Hand Plane Sole Flatness

[Matt Van Heiden]

I just acquired two older Stanley planes- 4 (type 11) & 5 (type 18), and am in the process of tuning them. I have started to lap the soles, but found them to be pretty flat already. My definition of flat is that I can not get a 0.0015" gauge between the sole and the flat surface. However, there is an exception on both planes. On the front I can stick a 0.004 to 0.005" gauge in about 1/4" of an inch. The 0.0015" gauge will go in about 3/4" to 1" in this location. Before I spend time trying to get the entire sole flat, I just wanted to ask if I was being too anal. I sort of think I am, but not sure since hand tools are new to me. thanks for any responses.

[Bill Houghton]

I just wanted to ask if I was being too anal.

I personally think you are being just a bit anal, yes.

the test is how they plane. I wouldn't worry about what you're seeing.

[Sean Hughto]

As a general matter, the entire sole need not be perfectly flat. Rather, a few key spots need to be coplaner - the toe, heel, and front of the mouth. A few thousandths at the first quarter inch of the toe is nothing to worry about in a smoother, and evn less so in a jack. And as Bill says, see how they cut. A huge fraction of the performance of any plane is the sharpness of it's blade. Uber flatness of the sole is nice, especially for a smoother, but hardly critical in most operations. Also, it's very easy to mess up a sole with hand lapping. I'd wager many more have been messed up than perfected by hand lapping. To do it right, really requires a machinist and the right equipment, especially for larger bench planes (as opposed to say block planes).

[Matt Radtke]

To do it right, really requires a machinist and the right equipment, especially for larger bench planes (as opposed to say block planes).

So, the gentlemen at Sauer and Steiner are doing it wrong then? :D
http://www.sauerandsteiner.com/news/2007/09/lapping-sucks.html

All you /really/ need to lap properly is

a) a suitable surface
b) abrasive
c) time
d) energy

Though I will agree that it is easy to mess up if you're not paying attention to what you're doing.

[Tony Shea]

Good god those Sauer and Steiner planes are expensive. Just can't imagine throwing down that kind of cash for a plane. You'd have to do a serious amount of work with those things to get their value back. But they are nice just something I will never own in a lifetime.

[Matt Van Heiden]

I was hoping to here that I was being anal cause I really didn't want to go that far. I would have tried it out first, but they needed a little work. So I thought i would do everything in one shot then try them out. Almost done- been anxious to see how they work.

One last question- is it critical that the chip breaker be flat and contact the hole blade? I was thinking the critical part was it being flat across its width at the bottom where the curled part is. Probably a silly question but I want to make sure so I don't have to do it again.

[David DeCristoforo]

"So, the gentlemen at Sauer and Steiner are doing it wrong then?"

"Good god those Sauer and Steiner planes are expensive..."

Expensive indeed. But if one were to be as... well... to be blunt and state it as the OP did, "anal", as those guys are about their plane making, one could easily understand their need to create a perfectly flat sole. I for one would be not too happy if I dropped that kind of dough on a hand plane and was expected to lap the sole flat myself!

[Sean Hughto]

Matt, did you read that entry? Special paper, special stations, counting strokes, special stopping to check flat and square every x strokes, special strokes, experience required, etc. etc.

[Ron Brese]

It is true that there is a method to this work and it is easy to make a plane sole worse than when you begin. Everyone has natural tendencies when they plane. Most will tend to put more pressure on one side of the tool than the other. Some will put more pressure on the toe and some the heel.The same tendencies come into play when they attempt to lap a plane sole. You need to know what results your natural tendencies produce.

Not only do you need to perform a regular inspection of your progress, but you need to rotate the tool to offset your natural tendencies to apply more pressure to one side than the other and you also need to learn where the pressure in the stroke needs to be applied.

The condition of the sole can also have a lot to do with your chances of success. If the sole is convex then it's going to be a real problem. It can be lapped however a surface grinder makes a great problem solver for this situation.

Lapping a sole precisely flat is a skill in and of itself. When folks see one of my planes take a full width sub .001 shaving at different shows I often wonder if they realize what physical factors have to be present to do this consistently. The sole has to be precisely flat, the iron has to be sharpened to a high degree and quite flat across it's edge, and every part of the tool has to fit together so precisely that nothing within the planes moves but the shaving. Oh... and the planets have to align at that precise moment. Okay I was kidding about the planets aligning thing.:D

You might not want to find about your natural tendencies while attempting to lap the pre WW2 #4 that was passed down thru your family to you. Buy a junker and have a go with that first.

Ron Brese

[Matt Van Heiden]

Sean, I did read that entry. I thought I was being anal, but I'm sure this type of attention detail is why their planes turn out so great and probably never have disatisfied customers. For my planes I put some sandpaper down on my powered jointer bed and lapped the sole enough to get it as described in my first post. I was really hoping I didn't need to go beyond that for reasons Ron described. That was the reason I asked. I did lap the frog, blade, chipbreaker, and squared the mouth tonight. Made a few test runs and I am really satisfied with the post war plane. Especially since I haven't put any effort into squaring and sharpening the blade above 600 grit. It is producing cosistent thickness shaves of about 0.002".

[Jim Koepke]

I was hoping to here that I was being anal cause I really didn't want to go that far. I would have tried it out first, but they needed a little work. So I thought i would do everything in one shot then try them out. Almost done- been anxious to see how they work.

