Run out on G1023slw TS arbor flange

[Shawn Siegrist]

I have a brand new G1023slw that I purchased in December, the original arbor flange had 6 thousandths of run out on it. Grizzly sent me a replacement arbor, installed replacement part and this arbor has 2 thousandths of run out on the flange. With the blade attached I'm getting 4 thousandths of run out. Is this acceptable? In my opinion it isn't acceptable but maybe I'm too picky.


Shawn

[Jason White]

How do your cuts look?

If they look acceptable to you, throw away your dial indicator and start building something.

Jason


I have a brand new G1023slw that I purchased in December, the original arbor flange had 6 thousandths of run out on it. Grizzly sent me a replacement arbor, installed replacement part and this arbor has 2 thousandths of run out on the flange. With the blade attached I'm getting 4 thousandths of run out. Is this acceptable? In my opinion it isn't acceptable but maybe I'm too picky.


Shawn

[Shawn Siegrist]

Saw marks all over the place, not happy with it at all!

[Don Jarvie]

You bought a jointer right? Set the jointer to remove 1/16th and add that to each cut on each side if you prefer.

Check to see if the wood is snug against the fence as you run it through the saw. On my saw I get a hair of drift that gives me a mark or two but still cuts to the required width.

That won't be a problem once the jointer is up and running.

[Dan Friedrichs]

With the blade attached, 0.004" is fine. Even premium blades will have >0.005" variations across their face.

I'd bet your blade marks are being caused by the fence alignment, not this runout. Set your fence to be ~0.002" away from the blade at the back, and see if that fixes your problem.

[glenn bradley]

Saw marks all over the place, not happy with it at all!

That sounds like more than a total runout of that amount might account for. Are the saw marks on each side of the cut? That is; If you rip a 1" strip off a board, are the saw marks on the piece you cut off or the piece you cut it from, or both? Same result with different blades, etc.? I have chased problems only to find that there was a different contributing factor than the origianl issue I was after.

[Shawn Siegrist]

If 2 thousandths of run out is acceptable then I will accept it. But if 2 thousandths isn't acceptable then I need a replacement part from grizzly.

[Howard Acheson]

What saw blade do you have?

Have you checked the blade to miter slot parallelism and the fence to miter slot parallelism?

[Dan Friedrichs]

If 2 thousandths of run out is acceptable then I will accept it. But if 2 thousandths isn't acceptable then I need a replacement part from grizzly.


IMHO, it could be less, but I doubt it's the reason you're getting saw marks. Tune up the blade and fence parallelism and see if things improve.

[John Thompson]

.002 is well acceptable and better than most machines on the market as .004-.005 is standard. The saw marks aren't coming from your run-out. I had a Uni-saw with about .008 run-out (common on the older Uni-saw) and didn't get saw marks. Look elsewhere like fence adjustment... feed rate.. etc. as if you are concentrating on run-out you are barking up the wrong tree IMO.

[Van Huskey]

.002 is well acceptable and better than most machines on the market as .004-.005 is standard.


You might be being to generous, FWW tested 9 hybrid saws and 6 measured .000, two .001 and one .002. One thing I will mention is arbor runout is notoriously hard to measure exactly and one can easily case a significant error. But I agree I do not think the .002 if accurate is causing the issue.

[Jason White]

Ditto on re-checking blade and fence parallelism with the miter slots.

No need for the dial indicator for this. I use a Starett combination square to make both the blade and fence parallel with the miter slots. Has always worked great for me on both my current cabinet saw and my previous RIDGID contractor saw.

I'm using a Freud 40T full-kerf combination blade in my Grizzly 1023 with no problems at all (no burning, no visible saw marks, etc.). In fact, the blade was parallel with the miter slots right out of the box and has stayed that way for more than a year now. I have never checked for arbor runout because, frankly, I don't care as long as my cuts look acceptable.

I did upgrade the stock fence with a Biesemeyer, however.

Are you using the stock splitter with your new Grizzly? If so, make sure that thing is aligned perfectly with the blade, too. Make a test cut or two without the guard on the saw to see if the splitter might be contributing to the problem.

Jason




If 2 thousandths of run out is acceptable then I will accept it. But if 2 thousandths isn't acceptable then I need a replacement part from grizzly.

[scott spencer]

Here is a procedure I was given to help offset runout. It's not mine and haven't tried it yet, but it looks worth a shot to me:

"Here is the procedure I used to cancel runout in the arbor flange and blade to minimize wobble.

