It's too bad...

[David DeCristoforo]

...when a contentious subject is brought up on the Creek and the thread turns into a nasty argument and the mods have to delete it. These discussions could be very constructive even if there is never a true meeting of the minds.

[David Prince]

I see it is gone. :confused:

[John Harden]

Argument? I didn't see anyone arguing. Differences of opinion, yes, but everyone seemed to be pretty civil.

Having said that, I think something like that should best live in the Off Topic section. Its not really a "General Woodworking" sort of discussion. Rather than delete it, it might have been wiser to have just moved it.

The subject definitely pertains to WW'ing, so the topic will pop up again and again. There's another thread active in OT, at least for the moment. :D

That's my .02 anyway.

Regards,

John

[Ken Fitzgerald]

When people resort to name calling...insulting each other it 1) violates the Terms Of Service 2) diminishes the value of the thread 3) it is no longer a discussion but an uncivil sophomoric rant that doesn't belong here.

When the amount of time it takes to edit a thread to make it civil outweighs the value of the information in the thread, it gets moved.

BTW....I didn't move it but I was getting ready to do it. I was replying to a member who had reported it.

[Peter Quinn]

Huhh. What I miss? Good ole nanna nanna boo style argument? I do love watching grown men devolve into third graders. Sorry I missed that.

[John Harden]

I agree with you if it got into name calling. I never saw that, but then again, I never read the whole thread.

I'm a member of a motorcycle forum that typically has 3000-4000 members online at any one time, from all over the world. As you an imagine, it can get pretty nasty.

Mods over there are darn quick to move things to the OT section when necessary. They even have a Church/State/Money secton within OT. I never go there, but the tales are legendary. Even OT isn't enough at times and they just begin banning people and deleting threads.

The interweb can be a crazy place at times.

[Maurice Ungaro]

I agree with you if it got into name calling. I never saw that, but then again, I never read the whole thread.

I'm a member of a motorcycle forum that typically has 3000-4000 members online at any one time, from all over the world. As you an imagine, it can get pretty nasty.

Mods over there are darn quick to move things to the OT section when necessary. They even have a Church/State/Money secton within OT. I never go there, but the tales are legendary. Even OT isn't enough at times and they just begin banning people and deleting threads.

The interweb can be a crazy place at times.

I guess that is one of the things that has made Sawmill Creek such a welcome haven - we rarely had people resorting to such behavior. I hope it does not happen again anytime soon.

[Bruce Page]

The Off Topic forum has the same rules of civility as any other forum at SMC. Moving the thread there was not an option.

[Chuck Isaacson]

If you are talking about the thread that I started, then yes it is too bad. I didnt even get to read all of the posts as to why it was shutdown.. That sucks...

[John Harden]

If you are talking about the thread that I started, then yes it is too bad. I didnt even get to read all of the posts as to why it was shutdown.. That sucks...

I never saw any insults between SC members either, but like I said, I never read the whole thing, and posts can hit very quickly.

Not to worry though. This subject will be around as long as the lawsuits keep getting filed. In other words, it'll be around a L O N G time. ;)

Regards,

John

[Russell Tribby]

...when a contentious subject is brought up on the Creek and the thread turns into a nasty argument and the mods have to delete it. These discussions could be very constructive even if there is never a true meeting of the minds.

I couldn't agree more David. Some of these discussions remind me of my students who have not yet learned to disagree in a civil manner. I belong to a couple of other forums that do not edit posts as quickly as our mods do here. I have to say that I appreciate the work that is done on this forum by its moderators. I think too many people hide behind the anonymity that a keyboard offers. When threads start to get nasty they've got no place on a woodworking forum.

[Cody Colston]

Yeah, too bad. I posted an opinion (no name calling) and went to another forum. When I came back to copy the link to the story, it had been removed.

However, it didn't take a rocket scientist to know that the thread would be short-lived, especially here at SMC. IMHO, it was more about social/legal conditions than it was about woodworking. Throw in the connection to Sawstop and it probably reached critical mass very quickly.

For the record, there are five pages of posts on the same topic over at Woodnet. I guess their terms of service aren't as restrictive.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Cody....and then you have a former roughneck for a Moderator and we know what kind of personality that takes!:rolleyes::D

[John Harden]

I think too many people hide behind the anonymity that a keyboard offers.

Couldn't agree more. I stand by what I write. My login in name is my real name on every forum I'm a member of, including offroading, motorcycle, pickemup trucks, and lots of gun forums (how do you spell redneck??). :D

I think it was an old WW or truck forum, maybe 10 years ago, that required members to use their real name. Don't remember who it was, but I never lost the habit.

