Ready to sell

[Jerry Hay]

Things are slow for me I am so ready to sell. The payment on my laser is killing me now. I don't know what to do.

[Julie Nickerson]

I am in the same boat as you. I only have 1 year of payments left on my laser but lack of work has really put the account deep in overdraft and starting to use personal money to pay business bills. I called the bank and told them to come and get the machine. The manager said they don't want it.
So yeah, I can sympathize with you.

[James Stokes]

this just proves the fact for all of the new people wanting to buy a laser to get rich. It aint easy!

[David Fairfield]

Good thing is the secondary market for a used laser is still pretty strong. So you shouldn't be out too much when you sell.

[Keith Outten]

Some customers need and some customers want!

In these tough economic times needs are still being satisfied, wants are being put on hold for better times.

Look for sign work in your area, signs are a must have in certain businesses and there is still plenty of work.

Signs for electrical contractors
ADA door signs
etc.
.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Signage is a good idea as long as you have building/businesses being built. We do AHU labels for an electrician next door and we have not gotten too much from them for a while. Slow building affects many a trades.

[Allan Wright]

Post it for sale here or on Ebay. Considering you only owe a year's worth of payments, you'll probably get what you owe on it and maybe a bit more. The nice thing about lasers is they tend to hold a good deal of their value.

[David Fairfield]

Yup, or you can also contact your laser company or rep. They will either make you an offer or assist in finding a customer for a used laser.

I use slack time for product development, that way when the economy picks up I will be there with fresh new goodies.

But sometimes quitting really is the winner's option. Good luck either way.

Dave

[Julie Nickerson]

this just proves the fact for all of the new people wanting to buy a laser to get rich. It aint easy!

I was hoping when I got into this business 12 years ago that it would help pay the bills. It's not doing that now, it's costing too much to keep going although I really don't want to quit. I was hoping that this was a storm that I could ride out. Don't know if I can, getting really discouraged.

Jerry, this is a slow time of year for most people. Hopefully things will pick up for you in the spring.

[Pat Meeuwissen]

Some customers need and some customers want!

In these tough economic times needs are still being satisfied, wants are being put on hold for better times.

Look for sign work in your area, signs are a must have in certain businesses and there is still plenty of work.

Signs for electrical contractors
ADA door signs
etc.
.
Keith since I'm an electrician I'm wondering what kind of signs you make for us?? Pat

[Dan Hintz]

Pat,

Large industrial complexes require thousands upon thousands of panel tags... the electrical guys doing the work have to get them from somewhere, and its usually a lot of sequential stuff.

[Rodne Gold]

The problem with industrial work and cheap eastern lasers is that most of the big customers find it a lot cheaper and more importantly quicker to do stuff in house...
A $2000 laser will do an "adequate" job and is hardly an eye watering expense...

[Ross Moshinsky]

Rodne,

From my experience, established industrial firms in the US are not typically interested in Chinese machines, despite their low cost. We are spoiled by American manufacturing, and "real businesses" typically try to take advantage of it. I know in other parts of the world, they do not have such a luxury. So, although it may only be a $2000-4000 investment, a lot of companies won't spend the money because it is a "cheap Chinese machine".


As for the original question, I find this industry funny. A lot of hobbyists willing to give their work away for not a lot of money. For a particle board plaque with a black steel plate, engraved boarder, we charge roughly $20-30. For the engraving we fetch $.30 a letter. On a typical plaque, we get $45-50. The same plaque from many internet sellers is $30-35 with free shipping. We get a lot of business from municipalities and local people who can't/choose not to use the internet. So what am I trying to say? Find a niche where you can get more than a fair amount for your work. Trinkets and little plaques is not where you should look. Leave that to the Chinese. I suggest offering very specialized services where you can compete. Otherwise you don't stand much of a chance.

[Rodne Gold]

Folk arent so patriotic in my country - their wallet dictates their choice especially when times get tough.

[Viktor Voroncov]

Rodney, unfortunately peoples all around the world during crisis time are not patriotic :( 2009 was worst time in my business experience when I first time thought about closing company. Bloody banks now do not offer credit/leasing to customers at all. Before somebody have $3000 - usually he use them as first leasing payment for GCC laser. In 2009 he bought for this amount Chinese laser with glass tube :(
But now situation is slightly better.