Measure the runout in the arbor flange using a dial indicator. I zero the lowest value on the dial indicator so all values are positive. I marked a point on the outer edge of the flange where the maximum runout is with a silver sharpee meant for bare metal. The lowest value was near 180 degrees this point, but not exactly. Even though the runnout is very small, it is magnified at the outer cutting edge of the blade. So, if it is only .001, at the tip of the blade it is around .004 or .005.

Using a red sharpee, I marked quadrants on the blade near the reliefs or large gullets with sequential numbers. I do this on the side that faces the flange. If there are only 4, then I mark another spot in between. So a blade will typically have anywhere from 5 to 8 spots to measure when installed in the saw.

I put together a spreadsheet with columns for each quadrant mark and rows for an equal number of tests (e.g.: 5 quadrants, 5 rows). I also include a last row for a final test.

I then put the blade on the arbor, line up quadrant 1 with the mark on the arbor flange, and hand tighten the nut and outer washer. I set up a dial indicator to take a measurment as far out to the flat surface of the blade as possible. I rotate the blade and zero the lowest value on the dial indicator so all values are positive. I then take a measure measurement at each quadrant with a dial indicator. I record the values. I loosen the nut and move the blade to the next sequential marking. I repeat this process until I get to the last one.

I then determine which quadrant produced the lowest runout. I go the extra mile and figure out where it is between two best quadrants. That is figured out with a little math. I will move the blade to that position, retest it to check the runout. If it checks out right I mark a spot on the blade with a black sharpee near the blade. This way the next time I install the blade I just line up the black spot on the blade with the silver spot on the arbor flange.

This sounds like a lot of work, but it takes about 10-15 minutes per blade and you only have to do it once. The runout ranges I have seen with my delta side kick are from .015 to .005. Of course I would use it at the .005 position. That is the worst blade. My CMT ripping runs at about .002 in its optimum canceled out position."

[brian c miller]

How are you measuring... it may be your measurement method account from some of the error.

I did you use a standard AGD dial indicator (DI) or a Dial test indicator (DTI). A DTI is a better tool for measuring TIR but not many wood workers will have one.

How is the DI oriented to the arbor?

If the stem of the indicator is at even a slight angle to the base you've introduced what's commonly called Cosine Error. In simplest terms if the measurement is taken on an angle, the indicated values is larger than the actual value.

You can correct it by using this chart.

Correction Factor Table
Angle Degrees Multiply by
10 - 0.98
20 - 0.94
30 - 0.86
40 - 0.76
50 - 0.64
60 - 0.50

I'd start here:

What


The bearings on a Table Saw arbor are designed to allow it to rotate freely but not move side to side. As bearings wear, this side play becomes more pronounced and will cause vibration.
Why


Side play can affect the accuracy and reliability of meansurements needed to align the blade. Vibration from side play will produce a poor quality cut which will need further work (jointing) before glue-up. When the arbor bearings are in good shape, a well aligned saw with a high quality blade can produce an edge that is ready for glue-up without any further preparation.
How


http://www.tablesawalignment.com/images/blade-flatness1.jpg
Place the stylus of the dial indicator against the surface of the blade as shown in the photo above. The dial indicator is shown with an Offset Bar on the end of the plunger. This isn’t necessary, you can place the stylus anywhere on the surface of the blade plate. It doesn’t need to be near the table surface. Next, rotate the scale so that the large hand points to zero. Pressing on the sides of the blade will cause the reading to change. Basically, you are measuring how far the blade flexes as you press against it. Ideally, the reading should return to zero when you release the pressure. If it doesn’t, then you are measuring the amount of side play in the bearings. If it’s less than 0.001″ (one thousandth of an inch, one graduation on the dial), then there’s nothing to worry about. If it’s more than 0.001″ but less than 0.005″ then you’ll want to make note of it for future measurements (this play will influence the accuracy of your alignment). If it’s more than 0.005″, then you should replace the bearings (or forget about using this table saw for accurate work).


