Another Garage DC Layout Question

[Ian Parish]

Sorry, I know one more DC layout question. I have really been trying to get my answer to this question and because of the permanent nature of my DC layout I am asking for opinions.

Background:
I have a new shop planned and construction has started. It's 38 x 50 / 56. In the rear corner by the Stairs Is where I have my Wood shop planned. The space is 16.5 feet wide, and on that side of the garage 56 feet long. This space will not all be used for wood shop but I can expand forward as needed. I currently have 2 Lathes, a Band saw, Chop saw, Drill press, and a Table saw. I currently have a HF 1.5hp DC with a thein baffle. Works well for 30 feet of temp hard wall pipe I have in the old shop. The lathes will go in the back corver, and the other saws along the wall with the table saw toward the front out in the open. (Other ideas welcome)

My main question is what size Pipe? This pipe is going in the ground under the concrete slab(Is this a good idea?), before the floor is poured. Thus the permanent nature of the DC piping. I am planning on using sdr35 pvc. Do I use a 6" all the way, 6 inch main line with 4 inch sub lines. Or can I get away with 4 inch pipe using one gate at a time and save a bunch of money?

From this picture, the Red Lines are the proposed DC lines. I will use wye's and 45's at compound angles to make the curves. The DC is in a closet under the stairs, which will have a whole filter wall to return air back to the shop in winter and vent outside in the summer.

Like I said the HF DC works good, but it may not be permenet. Do I need 6 inch pipe and 305HP Cyclone DC powered by a cummins tubro Diesel engine? to run this system. (joking but open to the idea of a bigger DC or cyclone in the furture.) I say build the right system and the power it as needed.

Thanks
Ian

[Eric DeSilva]

If you want to save money, use 6" S&D instead of S35. It is a lot cheaper.

I'd think really, really hard about burying my DC piping. I've never had a clog, but a clog under 3" of concrete could be a nightmare.

[Ian Parish]

If you want to save money, use 6" S&D instead of S35. It is a lot cheaper.

I'd think really, really hard about burying my DC piping. I've never had a clog, but a clog under 3" of concrete could be a nightmare.


Is 6" S&D PVC pipe, or is it that white pipe that is almost like corrugated cardboard. I will research prices, I am still reading and researching schedule 35 or sdr 35.

I am trying to decide if pipe under ground is a good idea. It just seems so slick. If I go around the walls I have the pipe exposed and need to go over the 8x8 garage door in the back, or up to the 15 foot ceiling, or suspend in the air above my head.

I am thinking a clog could be dealt with using a plumbers snake. How often and serious are DC clogs for you all?

Thanks,
Ian

[Mark Beall]

That's a mighty large garage, need to park a few buses?

Given you have 20'+ runs, I don't think that 4" pipe would cut it. Unfortunately you also might not get enough velocity in 6" pipe with that DC. What you really need is probably at least a 3-hp cyclone with 6" pipe.

Personally I wouldn't bury my DC pipe under concrete, just too many times I've decided to move things around to find that to be a good idea.

mark

[Eric DeSilva]

S&D is ASTM-2729; it is PVC plastic pipe. Just thinner walled than SD35. People here have used it for DC a lot and it seems to work just fine...

[Chris Padilla]

Burying is great...but 100% inflexible. I would worry a hair about clogs...it is hard to clog a 6" dia. pipe in a hobbyist shop.

Yep, 2729 works just fine...no worries.

[Ian Parish]

S&D is ASTM-2729; it is PVC plastic pipe. Just thinner walled than SD35. People here have used it for DC a lot and it seems to work just fine...

I am the proud owner of 50 feet of 6" 2729. I had a big issues with finding it. I called every place on this site (After searchs) and got price from $3.50 a foot, to I can get you a whole train car full but no less. so I thought I would pass this along.

Well W R White, or oldcastleprecast 4370 New Bingham Highway, West Jordan Utah was the winner. I got the pipe for 1.35 a foot. One of the pieces had a busted end so he help me on the price a bit. The inventory was low but they said they usually have it.

