Norton expiring-what's the Best anti virus program [Archive]

dennis thompson

03-11-2010, 7:06 AM

I asked this question last year but I'd like to ask it again to see if your opinions have changed since then.
My Norton antivirus is expiring, I don't want to renew it. I have a few questions:
1-should I remove Norton before I install my new program?
2-Which anti virus program should I use? I'm running XP on one computer & Vista on a second
3-is there a special tool to remove Norton or do I just use the uninstall program that comes with my computer?
Thanks
Dennis

Sandy Smith

03-11-2010, 7:32 AM

I changed from Norton to McAfee 2 years ago.

I have 5 computers here and they all use McAfee. I have had no problems with anything in two years. They have a deal where you can get multi protection on your computers at a very reduced price.

I don't have any horse in the race...... just my experience as you asked.

Oh, uninstall Norton through uninstall and then directly to McAfee for the purchase was how I did it. Took about 10 minutes total with high speed.

Sean Troy

03-11-2010, 8:03 AM

Make sure after you un-install it, you go into you drive it was installed on and remove all traces of the program before installing another one. Add and remove will not get rid of all traces of Norton.

Paul Ryan

03-11-2010, 8:17 AM

I have been using norton 360 for 3 years now. I switched from Mcafee becase it used to much of my memory. I am no expert but norton runs lighter and does a very good job. I have no compaints. If you are going to renew don't go through norton. They charge more than other vendors for their products do. Last time my subscription ran out norton wanted $70 to renew for 3 computers. I ended up getting a norton 360 disk through amazon for $20. I wasn't going to renew for $70 that is too much in my opinion.

Jerome Hanby

03-11-2010, 8:23 AM

I use Avast. I started because it was the only one that had a 64 bit version (and I wanted 64 bit stuff on my spiffy new AMD 64 bit/XP54 system). Since I've switched all my PCs over to it.

G. Brad Schmidt

03-11-2010, 8:23 AM

There is no AV program that will thwart ALL attacks (read: best). Though, some are better than others; I like and use Kaspersky (http://www.kaspersky.com/).

Sean is right... Be sure you remove all traces of Norton first. It is a very intrusive program that runs very deep.

I use Revo Uninstaller (http://www.revouninstaller.com/) (which is free) that will remove the prog. and all traces left in your registry. Revo is used for all my prog. removals.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/auswahl/ernaehrung004.gif (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/ernaehrung/food-drink-smilies.html)

Scott Shepherd

03-11-2010, 8:25 AM

I have become a big fan of eset. It's very unlike Norton and McAfee, where as you don't see it doing anything to slow your computer down. Start up's don't take 5 minutes due to the protection. It's rated very highly by geeks, so I tried it. You just don't know it's running it takes so little resources.

I'm using the security suite on two machines and wouldn't even consider using one of the "big boys" again. It's nice to have my computer back.

NOD32 is the antivirus program by them (NOD stands for No Open Doors, so they say), and it's included in the security suite.

Dave Clermont

03-11-2010, 8:52 AM

+1 for Eset I have been running NOD32 for the last 3 years, very good product.

Rick Gifford

03-11-2010, 9:19 AM

I use to be a big fan of Nortons. I hate how its such a pain to uninstall. I have even worse hassles with McAfee.

I now use AVAST! free antivirus.

Its been rated one of the best free programs. I now just install it on any computer I repair or do a fresh install on.

It works very well.

Myk Rian

03-11-2010, 9:20 AM

1-should I remove Norton before I install my new program?

YES

2-Which anti virus program should I use? I'm running XP on one computer & Vista on a second

FREE

3-is there a special tool to remove Norton or do I just use the uninstall program that comes with my computer?

Go to the Norton website and download the removal tool. No not use the un-install in Windows.

Russ Filtz

03-11-2010, 9:45 AM

+3 for NOD32. You should also be running other stuff as well just in case. Malwarebytes, SuperAntiSpyware, Lavasoft AdAware, Comodo Firewall (or at least the Windows thing), occasionally HiJack This, etc. Best thing is all those are FREE! (except for NOD32 that is)

Ron Cole

03-11-2010, 9:47 AM

Search google for "avg free download". AVG has a free version that works great. They do keep trying to sell you the paid version, but it isn't necessary. Using the google search makes it easier to find, since they make it difficult to navigate their website to find it.

