Aligning the blade in a new contractor saw

[Jeremy Gibson]

I got my first "real" saw about a week ago - Grizzly G0444Z contractor saw - and I'm starting to try and align the blade with the miter slot. I've been all over the web and, of course, read the Grizzly instructions. I know I need to loosen 3 or 4 of the trunnion bolts and tap the assembly with a stick and hammer, but I have some questions:

Is it necessary or recommended to flip the saw upside down to move the assembly? (the Grizzly book says to do this, but I'm skeptical)

I can get the rear trunnion to move side-to-side, but the front doesn't. I have zero leverage once contorted under the legs so is there a better way?

If I use the stick/hammer approach, where to I put the end of the stick and do I do this from under or above the saw?

Can the hand wheel rods keep the front trunnion from moving? Do I need to somehow disconnect or loosen these?

After I finished the basic assembly I checked the alignment with a combo square and the back of the blade was to the left of the front by about 1/4", so I have a ways to go before getting to 0.001" with my dial indicator. I'm so far off right now that I haven't even started with the dial indicator yet.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Welcome to the 'Creek, Jeremy! I can't answer you alignment question but I'm sure there are others here at SMC that can....Again Welcome!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jeremy....if you don't get an immediate answer try sending a private message to Scott Stephans, a member here at SMC. He stated in another thread that has one of these saws and loves it.
See this thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13436
Good luck!

[Dave Wright #2]

Welcome to SMC. 1/4" out? Was that how it came from the factory? Man! That's so far out that the traditional approach may not be enough.

My Delta Contractors Saw arrived 0.015" out. That's close enough that the front trunnion can stay in place. Only the rear needs to be shifted. You aren't changing the relationship of the trunnion arcs enough to cause any damage. The adjustment may actually make the arcs closer to alignment.

The traditional approach is to loosen the rear trunnion bolts, tap the trunnion whichever direction it needs to move, and attempt to clamp it in position while you snug the bolts back down. Done correctly, this alignment might never need to be done again.

The problem is that the trunnion shifts as the bolts are tightened. This problem is cured by holding the trunnion in position with a set of PALS. It's been years since I looked for them. Mine were bought through Woodcraft. Don't know about now, but at the time they came in Delta and Jet/clone flavors. $2 of hardware sold for $20 but worth their weight in gold because they make this adjustment trivial.

A dial indicator cannot align your blade as accurately as a piece of wood and your miter gauge. Dial indicator = static measurement. Actual cuts are dynamic, and the saw's alignment is slightly different under power. My saw, for example, pulls to the side about 0.003" when running.

Here's how you do the dynamic alignment check. Clamp or screw a scrap of wood centered on your miter gauge. Set your blade to full height. Cut off one end by running the gauge in the right slot with light pressure applied on the bar sideways toward the blade. Cut off the other end by running in the left slot with light pressure toward the blade again. Now slide both cut ends past all four "corners" of the blade (front/right, rear/right, front/left, and rear/left). The cut end passing by the blade should make a light rubbing or ringing sound. The sound should be the same for all four corners. Differences in the sound will tell you which direction to shift the trunnion for your next test.

Best of luck with your saw. 1/4" out? I would call Griz before working on it. Sounds defective.

Regards,

Dave

[Greg Narozniak]

Congrats on the saw and there is no reason to flip it over. When I had my Powermatic 64a before I got the PALS system the way i would align it was to use a good fit piece of oak in the miter slot and then another piece of oak 90 degrees attached to it and a brass screw on the end that touches the blade. Choose 1 tooth and make it with pencil or crayon and check it in the front and back.

I only had to loosen the TWO REAR trunnion bolts to move the whole assembly to the left or right. The Key was to not loosen the bolt too much then using a Piece of a 2 x 4 and a hammer to move the rear of the trunnion assembly the way it needs to go all the while checking with the oak and brass screw dohickey. When it evenly scraps the same tooth in the front and the back slowly snug the the two rear bolts down altenating and going very slowly to keep it from moving rechecking all the while.