[Keith Outten]

Keith since I'm an electrician I'm wondering what kind of signs you make for us?? Pat

Pat,

Dan is right on target, the electrical field requires an almost endless supply of tags for electrical panels, cable runs and equipment. There are also tags required by mechanical and plumbing companies for fans, motors, pumps and valves.

The construction industry isn't totally dead, there are buildings being built these days and new buildings require more tags and signs than you can imagine. The good news is that even if your area is slack construction wise you can bid projects outside of your locality, tags are generally small and light weight so they can be shipped inexpensively.

I work at Christopher Newport University as a Clerk of the Works and I am the University sign maker. I make all of the ADA door signs and specialty signs for all the new buildings and retrofit older buildings when i have the time. My workload is exhaustive to say the least with almost four years of backlog. I don't make the electrical or mechanical tags for any of our new buildings, I don't have the time. Even though we have a 60 watt laser engraver in our sign shop Mike Null makes most of the employee badges for CNU because I don't have the time. I didn't even know that Mike was providing CNU employee badges until a last year, the subject came up in conversation one day while we were talking on the phone.

A few years ago I got fed up with traditional engraving because it wasn't profitable. I started looking at the local industrial areas here and found a fairly large number of companies that were manufacturing products that needed tags. One in particular was a company that was producing cryogenic machines, they needed small plastic boxes vector cut and custom tags made for the boxes and custom panels made for control systems. This is how I got started making signs. I haven't engraved a picture in a long time and doubt I could remember how these days.

I also do commercial signs in my workshop here at home. I haven't done a retail job in years and I hope I never see another one, for me they just won't pay the bills and I don't enjoy the work anymore. Signs for two or three commercial buildings per year is preferable to me and I have yet to make electrical tags for any building I have made the signs for, someone else takes care of them.

The sign budget for a commercial building can easily be 20 to 50 thousand dollars not including any tags or specialty work.

Dupont Corian is the reason that I am busy, the stuff is magical :)
.

[Mike Null]

In my view, too many of the laser buyers tend to think they can make and sell a particular product. They are not only usually wrong but even if it were a good idea they don't have a clue about how to market it.

Typically, these products are directed at retail customers. Besides being very fickle, retail customers are often one time buyers. In other words, they don't re-order.

I have always perceived engraving to be a service provided to meet the customers needs. I have focused on commercial/institutional customers as they have on-going requirements.

[Jim Beachler]

In my opinion, people go into buying a laser or other machines and think that if they can make a product, it will sell. As many of you will agree, the biggest part of this job is not the engraving but rather the marketing and selling. If you don't spend time always on the lookout for new business, you won't have any. It took me a while to get it through my head but eventually I learned.

My most important job is marketing and selling to get the job. The second most important is to get the job done correctly and timely as the salesperson (me) promised.

[Dan Hintz]

Folk arent so patriotic in my country - their wallet dictates their choice especially when times get tough.
I don't think patriotism plays a major role in the decisions North American companies make for purchases like that... I think it comes down to a perception that the Chinese machines are just inferior, so even with a huge savings they'll stay away from them. For inexact stuff like tags, that's probably a poor business decision, but unless someone tells them the chinese machine is adequate for the problem at hand, you don't know what you don't know...

[Doug Griffith]

I don't think patriotism plays a major role in the decisions North American companies make for purchases like that... I think it comes down to a perception that the Chinese machines are just inferior, so even with a huge savings they'll stay away from them. For inexact stuff like tags, that's probably a poor business decision, but unless someone tells them the chinese machine is adequate for the problem at hand, you don't know what you don't know...

I agree. Another example would be real businesses not relying on Harbor Freight tools.

[Rodne Gold]

I would imagine that the pressure that a lot of those who start up are under would be far lessened if they disabused themselves of the fact that a much cheaper machine can indeed do the same thing that an "industrial" one can. Whats the point of the ultimate reliability and capacity if you dont have the demand for product ..one can always buy up if and when things start pumping.

I will give you an example , we bought a $26 000 3 phase hot and cold laminator /mounting machine, 1.6m wide capacity , when I bought my digital printer , being the best and fastest , most versatile and most reliable on the market.
For the amount of laminating I do , I could have bought a 1m cold roller sub 2k machine and still had more capacity than I knew what to do with. I have never ever even used the hot rollers.

