My view of the SawStop

[Glenn Vaughn]

It seems that every time the Saw Stop is brought up it creates a debate as to whether or not the saw is worth the cost (and does the brake actually reduce the safety by causing less safe practices).


The cost issue is, in my opinion, not a big deal. The quality of the saw is, in my opinion, excellent. I have the contractor and paid just under $2200 for the saw and the option I purchased. Some will say this is way too high. The quality of the saw is better than any contractor I have looked at. As for the cost; for what I am getting, it seems to be a good deal. To put it in perspective compare the cost of accessories. I just ordered the DowelMax kit which cost $310. If I figure the weight of the DowelMax at 2.5 pounds it works out to $120 a pound. The Saw Stop weighs 350 pounds – at $120 a pound that would be $42,000. The base price of the Saw Stop is actually about 5 times the cost of the DowelMax – I am sure there is much more than 5 times the machining and definitely more than 5 times the material in the saw.


When a company has a monopoly on a product it is quite often reflected in the cost of the product. Look at the pharmaceutical industry. I currently can buy generic Zantax for $4 for 65 pills. Before the generic became available (read that as the patent expired) it cost about $3 a pill. Saw Stop appears to be responsive to the consumer and competition when it comes to pricing.

The safety issue seems to be the one that is the most divisive. The nay-Sayers contend that all that is needed is safe working habits. There is no doubt that many accidents are caused by unsafe actions, many more are caused by momentary lapses of attention. Like many others have said, I find that I am more careful of what I am doing on the saw even though it is “safer” than my old one.


I seriously doubt that any of us can truthfully say that we have never been distracted. Concentrating on a task can make us more vulnerable to being startled by a sudden loud noise. Instinct has us turn our attention to whatever startled us – a potential accident in the making. A piece of debris on the floor can cause a slip. Many things can happen that are unexpected causing distraction.


Personally I view the brake the same as any other safety device – it is there to add a layer of protection and hopefully it will never be called upon to act. The brake is like a pair of gloves or steel-toed shoes or a hardhat etc. I am sure that everyone that has been injured by a tool has thought that accidents happen to others; not to them. The choice is up to the individual purchaser; personally I feel that the brake is, for me, the best choice.

[Victor Robinson]

I will be buying a SS Contractor soon. The cost does feel very high for a contractor saw, but I do feel Sawstop deserves every cent of that money and I am happy to give it to them.

Most companies that earn our money do so based on a product that is marginally better or different from others in its category. Rarely do we as consumers actually spend for innovation. This is particularly true for power tools, which have improved and changed in only minute increments over the last several decades. Slightly more power, slightly quieter, slightly prettier, and so on. While you may or may not feel a SS is worth it for you, you have to at least laud the groundbreaking thinking and push for innovation.

So though I do know I'm paying a lot more than other contractor saws, I feel the company has earned my money with a breakthrough product. And the fact that the money is a small expense compared to this hobbyist potentially losing a finger and livelihood, it's a no-brainer.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Oh boy, this is going to be quite the hot topic. I'm going to preemptively remind everyone to count to 10 before typing!!!

PS- I agree with you completely.

[Van Huskey]

I feel that the brake is, for me, the best choice.


That is the key to every SS discussion. They become devisive when someone tries to impose their best choice on others. It occurs equally from both camps. It is not much different from any other internet discussion like which is better a BMW M3 or a Mercedes C63 or who was the better driver Senna or Schumacher. One simply has to keep in mind there is no best for everyone.

But in the end I know the PM2000 the BMW and Schumacher are all the best. :p

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Oh boy, this is going to be quite the hot topic. I'm going to preemptively remind everyone to count to 10 before typing!!!

PS- I agree with you completely.
\
Not to worry Pete,

We will keep an eye on this thread.....shut it down if necessary.

[Chris Padilla]

That is the key to every SS discussion. They become devisive when someone tries to impose their best choice on others. It occurs equally from both camps. It is not much different from any other internet discussion like which is better a BMW M3 or a Mercedes C63 or who was the better driver Senna or Schumacher. One simply has to keep in mind there is no best for everyone.

But in the end I know the PM2000 the BMW and Schumacher are all the best. :p

PLEASE...BMW all the way!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D

[Michael MacDonald]

in making my purchase decision late last year, I read a lot on this forum and many others... there were a lot of nasty threads to find in archives on the topic from back in the day (was it 2005, 2006?). some of it was consiracy theorists and "traditionalists" (though not traditional to the extent of neander tools). Some threads were fun to read and some were really overboard... I think people have calmed down, but there is still the tendancy to drop a sideways comment.

Let the games begin.

I think the most insightful comment I followed was that the initial cost would soon be forgotten, but the quality of the project you would see every day. I am glad I shelled out--that cash is forgotten.

And being new to this, I don't have 30 years history of disdaining wussy safety improvements. Or the ego to think that I am a zen master of woodworking and won't do incredibly stupid things out of ignorance or distraction...

[Paul Ryan]

Since I have been a memeber here the heated arguments and naysayers have gotten less and less. It still drums up agruments but not as intense as they were at the beginning. On other forums the naysayers get really crazy yet. But funny thing is, it is always the same people against, that actually seem to loose numbers each time. And the folks that believe in the technology seem to grow.

As I wrote in the other recent thread. I believe there are ony 2 groups of people to this argument. Those that put a price on their fingers and those that do not. Personally I know if I lost a finger, and down the road someone said for 20k I will give you back your finger, good as new. I would run to the bank as fast as I could. So in the case of these saws you can prevent the loss of a finger for at the most 5k.

That seems like a pretty good deal to me. And so far this technology is 100% reliable. I have not heard one time of the brake not firing. That is something you cannot say about your safe woodworking practices. No matter how conscious you are about saftey no one is even close to as reliable as the brake. To me it is a no brainer. The sad thing is that there arn't more saws in the lower end of the spectrum price wise. I would really like to see a $1500 cabinet saw with a brake on it in the next 5 years. I wouldn't trade my PCS for it. But I think even more injurys would be prevented because of the less expensive saw.

Sawstop has said before the more saws they sell, the cheaper they will become. I have a hard time believing that. But I do believe, the more we support them, the closer we will be to seeing another saftey device like it on a more economical saw.