Matt Meiser

03-11-2010, 9:50 AM

Microsoft also has a new free AV utility for home use only called Microsoft Security Essentials. I'm running it on our home computers with good results. Before that I ran AVG Free but it was starting to get bloated like Norton and McAfee.

Jim Tobias

03-11-2010, 9:51 AM

After years of trying McAfee and Norton and not liking them and also having a lot of trouble getting them entirely off the machine, I switched to BitDefender. According to out IT head, it is a very good program. I have had it for 4-5 years now and would not trade for anything else. Costs is around $50-60.

Jim

Mike Henderson

03-11-2010, 10:12 AM

+4 for NOD32

Mike

Dave Johnson29

03-11-2010, 10:15 AM

There are a lot of myths about the need for AV. It is mostly scare tactics by vested interests. I have been a programmer since 1976 and have NEVER had a virus.

If you are not surfing questionable sites then there is no need for AV. If you are surfing questionable sites then use Firefox and NoScript and control what comes to your computer.

If you open Attachments to emails from unknown senders then suffer the consequences as that is a dumb thing to do.

Regularly run MalwareBytes and SpyBot (both free) once a week just for peace of mind. While no Malware program will get everything these two pretty much cover everything.

If you can't get by without surfing questionable sites, then use another computer. Use RestorePoint (free) for a one click System Restore creation each day. If it gets infected then just use a System Restore to go back to before the infection.

Save your money.

OK, let the flames and nay-sayers ring in. :D:D:D

Ken Fitzgerald

03-11-2010, 10:34 AM

The fire departments observing this thread so there won't be any flaming.....naysayers on the other....well.......:rolleyes:

Scott Shepherd

03-11-2010, 10:35 AM

There are a lot of myths about the need for AV. It is mostly scare tactics by vested interests. I have been a programmer since 1976 and have NEVER had a virus.

99.9999% of people using the internet are not computer programmers. Millions of average people get hit by them every year.

If you are not surfing questionable sites then there is no need for AV. If you are surfing questionable sites then use Firefox and NoScript and control what comes to your computer.

That's not true at all. That's a HUGE myth that if you get a virus you must have been on a porn site. Not true. People hack good sites and you can easily think you are looking at a site you look at every day, when in fact, you are looking at a hacked site that's exploiting that site to give you a virus. The problem isn't on the PC end, it's on the server end where people are leaving gaping holes in their security and allowing their servers to be hacked into. That's a "programmer/admin" problem, not a end PC user problem. Don't blame the guy that clicks on a woodworking link in google for the virus some programmer or admin allowed to get onto his server.

If you open Attachments to emails from unknown senders then suffer the consequences as that is a dumb thing to do.

Again, not true. When people are spoofing email addresses, how's the average user supposed to know that the email they have that says it's from their trusted source is REALLY from their trusted source? The average user has no way to know that.

If you can't get by without surfing questionable sites, then use another computer. Use RestorePoint (free) for a one click System Restore creation each day. If it gets infected then just use a System Restore to go back to before the infection.

Save your money.

So now we have to buy 2 computers, one to use the internet and one to use? I'm not a programmer, and I do use anti-virus programs and I only need one computer. So I am saving my money. Saving it by not buying two computers.

OK, let the flames and nay-sayers ring in. :D:D:D

You asked for it :D:D:D

Scott Shepherd

03-11-2010, 10:40 AM

Let's just take a really simple example.

Let's say I'm the average Joe. I have a computer. I decide I need anti-virus software. What do I do?

I go to google, type in "Anti-virus software" or worse yet, "free anti-virus software" (because as the average Joe, I am thrifty :) ).

Many of the top results are actually spyware,malware, or even virus filled sites. I have no way of knowing that. I click on one or two, looking for a good program, and it's all over.

No porn sites involved, no poor decisions, just normal, average decisions that 99.9% of people using the internet make every day.

If you don't use Web of Trust, you should. It'll show you in all your Google searches which sites are bad or good before you click. If I didn't have that installed, I wouldn't know those sites are bad.

Also, Google Adwords for anti-virus is full of bad bad bad websites. So someone is actually paying money to get people to click on ads that lead you to infected sites.