Assuming you've got tigh bearings, set us as before:


http://www.tablesawalignment.com/images/blade-flatness1.jpg

Start with the same setup you used to check for bearing side play. The Offset Bar on the end of the dial indicator plunger isn’t necessary, you can place the stylus anywhere near the edge of the blade. It doesn’t need to be near the table surface. Rotate the blade by hand and observe the reading on the dial indicator. If you are aligning a contractor’s style saw, then turn the blade by pulling on the belt. If it’s a cabinet saw, then you’ll have to do it by touching the blade. You have already seen how flexing of the blade can influence the reading so do your best to avoid it. Basically, you want to measure variations in the surface of the blade (its flatness) combined with any wobble in the arbor and arbor flange (run-out). You want to avoid changes in reading caused by flexing the blade or bearing side play.

http://www.tablesawalignment.com/images/mark-high-point.jpg

When you locate the point with the highest reading, mark the spot with a felt tip pen.

http://www.tablesawalignment.com/images/loosen-blade.jpg

Loosen the arbor nut so that the blade can rotate freely without turning the arbor.

http://www.tablesawalignment.com/images/rotate-blade.jpg

With the arbor remaining still, rotate the blade half way around (180 degrees) and re-tighten the arbor nut.

http://www.tablesawalignment.com/images/re-check-high-point.jpg

Now, with the dial indicator stylus against the blade as before, watch the reading as you rotate the blade. Stop when you find the highest reading. If you find the spot that you marked with the felt tip pen underneath the stylus of the dial indicator, then the variations are being caused by blade warp. If the total change in reading by less than +/-0.001″, then your blade, arbor and flange are in great shape. If it’s more, then you might want to think about getting a better blade, but there’s no reason to be concerned with the condition of your saw.
However, if the highest reading is nowhere near the spot you marked, then the variations are being caused by wobble (run-out) in the arbor and/or the flange. The next steps will reveal exactly where the problem is.

http://www.tablesawalignment.com/images/arbor1.jpg

Remove the blade and the throat plate so that you can place the stylus of the dial indicator directly against the arbor.

http://www.tablesawalignment.com/images/arbor2.jpg

This close up photo shows the stylus resting on an unthreaded portion of the arbor. You won’t be able to obtain reliable readings if the stylus is on the threads. If your arbor is threaded all the way up to the flange, then you won’t be able to measure arbor run-out. Also notice that the flange is dish shaped. If the dial indicator were exactly vertical, then the plunger would rub against the outer edge of the flange. So, the dial indicator has been tilted slightly so that there is clearance between the plunger and the flange. Normally, your most accurate and reliable measurements occur when the plunger of the dial indicator is perpendicular to the surface that you are measuring. This is one of those rare instances when you need to break this rule. The tilt is slight so the effect will be corectable (see table above).
Next, you want to rotate the arbor and observe the reading on the dial indicator. It’s easiest to do this with the belt(s) removed. The change in reading should be less than 0.001″. If it’s more, then you should replace the arbor or forget about using this saw for precise work. This mode of run-out is caused by a bent arbor. It could be a defect in manufacturing but most often it is caused by a kickback (wood binding in the blade during the cut). The problem cannot be easily corrected in a machine shop. A shop which specializes in straightening crank shafts might be able to do it but the cost would easily exceed that of a new arbor.

http://www.tablesawalignment.com/images/flange.jpg

In preparation of measuring flange run-out, tilt the arbor to 45 degrees. Place the stylus of the dial indicator against the outer rim of the flange. Notice how the dial indicator is tilted to match the tilt of the arbor. This arranges the plunger so that it is perpendicular to the surface being measured and will give you the most reliable and accurate readings. I’ve seen a number of people (authors, manufacturers, and other so called “experts”) demonstrate this measurement by leaving the arbor horizontal and tilting the dial indicator at a steep angle. This is a very poor practice that will cause the readings to be exaggerated. Now you know better than these “experts”.

http://www.tablesawalignment.com/images/flange-close-up.jpg

The close-up photo shows the stylus tip resting on the center of the raised rim of the flange. This is the part of the flange that contacts the blade and is therefore the only part that matters. As before, rotate the arbor and observe the reading on the dial indicator. Removing the belt(s) will make the task a lot easier. You should see no more than 0.001″ variation. If it’s more, you can bring the arbor to a machine shop and have the flange faced on a lathe.
So, what happens when you do all these tests and find nothing wrong? The blade seems flat, the arbor isn’t bent, and the flange runs true but you still see excessive run-out when you measure at the edge of the blade. Look for a piece of dirt, saw dust, or grime on the flange, or on the blade where it contacts the flange. Make sure that all the mating surfaces are clean before re-assembling and testing again. The problem could also be a burr or ding on the edge of the flange. A couple of swipes with a file could clear it all up.
These photos show the tests being demonstrated on my mid-80’s vintage Delta Unisaw. It has seen really hard use during the past 20+ years. In addition to thousands of board feet of lumber, this saw has seen many tons of aluminum across it’s table. Even so, it’s still accurate and still passes these simple diagnostic tests.

