To finish or not ...?

[greg Forster]

I'm building a small tavern table for use in an informal setting. I have some old heart-pine (lumber cut at least 140 yrs ago) and am considering using no finish.

The existing patina is a nice reddish-brown and where I cut into a "fresh" surface on a scrap a few months back, it has pretty much colored-up to match the undisturbed patina.

Would it be appropriate, in terms of 18thc, to leave this table unfinished?

[Jim Koepke]

My opinions are just that and are subject to change for no particular reason.

That said, my thoughts would be to apply a finish. At least a bit of shellac or varnish to keep marks from forming when a drink is set down without a coaster.

A finish would also help to protect the wood from drying and splintering. An oil and beeswax mixture applied every few weeks might be enough for this.

Of course, if the idea of a few coffee rings and wine stains are appealing, then no finish would work.

I think there may be another conference on finishing where you might get more answers.

jim

[george wilson]

I'd finish it. If you don't,the wood will eventually turn a filthy color from arms resting on it,spills,etc.. There are many antiques out there with original nice finishes on them.

Shellac is so easy to turn white,I'd recommend a varnish finish.

[Frank Drew]

Greg,

I really like Old Pine and have used a bunch of it over the years. It can be quite hard and resin-y, both of which provide some protection, but even so, if you're interested in preserving its beauty, I'd put a finish on it because any wood will eventually become a bit grimy and even stained with use.

[Frank Drew]

Another way to put it, if you're content with a piece's form alone, if you're ok that before too long you won't be able to see much of the wood's grain or color, then no finish isn't the worst thing in the world. But if you want to preserve the beauty of your wood, as it looks when it's first sawn or planed, then you'll have to take steps to protect it.

[george wilson]

I failed to see that your table is heart pine. In that case,put down a coat of dewaxed shellac first. the resins in the wood will keep varnish from ever drying. seal it first.

[Harlan Barnhart]

Here is a clock from old growth pine that my grandfather made for me. Finished with BLO. The heart pine may cause problems with varnish. Old pine is beautiful. The wood for this clock came from the rafters of the house I lived in as a child.

[James Taglienti]

I heard somewhere that tavern tables were left unfinished. Evidently any attempt at preservation was obliterated :D

[Don C Peterson]

According to several things I've read it was quite common for tables to be left unfinished and cleaned up by scrubbing with soapy water.

I think we sometimes put too much stock in the protective nature of finishes. Wood is quite durable all by itself particularly in a situation where it's not exposed to constant dampness and fungal rot.

[James Taglienti]

.... but I would definetly apply some kind of protective finish. I built a couple of farm tables from old growth pine when I lived in Baton Rouge, we scavenged it after hurricane katrina. It's beautiful stuff but they both got a few coats of blonde shellac. Unfinished pine is nice, but the first time a bit of bacon grease, or god forbid grape juice or wine, hits the thing, it might detract from the piece to have a bunch of blotches and stuff on it. You could leave a #5 on it and just plane it clean every time you use ot, however :)

[Prashun Patel]

If it were me, I'd at least use an oil finish. It will retard stain penetration. Or you can use paste wax.

More important than the protection, these will improve the FEEL of the table.

You can get a wonderfully silky finish on pine using the above. Sand them up to a high grit, then just rub in oil or wax with steel wool. Buff or wipe off any excess.

The nice thing is both are easy to repair; just wipe more of it on.

[Kent A Bathurst]

....a few coats of blonde shellac...

+ wax


10101010

[george wilson]

In Williamsburg there are many things that people are able to touch. They all get very filthy looking,blackish,gray and grimy. The same will apply to any unfinished wood. If you scrub it,some time in the future it may start looking gray,bleached out,etc.

[Mark Roderick]

"Wood is quite durable all by itself particularly in a situation where it's not exposed to constant dampness and fungal rot."

In a bookcase, sure. But for a table?

Forgetting the rot, bare wood that is touched regularly by human beings will quickly become dirty. That's okay for a walking stick but not for a table, in my opinion. And you won't be able to wash the dirt off because it's down in the pores of the wood. The combination of dirt and water will then start to look real ugly.

Two or three coats of shellac should do the trick just fine. You can add more protection with a harder top coat, but that's up to you.