Michael MacDonald

03-11-2010, 11:01 AM

1-should I remove Norton before I install my new program?
2-Which anti virus program should I use? I'm running XP on one computer & Vista on a second
Dennis

I only read a few posts, so this might have already been said... but I use the free microsoft security essentials application. I can't say it is the best, though it showed up well in the consumer reports rankings. I also installed the free version of malwarebytes, though it is a scanning program and not a live protection program... Malwarebytes seems to be better that MS security essentials and I run it every once and a while to clean anything that MS missed. I did get a spyware thing on my PC right after installing MS sec essentials (not a great recommendation, then?) but the malwarebytes software cleaned it up. No anti-virus program is perfect, so I haven't changed by strategy yet.

I went to this software after learning that renewing trend micro was going to be over $50... I didn't want to shell out for that, so I looked around for free sw. The free version of Avast is recommended too.

John Pratt

03-11-2010, 11:06 AM

+1 on Bit defender (although I dont know how much it really removes) and Malwarebytes. I am definitely not a fan of Norton. I always used Norton in the past then I upgraded to Norton Systemworks and lost every hard drive I owned three days later (three desktops, one laptop, and two external drives) even with help from the online tech support as the drives started acting funny. when I took all these to the local computer store he had five other people with the same drive problems using the same program. Norton's respones was, "Well, sometimes these things happen." They refunded the money spent for the program, but that didn't recover the huge amount of data I lost.

paul cottingham

03-11-2010, 11:29 AM

We call people who use AVG "customers." We call people who don't use antivirus "customers." We call people who use outlook or outlook express without AV "customers." get good AV.

Recommend Avast.

Dave Johnson29

03-11-2010, 11:59 AM

Scott,

I mentioned being a programmer to indicate I may know what I am talking about. One does not need to be a programmer for prudent web use.

I would be surprised to learn that most people do not own an older PC. I know of no trade-in programs so what happens to the older ones?

Spoofed emails will be indicated as such by good email clients. One's choice of email clients decides how safe one wants to be. There is more to spoofing than just changing the recipient's name. A good email client will detect those issues and warn accordingly.

Hacking web sites is a LOT harder than the vested interests would have you believe. A majority of sites are run on web hosts who will have very strong protection to hacking behind the sites. Those people who run their own servers may well have security holes and you need to decide if you want to use that site. ooops, I believe SMC runs their own servers. :eek: 'sok, I feel safe here. :)

As to searching for a free anti-virus and coming up on a Malware websites, I agree there is a good risk there, but... prudent people, like Dennis, ask in a familiar and trusted forum.

A LOT of the instances where viruses (not virii :)) have caused mass damage, the computers in question all had AV "protection" but the operator chose to over-ride those protections or not heed prudent web use advice.

My case rests Scott, it matters not to me what AV one buys, uses or does not use. I felt I had a responsibility to put across an alternative point of view on the subject. A point of view I believe in and hold very strongly.

The problem with AV products is that it gives people a false sense of security. Examining one's behavior with the web and emails and behaving prudently is a more important step, I believe.

Dave Johnson29

03-11-2010, 12:00 PM

The fire departments observing this thread so there won't be any flaming.

Thanks Ken, I was getting a bit hot in this Proban suit. :)

Scott Shepherd

03-11-2010, 12:50 PM

Spoofed emails will be indicated as such by good email clients. One's choice of email clients decides how safe one wants to be. There is more to spoofing than just changing the recipient's name. A good email client will detect those issues and warn accordingly.

As to searching for a free anti-virus and coming up on a Malware websites, I agree there is a good risk there, but... prudent people, like Dennis, ask in a familiar and trusted forum.

Define prudent. My parents, in their 70's don't know what a "email client" is. Last time I checked, neither did any of their friends. That's the average user there. Only people who know what "email clients" are, are people in the business or people who are into that. That's the point most computer heads don't get. They think that because they know, then everyone knows.

So you buy a computer, it has outlook on it, yet, they are supposed to magically know that they cannot use outlook, and they need to look for Thunderbird? How are they supposed to know that? It's not in the owners manual.

Forums? Again, the percentage of people on forums is very small. Not a single person my my family or extended family use forums, much less asking computer related questions on forums.

The reason you are so safe is because you know what to do and not to do. The average person has no idea that clicking on the "cancel" button actually launches the virus in many pop ups. How's the average person supposed to know that?