[John Thompson]

You might be being to generous, FWW tested 9 hybrid saws and 6 measured .000, two .001 and one .002. One thing I will mention is arbor runout is notoriously hard to measure exactly and one can easily case a significant error. But I agree I do not think the .002 if accurate is causing the issue.

With due respect Van.. I worked around American Muscle Car Restoration for about 30 years. That included the engine shop which built race engines and we had some good machinist.. very good. It would probably be a cold day in Haiti when I believed that FWW tested 9 hybrids and found 6 of them to have .000 arbor run-out. I personally don't believe the amount of machine work required to do that was put into an around $1 K machine with cast iron castings.

Perhaps R. Johnson from FWW did the test? R. Johnson is the same associate that several years ago did testing on the introductory Steel City 18" BS. He measured and reported the table out of flat at .018. In the same sentence he mentioned he measured with the pin out of the table. Not many caught that but the machine guys did which created a stink and led to an apology to SC in the next mags editors letters.

A cast iron BS table is ground at the factory with the pin in the talbe. It will not measure the correct flatness with it out. When it is out the table will spread form the relief slit where the blade is insert to get it on the saw. In the same review R J said the BS would not re-saw straight as the bearing guide shaft was bent.

It turns out he took is off the pallet and didn't bother to make the first adjustment which have to be made on all BS's. The SC 18" has 4 mico adjusters clearly visible on the side which would have moved the guide shaft to vertical if someone took the time. In his apology on that the excuse was he was under a print deadline and just didn't have time.

So.. again with all due respect I will totally agree with you that run-out is notoriously hard to measure. I will also add that I personally believe many of those that have purchased under $100 digital read-out don't really know how to measure to begin with. WW'ers trying to be machinist.

This is of course my personal opinion based on how many times on forums I have seen people with digitals corrected on their procedure. BTW.. FWW also tested the Sawstop Industrail Saw a while back and reported .004 arbor run-out which is excellent as this machine is pretty well made and machined. I tested one at IWF in 2007 and found about the same tolerance.

Maybe anyone considering the SS Industrial should take FWW tip and go for the hybrid with .000 run-out? Ya think... :D

Regards...

[Tony Shea]

I recently purchased the R4511 as this was what my budget allowed me at the time. I had the A-line-it system already and decided to use it on my table saw alignment. I was shocked when I did a measurement of my saws arbor run-out. It came out to be under .001" and really was closer to .000" as there was fluctuation while rotating the arbor. I have to admit that I was very impressed with Ridgid for these results. The fence on the other hand was a pain. I ended up with a dip of around .020" in the center of the fence near the center hole. I tried to get my service center to take it back to get a new one but he wouldn't as he didn't think I could get a better one. He also didn't have the right equipment to measure it and didn't really believe me. Not this issue caused me many saw marks as I just couldn't get the fence adjusted correctly. Not until I put some fence faces on with shims in the low spots did things start to work correctly. No more saw marks. I would agree with everyone else in that your poor performance has more to do with fence misalignment than your arbor run-out. That or an out of flat blade.

[Don Jarvie]

Are the rip cuts coming from the saw accurate. If the fence is set for 2 inches are you getting 2 inches the whole way?

Check to see if you need to kick the fence out at the top a hair. My fence wasn't cutting that accurate so I adjusted the fence and it's pretty good.

All I am concerned about is when I set the fence to 2 inches the rip is 2 inches top to bottom. With the kick out it looks like it will not be accurate but it is.

Give it a shot.

[Tony Shea]

I agree with the above. I keep my fence so that the back end of the fence is out away from the blade/miter slot by about .001". It isn't much but just enough that the back of the blade is not touching the peice after it's been cut. Some kick their fence out more and some keep it perfectly parallel. There are applications where I adjust my fence to be perfectly parallel such as raised panels, tenons, etc. But for basic rips I keep it out a tiny bit.

[Shawn Siegrist]

Did some checking last night into the table alignment and fence alignment. Checked the miter slots against the blade and the fence against the miter gauge, everything appeared correct according to my square. Looking at the fence something just didn't look right, I realized that it was angled toward the blade. I attached my dial indicator to my coping sled and checked the fence and it did in deed angle in towards the blade about 25 thousandths over the span of the fence. I also noticed that the HDPE that is on the fence varies a great deal, going to replace that with plywood or phenolic board this weekend. Realizing now that my square is off I checked the blade using the dial indicator and coping sled, it was off about 10 thousandths over the 10". Realigned the miter slots to the blade, and squared the fence to the miter slots using the dial indicator. Ran a few test cuts, made a few minor adjustments to the fence, and no more saw marks. Time to upgrade to a higher quality square, just bought that one in January from Lowes!