One last question- is it critical that the chip breaker be flat and contact the hole blade? I was thinking the critical part was it being flat across its width at the bottom where the curled part is. Probably a silly question but I want to make sure so I don't have to do it again.

Matt,

Welcome to the Neander World.

If you are getting 0.002" shavings with 600 grit, you are doing pretty darn good.

I have a lot of planes that have not had their soles lapped. Because of recently fixing up planes that need lapping to remove pits left by rust and other problems I have done a lot recently. If a plane is performing well, there are a lot of other things to do to tune it up before trying to fix a sole that may not need fixing. A good sharp blade does so much to improve performance on almost any plane. I think to get better than what you already have, you will need to pick up some finer grit abrasive sheets or an 8000 water stone. Though I have known 600 grit to act like a finer grit as it wears from use.

The cap iron should make flat contact as much as possible at the tip where it rests on the blade. It should come fairly close to contact over most of the rest of its length. If it has too much spring, it will tend to cause the blade to lift off of the frog. For more information check this:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1158886#poststop

That is just a part of the thread on the cap iron or chip breaker. There is a lot more information in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs that is worth reading.

jim

[Matt Radtke]

Matt, did you read that entry? Special paper, special stations, counting strokes, special stopping to check flat and square every x strokes, special strokes, experience required, etc. etc.

Yup, read it, but there isn't anything super special about any of it. His lapping stations are some marble on a wooden cart. His paper is automotive paper--pretty sure I could grab a box of it today at AutoZone. To check for square, get a square. Add in that blarg entry and I suspect that anyone with some SIMPLE equipment and some care could do a very reasonable job flattening their plane sole.

[James Taglienti]

I have never had good luck lapping any plane soles bigger than a #3 they always come out convex.

[David Keller NC]

Yup, read it, but there isn't anything super special about any of it. His lapping stations are some marble on a wooden cart. His paper is automotive paper--pretty sure I could grab a box of it today at AutoZone. To check for square, get a square. Add in that blarg entry and I suspect that anyone with some SIMPLE equipment and some care could do a very reasonable job flattening their plane sole.

The equipment is simple, the skill necessary to employ it to achieve the the results that Konrad gets is not - keep in mind that he flattens the planes of soles for a living - he's done at least several hundred.

[David Keller NC]

Good god those Sauer and Steiner planes are expensive. Just can't imagine throwing down that kind of cash for a plane. You'd have to do a serious amount of work with those things to get their value back. But they are nice just something I will never own in a lifetime.

You might change your mind later on - the comparison for a S&S plane is an antique Norris in superb, almost-unheard-of condition and Karl Holtey's planes. Konrad's planes look somewhat cheap in comparison.

[Matt Radtke]

The equipment is simple, the skill necessary to employ it to achieve the the results that Konrad gets is not - keep in mind that he flattens the planes of soles for a living - he's done at least several hundred.

I don't want to put myself in the same ballpark, league, or sport as Konrad, but statements that imply, "You can't do RANDOM_TASK. Only a professional can. If you even try it, you will fail, your dog die, and your wife will leave you," really annoy me.

Very few things in this world are rocket science. If you want to learn how to do a task, you read a book or search the web. Then you practice, you get better at the task, and ta-da, it is completed in a manner that you are proud of.

Now there are a few things in this world that should only be attempted by skilled professionals. However, for everything else, my experience has shown me that the difference between the work done by a professional and just some guy who cares what he is doing, is how quickly and efficiently the professional works. Their experience and specialized tools let them crank out finished product much faster than the layman. To compare me to Konrad, perhaps he could lap the sole of 10-15 Stanley 4s (or more!) in the time it would take me to do 1. Doesn't mean I can't do it or that I'm bad at it, just really slow compared to him.

Or perhaps we should only let professionals change the oil in cars, frame houses, make furniture, program computers, or publish works.

/rant.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Something like lapping plane sole is actually in a very specialized area of machine production. While plane sole might not set the bench mark of close and tight tolerance, those who do lapping for living can and do lap a surface (much larger or longer than a plane sole) in the range of +/- couple microns. If it's not just speed, but when accuracy and tolerance is required, you can't really put random amateur next to a skilled person and expect the same result. Getting tolerance in the 0.001" range, however, might be a reachable goal for anyone who can practice. But more than that, I doubt it would be an achievable goal for ordinary joe who does it for fun once a week.

[Sean Hughto]

Methinks you are being a bit hyperbolic in that first statement. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that no one should ever lap a sole. Instead, all I meant was that it's not that hard for the inexperienced to mess one up, expecially on longer planes.

If you substitute for "Random_Task" something like wiring your shop, or soldering copper fittings, or running natural gas lines to your grill, etc., I don't disagree that amateurs can and do accomplish these sorts fo things. I don't think it would be out of line telling someone planning to take one of these tasks on for the first time about the risks of messing it up.

[Matt Radtke]

Sam: I agree. flat within micron: near impossible for an amateur, impossible. Flat enough for hand planes, completely doable.

Sean: Yes, perhaps a little melodramatic. I happened to have a conversation recently about what a amateur can/cannot and should/should not do recently. The topic still rubs me raw, to say the least. Sorry for going overboard.