[David Fairfield]

I admire people who take a risk based on a creative idea, even if the idea is a bit foggy and the risk involves substantial sum of their own money. If it weren't for such people, the world would be a lot poorer in many respects.

I also think its not unwise to buy the best, most capable tool you can, within your means. I've found that policy is less costly than buying cheap tools.

Its seems unfair to suggest people who buy lasers and don't make it somehow bought into a get rich fantasy, got suckered by the laser company or lack common sense. There's a million reasons why a commercial venture might not work out, no point in speculating and making assumptions.

Great that they took a chance and gave it their best shot. People like that tend to land on their feet anyway.

Dave

[Gary Hair]

Its seems unfair to suggest people who buy lasers and don't make it somehow bought into a get rich fantasy, got suckered by the laser company or lack common sense. There's a million reasons why a commercial venture might not work out, no point in speculating and making assumptions.


You are right that it's unfair to "accuse" someone of this, but I bet there are more than just a few who bought without any real business plan, solely based on the sales reps pitch.

Gary

[David Fairfield]

I'm sure whatever the motivations were, lessons were learned. Let's not kick a man when he's down.

Dave

[Jamie Collins]

Pardon my newness, but is it possible to try new avenues?

[AL Ursich]

Sometimes doors need to close before new doors get to open....

Case in point... A Creek Member Lisa started a business with a Epilog Laser and for a year or so was doing GREAT.... Her life situation changed and the Economy tanked and she made the decision to sell her laser on here. Found a buyer and she went to a job that she was not as excited about as doing the Laser Work..... This has a HAPPY ENDING.....

So Lisa finds a Job posting for a :D:D:D LASER ENGRAVER OPERATOR.... :D:D:D

O' MY....

Lisa is now a HAPPY operator of the laser in the picture.... Along with learning a bunch of other neat Equipment... With GREAT Benifits.... You GO GIRL !!!!!

I asked her to pop in here and say HI.....

So that is an example of how Selling ended up opening a door she would have never looked for.....

Now for me..... As a Laser Operator... Making Tourist Stuff..... I would have FOLDED a few years ago.... If it had not been for getting a Sears Compucarve to add more products to my business primarily Wood Signs....

I was able to keep the lights on this year and 2010 is starting of at a very fast pace..... It is going to be a good year.... I have the benefit of 2 VERY OLD Epilog Lasers and no monthly payments.... At least until they break.....

So a alternate direction for you is to add another element to your business..... Vinyl Cutter..... Sand Blasting.... Sublimation..... CNC / CarveWright?....... Something to keep the lights on for a while until things turn around....

Street Signs are another option..... All Engineering Grade Street Signs in PA need to be replaced in about 2 years with High Intensity Signs. I am PA Penn DOT Certified to make the Electro Cut Translucent Overlay Street Signs. It's EASY.... You must buy the blanks from someone like Grimco due to the chemicals prepping the metal. Not a Home based business treating sign blanks.... It's another option and the Vinyl Plotters are know to pay for themselves a few times a year.... And get one like I have with the photo eye and you can print Sticker and use registration marks and cut out stickers.... Lots of options..... to succeed or fail bigger.... I almost failed last summer.... I recovered....

Plotter pictures here.... http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=129639

Good Luck in your decision.

AL

[Dan Hintz]

Oooooh, she uses a YAG now... Lucky Lisa is her new name :)

[Dee Gallo]

Go Lisa! I'm so happy for you! It's karma that you would end up doing what you love and get paid for it too - good things DO happen to good people.

:) dee

[AL Ursich]

Oooooh, she uses a YAG now... Lucky Lisa is her new name :)


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1206616#poststop

AL

[James Stokes]

I think my post was misinterpreted, Just about every couple weeks some one is posting about buying a laser and making big money with it. They need to see that does not always happen. My business has taken a big down turn. But I am semi-retired and I get enough big jobs to cover the down times. More often than not the big job is sand blasting glass. I do get some big jobs for the laser on occasions. One I finished not long ago was $8000. I have another one coming up that will be about $6000. They are both custom wood signs.
I used to engrave and color fill some acrylic handles for a company. I charged $5 each. Some one is now doing them for $2 each. It is hard to compete with give away pricing. To many people have bought in to the "Buy a laser and get rich out of your garage" The first laser I bought the sales person told me so much crap to get me to buy. Almost none of it was true.