[Jim O'Dell]

Great news! I need to check my fence being square to the table too. I wanted to last night, after reading Don's post, when I got home, but my time evaporated quickly when I walked into the house. :rolleyes: Glad the problem is solved. I have a decent square from Rockler, but I'm sure it's not perfect either. Hope it's close. Amazing what quality alignment tools can do for you, huh? Jim.

[Tony Shea]

I wouldn't trade my A-line-it alignment DI for the world. It is just so easy to use and garuntees that I get accurate readings. And the same goes for my two Starrett combination squares, 6" and 12". Two of the best layout tools I've ever spent money on. Glad to see you got your issue resolved. It's great to have people here on whims notice to give you a hand with something that you can't figure by yourself.

[Jason White]

Just goes to show that you should never expect any new machine to be perfectly tuned up out of the box. If it's perfect, you're lucky. If not, no big deal to get out the square and it's a great opportunity to get more acquainted with your machine.

At least you now know how to change an arbor! ;)



Did some checking last night into the table alignment and fence alignment. Checked the miter slots against the blade and the fence against the miter gauge, everything appeared correct according to my square. Looking at the fence something just didn't look right, I realized that it was angled toward the blade. I attached my dial indicator to my coping sled and checked the fence and it did in deed angle in towards the blade about 25 thousandths over the span of the fence. I also noticed that the HDPE that is on the fence varies a great deal, going to replace that with plywood or phenolic board this weekend. Realizing now that my square is off I checked the blade using the dial indicator and coping sled, it was off about 10 thousandths over the 10". Realigned the miter slots to the blade, and squared the fence to the miter slots using the dial indicator. Ran a few test cuts, made a few minor adjustments to the fence, and no more saw marks. Time to upgrade to a higher quality square, just bought that one in January from Lowes!

[Rod Sheridan]

At least you now know how to change an arbor! ;)

Well Jason, you are correct that Shawn did learn some new skills.

If I had bought a new motorcycle for example however, I wouldn't be too pleased to have to change the swingarm shaft myself.

I'd be looking to the vendor/manufacturer to make that right..........Rod.

[Joe Leigh]

This is not the first time I've heard that some HPDE fence faces vary in dimension over their length. Instead of replacing it try making a few light passes through the planer to true it up.

[Shawn Siegrist]

I thought about taking it off and running it through the jointer once and then the planer once to true it up. Does anyone know if it would damage the blades of the jointer or planer.

I didn't mind having to set up the saw or the jointers, I know that is part of buying a new tool. But every tool that I bought from grizzly had to have replacement parts sent to me. Their prices are great but they have some major quality control issues to work through.

[Shawn Siegrist]

I thought about running it through the jointer and then the planer, does anyone know if that will damage the blades at all?

[Shiraz Balolia]

If I had bought a new motorcycle for example however, I wouldn't be too pleased to have to change the swingarm shaft myself.

Rod.

If the customer is able to "drive" his purchase back to us, we would have been happy to change out the arbor for him at no cost. We did the next best thing and sent out parts at no charge and even gave him a gift certificate for $100.00. We love it when a customer brings the actual machine back to us, but realize that it is very inconvenient to move bulky machines weighing hundreds of lbs.

To some of the other points:

Quite often (and I am not saying it is the case here) we find that the measuring instruments used to check runout and table flatness used by customers is not accurate and when we get the item back, put a Starrett straight edge to the table, find out there is nothing wrong. Later we find that the customer used a $9.00 "straight edge" purchased from one of the box stores. So, we spend several hundred dollars in freight both ways to find out there was nothing wrong, and this happens more often than not.
Also, machines need to be set up right. Many times they are good to go out of the box. Sometimes things have shifted a hair and need to be adjusted before using the machine. Our manuals usually address this point.

We are in the process of addressing the fence HDPE issue. Actually, the HDPE (the white polyethelene) face of the fence is fine. The issue is that the steel body behind the face can be slightly off and the HDPE simply follows that contour. From a user's point of view, I would put on a 3/4" thick Baltic Birch plywood face and joint it on the jointer for total flatness. Before you guys jump on me and state that you should not have to do that with a new machine, I said "from a user's point of view". I also have a tablesaw in my shop, amongst many other machines. I had to "play" with my fence to get it running perfect. I still get saw marks, but that is because of my laziness in spending the time to find out what is causing it. The arbor's fine. The blade is a Forrest. It does not bother me because I generally run everything over my jointer after cutting on the tablesaw, unless it is plywood.