Regards,

John

[Bruce Page]

Cody....and then you have a former roughneck for a Moderator and we know what kind of personality that takes!:rolleyes::D

Aw Ken, you're just a big teddy bear. :D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Well...Bruce...you got the big part right.....

and frankly I'm getting too old to work floors on an oil rig and have always been scared of heights so being a derrick hand wasn't even an option. My meat hooks used to leave fingerprints in steel whenever I had to go up in the derrick to help the derrick hand retrieve a drill collar that got away from him!

[Tom Veatch]

... My meat hooks used to leave fingerprints in steel whenever I had to go up in the derrick to help the derrick hand retrieve a drill collar that got away from him!

(and getting seriously off topic)

Yeah, but you did it. And that's the mark of courage. Too many people equate fearlessness with courage. 'Tain't so. Courage is working through the fear to perform the mission. Don't take courage to do something you're not afraid to do.

[Richard Dragin]

Shouldn't this thread be in the off topic section? How ironic.

[Joe Leigh]

I'm not so sure the deletion was called for. I read every post in that thread and I know the post that instigated it's removal. The poster did respond fervidly and was posting his opinion as were others, he even offered to show where others could obtain the same info that preceded his emotional response. Did he push the envelope? Maybe. But he obviously is a passionate woodworker, as are many of us .This is a topic that could potentially have great financial impact on each one of us and one that I believe needs further discussion here.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe,

The thread had deteriorated to people calling other people names. That type of incivility violates the TOS here at SMC and will not be allowed.

Once peoples emotions or actions deteriorate to that level there is little informational exchange happening. It just becomes a juvenile shouting match.

IF people could discuss it and allow others to have a dissenting opinion and be treated respectfully in that opinion the discussion would have continued.

Unfortunately some don't play nicely.

When it becomes too much work to edit a thread, we just move it as it's value no longer warrants the work involved.

[Joe Cunningham]

They even have a Church/State/Money secton within OT. I never go there, but the tales are legendary. Even OT isn't enough at times and they just begin banning people and deleting threads.

The interweb can be a crazy place at times.

ADV. :D Those threads get pretty nasty. I for one am glad SMC keeps things on a tight leash, I really don't like wading through lots of bickering to get information.

[Paul Steiner]

I teach high school shop class, i get enough of name calling at work. +1 for the mods keeping it civil.

[Mitchell Andrus]

None of you have any idea how vile and hateful a forum can get until you've been to a certain saxophone player's forum.

Musicians are a self-centered, opinionated bunch and the poop REALLY hits the fan when you even hint that the axe, mouthpiece, reed, music that someone 's been playing all of their life, sucks.

Flame-retardant suits are sold wholesale there, and the vendors sell hot dogs, beer and popcorn to the spectators.

.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

...when a contentious subject is brought up on the Creek and the thread turns into a nasty argument and the mods have to delete it. These discussions could be very constructive even if there is never a true meeting of the minds.

I agree David. Things seemed reasonably civil when I last checked in, but it appears things went downhill. My apologies for raising a contentious thread, I though it would foster some good discussion.

[John Harden]

ADV. :D Those threads get pretty nasty.

Yeah. Every once in awhile I'll poke my head in CSM, though I never post. People there can be, shall we say, passionate? :cool:

[Greg Pavlov]

...when a contentious subject is brought up on the Creek and the thread turns into a nasty argument and the mods have to delete it. These discussions could be very constructive even if there is never a true meeting of the minds.


It's also too bad when you find one of your posts erased without any clue from the moderator as to why.

[Clarence Miller]

is this the lawsuit thread?

[Dave Johnson29]

is this the lawsuit thread?

I am guessing so as I had a couple of posts that have gone missing. Last night when I quit it was pretty benign I thought.

The Mods should just lock it so we can see what we shouldn't be doing. :D;)

I wonder if the Mods contact the offending parties to let them know they crossed a line. If not, it seems like a futile step just deleting it and pretending the thread never existed.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I will caution everyone about commenting about Moderator's activities in public.

Keith has made it perfectly clear Moderator activities will not be discussed in public. If you have a disagreement, use PMs or emails to discuss it.

We never DELETE a thread. They are just moved to the Moderator's Forum where they are not viewable by the general public.

We never really delete a post. The post is not there for public viewing but we can see it...even if a Member or Contributor deletes his own post...be aware...it's still there.....just not viewable by the general public. We can see it.

I didn't move that thread last night. I was too busy responding to a member who had reported it. I would have moved it once I was finished replying to the Member or Contributor.

Moderators are invited unpaid volunteers. Most of us, if not all of us, have full time jobs. Keith and Jackie Outten, owners/administrators...have full time jobs and a business to run. The point is the entire staff is busy.

In cases where we have time, when we edit an individual post for a MAJOR violation, we PM that person explaining what was edited and why.