As for fittings, I could not find them local so mcmaster-Carr got an order from me for the fittings.

I have decided that I will continue with my plan and put some pipes in the ground under the concrete. Like my plan above I will have a pipe coming out of the ground at 7-10 foot intervals on the wall I plan to have most of my dust tools. If I move things around I will be changing the connections in the shop that lead to the main trunk lines in the ground. If I really change things and move the shop to the other side of the place then I guess I will just cap this stuff and call it a learning experience.

Thanks for all the input and help, I made the jump to 6 inch pipe and now realize i will need to get a bigger air mover.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Ian, if at all possible, you want to avoid 90 degree turns in your pipe, as the sharp turns will increase resistance. You might want to think about 45 degree fittings off the trunk and another 45 at the floor.

[Kent A Bathurst]

............ This pipe is going in the ground under the concrete slab(Is this a good idea?), before the floor is poured.....Like I said the HF DC works good, but it may not be permenet...........

I would absolutely LOVE to have my DC plumbing under the floor. Your runs won't be all that long - if you did get a clog, seems like it would be a simple matter to run some type of brush gizmo down through them. I'd go for it in a heartbeat, and never look back for a second. 6". Period.

I'd suggest you get the dimensions on something like an Oneida (or other brand - no dong in that fight) cyclone, and plan your layout so that you could upgrade in the future if you see the need (and I'm guessing you will). However - I do like your turbo deisel powered DC idea, but I think you should consider a Detroit Deisel, not the Cummins.

Last - if you were ever to get into serious flatwork, then a jointer + a planer would likely be in your future. Pretend you had them - where would they go? Should you consider running branches to, or near, those locations and cap them until needed?

[glenn bradley]

Another 2729 fan but, overhead pipe is soooo much easier to modify or add to. I want access to my mains as I have had enough things that will "never" change .. . . well, change. If my pipe were buried I would have had to stay where I was. Just food for thought.

[Jeff Mackay]

How much height do you have in the closet under the stairs? If you decide to buy a cyclone at some time in the future, it would be best if you had 8 feet or more if possible. Given the number of stairs in the plan, you're probably okay (assuming a 7.5" rise on the stairs). But you might be cramped for space to assemble the cyclone. Also, have you thought about exhausting the dust collector outside?

You might want to talk to your concrete contractor if you plan to bury the pipe beneath the slab. He'll probably balk at anything thinner than Schedule 40. And he may even balk at 6". I'm sure you wouldn't want your floor crumbling if you (or a future owner) decide to, for example, park a car or boat in the spot where you think the workshop will be now.

It looks like overhead pipes might be a problem because of the garage door on the right wall, so that probably isn't a real good option, unless you have 10 or 12 foot ceilings. What is the rest of the space going to be used for? Have you considered relocating the dust collection closet? You could always dig a trench to be covered with either wood or metal computer room flooring and run it the length of the building. That would give you much more flexibility in where you place machines in the future. I wish I would have done that when I built my shop a year and a half ago. Instead, I'll be stuck with overhead ducts.

Jeff

[Ian Parish]

How much height do you have in the closet under the stairs? If you decide to buy a cyclone at some time in the future, it would be best if you had 8 feet or more if possible. Given the number of stairs in the plan, you're probably okay (assuming a 7.5" rise on the stairs). But you might be cramped for space to assemble the cyclone. Also, have you thought about exhausting the dust collector outside?

You might want to talk to your concrete contractor if you plan to bury the pipe beneath the slab. He'll probably balk at anything thinner than Schedule 40. And he may even balk at 6". I'm sure you wouldn't want your floor crumbling if you (or a future owner) decide to, for example, park a car or boat in the spot where you think the workshop will be now.

It looks like overhead pipes might be a problem because of the garage door on the right wall, so that probably isn't a real good option, unless you have 10 or 12 foot ceilings. What is the rest of the space going to be used for? Have you considered relocating the dust collection closet? You could always dig a trench to be covered with either wood or metal computer room flooring and run it the length of the building. That would give you much more flexibility in where you place machines in the future. I wish I would have done that when I built my shop a year and a half ago. Instead, I'll be stuck with overhead ducts.