[Rod Sheridan]

If the customer is able to "drive" his purchase back to us, we would have been happy to change out the arbor for him at no cost. We did the next best thing and sent out parts at no charge and even gave him a gift certificate for $100.00. We love it when a customer brings the actual machine back to us, but realize that it is very inconvenient to move bulky machines weighing hundreds of lbs.



Shiraz, perhaps I shouldn't have used a motorcycle as an example, it was a bad choice as it's mobile.

In my opinion, sending out a service person would have been the best from my perspective as a customer. That's what I would have liked.

I certainly agree with your points about customers making errors in measurement etc. Once you get into measured values that are in the hundreds or thousands of an inch, few users have the training or instrumentation to make those sort of measurements.

It's easy to make errors that are larger than the tolerances you're measuring for.

Have you ever considered having a field service group to do machine commissioning, repair and maintenance?

I don't know how many customers would want to pay for that, although you must have a pretty large number of installed machines across the USA.

regards, Rod.

[Joe Leigh]

I thought about running it through the jointer and then the planer, does anyone know if that will damage the blades at all?

I do it all the time with a product called King Starboard, same product (HPDE). It does make quite a mess though, the shavings stick to everything. It's completely safe for woodworking tools.

[Van Huskey]

Shiraz, perhaps I shouldn't have used a motorcycle as an example, it was a bad choice as it's mobile.

In my opinion, sending out a service person would have been the best from my perspective as a customer. That's what I would have liked.

I certainly agree with your points about customers making errors in measurement etc. Once you get into measured values that are in the hundreds or thousands of an inch, few users have the training or instrumentation to make those sort of measurements.

It's easy to make errors that are larger than the tolerances you're measuring for.

Have you ever considered having a field service group to do machine commissioning, repair and maintenance?

I don't know how many customers would want to pay for that, although you must have a pretty large number of installed machines across the USA.

regards, Rod.

First of all I don't have any issue setting up a machine when it comes in, I don't think you do either Rod. Machines are very heavy and are shipped, usually, half way around the world and even with woodworking machines we need some tolerences measured to the thousandth of an inch. It would be nice to have a tech set them up but we do not "pay" for that since it is SOP for woodworking machine manufcaturers (importers) not to do so.

From a repair perspective I think a large appliance seems to be a better analogy. If I buy a new fridge and it doesn't work properly a tech comes to my home and repairs the fridge, the same with a large TV etc. The key is here we have paid for that whether we know it or not. The other brands of woodworking machines that I own seem to work differently from Grizzly, when I have had an issue in the first week or 4 years later a tech comes to my shop and repairs the item assuming it is not something extremely simple, they have offered to do that in home but the extra time to schedule was not worth it to me. In these cases I had paid for that service, at least part of the higher price was the value added portion which extended me a longer warranty and in home repair. When deciding on a brand to purchase this should be one of the criteria which one considers.

Given the machine you get and the price you pay Grizzly is still a bargain and I own and have no qualms about buying other Grizzly machines BUT I take into consideration with each purchase that although great, Grizzly's customer service is at arms length, just like the purchase process. The one issue I do see is that Grizzly's prices are very attractive to beginning woodworkers who iif unaware of the situation could get in over their head quickly if they are presented with a machine that needs repair.

[Don Jarvie]

I learned the fence trick the hard way. I made an extension table for my Walker Turner and shifted my CMan XR24/24 fence to the right and put a new tape measure on it.

Got it all put on and I couldn't get the cuts straight. I checked the arbor, adjusted the fence guide bars every which way and when it still didn't work I decided to read the owners manual.

Low and behold I found out I could adust the fence. So I squared the guide bars and adjusted the fence and Bingo, straight cuts.

I'm still fine tuning it but overall when I set the fence to 2 inches I get a 2 inch piece.

I'm glad my lessons learned can help.

[Rod Sheridan]

You're correct, I don't mind checking that the machine is properly setup, nor do I mind making small adjustments to calibrate it.

I wouldn't however want to start replacing defective parts myself, I expect the machine to be ready to run when I have purchased it.

Years later, if through wear, I need replacement parts, I don't mind doing the repairs and calibration myself.

Being a vintage motorcycle nut, I have a well equipped shop with tools for machinery repair such as welding, bearing pullers, hydraulic press etc. etc.