The other trick is to use a clamp to clamp the Trunnion assembly to the table and then do the adjustment to keep it from moving.

I hope I have not completely confused you Check with Inline Industries of a PALS system is available for your saw ( I bet there is) It will make you life a lot easier in this task.

http://www.in-lineindustries.com/saw_pals.html

here is how they describe tuning

http://www.in-lineindustries.com/alineit-test3.html

[Chris Padilla]

A dial indicator cannot align your blade as accurately as a piece of wood and your miter gauge. Dial indicator = static measurement. Actual cuts are dynamic, and the saw's alignment is slightly different under power. My saw, for example, pulls to the side about 0.003" when running.
This is very interesting, Dave. I wouldn't think putting the saw into action should change things at all. Does the nickel test mean anything?

I would further think, if you are correct, that a saw under load would also react differently...even so far as cutting pine vs. hard maple or a crosscut vs. ripcut. Heck, I hear al the time that the back of the fence should be out slightly away from the blade (parallel) to help with pinching and kickback problems. Even the European saws don't have a fence beyond the blade.

My point? I guess 3 mil is nothing much to worry about whether you align it dynamically or statically. I'm guessing the alignment changes all the time for all sorts of reasons...if you are correct. :)

[Dave Wright #2]

Chris,

I noticed this when aligning my saw. Dead on with same tooth checked with a good dial indicator. Do my cutoff test and the saw proves to be slightly out. I used the PALS to shift the rear trunnion .003 the opposite direction (took several tries to find the position actually), and then got perfect cutoffs.

My guess matches yours - that the alignment varies with wood species, grain, and feed rate. I've been happy with mine after doing the dynamic exercise though. I wasn't happy with it before. Maybe my saw's unusual. Maybe not. It passes the nickel test. A penny (thinner than a nickel) stands up while the saw is running too.

On fence alignment: I run mine dead parallel to the blade and miter slots. I may get somewhat more scratchy cuts in some situations, but the stock never tries to pull away from the fence and my Bies scale is accurate regardless of blade height.

I've heard that about European saws, and can't figure it out. I'm just too used to keeping my stock tight to the fence all the way past the blade, and doubt my ability to end a rip perfectly straight without that crutch.

Best,

Dave

[Ted Shrader]

Jeremy -

Welcome to the Creek. Great place to exchange ideas. Pull up a stump and sit a while.

The others have given the correct technique for the alignment. However, with the saw ¼" out of alignment, you might try loosening all four bolts and shaking the trunion to get it centered. At that point, it ought to be a lot closer. If it doesn't get any closer, call Grizzly tech support. They should be able to help you.

If it does get closer to alignment, snug (but not tighten) one one of the front bolts and adjust the back of the trunnion with the block of wood and a hammer.

Good luck,
Ted

[Jeremy Gibson]

I sent an email to Grizzly tech support and got a phone call response the next day. The technician suggested I use a pry bar or pipe to bear down on the front trunnion and get it to move, but said I shouldn't have to remove to adjust the blade angle wheel/rod to do it. So back under the saw I go, but still no better.:mad:

I got my wife to help me flip the saw over again and this time I removed the rear trunnion bracket completely and took out the entire arbor assembly. Now I was left with just the front trunnion bracket and that pesky angle adjustment rod. I have confirmed that the rod is limiting the front trunnion bracket from moving all the way to the left. There is a split pin outside the case on that rod that fits into the hand wheel (like a key) so that turning the wheel turns the rod. I have removed the pin and the trunnion bracket moves all the way, but the pin hole is now within a small cast bracket. My thought was to remove the bracket and grind down the nipple so that the entire thing is slimmer. Then the split pin will again be exposed.