[Brian Williamson]

I love my fingers and I will do my best to protect them. I also have a responsibility to the fingers of others that may in the future be exposed to my tools and I will do my best to protect them as well. The measures I use to do that include having a SS saw. All one has to do is Google the term "table saw accident" and see what comes up. I do not want that happening to anyone in my shop, EVER.

Also, the SS is an excellent tool.

It's a choice for the individual. I'll take the extra $2K on the price any day.

[Doug Roper Chairmaker]

I'm sure safety is a priority in your shops. Things happen however, a little cut here, a nick there - resulting in small, inconsequential wounds we slap a bandage on. Still, they are forms of an accident - something unintended but occurring in the simplest of ways doing tasks we've done before. Serious injuries occur in the same manner, they're never something we set out to do.

It’s unfortunate that we put a value on what we want to spend, but never a value on what we are willing to lose. In my opinion, when I consider performance AND safety, the Saw Stop is the best saw out there and the extra money spent on a lifetime purchase is a savings when compared to the pain, disability and expenses incurred with the loss of one or more fingers…hospital costs, loss of work, therapy, etc..

I’ve had a Rockwell Unisaw for over 30 years but it’s time for me to change. Shop accidents don't always happen at the table saw, but if one does, I want every safety advantage I can get.

[John Coloccia]

re: worth
It's worth exactly what the thousands of woodworkers who've bought them are willing to pay for them.


re: people who don't think they're worth it
They definitely shouldn't buy one.

re: everything else
Hey, I don't wax philosophical about your Powermatic, or ponder the psychological impact of your push sticks. :p It's just a table saw. It's not a way of life. It's like that commercial.... "I'm an Apple....I'm a PC". "I'm a Saw Stop....I'm a splitter....I'm a General". You know what I am? I'm a woodworker that uses tools to get a job done. :rolleyes:

:D

[David Prince]

You could view it as insurance. Some people buy insurance, some don't. Some need it, some don't. It is whatever risk you want to put out there.

I cannot say I am a fan of SS, but I would donate to the cause to have one put in every High School shop class!!!

It has it's place. If a person wants to invest in the SS as their own form of insurance, that is up to them. I have different priorities. Keeping my fingers is on that list. I will take my chances and continue to be careful!

[Mike Henderson]

I bought mine as insurance. I thought about how much an ER visit would cost (already had one ER visit from woodworking), and what it would feel like to lose the use of some of my digits. I felt the insurance portion of the price was cheap.

Mike

[Chip Lindley]

I love my PM66 and will continue using it. Should you find that my future posts omit "certai c aracters o will k ow t e worst as appe ed!!

Isn't this a Wonderful Country?! For the present, we have the choice to buy and use whichever tablesaw we wish!

[Bill Huber]

I would have one if I could afford but I just can not at this time. It is a neat saw and from what I have seen when I look at them they are made very well.
The safety feature is I think great.

[Philip Johnson]

Personaly for that much money I would take a cabinet saw anyday, I think one magazine summed it up nicely you want more saw or more saftey take your pick. In 40 years of woodworking I have never had a close call on a table saw and quite fankly my 24 inch band saw scares me more then the table saw. A lot more exposed blade. I have had more things thrown by planners and drill presses and shapers then my table saw. You have to respect the tool and pay attention to what your doing I would sure hate to relie on some electronic gizzmo to keep my fingers.

Phil

[Ray Bell]

Beyond the safety feature, I have seen a couple of posts where people think the SawStop is worth the extra money just in quality. I have never seen one of these saws, but would like to know what folks think about this. Please try to be unbiased, and objective.

Thanks,
Ray

[Peter Aeschliman]

I love my PM66 and will continue using it. Should you find that my future posts omit "certai c aracters o will k ow t e worst as appe ed!!

Isn't this a Wonderful Country?! For the present, we have the choice to buy and use whichever tablesaw we wish!

Amen, brother!!!

This argument is really a matter of personal preference. If like like heavy metal music and another guy likes classical, who cares?

If one person is more risk averse than another and decides the value proposition of a sawstop is appealing, who cares? If another person thinks it's a waste of money, who cares?

I can't figure out why this issue evokes so much emotion...

[Rick Prosser]

I like David's insurance approach. Everyone gets to choose the level of insurance they are comfortable with - at the price point they can handle.

Buying a SS was an easy choice for me. I needed to purchase my first table saw, and SS was a good quality saw - similar in price to comparable quality saws - PLUS the safety feature.

If I already had investment in another version TS, then the extra money would have been a harder sell.

I think those that don't opt for a SS don't care less about loosing fingers - no one wants that problem, but circumstances may prevent that extra insurance for the moment. Some people don't have health insurance, others have a little, or a lot - it just depends on their current situation.

I have a SS and I am glad to have it - even with the pricetag. Now, if I could just get it hooked up and start using it...:cool:

[Paul Ryan]

Beyond the safety feature, I have seen a couple of posts where people think the SawStop is worth the extra money just in quality. I have never seen one of these saws, but would like to know what folks think about this. Please try to be unbiased, and objective.

Thanks,
Ray

Ray,

I have never owned a Delta or a powermatic. I have used and been around them for years. I did own a higher end steel city when they made those saws, it seems all steel city makes now, is low end hybrids. Now I own a sawstop PCS. I have owned it for 11 months and 1 week. I can say without bias that I do not know of another american style table saw that has the fit and finish of a sawstop.

Now fit and finish means nothing if it cuts like crap. But the fence on the sawstop is equal to or better than almost every other fence. The motors are very stong. The 3hp motor in my steel city was a weak 3hp. The I have yet to bog down the sawstop, even when ripping 10/4 hickory with a combo blade. Adjustments are very easy and well engineered. The table on my is very flat. The wings and end of the table are machined accuratly enough that no shims were needed to level the wings. The assembly instructions and materials are well thought out. Much better than any other saw again. And their customer service is top notch, the best I have delt with. I am a field test saw owner so in the 1st month. I called and talked to the tech guys about minor things that were changed on the production saws. I honestly believe that without the brake they are still the best american style saws out there.