I've only used a manufacturers field service personnel once, it was a new machine that I couldn't get the splitter to install properly on. General provided a field Tech who determined that the manual was backwards!

I guess that wasn't much of a problem, however it's the kind of support I expect on a new machine with problems.

Regards, Rod.

[Van Huskey]

I guess that wasn't much of a problem, however it's the kind of support I expect on a new machine with problems.

Regards, Rod.

I agree but I do realize I pay more for this support. I have had the same experience with WMH machines with regards to on site repair.

Lets take the ubiquitous 4 post 15" planer with a spiral head cutter for example, the Jet and Grizzly versions appear to be the exact same machine except for some cosmetics but the Jet will cost you close to 20% more shipped assuming they are the same machine, more or less, one thing you do get for the extra money is a warranty 5 times as long and in my experience on site support for repair. One just has to decide whether that $300 or so dollars is worth that to them. For me it is for some machines and not for others so I have some WHM cream and mustard and some Grizzly green. In the case of Grzzly I got extra green in US dollars, but since they now ship to Canada you and your Canadian friends can have a serving of loonie slver with your Grzzly green. Different strokes just like you two wheelers have Ducati, BMW, Yamaha and Harley.

[John Thompson]

You're correct, I don't mind checking that the machine is properly setup, nor do I mind making small adjustments to calibrate it.

I wouldn't however want to start replacing defective parts myself, I expect the machine to be ready to run when I have purchased it.

Years later, if through wear, I need replacement parts, I don't mind doing the repairs and calibration myself.

Being a vintage motorcycle nut, I have a well equipped shop with tools for machinery repair such as welding, bearing pullers, hydraulic press etc. etc.

I've only used a manufacturers field service personnel once, it was a new machine that I couldn't get the splitter to install properly on. General provided a field Tech who determined that the manual was backwards!

I guess that wasn't much of a problem, however it's the kind of support I expect on a new machine with problems.

Regards, Rod.

Rod.. you're in Toronto. General's main facility is in Montreal. General had distributors in probably every major city in Canada and a good number of smaller towns scattered about. Sending a rep out is not a problem for General because of that. I suspect in lieu of sending a rep to Yellow-knife they may handle it the same as Grizzly did.

Grizzly is in Seattle.. Pennsylvania and St. Louis... they don't have a distributor on every corner and that is how they keep the price down. Do you really expect them to send a rep to Rio Rancho N.M. .. Bangor Maine.. Miami Fl. when a machine has a defective part and still be able to maintain low prices? I don't think you do.

Grizzly has only 3 distribution locations.. showroom-service centers in the U.S. and if folks don't know that before they buy they should. IMO they should also realize that they ain't buying a Felder with enough profit margin to send a rep if necessary.

I have seen Powermatic.. Delta.. Steel City.. etc. send a rep when the problem was close to a service center. Otherwise... they simply send a part as Grizzly did. Grizzly even threw in a $100 gift certificate which is good business. If the problem could not have been corrected with the part.. Grizzly would have picked up the machine and sent another.

My personal opinion is that considering the price.. doing my homework before the purchase as any buyer should.... that is about as reasonable and fair as I could expect as a customer. ;)

[Terry Hatfield]

Never saw the head cheese from WMH or Genreral post on SMC...just saying. :D

[Brian Ross]

Living on the North side of the US/Canada border brings a smile to my face when I see that Grizzly ships to Canada. I am a big fan of Grizzly and believe that dollar for dollar they are one of the best bargains available. It is a business model that works and I am not prepared to pay extra to have someone come to my shop to hold my hand everytime I buy a new tool.

Brian

[Van Huskey]

I have seen Powermatic.. Delta.. Steel City.. etc. send a rep when the problem was close to a service center. Otherwise... they simply send a part as Grizzly did. ;)

But, WMH and Delta have TON of service centers. I have 11 WHM service centers within 50 miles and I live 30 miles from a city of just 250,000. I bet upwards of 80% of the US population is within service call area of one of their service centers.

Certainly there are some people who are outside of on-site service BUT they surely have learned that cons exist for living further out but for them the benefits outweigh them.

I like Grizzly machines and they CERTAINLY have their place in the market (and my shop) but to attempt to explain away price differences or customer support just because a company doesn't have a large support network does a disservice to the companies that provide this level of support. That support has value to people, some more than others but it is still value none the less. An extreme example but, would you buy a new car that was 20% less than an identical new car if the warranty was 1/5 as long and if it needed repair under warranty they would just mail you the part unless you brought the car to one of their three service centers in the country? Some people would and some people wouldn't depending on many factors like how close they were to one of the centers and how comfortable they were with fixing the car themselves, but the difference shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. This is just another factor people should weigh in their purchase. I do think you are making a similar point to mine BUT you seemed to downplay the other US importers service networks which are quite significant.

