imagine in most shops you rarely have a pristine blade in the saw ever, much less for every project moving across the shop floor.

You rely on other pieces of equipment to make up for the TS being in its needed position of breaking down material, hence leaving it with a nice but less than perfect edge.

This would seem to me to be why people take pieces and gang them through the planer or wide belt. It takes all the variables out and leaves you with identical pieces which is simply impossible to achieve with the TS.

Steve's process simply does this quickly and fairly repeatably (thought not as repeatable as ganging) and its advantage comes throughout the entire process. One blade in the saw, great for a shop that varies width, and so on.

I can easily see where a shop with a different set of tools and a different type of work would benefit from a different technique however far too often today people dont count all the steps in the process and only focus on the one.

The second I see "WWII" I think of someone who changes blades multiple times throughout a project. Personally in our shop we virtually never changes blades unless we are breaking down rough lumber and doing a lot of ripping.

I would likely never have a pristine $140 dollar blade in the saw unless it just happened to be luck, and it would only be pristine for about 5 minutes.

Mark

Jeff Duncan

03-17-2010, 9:32 AM

Mark, your forgetting about those of us who use multiple saws:D
I have 1 Uni set up for ripping which also does double duty for anything needing dado's. A good glue line rip blade is all of $60.
My second saw is setup for panel stock, that's where the $130 blades usually reside. And yes I also change blades fairly frequently, just goes with the territory. I have blades for melamine, laminate, plastics,
crosscutting, ripping, you name it. WWII's are very good compromise blades. But I like to use the right tool for the job whenever possible. A Hi-AT blade will give you a better finish when crosscutting hardwood veneer stock for example. Not great for cutting 1/4" acrylic though.
Like I said different strokes...everyone has there own methods to get the job done and yours may just happen to be the best for you;)
good luck,
JeffD

J.R. Rutter

03-17-2010, 10:37 AM

most doors seem to be shaker style. For these, I do shaper square edge them and then put in the groove later.
-Steve

Have you ever tried doing the groove at the same time? I run all of my sticking with this type of fence (like David mentioned way back at the start of the thread) to get final width and groove/profile all in one pass. Remove about 1/16" and I have not found the need to climb cut - no chipping.

Half the battle with a shaper is standardizing tooling diameters so that your width scale is always accurate.

Steve Griffin

03-17-2010, 12:29 PM

Have you ever tried doing the groove at the same time? I run all of my sticking with this type of fence (like David mentioned way back at the start of the thread) to get final width and groove/profile all in one pass. Remove about 1/16" and I have not found the need to climb cut - no chipping.

Half the battle with a shaper is standardizing tooling diameters so that your width scale is always accurate.

Thats a great idea! Thanks! I actually tried it years ago, but my top and bottom cutters where fuzz different in diameter, which isn't acceptable if you want flat doors.

What I'd like to find is a set of 1/2" straight cutters which are matched perfectly for top/bottom of the profile. Anyone have a source for that?

-Steve

Karl Brogger

03-17-2010, 5:58 PM

What I'd like to find is a set of 1/2" straight cutters which are matched perfectly for top/bottom of the profile. Anyone have a source for that?

Skip the stacked cutters for the stick profile, and just get an insert head. Cheaper in the long run anyway. There's a number of good brands, I've been buy LRH and have been happy with it. I think JR is talking about all of your cutters for different profiles being the same diameter, so you back fence adjustment is the same. For me I just use a straight edge for setting the width as I haven't gotten around to having anything built yet. Something with a threaded adjustment, and a digital readout would really be a time saver.

edit- Is there a chance you have one of the cutters mixed up from the cope set? Might explain the different diameter if it was planned for the tounge to be a bit shorter than the groove to insure it doesn't bottom out first. I've never seen a set like that, but that doesn't mean it isn't out there.

Peter Quinn

03-17-2010, 8:27 PM

Mark, thanks for the description of your friends over arm router set up. That sounds like quite a thing. I love solutions like that. We straight line our material, but that doesn't put a finished edge on the wood and requires a huge commitment if power, space, and chip collection. Also very boring to operate.

Here are a few pics of the four little bears. Just for fun. Its a different kind of fairy tale. There is baby bear (3/4" rabbit cutter 3Z) who wants to chip anything it can and make Peter a very sore wood worker. Then there is mama bear, a 5" 2Z insert rabbit/jointing cutter with a gentle exit angle that tears out very little. Then there is Papa bear, a 7" Leuco 4Z insert head, also works for tenoning, and he doesn't tear out anything, except wood from your hands if you try to work freehand. Big MEC FEED ONLY sign on him. And last (or maybe first in the pics) there is grizzly bear, the 4" 6Z stagger tooth pattern cutter with 7 degree shear teeth. He eats wood with all those teeth but doesn't tear out, like an old school Bryd head. With an 1 1/4" spindle and bigger cutters, climb cutting is rarely necessary. If I run the 3/4" cutter on 10K rpms with the feeder on low the results are decent but slow.