[Prashun Patel]

I wouldn't use shellac on a table. It's easy to repair, but it'll look like crap quickly as water rings or anything heavy gets placed on it. It just cracks, scratches and gets white rings way to easily. I don't think a brittle finish like shellac's a good choice on soft, dingable wood like pine that will be subjected to a lot of banging.

Oil or wax is the way to go for an easy (looks sorta unfinished) finish. Even wax will have some of the probs shellac has.

You can beef up the protection of straight oil (Boiled Linseed or raw tung) by adding some varnish or poly to it. Wipe on/soak/wipe off. Doesn't get any easier to finish or refinish. No sanding between coats, no rubbing after completion.

[Patrick J McCauley]

I suggest Waterlox. It is a great polymerized oil finish that is easily repairable if required later. I have refinished several antiques and this stuff is the cats meow. It gives you protection and can be easily recoated if required. It also preserves that wonderful smooth-silky feel you get with oil finishes with just a hint of build. (No, I don't work for them) :D

You can follow that up with a light coating of paste wax for added lustre and protection.

Just my two cents,

Patrick

[greg Forster]

I appreciate all the input and I definitely need to re-name this thread to Which Finish...
I didn't really think about the effects of constant handling on an un-finished piece; so at least that bad idea is out of my head.
However, still undecided on what finish- leaning to a minimum. I think I'll try several samples and go from there.

You know this forum is ... always enlightening, thought provoking and just plain too much fun !

[Prashun Patel]

Ok, since you've decided you want a finish: I vote for a wiping varnish. It builds slowly, is easy to apply and control, isn't too sensitive to dust. It's easy.

[David Keller NC]

I appreciate all the input and I definitely need to re-name this thread to Which Finish...
I didn't really think about the effects of constant handling on an un-finished piece; so at least that bad idea is out of my head.
However, still undecided on what finish- leaning to a minimum. I think I'll try several samples and go from there.

You know this forum is ... always enlightening, thought provoking and just plain too much fun !

You asked what was period-appropriate. There are, of course, very large numbers of these tables out there that have no finish, or a stripped and re-finished surface (often many times over). However - every example I've reviewed in several dozens of museum books were originally painted - usually with a red paint, but occasionally in copper-green. Whether or not you want your table painted is, of course, a personal taste decision.

Regarding shellac - I've used shellac to finish many tables, and it's an excellent table finish with a few exceptions. Keep in mind that these observations are shellac that's been freshly dissolved from flakes - I've had very poor luck with pre-dissolved shellac (like Zinsser seal-coat, for example).

1) Shellac is, despite common wisdom to the contrary, extraordinarily water resistant. I recently did a test for a client that wanted a large cherry kitchen island finished in shellac - I placed a wet glass (filled with water and ice), a puddle of water, and a puddle of acidic soda (moutain dew) on a cherry board with 3 thins coats of shellac on it and left it for 18 hours. After wiping with a paper towel, the place were the liquids were was indistinguishable from the surrounding finish.

2) Shellac will not hold up to strongly alcoholic liquids, but the same test as noted in 1 with beer and wine left no visible marks after 18 hours.

3) Shellac is very susceptible to hot mugs or dishes. Anything approaching the boiling point will partially melt the shellac and leave a ring where the dish was.

4) Shellac is damaged by common cleaning solutions that contain alkaline materials. Examples are 409, Windex, and cleaning ammonia. Shellaced surfaces that have been exposed to these chemicals soften considerably, and are then vulnerable to water marks (I tested this - this effect may be the source of the "water ring" comments on the net forums).

[Don C Peterson]

As to getting dirty, a finish doesn't prevent that, and sometimes just makes it worse as the finish deteriorates. Alan Peters in his book, Cabinet Making: A Professional Approach (http://www.amazon.com/Cabinet-Making-Professional-Alan-Peters/dp/085442024X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268747778&sr=8-1) Says that unfinished is his favorite "finish" for kitchen tables. This approach has been used for decades by his mentors and himself, and for centuries by craftsmen before them... I have comparatively little experience with it, but in a way it makes sense.

As the table gets dirty, you take some hot soapy water and scrub it down. The water will tend to swell up and fill in dents. Scrubbing keeps the dirty nastiness from building up and he says that over a period of decades, a nice patina develops.