Sawstop has taken saftey a step farther in their newest PCS saw. With the introduction of the 1st OEM above table dust collecting blade guard. The blade guard works as well as a shark guard and is standard on a PCS saw. The most recent saw comparison I read, cant remeber what magazine either wood or FWW. Dust collection on the PCS saw was better than any other saw tested. Dust collection on the PCS saw with out the blade guard is better than the ICS saw because the PCS uses a plastic blade shroud instead of a cast iron shroud.

[Tim Null]

My position is a bit different. I have the SS contractor saw and love it. Great upgrade from the Ridgid I had before, though that was a really good beginner saw to see if I like this nutty hobby.....I do.

But I have a medical reason for having a SS. I number years ago I had a heart attack and a stent implanted. Then I had two more stents placed a few years ago.

So my cardiologist has me on a full 325 mg aspirin every day and Plavix, which prevents clotting. Great for my heart, bad for any cuts.

I bleed like a stuck pig, bruise very easily and have a hard time stopping even minor cuts from bleeding. So a serious cut on the table saw, such as a finger amputation could be life threatening.

The brake on the SS could literally save my life. It was not even a difficult decision, my wife just said that if I was going to continue woodworking, get that saw!

I am doing fine, got a clean bill of health from my cardiologist. Exercise, diet, low stress. He approved of the SS as well.

I chuckle when I see these threads, since for me the SS was a godsend. I am very careful anyway, but I feel now that if something were to go wrong, the life threatening danger would be mitigated.

Now, if the bleeding problem were not a factor, I would still have purchased the SS. I evaluate permanent disability for California's Workers Comp System for a living and see the impact amputated fingers have on injured workers every day. Every one of them would pay ten times the cost of the saw to have their digits back to pre injury status.

Just my perspective.

[Ray Bell]

Paul, thank you for the review. I own a Ridgid right now, but I am just in the process of upgrading my garage/shop to 200 Amp with 220V circuits, so have been seriously thinking about upgrading my table saw. I have never seen any thing negative about the SS, except that it is expensive, and it is, but to each their own.

Tim said:

"I am doing fine, got a clean bill of health from my cardiologist. Exercise, diet, low stress. He approved of the SS as well".

Glad you are doing well Tim, and enjoying your hobby.

[Van Huskey]

Beyond the safety feature, I have seen a couple of posts where people think the SawStop is worth the extra money just in quality. I have never seen one of these saws, but would like to know what folks think about this. Please try to be unbiased, and objective.

Thanks,
Ray

OK I will tackle this but remember no one is unbiased.

Lets use the three SS to frame the discussion and keep in mind this is completely without regard to the brake:

1st is the CS. Hands down the SS is the best contractor saw available. Nothing on the market comes close in quality or price as long as you upgrade the stock saw with wings and fence. The issue is if NOT considering the brake there are superior cabinet saws for less than the price of the CS.

2nd is the PCS. This is a much harder comparison since it is a full 3hp cabinet saw so it competes with its bigger brother as well as the $1200 Grizzly's. It has very good fit and finish, a solid fence, excellent dust collection and a solid but not world class riving knife system. It stands well above all but four 10" "American type" cabinet saws with little argument.

3rd is the ICS. The ICS sits with the 10" cabinet saw elite the big tabled big boys. The ICS, Uni, PM2000 and the General 650R are the benchmarks. The General here is the old schooler, long in the tooth and short on innovation but made in N/A and ready to make sawdust for 50 years. The Delta is the new kid on the block built more or less ground up with the best riving knife, arbor lock, great fence and unique front adjustments, kinda made in the USA and a another strong contender. The PM is another newer saw with lots of innovation, serious trunnions, arbor lock, innovative mag switch, built in mobility and the second best riving knife system. The ICS is a great saw it has some of the innovatons of the newer saws but not all of either but it is very well balanced between features and quality. To be honest price independant I would say the Uni, PM2000 and the ICS are VERY close, my pick would be the ICS, the PM2000 next and the Uni third but again all very close. If my memory serves there has only been one magazine review with all of these saws in it at one time, the ISC and PM2000 both tied for 1st. (FWW but not sure of the issue). Another test by Workbench Magazine did not have the new Uni and came to the same conclusion the PM2000 and the ICS tied for 1st place.

In my opinion with no regard to the brake the SS saws beat their competton just as a saw, in the lower two categories it is a very handy victory and have a price making it understandable but in the big table top gun category it is much closer as the magazine testing bears out, for me of the three (the General is just too old school) the ICS wins by a hair but in the end they are close enough that price would be the largest factor between the three.

A moment on magazine bias, you often here how magazines are so biased and "paid" with advertising for their opinions, over the years I have found that to be BS at least with cars and tools (the items I know best). One good indicator of this is the fact that FWW also does the readers choice awards based on polling of their readers, their choice almost always matches either the best tool or the next best tool as chosen by the editors. I guess they could be fudging this one too if you are a black helicopter type.

Bottom line, the SS saws are at the top of their respective classes and you can not go wrong with them purchased without regard to the brake, the only difference if "no brake" shopping the price premium can be moderate to extreme.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Personaly for that much money I would take a cabinet saw anyday, I think one magazine summed it up nicely you want more saw or more saftey take your pick.

Ah, but you don't have to choose Philip - the new PCS is the same price as the new Unisaw, and it seems a toss-up as to which one is better quality (they both seem equally good).

[Glen Butler]

BMW? Mercedes? Pulease! My Ford F350 will roll over both those and keep going. :D

[Van Huskey]

BMW? Mercedes? Pulease! My Ford F350 will roll over both those and keep going. :D


But alas it would have to catch it, the only way a dinosaur catches a cheetah is if the cheetah is sleeping.

[John Carlo]

We make mistakes at any age. I once grabbed onto the metal band around the shipping crate of a new piece of machinery. I'll never do that again. Well, I'm just 62 but I try to plan for the years ahead. I bought a second tractor last year before I retired so that I could leave the snow blower on the big diesel and not have to wrestle a massive 300 lb mower off it. I would like to continue woodworking for years and years to come but I may get to the point that I'm not quite as sharp as that blade on the saw. I almost bought the new Unisaw at the Detroit show last weekend and at a great price too. However, my wife is insisting on the SS after hearing directly from a high school shop teacher friend who told her about a wayward student who still has all of his fingers albeit one has a tiny scratch. The school district knows how much money they saved on that investment!