Main reason I have a shaper? To give me a reason to collect odd rabbit/jointing cutters of all kinds. I may have a problem, because this is not all of them, and I never realized I had so many until I started pulling them out to put in one picture.

Mark Bolton

03-17-2010, 9:04 PM

Mark, your forgetting about those of us who use multiple saws:D

Jeff,
Again, thats like saying "your forgetting about those of us who have a widebelt". Or those who have a straight line rip saw, or a 4 head moulder, or any other piece of equipment.

I have no idea if Steve has multiple saws in his shop and dont want to sound as if I am trying to find reasons to validate the process.

What I am saying is that from my experience, with a single saw in the shop, granted perhaps a small shop, and working with a widely varying widths of a given material as opposed to quantities of identical components, the process has merits if only because it is feeder oriented as opposed to hand fed.

The vast majority of opposition to this process has been in regards to hand fed alternatives. Many mentions of parts ready directly off the TS. These parts are all fed one at a time, by hand, likely with a push stick.

For me, in my shop, any chance I get to use a feeder operation which speeds up the process, increases safety exponentially, increases tooling life, reduces operator fatigue, as well as many other issues, is a winner in my book.

Often I think of the concept that when you begin to refine the very fine points of a process your gains are measured in very small increments. I often think most discount the wear an tear on your body, the fact that you may resharpen two or three times more frequently annually, and so on.

I just have a hard time seeing how arguing for a hand fed option over a stock feeder option wins. Of course I would love to have the widebelt option in my shop, or I would love to be working with 10, 15, or 50, identical parts. But I dont. I am often making a piece that starts with dead rough lumber, perhaps only uses 5 identical parts, and feeder based operations are most always what I gravitate to.

I cant even begin to comment on the vast array of materials you mention, acrylic, plastics, and so on. This really doesnt have a lot of relevance to the initial post with regards to cleaning up and squaring edges. Of course all of us would have to re-tool for such material changes.

Mark

Steve Griffin

03-17-2010, 9:49 PM

Mark has excellent points. Whenever one considers a new tool or method, it has ripple effects throughout the shop and your products. Sometimes the impact of a change takes time to become apparent.

I thought of that today when I received an order of Vertical grain fir. In about 1/2 hour, I quickly jointed 120 board feet of the stuff. My jointer was set deep, and I was moving as fast as safe. All the edges have some chatter, missed spots and plenty of little chipouts. No worries though, all I needed was a straight line--my jointers job is not for making a nice clean edge. Some of my critical pieces, like door frames, will actually get one more trip to the jointer after being ripped from the wider boards for an extra chance to get a perfectly straight line. But again, I'm flying through this step--none of this being slow and careful to get a perfect edge--thats what mr shaper is standing by to do.

I probably feed through the shaper about the same speed as a table saw. But, the pieces go in one after another with no interuption, there is no pushstick antics and reaching around a saw blade to clean up the fall off.

It's great we are really hashing this out. I'd hate for someone to go out and buy a shaper for this, without understanding the big picture for their particular shop. I know how well it works in my situation, that's for sure.

-Steve

J.R. Rutter

03-18-2010, 11:19 AM

Just for grins as relates to this thread, my simplified process for running S4S, groove and profile for miter door frame:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NHzz6rC8zI

Seriously though, it is really nice to have a knife finish edge rather than sawn edge. The shaper method works well as one option to get there. And if all you have to do to change profile is crank the spindle up/down, or swap cutters, so much the better. Figure out your common minor diameter and start buying / specifying cutters that keep this constant.

Mark Bolton

03-18-2010, 7:45 PM

J.R. Rutter

03-18-2010, 10:21 PM

Sorry for the thread hijack. But you could argue that using a fence on a shaper like the original post illustrated so creatively, is just like the outside side head on a moulder, and just as high quality on the finish.