[Pat Meeuwissen]

Dan Keith, thanks for the info and I had some of these made several years ago by a local company, but just did not put the two things together. I assumed they were engraved but were probably laser cut.

On a side note my other hobby is model railroading and many of the manufacturers are now laser cutting kits, is this something you guys have thought about doing? I would love to be able to draw out a structure and have it cut but want it to be personal to me and not see 1000 plus copies on every layout pic shown. Is anyone into doing something like this and what would it take on my part? Pat

[Dan Hintz]

We have a couple of kit manufactures on here...

[Pat Meeuwissen]

We have a couple of kit manufactures on here...
Dan, do you happen to know the Company names? Or their forum names? Pat

[Dan Hintz]

David Fairfield is one... see this thread for some examples:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=89313

[Mark Ross]

And nobody should even think about doing something like dog tags with photo on one side and printing on the other...


$4.50? Okay, 2 bucks for postage, lets say it goes out in an envelope for 50 cents. So six bux...to cover set up for a one off, I just don't see it. The time to order materials, receive incoming materials, pull material, manipulate photo, type in text, run machine, check finished product, put in envelope...I dunno...

We do well at work, but I really can't talk about it...:)

[Doug Griffith]

And nobody should even think about doing something like dog tags with photo on one side and printing on the other...


$4.50? Okay, 2 bucks for postage, lets say it goes out in an envelope for 50 cents. So six bux...to cover set up for a one off, I just don't see it. The time to order materials, receive incoming materials, pull material, manipulate photo, type in text, run machine, check finished product, put in envelope...I dunno...

We do well at work, but I really can't talk about it...:)

Nice. You forgot to deduct the 15% +- fees for eBay and PayPal.

[Martin Boekers]

And nobody should even think about doing something like dog tags with photo on one side and printing on the other...

cgi.ebay.com/Personalized-Laser-Engraved-Dog-Tag-Custom-Photo_W0QQitemZ220537248445QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item33590b5abd

$4.50? Okay, 2 bucks for postage, lets say it goes out in an envelope for 50 cents. So six bux...to cover set up for a one off, I just don't see it. The time to order materials, receive incoming materials, pull material, manipulate photo, type in text, run machine, check finished product, put in envelope...I dunno...

We do well at work, but I really can't talk about it...:)

Maybe this is his marketing method, offers 10 of then at a price then includes a "Special Offers" sheet at regular prices for other items.
If not chances are he'll be posting his laser for sale in the near future!:D

Marty

[Martin Boekers]

I can remember about 10 years ago or so attending a franchising show, talk about a circus! Imagine hundred or so vendors selling their ideas and equipment on how you can get rich if you buy into their system.

It was like a carnival, some serious buyers actually doing research, but so many mom and pops wide-eyed looking to buy thier way out of a 9 to 5 job.

Some quality franchisers were there but the bulk were telling how to make fortunes with pad printers, button makers, mini donuts you name it.

It was quite the experience!


Marty

[Steve Clarkson]

cgi.ebay.com/Personalized-Laser-Engraved-Dog-Tag-Custom-Photo_W0QQitemZ220537248445QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item33590b5abd
$4.50? Okay, 2 bucks for postage, lets say it goes out in an envelope for 50 cents. So six bux...to cover set up for a one off, I just don't see it. The time to order materials, receive incoming materials, pull material, manipulate photo, type in text, run machine, check finished product, put in envelope...I dunno...

We do well at work, but I really can't talk about it...:)[/QUOTE]


Well Nick has been a member on here since atleast 2005......so he must be doing something right at $4.50 a pop...........

[Ross Moshinsky]

Well Nick has been a member on here since atleast 2005......so he must be doing something right at $4.50 a pop...........

I don't agree one bit. $6.50 for that is way too inexpensive. This is what I talked about earlier. Way too many hobbiests selling way too cheap. Will the market bear $15 for that? I don't know, but that's the minimum I'd take for that job.

According to a web-based eBay fee calc, after shipping costs($.50), Paypal, and eBay, you are left with $4.62. Let's say the material is worth $.50(which I think is low), you are left with $4.12. Each one takes probably 15-20 minutes. So we are shooting for roughly $16/hr. Given the software, hardware, and operator required to do one of these items, I'd say $16/hr is WAY too low. The only time I'd offer that product at $6.50 a pop is if I had an order of 100 of the exact same item with 1 line of variable text.