[Mike Henderson]

Does anyone have any market share data for table saws. That is, for the table saws sold each year, what percentage each company sells.

Just wondering what SawStop's market share is in the cabinet saw category.

Mike

[Dave Cav]

3rd is the ICS. The ICS sits with the 10" cabinet saw elite the big tabled big boys.

OK, it's not a 10" saw, but for me the standard for current production saws is the Northfield #4:

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/Brochures-PDF/TiltingArborVarietySaws.pdf

and I DO have an ICS (at school). The ICS is a good saw, ok, a VERY good saw (although I was disappointed to find it came with a Chinese motor) and from a liability standpoint I'm glad we have it. My main problem with it is that you need a very robust dust collection system, or they will plug up and fill the cabinet with sawdust in short order. Today the saw tilt mechanism was stuck about 3* off vertical and it took me five minutes with an air hose and vacuum cleaner to get it cleaned out and squared back up. There is a whole lot more going on inside that cabinet than there is with a Uni or a PM 66. I won't be buying one to use at home; I'll keep my Uni and 12/14, unless someone gives me a Northfield #4....

[Van Huskey]

OK, it's not a 10" saw, but for me the standard for current production saws is the Northfield #4:

....


I agree there are some mighty saws once you get out of the 10" range and Northfield is at the head of the spear in more than one category of tool!

To Mike: I don't know if there is a clearing house for that sorta data. The only "stats" I have seen are anecdotal.

[Mike Henderson]

To Mike: I don't know if there is a clearing house for that sorta data. The only "stats" I have seen are anecdotal.
There are companies who collect market data and sell the reports to the companies in the business. When I worked in semiconductors, we subscribed to a couple of companies who provided that data and for our subscription, we received bound reports throughout the year, on different aspects of the business. For example, back when dial up modems were "high tech" we got one on modem market share.

You can bet that someone publishes one or more reports on woodworking equipment, of which table saws would be a subcategory. And within table saws, I expect to see it broken down to 10" saws and by contractor saws, hybrid saws, and cabinet saws, within 10" saws.

Those kind or reports are expensive, so mostly only the companies in the market buy them. I was wondering if someone who works for a woodworking equipment company has access to the table saw report and can tell us what the market shares are for cabinet saws.

My guess is that SawStop has a significant market share in the 10" cabinet saw market.

Mike

[Mike Heidrick]

I own a ICS SS. It rocks.

A Martin is the point of my TS pyramid.

I would also love a loaded/tricked out 900 series Felder.

So.. It will take $12K-$35K plus to get me to sell.

I think I will keep my SS and just buy a Shopbot someday.

[Paul Ryan]

OK, it's not a 10" saw, but for me the standard for current production saws is the Northfield #4:

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/Brochures-PDF/TiltingArborVarietySaws.pdf

and I DO have an ICS (at school). The ICS is a good saw, ok, a VERY good saw (although I was disappointed to find it came with a Chinese motor) and from a liability standpoint I'm glad we have it. My main problem with it is that you need a very robust dust collection system, or they will plug up and fill the cabinet with sawdust in short order. Today the saw tilt mechanism was stuck about 3* off vertical and it took me five minutes with an air hose and vacuum cleaner to get it cleaned out and squared back up. There is a whole lot more going on inside that cabinet than there is with a Uni or a PM 66. I won't be buying one to use at home; I'll keep my Uni and 12/14, unless someone gives me a Northfield #4....


I have heard the ICS saws have trouble with dust collection. I have very little experience with them. A good friend of mine that teaches tech ed courses at 2 schools. I school has 2 ICS saws from 3 years ago, the other school (same district other side of town) has 2 new PCS saws that the school bought. I have been told the dust collection on the ICS need a lot more CFM than the PCS. He has just said that between the 2 schools there is a lot more dust inside the cabinets on the ICS saws than the PCS. As I stated earlier I have been told that the cast iron shroud in the ICS doesn't do as good of a job as the plastic dut to the roughness of the material, and the design.

Other than table depth I don't believe the PCS saw gives up anything to the new Uni or PM2000. The PM2000 trunions are nothing special by any means. The new uni has the 1 piece design that looks a little intimidating at 1st. But after you realize the design is totally different there arn't much larger than the PCS. The ICS saw has much larger trunions than the PCS and the PM2000. I haven't looked under many 12" saws but I bet the trunions on the ICS are closer to a PM3000.

[Keith Outten]

Safety is a major concern in any activity, but if you are afraid to use machines possibly woodworking isn't your cup of tea.

I could make a case for everyone to get rid of their SS table saws and purchase a CNC router, then you can rip and crosscut from the other side of your shop and your fingers would be completely safe.

Note that I don't look down on anyone because they don't own a CNC router. I accept that for some woodworkers it just isn't the best tool for the work they do even though I know that it is safer than any table saw including the SS.

There is no such thing as the "Best Tool", Unicorns or Easy Money.

Now, let me get back to watching my CNC router cut plywood on my shop television. When it finishes I will go downstairs and load another sheet making sure to put my gloves on so I don't get a splinter.

Lighten up guys, live and let live. Purchase the tool that fits your needs and let others do the same.
.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

That is the key to every SS discussion. They become devisive when someone tries to impose their best choice on others. It occurs equally from both camps. It is not much different from any other internet discussion like which is better a BMW M3 or a Mercedes C63 or who was the better driver Senna or Schumacher. One simply has to keep in mind there is no best for everyone.

But in the end I know the PM2000 the BMW and Schumacher are all the best. :p

Van, I agree completely. I have the SS - and love it. But I looked at the Uni, and I also checked out a lot of the other saws. I can see why one would choose any one of them, and I congratulate them on their new TS. It *is* a matter of choice and preference. My saw was right for me. The Uni or a PM is right for others. Now let's get back to making sawdust.

I started another thread on a TS jury award.....please try to keep that one civil too.....