[Mark Berenbrok]

I made our kitchen table from heart of pine about 10 years ago and used the 1/3 BLO, 1/3 turpentine, 1/3 varnish formula. Kitchen tables get so much use (abuse) that I wanted something that was easy to repair and looked good. Once a year I'll take it outside and scrub the top with mineral spirits and 0000 steel wool. Two coats of the above mixture and I'm done in the same day. The mixture really sets off the figure and color in heart of pine.

Garrett Hack did an article in FWW about the finish.

[paul cottingham]

Varnish oil is nice, and really non-toxic.

[greg Forster]

I starting to think the solution is to make 2 tables; one with finish and one without. I realize that paint was often a historic finish on many utilitarin(sic?) pieces, but just not crazy about that direction. I looking to get some more info (help?) on the "red finish" that is often noted on antique pieces



I'm sure the "spell-checker" is right here, but I just can't find it

[David Keller NC]

Greg - The reddish stain/paint often cited as the original finish on maple objects of the period was intended to mimic mahogany at a much cheaper price (historic sources note mahogany at about 4 times the price of maple). If you're interested in the historic recipe, one can be found in the book "The Dunlaps and Their Furniture" by Charles S Parsons. It involves logwood chips and "dragon's blood", which is an extract of Dracaena species of plants - I think you can get it from the Olde Mill Cabinet Shop.

A warning - most of the red paints of the period contain cinnabar as the primary pigment. Cinnabar is the common term for mercury sulfide, which is remarkably poisonous.

[Mark Roderick]

I'm not arguing with you, but this just doesn't make sense to me. A finish definitely WILL help keep the table clean because the pores are filled in and you can easily wash off dirt and oils. That's one of the main reasons for using a finish. And of course a good finish is not going to deteriorate quickly.

As for repeatedly wiping a piece of bare wood with hot soapy water over the course of a decade, I just don't think a "patina" is what will develop. Instead, I think you're going to get loose, decaying wood fibers and a surface that is increasingly murky and unattractive.

I didn't finish my workbench and over time it just gets dirty, fine for woodworking but not where I'd seat guests for Thanksgiving dinner. If I rubbed my bench with water I don't think I'd get a nice patina!

[greg Forster]

I'm going with the red stain. What would be a modern recipe for the stain. I'm old enough to remember when Mercury was used in apple orchards- bad stuff.

[Frank Drew]

As to getting dirty, a finish doesn't prevent that, and sometimes just makes it worse as the finish deteriorates. Alan Peters in his book, Cabinet Making: A Professional Approach (http://www.amazon.com/Cabinet-Making-Professional-Alan-Peters/dp/085442024X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268747778&sr=8-1) Says that unfinished is his favorite "finish" for kitchen tables. This approach has been used for decades by his mentors and himself, and for centuries by craftsmen before them... I have comparatively little experience with it, but in a way it makes sense.

As the table gets dirty, you take some hot soapy water and scrub it down. The water will tend to swell up and fill in dents. Scrubbing keeps the dirty nastiness from building up and he says that over a period of decades, a nice patina develops.

Don,

As I remember it, Peters wrote that he finished his kitchen table with a rather laboriously built up linseed oil finish, rubbed in hard with a brick covered with a piece of carpet or something like that. And the wood was nothing special, plain pine (deal) or something similar, I think.

[David Keller NC]

I'm going with the red stain. What would be a modern recipe for the stain. I'm old enough to remember when Mercury was used in apple orchards- bad stuff.

Greg - recall that pine may (probably WILL) blotch badly if it's stained/dyed as raw wood. For this reason, I would suggest the following - wash coat your table with one or two coats of a 1 lb. cut of shellac. Mix the shellac up from flakes, because you want this surface to cure very hard. Allow it to sit for at least 24 hours (preferably 72), then apply one or more coats of a 1-2 lb. cut of shellac appropriately tinted with red Transtint wood dye. The good thing about this procedure is that if you don't like the result, you can easily remove the coating and start again. that won't be easy if you dye the raw wood - lots and lots and lots of sanding.

Whether you wish to over-coat the dyed shellac with more shellac or an alkyd varnish, polyurethane, or laquer or not is your call, but anything will stick to shellac, so this is a versatile undercoat.