This is a new saw, so my wife was insistant that I call Grizzly back before doing any more to it. I guess my view is that either the bracket gives or the rod is too short. It also has two collars with set screws to adjust the "play" between the rod gear and the trunnion gear. One of these is so tight it barely moves with plyers and the other only moves 1/4 of the way around the rod and 1/2 back and forth. I can't remove the rod entirely because of these. If Grizzly determined that the rod was too short I'd have to take a hacksaw to the rod to get it out - also not good with a new saw.

This isn't a rant against Grizzly, just wanted to share my status.

[Chris Padilla]

Jeremy,

You shouldn't have to start using a hacksaw on a brand new TS to get it tuned up!!! I agree with your wife...give Grizzly tech-support another chance and then insist they send you a new one if it still isn't working. Do you have any pics you'd like to share? They are always worth 10,000 words! :D

[Jeremy Gibson]

No pics as I don't have a digital camera. I'm still in the dark ages with that technology and use film

[Jeremy Gibson]

Update from Grizzly:

I called their tech support (very nice guy) and explained what was happening. After taking the under carriage appart I'm convinced I needed either a longer rod to adjust the blade angle or grind down the bracket attached to the case that the rod runs through. Both Grizzly and I agreed to start by grinding the bracket, but to prevent warranty issues he's sending me a new bracket to store in case of other issues. He also suggested I elongate the rear trunnion bracket holes so it has more travel, and is sending me a new bracket as well. Other than this issue it looks and feels like a good saw.

I'll try to snap some pics of the results. I'm still on film so I'll have to wait for development and digitizing to CD.

[Chris Padilla]

I would have made Grizzly send me a new TS but that is me. I can't imagine why a brand-new saw would need such a "dramatic" modification to work properly. Are you sure there isn't some flaw elsewhere that might get you down the road? Surely all of these saws from Grizzly don't have this problem. Either way, good luck to you, Jeremy.

[Dave Wright #2]

Jeremy,

You've been a saint about this problem. It's way past time for the saw to go back to Grizzly. I'm shocked that tech support wouldn't have told you to send back the saw. There are plenty of people out there who report positive experiences with Grizzly tools, but I'll remember this tale whenever I get tempted to save some money and buy Griz instead of mainstream brands.

You might want to mention to Grizzly that this experience is being posted where hundreds of potential customers will read it.

Best of Luck,

Dave

[Jeremy Gibson]

I sent Grizzly customer service an email explaining the issues I've been having and asking to start the process to exchange this saw. The next day I had a Return Authorization # in my inbox and a package with instructions for the shipping company on the way. On Monday I'll call to verify what they are doing and paying for, exactly, and then getting this saw shipped back. I'm assuming that when they receive this saw they will ship out a replacement - all to be confirmed tomorrow on the phone.

Like most purchases made that require shipping instead of a local store, the waiting will be the worst part. I'm convinced I have a defective saw but so far Grizzly has been easy to work with.

[Jeremy Gibson]

I sent an email to the Grizz cust support line explaining my problems and asking for an exchange. Without question, they sent me an RA# and a bill of lading for the freight company - COD. I disassembed and repacked the saw and it was on its way back to Missouri. Today a replacement came.

This time I only assembed the legs and cleaned the top before checking for blade alignment to the left miter slot. To my delight it is only 0.012 out of alignment. Now to mount the motor and start tweaking.

I wasn't too thrilled to begin with since this was my first Grizz purchase, but with them paying for return shipping and to send a new unit they are living up to their high support reputation. I've got to make some adjustments to the 220 in the garage before I can turn it on, but that should be minor.

[Jeremy Gibson]

It's confirmed, the original saw was the problem. The replacement has just been aligned to 0.001" with the miter slot :D - and without the PALS system. Just a light tap with a dead-blow hammer and a scrap of pine. Thanks to everyone who told me to hang in there and get a new saw from Grizzly.

[Ted Shrader]

Jeremy -

Great news! Glad you got the exchange made and the new one is up and running. An occassional dud gets through every now and then, but all is well now. :)

Regards,
Ted