PS Definitely Schumacher. He's amazing. And BMW is the best as long as Audi isn't under consideration ;)

[Tom Godley]

Not sure how you could argue against the technology in the Sawstop - its a huge step forward in tool safety. I think what bothers people is that some of these threads go almost to the point of being sanctimonious.

Its great to see the subsequent two saws come out - it allows the technology to become more available to those needing a more portable saw and affordable in the case of the mid priced saw. But unlike the original poster I believe the cost premium is a huge factor.

I have always had a certain fear of table saws -- I used a 9" Craftsman growing up - and while I got used to it I never liked it. When I got the opportunity to use a real table saw - a Unisaw - I was surprised by how much easier it was to use - and safer. The stability and power of the larger saws makes a difference. So if I only had so much to spend - I'm not sure I would want the Sawstop contractor saw over say the Grizzly cabinet saw.

When I went looking a few years back the PM2000 was 2k and the Sawstop was 5k - for not much more I could get a slider. I went with the PM - maybe I would get the mid priced SS if this decision was being made today - but I would not have purchased the contractor.

[Doug W Swanson]

Granted the Sawstop is probably a great saw and does have some incredible technology but there are those of us who simply cannot afford it.

If I could afford to spend $2k or more on a table saw, I would certainly consider a SS.

Since my budget is more like $700, I will be looking for a used cabinet/hybrid TS.

I have 10 fingers right now and I plan to keep it that way so no matter what saw I buy, I will still be very careful with it.

JMO,
Doug

[Dave Verstraete]

The decision to purchase a SS was a simple one...that took years. I had owned a PM66 for about ten years. It was everything I had always wanted. Then...I "tipped" my middle finger with it. Not terribly gruesome..just a reminder that it is a machine to be aware of. I made the mistake, not the machine. I have operated machinery my whole life and still have "all ten"(well, maybe 9.95). The week after the minor accident, Jake (my 25 year old son) and I were working in the shop. I turned around and headed upstairs for a cup of coffee. Halfway up the stairs, I heard Jake turn the saw on. I had a glimpse of my own mistake and bought the SS the next day. OK , I bought mine for "Peace of Mind".

[Don Morris]

Said it several times...Love my 1023SL but since being retired and on a fixed budget I just can't afford busting it for a SS. Have vocalized our Gov't should adhere to a budget so have to live by my word. Would it be otherwise, I'd upgrade in a heartbeat. In the meantime, I use a splitter, GRR-rippers (2), Grip-Tites, varieties of push sticks, sleds, and most important, a healthy amount of FEAR and respect for my TS.

[Jeff Dorlan]

Honestly, I am a newer member here at SMC...I keep seeing references to the "emotional" and "fiesty" posts. We had a moderator threatening to even close the thread down, right out of the gate. I just don't get it!!

Fine, you old-schooler or minimalists...it's still (for the short time) a free democracy based on capitolism. You can still make sawdust with what works for you. And the others guys can do whatever they like. If that includes a shiny state-of-the-art $5000.00 SS, why the attitude? Why the attitude on either side?! Who cares!

We all want to be safe, have fun, build things to proud of, and inspire our friends, family, and/or clients. Arrogance and judgement don't help in any of this. Thank God we have these choices. Thank God that a technology like this exists. It's probably similar to when fuel injected muscle cars started pulling up to stop lights, next to the dual-four barrel carb'ed brothers. There were attitudes, sneers, and comments on both sides. That arguement is all but dead today.

So, let it go guys. Don't think your side is better, smarter, safer, or wiser. To each his own. We all enjoy a lot more of the same things, than not. I have several saws and they do different things.

Can't we all just get along (as long as we aren't repeat criminals)? : )

[Van Huskey]

I think the tone of the these threads has changed significantly over time and people are beginning to recognize choice and the inherent beauty in it. I don't scoff at people riding motorcycles even when I know they are subjecting themselves to exponetially higher risk of serious injury or death in a crash, I know that he or she is deriving some utility from the extra risk associated with their choice the same way as I don't question someones choice to drive a large uber safety conscious sedan with radar controlled brakes, more airbags than wheels, lane departure warning et al. I also don't make a judgement on someone who drives a rolling safety advertisement then cave dives on the weekend, we all calculate and manage risk in different ways.



Niki was great, my first "favorite driver" and a man who understood risk well, he lobbied prior to the '76 "Ring" GP that the track was dangerous but no one listen and he race (Though he really had no choice, imagine telling Enzo no...) and paid for it. He learned his lesson well and pulled out of the '76 Fuji GP and watched the "Playboy" Hunt take a title that he really deserved, and Enzo did what everyone expected and sacked him. My point is Niki would have owned a Uni or PM in Janurary 1976, but in December he would have chosen a SS (but put a Parmalat sticker on it :cool:), we all live, learn and adapt.

As for his place in the hierarchy of Maranello drivers I have to put him 4th although it pains me to some extent. Schumacher, Ascari and Prost were all better. Although Michael drove during the tech zenith of the 94/95 seasons nothing leads me to believe he couldn't adapt to anything with wheels, he did show some pretty decent chops on 2 wheels during his "retirement". Forza Ferrari. :D



So close, Van - so VERY close. But - strap Schumaker into a car without dual-clutch thumb-button shifters on a $200,000 steering wheel with engineers on laptops changing parameters real-time while he's driving the courses (the 'Ring?) and the course conditions from back then, and he would be second chair in the Ferrari team to Niki Lauda.

Hey - don't feel bad - 2 out of 3 ain't shabby..........:D:D

[John Terefenko]

I had to go in here and delete my orginal message because I can not stand these posts about SawStop saws. Enough already. Good luck to you all with the other power tools in your shop. Stay safe. I wonder if they can make a seperate forum just for the SawStop people.

[John Grabowski]

I just watched the creator of SS's brake put his own finger into the blade on youtube and they shot it with a 5000 frame per sec video camera...That is amazing.

I will get one as soon as I can afford one!!

JG

[Van Huskey]

I just watched the creator of SS's brake put his own finger into the blade on youtube and they shot it with a 5000 frame per sec video camera...That is amazing.

I will get one as soon as I can afford one!!