Matt Meiser

03-11-2010, 1:06 PM

So now we have to buy 2 computers, one to use the internet and one to use? I'm not a programmer, and I do use anti-virus programs and I only need one computer. So I am saving my money. Saving it by not buying two computers.

I once worked for a very small manufacturing company that did exactly that. 2 networks, 2 computers on every desk. Of course I think they had 10 employees, over 1/2 of whom were on the shop floor.

but I use the free microsoft security essentials application. I can't say it is the best, though it showed up well in the consumer reports rankings.

Maybe I'll have to rethink using it. :)

Spoofed emails will be indicated as such by good email clients. One's choice of email clients decides how safe one wants to be. There is more to spoofing than just changing the recipient's name. A good email client will detect those issues and warn accordingly.

What about viruses that infect a computer and use Outlook to send everyone in the address book an email. Its not a spoofed address, it is an email from your Aunt Ruby. Of course you or I might view it with suspicion but not everyone is savvy enough to figure it out.

Hacking web sites is a LOT harder than the vested interests would have you believe.

What about a fat-fingered web address?

This thread reminds me of a few recent TS safety threads. ;)

Dave Johnson29

03-11-2010, 1:31 PM

What about a fat-fingered web address?

I don't know what that is or what it means if it is not a "something," Matt. :)

Bruce R Smith

03-11-2010, 1:45 PM

Another vote for Eset. I have switched from Norton to Eset on the recomendation from a computer expert recently. I am running it on three computers and it runs so discretely in the background it is nearly invisible, until you try to download something harmful. It then just deletes the file and tells you it did so. Norton took up so much of the computer resources that it slowed the computer down. If you get ride of the Norton be sure to Google "Norton Removal Tool." Just uninstalling Norton will not get rid of the whole program. Uninstall it normally, restart, run the removal tool, and restart again. Then you can load your new program without a hitch.

I am a definite Eset fan!
Bruce

Dave Johnson29

03-11-2010, 1:56 PM

My parents, in their 70's don't know what a "email client" is. Last time I checked, neither did any of their friends.

OK, I'm being flippant here, :) but, but wouldn't a good Son (and neighbor) set them up with the safest and best stuff available? :D:D Specially if it is free to use.

I have set up all of my neighbors with Firefox and Thunderbird. Well except for one die-hard who insists on staying with IE7 even though she loves Thunderbird for emails.

That's the point most computer heads don't get. They think that because they know, then everyone knows.

Not at all Scott, we are all capable of learning new stuff. I am 66 and still learn new stuff almost daily. I mean, a person doesn't just get in a car and know how to drive. People have a VCR, a DVD player, a CD player a Remote for the TV, smart cooking-range, a programmable microwave oven, the list goes on and on and they all have a learning curve for correct usage. Computers are no different.

As I said, relying on software instead of smart-use is a false sense of security. I repeat, most of the mass virus damage was (and I opine, will continue to be) caused on "protected" computers but people override or ignore the safeguards installed. Sensible use should always be adequate protection.

Viruses and virus awareness has been on the TV and radio almost daily for the past 20 years.

I will slink quietly back into my bat-cave now. ;):)

Matt Meiser

03-11-2010, 2:36 PM

I don't know what that is or what it means if it is not a "something," Matt. :)

Sorry--a typo. Like if I type www.yhaoo.com.

Matt Meiser

03-11-2010, 2:38 PM

People have a VCR

Anyone have any statistics on how many of those still flash 12:00 because the user can't figure it out? :)

Dave Johnson29

03-11-2010, 2:50 PM

Anyone have any statistics on how many of those still flash 12:00 because the user can't figure it out? :)

Mine does not, I used black electrical tape over the front panel. :D

Dave Johnson29

03-11-2010, 2:51 PM

Sorry--a typo. Like if I type www.yhaoo.com (http://www.yhaoo.com).

Ahh, OK, thanks Matt, Firefox and NoScript Add-on will protect you from that. All free.

Although it appears Yahoo has that DNS covered though. It appears to take you to the real Yahoo site. But I know what you mean.

Scott Shepherd

03-11-2010, 3:14 PM

OK, I'm being flippant here, :) but, but wouldn't a good Son (and neighbor) set them up with the safest and best stuff available? :D:D

A good son did. They have 2 Mac Mini's :D:D:D (sorry, you walked into that one ;) )

My free time has greatly increased as I haven't had a single phone call in 2-3 years asking "it says I need to click on this, what do I do? Is is real or fake?".