I just realized that that profile is the one from my very first job. Made in my garage shop with a 6" grizzly jointer, DeWalt planer, and 2 passes on a shaper with a 1/2 HP feeder. Took a lot longer back then. . .3rd shaper setup for the panels, then sanded on a 22/44 pro. I remember my roots:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_7ftZyQvHxr8/S6LhE3PDUjI/AAAAAAAAAP4/f7ehwVzaQPM/s720/Jointer%20%2B%20Shaper.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_7ftZyQvHxr8/S6LhF2LPj2I/AAAAAAAAAP8/8fyCqioN9Ms/s512/shop%20diag%20view.jpg

Steve Griffin

03-18-2010, 11:12 PM

Ah, just when I thought I had all the tools I need, JR posts more things to buy. Of course I would also need a bigger shop and more customers....

Sometimes I miss my early simple days of woodworking--circular saw, drill, router and a chisel. And angry roommates who didn't like me working in the laundry room for some reason.

-Steve

Joe Calhoon

03-19-2010, 1:41 AM

JR,
My earlier shops resemble that picture, especially the duct fitting and wire… Got to work with what you have.

We did a lot of outboard fence climb cutting when we had dedicated Delta type shapers and small diameter tooling. Solid spindles and insert tooling with scribers have eliminated the need to climb cut even for grooves and rebates.

You have it, using an outboard fence is just like a single side head moulder. The quality of cut comes from the solid support of material. The used SAC P3 profiler we just bought came from a large house door company set up for single edge surfacing with a large Tersa head. I don’t know the reason they were using it like this, I can get the same quality of finish off either the planer on edge or moulder.

The SAC is similar to a shaper with a permanent split fence. It is set to remove 1mm with the cutter head shaft adjusting in and out to get the right setting. All our heads have a consistent zero diameter so we don’t move it. The manual for the SAC shows a different way to use an outboard fence. Instead of the work piece riding against the outboard fence with a gap to the inboard fence or using pressure springs, the outboard fence is set width of stock tight + .2mm to the inboard fence. The manual says the feeder can be tilted either toward the outboard fence or inboard fence. For short pieces tilting against the outboard is better unless the fence opening is closed up.

This wouldn’t work if your stock varies in width but everything in our shop comes out of the S4S machine. We still do some outboard fence profiling with the shaper and have been experimenting using a similar technique. The biggest advantage I can see is improved dust collection. If you work with a lot of different widths the setup might be easier. We use a digital readout for our shaper outboard so this is not an issue. Your split fence needs to be accurate for this to work.

Attached is a page from the SAC manual and a picture of the same type fence on a SCM Class shaper.

Joe

Doug Kerley

04-27-2010, 12:31 AM

Thanks Steve for the post. I have been trying different set-ups on my shaper these past few days to do the exact same thing. Never thought of the steel rules. Good idea.

Joe Jensen

04-27-2010, 1:57 AM

That's funny, I HATE router setups for doing cabinet doors. It's not a power thing so much as a cutter head geometry thing. I can't imagine going from a shaper with power feeder to a shaper table. But heck, I started this hobby 30 years ago and all we had was a 1950s 1/2" Rockwell shaper. I don't think router tables existed back then.

Todays router tables and bigger routers have put the shaper in the corner where mine is. One day I am going to unload that hunk of metal. The cutters are too darn expensive. Jointer will put a nice edge on any board and if you want you can use the router table. Maybe larger furniture shops find more use for them. To each his own as they say I guess.

Ryan Brucks

08-01-2012, 4:49 PM

Very interesting thread, especially as someone who has only minimally used his shaper. Since my shaper is part of a combination machine, I don't see myself using it for most jointing operations, but just thinking about the shaper like this is interesting.

Would be cool to see some people talk about how a sliding table on a shaper could affect this. I have a slider. It seems that it would be pretty easy to set up a jig for parellel cutting on the shaper. I already have a ripping jig for sliding TS. What I like about ripping jigs on the slider is that if you have any doubt that the parellel angle is off, just take a super thin slice off the reference edge to "refresh" the guide and its guarenteed parellel.

A few pages back someone else mentioned issues with TS ripping as the last step. I lament this "issue" as well, its the only thing keeping all my thin rips from being glue ready (ie, the piece develops some curve from the stress relief). So this shaper method seems like a solution to that, since I think using the sliding table would be much safer than jointing a really thin strip.

John Coloccia

08-01-2012, 5:24 PM

I've been thinking to bring a shaper in for a while now. I'd love to be able to shape the profile of the back of my necks (not the shape, but just the thickness profile) with one pass. That just doesn't work on a router table. Yeah, I tried and it's a disaster having a big long bit like that just flapping in the breeze....dangerous as all heck too. For furniture work, I can see it being quite useful for shaping profiles into legs, and things like that. The one thing that's held me back is floor space. I'm still dreaming that I can dump my saw and jointer/planer, and just bring in a Hammer combo machine.

Router table is nice, but a shaper is nicer.