JG


Forget that time lapse footage what I wanna see is what Steve Gass looked like when he did it the first time in his garage, when it was just a prototype... He put orajel (or one of those) on his finger before hand. Imagine the pucker factor, kinda like the guy testing the first parachute.

[Jon Lanier]

You know, after reading all these, I still can't understand why worms don't wear pants? :confused:

[John Grabowski]

The only thing that me buying a sawstop will do is enable me to keep all my fingers in tact, which has not always been the case.

I will buy it for me...Not for the inventor.

John G

[John Harden]

You know, after reading all these, I still can't understand why worms don't wear pants? :confused:

"I don't care who you are, that right there's funny"!!!!!

Sorry, I have a 4 y/o who loves Cars. We both laugh at "Mater". Your post made me think he'd say something like that.

[Larry Edgerton]

My objections to the Sawstop go back to their attempt to bring about legislation that would outlaw the tools already in my shop if I have employees. It is hard enough to stay profitable with all of the regs as it is, and in fact OSHA and insurance premiums in combination with the sluggish economy have made me get rid of all shop employees as it is.

I will probably buy the first viable alternative to replace my PM 66, although my slider will stay. The Sawstop company created the ill will among small shop owners, and in an ironic twist that may be the contriversy that propelled them to the success they now enjoy.

There will be more and better systems to follow by other manufacturers. I would bet my measly bank account that all of the major players are working on such systems now, and hopefully one that does not cost so much when it fires, and does not cause down time.

[george wilson]

I have no beef with Saw Stop saws. My objection is that I can't use my special blades with them. I have a 6" blade ground to .020" near the cutting edge for sawing guitar fret slots. My already bought 6" dado head won't work.

I bought a new Saw Stop for my toolmaker's shop before I retired,and found these issues to be true. I got the saw because my new replacement had hardly any experience in woodworking. I thought it would be safer for him.

The saw's safety features CANNOT be made to turn off so my special blades can be used. Even when the brake is OFF,the saw's safety demands must be met. I don't see why.

I think the Saw Stop is a beautiful,very well made saw. It is well worth the money,as has been said by another poster. I just do not like the limitations it imposes on me. I'm glad I already have my old 1964 Dewalt,which I bought when I was 21.

[Greg Peterson]

I guess we could go back a number of years and reflect on an era when seat belts didn't exist.

I imagine at first they were an option, to which more than one person probably thought "I've been driving for twenty years and haven't needed a seat belt yet".

Perhaps this is a poor analogy. But in a generation or two we will likely have woodworkers looking back on today's tablesaws, and perhaps bandsaws, with a sense of awe. "They didn't have a safety brake on those machines!?!".

By virtually every account I've read, SS is a high quality tool. That it incorporates a unique, non-passive safety feature, is a benefit to whoever uses the tool, regardless their level of experience.

[Kevin Womer]

re: worth
It's worth exactly what the thousands of woodworkers who've bought them are willing to pay for them.


re: people who don't think they're worth it
They definitely shouldn't buy one.

re: everything else
Hey, I don't wax philosophical about your Powermatic, or ponder the psychological impact of your push sticks. :p It's just a table saw. It's not a way of life. It's like that commercial.... "I'm an Apple....I'm a PC". "I'm a Saw Stop....I'm a splitter....I'm a General". You know what I am? I'm a woodworker that uses tools to get a job done. :rolleyes:

:D

Well said, Amen.

[Brian Kincaid]

It's just a table saw. It's not a way of life. ... You know what I am? I'm a woodworker that uses tools to get a job done.

Well said John. My opinion though is that table saws will soon disappear like RASs. I would guess that those who have nice RASs hold on to them and use them for special tasks like long crosscuts but not rips. Likewise folks will use table saws for ripping very long pieces but not much else.

Quite a while back I sold my table saw after discovering other tools to accomplish the same tasks with the same or better accuracy, higher capacity where I needed it, and significantly less effort. This is not a commercial so I will leave it at that.

-Brian

[Mitchell Andrus]

I did a little math....

If the technology was now 100% in place... ALL mfgrs licensing.... ALL 'hits' ruining a brake AND blade, and assuming all old saws had been forced to the junkyards, etc....

IF the 30,000 injuries per year figure is accurate, and at +- $75.00/brake (including shipping), +- $100.00/blade (again including shipping), there would be a $5,250,000.00 expenditure in brakes and blades/year not counting false braking events.

I'm not equating this to cost/benefit, nicks vs. serious injuries, etc.,... Just saying.....

I'll still be getting mine.
.

[Mike Henderson]

I had a tangle with a router and wound up in the ER. Only took stitches to patch me up. Rounded, the ER bill was about $1,000.

I'd say my injury was on the lower end of the scale since no reconstruction was required (things such as reattaching fingers, or repairing muscle and nerves, etc.) so let's just assume an average ER cost for a TS injury to be $2,500.

Just the ER cost for 30,000 injuries (not including lost work time, or disability costs, etc.) would be about $75,000,000 per year

The cost of the brakes and blades is fairly small if it would really prevent $75,000,000 in ER costs. But you also have to find a way to factor in the extra cost of a SawStop like technology - that is, the extra cost of a table saw with a brake, compared to the cost of a saw without a brake. And that cost is not just for the 30,000 who are injured, but for everyone who buys a table saw with a brake, even those who never have an accident.

That "insurance" cost is spread over the life of the saw. You pay it one time, but it covers you for the life of the saw. Let's say the life of a saw is 20 years and the extra cost of a saw with a brake is $200 (this assumes after the patents expire so no royalties are required). The cost per year of the insurance is $10 per saw.

If the installed base of saws with brakes is 1,000,000 saws, the insurance cost is $10,000,000 per year.

If the installed base is about 7,000,000 saws, the cost for insurance would be about $70,000,000 per year and we're about at break even to prevent about 30,000 accidents.

Of course, some of my numbers may be wrong so use your own numbers to come to your own conclusions.

Mike

[For the person who has a debilitating table saw accident, the numbers don't mean much - they'd much prefer to have had the insurance. But the numbers are important for public policy.]