See, I am a good son after all :p:p

paul cottingham

03-11-2010, 3:16 PM

You know, the point is that it is irresponsible to not use some form of antivirus. I don't care how careful you are, you will get caught, I see it all the time. It is not unlike not using safety equipment when woodworking.

Oops, two cans of worms...opened.

Dave Johnson29

03-11-2010, 3:57 PM

They have 2 Mac Mini's

Oh dear, Scott, a Son should love his parents. Giving them macs. Oh no! :eek:

It seems with one each for the Parents you are less frugal with them than yourself. :D Talk about walking into things. :p:p

The bat-cave calls.

Dave Johnson29

03-11-2010, 4:00 PM

It is not unlike not using safety equipment when woodworking.

:) One question for you Paul, do you have the blade guard still in place on your table saw?

Let's shake this big old can of worms and let's see what falls out. Oh, I notice Norm doesn't (didn't) have one in his table saw, or router. :eek:

paul cottingham

03-11-2010, 4:04 PM

Actually, believe it or not, I do. I have very little feeling in my hands and am terrified of my saw.

But I totally take your point.;)

Scott Shepherd

03-11-2010, 4:05 PM

I'm not frugal at all. It's the Average Joe in my example that was frugal. A smart man told me a long time ago, work smarter, not harder and I was working hard answering tech support questions. So I solved that problem :D

Jerome Hanby

03-11-2010, 4:28 PM

Scott,

I mentioned being a programmer to indicate I may know what I am talking about.

I work with a whole department full of programmers. I'm not sure I would extend any of them the courtesy of that assumption... including myself (and I have a pretty high opinion of myself :D).

Dave Johnson29

03-11-2010, 5:04 PM

I'm not sure I would extend any of them the courtesy of that assumption...

I know what you mean Jerome, that's why I said, "may know," I didn't want to sound too pompous. :D:D

Dave Johnson29

03-11-2010, 5:09 PM

But I totally take your point.;)

It was intended all in good fun and I am impressed you still have the guard on. Mine was in the trash within a week of the table saw arriving.

I really tried to like it as I understand the idea, but it just kept getting in the way.

Don't ask about the Delta 8" Miter saw and missing guard that I use for cutting aluminum bar. :eek::eek::D

Karl Card

03-12-2010, 2:32 AM

Panda by far used to be the best. Not sure how they fare today. there once was 3 computers with 50 virus on each hd. norton was put on on computer, mcafee on the other and panda on the 3rd.... mcafee couldnt even find all the virus, norton found all but could not get rid of all and panda found all and got rid of all...

In today s world I use Avast and so far it has done good.
They have a free version and also a pro version.

joe aiello

03-12-2010, 6:00 AM

When they say free ,do they mean free? Where can I get Malwarebytes without buying something else?. ----joe

Phil Thien

03-12-2010, 8:19 AM

I own Wisconsin's oldest computer store, one of the oldest in the nation according to Ingram/Tech Data (giant IT distributors).

We get about 30 infected machines into the store each and every week.

Each and every machine already has anti-virus software, and every major product is represented (Norton, McAfee, Trend, avast, AVG, NOD32, etc.).

New variants of viruses are released every day. And if the virus isn't in the definitions of product you're using, you have to rely on the heuristic analysis to catch it. In those cases, your chances drop substantially.

We load all those machines with some free anti-virus product (AVG, avast, antivir) and then switch the user's account from administrator to limited user (which often requires adding a special new "Admin" account for use if they need to load software and or make other system changes).

If they have teenagers or young adults in the house, we put a password on the "Admin" account that we tell the owner of the machine and that the other users won't be able to guess. That prevents the kids from installing products like Limewire and other behavior that is likely to immediately infect the machine.

We make a couple of other changes to the registry to prevent some viruses from adding themselves to "run" for the current user hive.

Finally, you can't run a PC these days w/o some sort of anti-virus software. If for no other reason than to tell you something is "trying" to get it (so you can avoid a site that is likely to ultimately figure out a way).

Dave Johnson29

03-12-2010, 9:55 AM

Each and every machine already has anti-virus software, and every major product is represented (Norton, McAfee, Trend, avast, AVG, NOD32, etc.).