In cases where I remove inappropriate language/obscenties/profanties...minor abuses get edited and no notification. Major uses of profanities will be notified.....again if I have the time.

In the case of the that thread.....there was a level of incivility by enough posters that 1) it was no longer an exchange of ideas 2) it is unreasonable to expect an individual communication concerning that thread.

In short...you can disagree without being insulting ...or resorting to childish name calling.

[Paul Ryan]

I submitted a post last night that I thought may have ruffled a few feathers. But it was directed to no one in general and there was no name calling. Right after posting I went to bed so I was never able to read how it was responded to. I am a big boy and can handle a little debate. But if it wasn't ment to be than so be it. I understand the terms and conditions and try not to break them. If attacks get personal it doesn't need to be here, but if we disagree that should be allowed.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Paul,

Nobody is saying you can't disagree with someone. What we as Moderators are saying it will be done within the Terms Of Service which means a certain level of civility will prevail or we will close or edit the thread or post at our discretion.

[Clarence Miller]

I serve as a moderator in other groups. I have never had to do anything with editing or dealing with the behavior of the members but I have much smaller groups. I also am in charge of some historical re-enactment events in my area where I do have to deal with name calling, profanities, egos, and the luxury of dealing with inebriated individuals on a personal basis. Making judgments on ending debate that has devolved and other things is not an easy job. You always seem to have somebody angry with you and there is always somebody to offer their opinion on your actions. It is a thankless job for the most part.
I am new to this forum but am thoroughly enjoying it. The helpful hints that I have received thus far are a testament to the general good will of all and what I assume is the foundation of why this group was created.
My hat is off to the people who make this possible. Thank-you.

[Greg Pavlov]

I am guessing so as I had a couple of posts that have gone missing. Last night when I quit it was pretty benign I thought. ......

It was the second one: the thread is still there and there are additional posts to it since I put in mine but mine disappeared. I'm not against censorship on public sites for policy infractions because, as others have pointed out, things can get out of hand and ruin a site over time, but I would like an explanation of some sort even if its a checkoff list with an "X" next to whatever I was judged to be culpable of.

[Greg Pavlov]

Apparently the following effectively said that Ken was the person who deleted the post. It turns out that that is not the case, and I apologize for my error.



It's also too bad when you find one of your posts erased without any clue from the moderator as to why.

[Jeff Dorlan]

I agree with Dave. It is confusing to not know why a post has been deleted. It would help to know what the 'infraction' was.

I agree with Mr. Ryan, as well. I posted an innocent comment as I went to bed, too. I woke up and the thread was gone. I figured something had devolved. We're adults and we should be able to disagree and comment as such (obviously without threats and personal attacks). It is amazing, and I don't think I'll ever get it...why do people have such a problem with SawStop? Why do people care so much? This is not politics. We are woodworkers and this is either vocation or recreation...maybe both.

Maybe we shouldn't be allowed to discuss tablesaw safety or dust collection science. It's kind of ridiculous, isn't it? :cool:

[Greg Pavlov]

I agree with Dave. It is confusing to not know why a post has been deleted. It would help to know what the 'infraction' was.

Living in the U.S., it's also spooky to have posts disappear from a thread without a trace or any mention, as though they never existed.

[Glenn Clabo]

It is the policy of SMC that moderation actions will not be discussed in public. We do that because it just opens the door for more screaming and yelling...like usual...censorship...freedom of speech...heavy handed moderators...etc.

However...I will try to explain and then close this thread.

I was the one who moved the thread to the moderators forum. When I pulled it was 0300 here and I was on an iphone...so I didn't really feel like fighting with anyone on my iphone trying to explain why I felt it had to be pulled. Besides...most of those who felt compelled to jump in have been told many times they were crossing the line...

Why did I feel it needed to be moved to the mod forum and discussed??? Did everyone read all the posts? Did everyone REALLY believe it was just an adult discussion between a couple of grownups? Well if you did you REALLY don't understand that discussing things here on SMC is not just between a couple of friends...it's spread all over the world and yes...YOU and SMC are liable for what you say. I could have deleted posts and tried to make the thread make sense...but...I really do have a life. So...just so you know...If we don't pull threads that include statements that are unsubstantiated we (read Keith and his family) have to deal with the repercussions. Calling people "scum bags"...and making unsubstantiated claims of knowledge...is not adult and could cause us all problems.

How many of you actually read the lawsuit before they posted anything here in front of the world? Do you have any idea that YOU could be liable for what you say here? Check out page 8 here if you don't believe SMC and YOU can be...




http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia04/pubcom/reducept3.pdf





Also...just so people understand..."locking" a thread keeps it in public for ever. When a thread is moved to the mod forum it removes it from public viewing and the ability to "google" it... which MAY or may not keep you from liability for your public statements.