[Mitchell Andrus]

That "insurance" cost is spread over the life of the saw. You pay it one time, but it covers you for the life of the saw. Let's say the life of a saw is 20 years and the extra cost of a saw with a brake is $200 (this assumes after the patents expire so no royalties are required). The cost per year of the insurance is $10 per saw.



This assumes the original cartridge (and complicated electronics that control it) will remain 'good' for 20+ years. (I've yet to see a 20+ yo radio, telephone, TV, laptop in working order.... watch the discussions at the laser forum for discussions of control boards going bad in 2 to 5 years) If in order to maintain an intact warranty (or to comply with an OSHA ruling), you must buy a new cartridge every 5 years whether it's gone bad or not.

It's a small step from mandating the saw to mandating a fresh brake cartridge and electronics panel on a fixed schedule.

Also, if (when) a cheaper or better technology comes along, how long can we require SS to furnish 'old' brakes? I'm convinced if a blade brake of some design is mandated, there will be 2 or 3 incompatible systems to choose from.

Edison's phonograph needles moved up and down. Victor's moves side to side. The lawsuits flew, guess who won in the marketplace?
.

[Mike Henderson]

If in order to maintain an intact warranty (or to comply with an OSHA ruling), you must buy a new cartridge every 5 years whether it's gone bad or not.
Is this something from SS or OSHA, or just an assumption on your part? If it's an assumption, we probably should query SS to see what they consider the life of the brake module to be.

Mike

[Lots of electronics last longer than 5 years, lots last longer than 20 years. If fact, once you get past the infant mortality, semiconductors last a long time. Many, many cars have an electronics control module, have had them for many years, and you don't hear of them failing all the time, and there's probably over 200 million in the US alone. I would expect the SS control module to be about as complex as an early 1990's automobile electronic control module.]

[Van Huskey]

A little off topic but i thought it was cool but it is gone since I posted it in "another" thread. Somewhere in the 200 or so pages of the CPSC information from the 2004 consideration of making blade brakes mandatory there was a letter from SS to Northfield (In response to a letter from them) talking about SS's idea for a band saw brake that instead of trying to stop the big (or huge) cast wheels it would shear the band, thought it was interesting. If you wanna waste some time and see some really interesting "insider" stuff heres the link, in 3 parts at the bottom of the page: http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia04/pubcom/pubcom.html

I also noted and pointed out in "another" thread a creen shot from SMC was included, it is exhibit A, page 8 in the third .pdf (last one on the page).

[Mitchell Andrus]

Is this something from SS or OSHA, or just an assumption on your part? If it's an assumption, we probably should query SS to see what they consider the life of the brake module to be.

Mike


An assumption based on an educated guess... and a little Murphy's law. Really think OSHA boobs will leave this safety stuff alone? They write fines for dirty bathrooms.

The front sensor module for the airbags on my car were recalled due to corrosion-induced failure to detect impact in only the 2nd year. I'll assume it took a few failures/injuries to determine that problem. Toyota with $ billions in resources has 4 or 5 major recalls all running at once (for whatever the reasons). Even with all of the regulations on automobiles, problems developed right under everyone's noses.

The SS warranty is 2 years. I'll assume each new brake is warranteed for a similar time. So if it fails to detect and/or fire after that it's out of warranty are all bets off? If I get injured on a SS that didn't fire with an original years-old brake who's to blame? Juries award big money to dolts who spill coffee on themselves, imagine what'll happen when a brake doesn't fire? Do I get a new brake that'll fire the next time?

The problem is that it's an active system, not passive placing at least some of the blame for a failure on whoever does the maintenance:

The manual indicates (p. 86) that you need to check for dust inside the cartridge every 50 hours of use. You must replace it if there's a 'significant' amount of dust inside OR 'more than a small amount' of dust inside depending on the paragraph you read. That sounds like lawyer-speak for an 'out'. Can't they make a sawdust-proof cartridge to operate in a sawdust environment or is this designed-in obsolescence every 50+ hours based on operator inspection and a guess? No other maintenance to the brake cartridge is required.

Mike, have you looked for sawdust inside the brake module lately? Will you remember to do that for years to come? You going to buy a new cartridge or blow the dust out of the old one?

Someday there will be a full-out failure and lots of publicity. The reasons forwarded for the failure will tell the tale.

I'm still getting one. I just don't know for sure brake parts will be available in 20 years.
.

[Chris Padilla]

Juries award big money to dolts who spill coffee on themselves...

I think this is the biggest problem...juries who hand out such awards. It can only feed the fire of crazy lawsuits that come up. Of course, judges must take some of that blame, too. The lawyers are there to supply their services for the demand....

[Glenn Clabo]

Read this...and then put yourself in the place of the jury...are they really crazy?
http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm

[Kent A Bathurst]

..... if there's a 'significant' amount of dust inside OR 'more than a small amount' of dust inside depending on the paragraph you read. That sounds like lawyer-speak for an 'out'.....
.

Disagree - it doesn't "sound like" - it IS. ;)



..... I just don't know for sure brake parts will be available in 20 years....

Aye - there's the rub - go back 20 years - 1990 - think of something that was cutting edge (no pun intended) technology. Then, go find replacement parts for it. I don't mean steel or bushings - those can be easily had at a used-parts store. I mean electronic gizmos.

Maybe part of the emissions control systems for one of these beauties (not that it worked when new - I had one):
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/vehicle-pictures/1996/oldsmobile/cutlass-ciera/95128211990810-480.jpg

[Joe Leigh]

What makes those facts? Because the word "McFact" precedes each sentence in bold?
What is the reference for these so called facts? Where is the link to the transcripts of the trial?
I see the name "Wall St Journal" bandied about, is that supposed to lend credibility? The Journal is not specifically attributed to any of the so called facts, it simply said McDonalds "callousness" was an issue.
Meaningless.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that this thread has gone way off subject.

[Terry Hatfield]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that this thread has gone way off subject.

That could possibly be the most relevant thing I've read in this thread in a while. :)

[Van Huskey]

What makes those facts? Because the word "McFact" precedes each sentence in bold?
What is the reference for these so called facts? Where is the link to the transcripts of the trial?
I see the name "Wall St Journal" bandied about, is that supposed to lend credibility? The Journal is not specifically attributed to any of the so called facts, it simply said McDonalds "callousness" was an issue.
Meaningless.