...snip

Finally, you can't run a PC these days w/o some sort of anti-virus software. If for no other reason than to tell you something is "trying" to get it (so you can avoid a site that is likely to ultimately figure out a way).

Phil,

Isn't that contradictory?

That was the point I am making that an AV product gives a false sense of security whereas good surfing practice works.

If you have kids then give them a computer and let them have at it. It is plain nuts to let kids have the computer that is used for your private stuff and work etc.

A local Senior's Center has/had (haven't been there for a few weeks) 9 complete computers for sale with 14" to 17" monitors, mouse, keyboards and OS ranging from ME to Vista for 35-bucks each. I got my 19" KDS CRT from there for $5.00 a year back and it is still going strong.

One of the local Thrift shops has some complete for $45 each. A local school is auctioning off about 50 next week or so, and they will go for $10 to $15 each if last year was anything to go by.

Myk Rian

03-12-2010, 10:48 AM

When they say free ,do they mean free? Where can I get Malwarebytes without buying something else?. ----joe
Try these;
Spybot Search and Destroy http://www.safer-networking.org/en/home/index.html

Spyware Blaster http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/sbdownload.html
When asked to install TeaTimer, do so.

Phil Thien

03-12-2010, 11:16 PM

Phil,

Isn't that contradictory?

That was the point I am making that an AV product gives a false sense of security whereas good surfing practice works.

If you have kids then give them a computer and let them have at it. It is plain nuts to let kids have the computer that is used for your private stuff and work etc.

A local Senior's Center has/had (haven't been there for a few weeks) 9 complete computers for sale with 14" to 17" monitors, mouse, keyboards and OS ranging from ME to Vista for 35-bucks each. I got my 19" KDS CRT from there for $5.00 a year back and it is still going strong.

One of the local Thrift shops has some complete for $45 each. A local school is auctioning off about 50 next week or so, and they will go for $10 to $15 each if last year was anything to go by.

No, not contradictory.

Anti-virus software is little like birth control (99% effective). Use it, and you may still get a virus. Don't use it, and I guarantee you'll get a virus.

IMHO, there is really no equivalent to abstinence when it comes to using a PC on the Internet. If you visit web pages that have third-party content (that is, ads), you run the risk of infecting your machine. If you want to use search engines for legitimate research purposes, you run the very same risk.

In terms of giving the kids their own PC, the reality is that only works till that machine is infected and no longer usable. At that point, kids approach their parents and say they have a project they need to finish for school the next day. So the parents allow the kid to use the parents-only machine and when the kid is waiting for his paper to print, he starts cruising the net and infects the machine.

The best solution, IMHO, is to supply as bullet-proof a PC as possible for the kids to use, and make sure your own is secured, as well.

paul cottingham

03-13-2010, 12:29 AM

Linux.

Solve all your virus problems.

Greg Peterson

03-13-2010, 11:45 AM

No OS is immune. Didn't Google get hacked a while back by China? Perhaps my information is outdated but doesn't Google run Linux on their server farms?

What matters to the bad guys is the prize. PC's offer the lowest hanging fruit available. If the Mac OS was the dominant OS I guarantee you the bad guys would be hacking and infecting that OS.

If you have a choice between two exploits, one that compromises 99 out of 100 hundred machines, the other just 1 out of 100, which one would you choose?

Security is a game of cat and mouse. ITD's (Internet Transmitted Disease) exist and abstinence is not an option. Any solution is better than none, and no solution is 100%. However, a combination of best practices and common, or often times uncommon, sense is the best defense.

paul cottingham

03-13-2010, 12:50 PM

Hacking is not the same as virus immunity. The problem with Windows is the security model used by Windows. Processes run as superuser that have no business running that way, and it make Windows really vulnerable.

Also, the open source model makes it more likely for exploits to be found and patched quickly. Windows has an awkward model this way, and often well known exploits aren't patched for months.

Which is why the os's on most web servers (the majority run some form of *nix) don't get compromised by viruses (virii?:p), but instead are usually compromised by code bugs, which are inevitable, and are usually patched quickly.

The mail server software we use on all our web servers has never been exploited to my knowledge. The author even has a bounty for anyone who can find an exploit for it, and he is the kind of guy people gun for, as he rubs everyone the wrong way. It has never been collected. His software is open source. Windows can not make the same claim.

This is one of the reasons I like open source so much....many eyes on source code leads to much more stable, secure code.

just my opinion....