[Martin Boekers]

Well Nick has been a member on here since atleast 2005......so he must be doing something right at $4.50 a pop...........


Steve,

You are absolutly right. I may have pre-judged abit.

Some of us work hard to develop a system, so we don't re-invent it each time. It's tougher with photos as we all know, but as you said he must be doing something right.

This industry is changing, sort of what photolabs did quite awhile back. Quicker and cheaper prints, less margine but you have to kick up the volume.

As we can see it's not as easy to charge by the letter, word or sentence anymore. Thanks to computers and layout software it doesn't take the same amount of time and effort as it used to to set the type.

Time frames are the same way, granted we are not quite one hour as pizza deliveries and photolabs, but turnarounds are quicker than they used to be also.

The ones who adapt and figure out how to make it work will survive.

Yes, there will always be a call for individual high end work, but that takes a greater talent to pull it off.

It's easy to see from the posts over the years that people are diversifying getting into CNC machines, dye-sub, signage etc to make it work.

We are a "scrappy bunch" and for the most part perservere. Though it will take a bit more time and effort to keep moving forward in this economy.


Marty

[Mark Ross]

At $4.50 plus two bucks for shipping, he must have figured out a really great system. I looked into the photoengraveable dog tags, they are not as cheap as the others.

I dunno, I just don't see it. Then again, I haven't given it a lot of thought but unless these were all run in a batch with an auto flip and multi head lasers I am not sure all of the overhead is being factored in...meh...something to think about...

Not to hijack the thread, but there is also the cost of the machine operator. We have $10-12 an hour "button pushing" factory jobs going vacant around this area. People call up and ask are you hiring and before we can get their information we get 'click'.

I don't know that I could get a decent person that would have the know how to manipulate photos, set up jobs, run jobs, pack out jobs and so on for $10-12 an hour. I know my kids wouldn't do it back in the day.

However, the example was just an example to show what people may use as "a fair price". Dog tags on ebay, engraved, I have seen for as little as 99 cents plus 50 cents postage. How...the answer could be someone trying to corner the ebay market, not taking into account all costs, and so on. Desperation could be a factor as well.

I posted last year about a guy doing 12 X 12 inch granite photos, with free shipping for 20 bucks. HOW? Dunno...I should go back and see how well that worked for him.

For us our niche has nothing to do with the public. The laser just enhances other things we already do.

[Doug Griffith]

Unless he lives with his parents and runs his business out of their garage, there aren't enough hours in the day to run a business at his rates.

$16/hr * 160 hrs/month = $2560.00

I'm going to guess he is doing the tags at a loss in order to market his other services through eBay.

[rich shepard]

Dan, do you happen to know the Company names? Or their forum names? Pat
Hi Pat
I do railroad kits also doing mostly N and Z scale it's fun but a hard market to get into. Here's a sample in Z scale both the stock car and bridge are my kits.
rich

[Martin Boekers]

Photos are the things that make it tougher esp if you have to scan it.

I'm sure many of us arn't too far away from that in pricing nametags. but again that's different than photos.

I to think it's a loss leader, probably when he ships it it comes with a sell sheet for other items at a regular mark up.

It wouldn't be too difficult to set up an action in Photoshop that takes the image and places it on a variety of products on the sell sheet just to tantalize the impulse buyer;)


Marty

[Scott Shepherd]

so he must be doing something right at $4.50 a pop...........

Vistaprint prints business cards for free. I'm not sure you'll find too many printers that can compete with that, or too many printers that are happy competing against people that give things away for free.

There is no way he's making ANY money at $4.50 each. He might be engraving them with a galvo laser, which would mean the lasering takes about 5 seconds or less, but there's no way to handle a photo, or scan a photo and make it usable for that price.

If he's using a normal laser, like an Epilog or Universal or GCC, he's not making a penny on them, unless he's selling quantity of the same photo.

Maybe he'll post on here and prove many of us wrong, but I know that if I had a photo handed to me right now, by the time I opened my scanner software and told it to scan, it scanned it, and I opened the scanned photo up, we've passed the $4 mark on the "billable time" clock.