Jeff

Great comments, Thanks guys.

I am the concrete contractor, so I can only blame myself. I am going to put the pipe in the ground a few inches below the bottom of the concrete. and I will plan to reinforce with re-bar so I can drive over this pipe without worry. I am only going to use 45 degree elbows so the pipe coming up out of the ground will be at 45 degree angles to the horizon then a 45 to turn toward the machines. These main truck lines on the wall will be a good starting point for the DC system I plan to be able to move the above ground pipe around as I get new machines.

The ceiling in the shop will be 15foot high. so I can put above head pipes in without worry.

The ceiling of the DC closet will be hopefully be tall enough. I am thinking 7-8 feet high. I just looked at my plans and it's not specified. I can and do plan to vent outside the rear of the building when the weather permits. I Do not want to toss all my heat out in the winter.

The rest of the shop/garage/ building will be used as a Metal Fabrication shop, vehicle parking and or RV parking. Up stairs I plan to have a finishing room and an office.

I have a plumbers snake that maybe helpful if (sorry when) it clogs.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.....The ceiling of the DC closet will be hopefully be tall enough. I am thinking 7-8 feet high..........I have a plumbers snake that maybe helpful if (sorry when) it clogs.

Go 8' if you can - many, many future options for a cyclone that will fit in that space.

I don't know that the clog is a "when" at all. There are a lot of DC systems out there - home guys and pro guys - that have solid runs of metal or glued PVC - there is no law that says a DC systme has to clog, and it won't if you have the correct CFM and velocity FPM to keep the dust and bits + pieces in suspension enroute. Plus - you have a snake - when the sewer lines clog, people rarely go in with a hackhammer, they go in with a snake.

Tee it up - I like the approach.

[Robert Reece]

Hi Ian-

I put my dust collection lines under my basement floor. I used 6" SDR35 below grade and 2729 above grade. I went with the thicker stuff under grade because I was worried about it getting crushed while placing the concrete.

I ran the lines from the dust collector closet out to the far walls. I turned under the slab and up out of the slab with 90 long sweep elbows. During the pour, I put a 2-3' stub off pipe out of the underslab elbow to keep concrete from getting down in that pipe. I also wrapped the stub with two layers of carpet so I could remove that stub after the pour. It worked great. Since the pour, I have capped two of the stubs and they are waiting for future use.

I don't worry about clogs - I have a ClearVue cyclone and it doesn't yield anything. I dropped my 16' fat max tape measure down my miter bench dust collector, which runs under the slab. By the time I could say "Oh sh--" and look over at the dust collector, my fat max hit the trash can below the collector. Wow!

[Ian Parish]

I don't know that the clog is a "when" at all.

<Joking here>
The unforeseen factors in the equation are currently 5 and 6 years old. "Hey lets see what happens when we turn on that big sucker thing of Dads and put stuff in it. Here watch this"

8-)
Ian

[Ray Bell]

"The unforeseen factors in the equation are currently 5 and 6 years old".

That is funny! Ah yes, I remember those days. Now they are grown with kids of their own. I can only hope their kids are getting even for me;)

[Kent A Bathurst]

<Joking here>
The unforeseen factors in the equation are currently 5 and 6 years old. "Hey lets see what happens when we turn on that big sucker thing of Dads and put stuff in it. Here watch this"

8-)
Ian

Don't lose the snake :D

Famous last words - "Here - watch THIS!!"

Got any small cats, hamsters, etc? If so, the critters had best mind their manners. Unless you put in a 100hp cyclone with 30" main, little brothers won't fit.

[Eric McCune]

Ian,

Thanks for the S&D source in SLC. I talked to them on Monday and they said they carry SDR35 in 14 foot lengths. Hopefully when I go to pick it up on Friday they will have 2729 in 10 foot lengths.

I also wanted to say that McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com) is an amazing source for 6" fittings. Great prices and fast shipping with tracking. I placed my order on Sunday and it arrived on my porch Wednesday morning at 9:17am. Awesome.