Actual, everyone of those McFacts is pretty accurate. If one actually followed this case AFTER the headline splash was over all of what is presented there either was presented as evidence or was part of the appeal and the remittitur. Many people complain about punative damages but most that do have no idea how or why they work and how difficult it is in most jurisdictions to get a jury charge for punatives. Many of the people that from the outside say "if I was on a jury they wouldn't get a cent" are the ones opening the defendants check book because they actual hear the evidence not just the sound bite.

BTW to stay on topic, the SS is a really good saw and a genius invention.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Aye - there's the rub - go back 20 years - 1990 - think of something that was cutting edge (no pun intended) technology. Then, go find replacement parts for it. I don't mean steel or bushings - those can be easily had at a used-parts store. I mean electronic gizmos.



IIRC: Car makers must make replacement parts available for 10 years - I'll assume this dies when chapter 7 or 11 is invoked. (Some government regulations are good)

I'm not knocking someone making money when bringing new technology to market... I'm just wary of recommending to someone that they spend +-$3,000.00 for a saw who's main selling point may not work nor be repairable in 5, 10, 15 years. Mr. Gass may have solid gold intentions and I don't think otherwise, but a few well placed lawsuits and/or a steeper downturn in the economy in the future can make even him go away for good.

At some point, there won't be a big enough market for brake cartridges to keep them in production at a reasonable price point. The solution may be to buy 2 or 3 spares - but if they have a shelf life of 5 years (I will to avoid a few day's downtime)... that doesn't work either. Does the explosive charge diminish/disappear over time?
.

[Chris Friesen]

IF the 30,000 injuries per year figure is accurate, and at +- $75.00/brake (including shipping), +- $100.00/blade (again including shipping), there would be a $5,250,000.00 expenditure in brakes and blades/year not counting false braking events.

When you start talking about $10000 for surgery on a cut-off finger, it doesn't take too many real incidents to pay for all the brakes/blades.

[Van Huskey]

You make some good points but my guess is that it is a tempest in a tea pot. I would be willing to bet they will be available for 20 or more years. No way to know it but thats my gut.



IIRC: Car makers must make replacement parts available for 10 years - I'll assume this dies when chapter 7 or 11 is invoked. (Some government regulations are good)

I'm not knocking someone making money when bringing new technology to market... I'm just wary of recommending to someone that they spend +-$3,000.00 for a saw who's main selling point may not work nor be repairable in 5, 10, 15 years. Mr. Gass may have solid gold intentions and I don't think otherwise, but a few well placed lawsuits and/or a steeper downturn in the economy in the future can make even him go away for good.

At some point, there won't be a big enough market for brake cartridges to keep them in production at a reasonable price point. The solution may be to buy 2 or 3 spares - but if they have a shelf life of 5 years (I will to avoid a few day's downtime)... that doesn't work either. Does the explosive charge diminish/disappear over time?
.

[Mark Beall]

I did a little math....

If the technology was now 100% in place... ALL mfgrs licensing.... ALL 'hits' ruining a brake AND blade, and assuming all old saws had been forced to the junkyards, etc....

IF the 30,000 injuries per year figure is accurate, and at +- $75.00/brake (including shipping), +- $100.00/blade (again including shipping), there would be a $5,250,000.00 expenditure in brakes and blades/year not counting false braking events.

I'm not equating this to cost/benefit, nicks vs. serious injuries, etc.,... Just saying.....

I'll still be getting mine.
.

Hmm, I found this:

http://www.jhandsurg.org/article/S0363-5023(09)00111-7/abstract

which, for the (small) set of TS injuries they reviewed, the "mean cost of medical expenses for all patients was $22,086, with $8,668 in lost wages, for a total of $30,754 mean cost per injury"

The 30,000 injury number is only emergency room treated injuries that were reported as such (and, if I recall correctly, that study was only non-occupational injuries). How many actual triggers of blade brakes would there really be per year, probably quite a bit more.

Seems to me the guy that invented this should have just asked for a $20 royalty on each brake sold.....

mark

[Glenn Vaughn]

My car cost me $27K a year go. If I keep the ar 10 years it will have cost around $2700 a year. The saw cost me $2200. If I use it for 10 years it will have cose me $220 a year. I get pleasure from both. The cost of ownership for the saw is much less than for the car.

[Karl Card]

heck all i have is a ryobi bt3100 with wings and a left and right miter slot... but I guess i am missing somehting because I am happy for the guy who wants a grizzly and gets it, i am happy for the guy who wants an ss and gets it... the jet, delta just whatever.
But whatever saw you have tune it up, dont saw drunk and hopefully everything is cool.

[Jeff Dorlan]

Mitch, the saw has diagnostic circuit that diagnoses the system every time the power switch is pushed. If the cartridge and brake system are not viable, the saw does not energize the motor. It works or it doesn't.

The electronics failing is a red herring. Electronics usually fail within hours of initial power-up, or decades later. Mr. Goss is a mechanical engineer. Sawdust was on the short list of challenges to overcome. It was done. It is just common sense to make sure there is no ridiculous amount of sawdust, that the drive belts are not cracked and broken, that your power cable is not half melted, that screws are not hanging off the saw ready to slice your hand open, and that a puddle of oil isn't under your saw.

These warnings and considerations need to be printed and covered because people are just stupid. They will slice cheese on their saw to see if it smells good. Kids ride on the roof of their cars because it is fun. Drunks shoot street signs when bored. People need to be saved from themselves. Additionally, we live in an imperfect world...and one with lawyers. Life is dangerous, and nothing is foolproof, perfect, guaranteed, or as simple as it seems. SS is just another great way to lower undue risk for not a huge investment.

We all have considerations, thoughts, feelings, and concerns. Talk amongst yourselves. Do with your money what you will. Hell, the way things are going in the US, a tablesaw may about be the last thing we have to worry about in our waking hours. Let's how we're both wrong. I'm just saying...

[John M Bailey]

Read this...and then put yourself in the place of the jury...are they really crazy?
http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm

I have read that, and yes, even assuming those facts are true they are still crazy.