[Norberto Coutinho]

Maybe he is using a laser like this... very fast... few seconds and bingo.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNkwQNAepf4

[Dave Johnson29]

Maybe he is using a laser like this... very fast... few seconds and bingo.

Yup, that's a galvo laser. It moves the focused beam with mirrors. It's also Nd so it can mark metals directly.

Prices start around $50K

[Larry Bratton]

Maybe he is using a laser like this... very fast... few seconds and bingo.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNkwQNAepf4
Wow! Bet that bad boy costs some bucks!

[Norberto Coutinho]

Yup, that's a galvo laser. It moves the focused beam with mirrors. It's also Nd so it can mark metals directly.

Prices start around $50K
no... price in this link is 20k... I am thinking to buy one... but the custom fee tax here in Brazil is heavy.... around 70% .... I need to think a lot:)
.

ebay item58867c1e74

[Norberto Coutinho]

Wow! Bet that bad boy costs some bucks!
another video .... I am not the seller:) . I am thinking to buy one... but I am afraid about custom fee tax here in Brazil.... 70% ...
.

[Dan Hintz]

Don't forget, guys, since sales are through email, almost every pic is going to already be in digital format (i.e., no scanning necessary). What's our worst problem with pics? Small images... it's a dog tag, so that worry is essentially gone, too. Small item means a somewhat crappy result isn't a big deal. About the only thing he has to worry about is receiving pics with extremely low contrast.

I bet setup on each tag takes less than 5 minutes/piece, and he probably lasers 10+ in a batch. An hour of work, $60,not a great rate, but not bad for extra spending money.

[Mark Ross]

Maybe he employs an army of ZOMBIES! RUN! :)

With what we do, we do all of the graphic design and other support services for free, but we end up running a ton of production so it isn't that big of an issue.

Engraved pet tags at 85 cents with $1.60 shipping...$2.45...again, just not seeing it. People giving it away at or below cost...nice business model if you can sustain it.

That is why like people have posted...you ain't gonna become Bill Gates doing craft shows and one offs...

[Julie Nickerson]

I've been in this business for 12 years. The reason why I bought the laser is because the New Hermes system that I had, died. It was a dinosaur. I seen what lasers could do so I ended up getting that instead of a rotary engraving system.
My sister is a landscape photographer (hobby of hers). She sells her work at the waterfront in Halifax. Last year she wanted to add something more to her booth. She wanted to get into laser engraving and engrave her photos onto little trinkets and sell them for next to nothing. I sent her links for very expensive lasers and told her how the set up was with the air pumps and such. It would have to be vented and she lives in a tiny military apartment and that I'm sure they have a rule about operating a business out of their places. I offered to do this for her at my costs (she's my sister and I love her). But when she told me her prices for selling these, I refused to do them for her. For one she was not going to make any money and I told her that she would be cheapening the market. There are already too many people out there doing that already. I also told her that she was cheapening the photography market as well. Peed her off, oh well, tough love. :)

ETA: The local jewellery store sells the photo engraved tags for $50. Says it costs him $30 to have them done. Of course he won't go through me to get them done. Doesn't matter anyways, he hasn't sold one yet.

[Jim Beachler]

I make personalized items that all a one of. I am successful because I am doing a lot of them and by doing it over and over and over, I have got a rhythm down that I can do it much faster than others would think.

In fact when I talk to people about what I do, I fudge my time and tell them it takes 1.5 times longer that it really does. Almost always people ask me how I can get it done that quickly and still maintain my quality.

Also, the way I do some of my processes is backwards of what the norm is. Have also created special tools and programs to make the work flow easier and quicker.

My interest would be in the steps and procedures that he uses to make money at that level. I sure that I could learn a few tricks.

[James Stokes]

I will not touch a photo for less than $75

[Bill Cunningham]

Two years ago my export sales to U.S. customers was about 15-20k and money was at par. Last year my U.S. export sales were about 1-2k, this year absolutely nothing to the U.S. yet, and CDN$'s are a few points less.. However, over the same time line my Canadian sales have taken up all the slack from my lost U.S. sales and then some. So I can only assume the U.S. economy is far worse than ours.. Right now my turn around time is about 8 business days, and may get to 10 on some jobs. Quite frankly, I have lots of work.. It's amazing what a difference a border makes..