[Van Huskey]

Living on the North side of the US/Canada border brings a smile to my face when I see that Grizzly ships to Canada. I am a big fan of Grizzly and believe that dollar for dollar they are one of the best bargains available. It is a business model that works and I am not prepared to pay extra to have someone come to my shop to hold my hand everytime I buy a new tool.

Brian

I agree 100%, if you know what you are getting into and choose that route fine, I have done it and will continue to as well wth certain purchases. But, I have seen a lot of people buy a machine and then be dismayed that they have to fix it when it breaks under warranty. It is important that people are aware that there are other options with the associated price tag. Many people have less skill and/or more disposable income than others and choosing a machine with a more hands on approach to support may well be worth their money. I would expect Bill Gates to purchase machines with a red carpet treatment and I expect a lot of machinists to no LET someone else touch their machines! Most everyone else is in the middle but probably leans at least slightly to one side.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod.. you're in Toronto. General's main facility is in Montreal. General had distributors in probably every major city in Canada and a good number of smaller towns scattered about. Sending a rep out is not a problem for General because of that. I suspect in lieu of sending a rep to Yellow-knife they may handle it the same as Grizzly did.

Grizzly is in Seattle.. Pennsylvania and St. Louis... they don't have a distributor on every corner and that is how they keep the price down. Do you really expect them to send a rep to Rio Rancho N.M. .. Bangor Maine.. Miami Fl. when a machine has a defective part and still be able to maintain low prices? I don't think you do.

Grizzly has only 3 distribution locations.. showroom-service centers in the U.S. and if folks don't know that before they buy they should. IMO they should also realize that they ain't buying a Felder with enough profit margin to send a rep if necessary.

I have seen Powermatic.. Delta.. Steel City.. etc. send a rep when the problem was close to a service center. Otherwise... they simply send a part as Grizzly did. Grizzly even threw in a $100 gift certificate which is good business. If the problem could not have been corrected with the part.. Grizzly would have picked up the machine and sent another.

My personal opinion is that considering the price.. doing my homework before the purchase as any buyer should.... that is about as reasonable and fair as I could expect as a customer. ;)


John, I agree with all of your points, and I was aware that Grizzly has 3 locations in the US.

My point remains however that for many people a more customer serviced approach is a viable option.

I work for a company that has a certain number of field service personnel in Canada and the US. Where we don't have our own service personnel, we have contracts with third party service organisations that will go to the customer site on our behalf, and provide service and warranty repairs that are identical in scope and quality to our activities.

To our customers, the service is the same whether we have a service person near your community, or we use a service company that travels to your community for us.

I know that service has to be paid for, and I'm willing to pay for it.

It's not that I can't do it myself, I'm a Technologist so machinery and electrical items are very familiar to me. I service all my machines for routine maintenance and repair, however I wouldn't do it under warranty, that's the responsibility of the company that manufactured the item.

The cheque that I gave them in payment wasn't defective, and I expect the new machine in my shop to meet all of the specifications they provided me with.

If my new dishwasher doesn't work, the appliance company doesn't ask me to fix it, they send a rep, or a contracted service company out to fix it.

That's what I expect and I expect to pay for it.

I have no problem with a company offering a less expensive option such as fix it yourself or send it back, just don't expect me to believe that it's great customer service.

Oh, and if Johhan Felder had to get involved with a problem with my machine, I'd wonder what was wrong with the company.

The president of my company doesn't get involved in field service issues, that's what we technical people do.

Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Never saw the head cheese from WMH or Genreral post on SMC...just saying. :D

I've noticed that as well, of course as I indicated in another post, when the President has to get involved in a customer service issue, it seems to me that there's something lacking in the company.

In the company I work for, the field issues are resolved at the field service levels to the customers satisfaction........Rod.

[Shawn Siegrist]

I just wanted to clarify that when I purchased my tools from grizzly I knew that I would have to assemble and then fine tune the tools to get them running correctly. I originally purchased:

Tablesaw G1023slw - Arbor had 3 thousandths of run out, arbor flange had 6 thousandths of run out. This was verified by a buddy of mine who is a machinist.

Resolution - New Arbor was shipped to me, I swapped out the arbors. Checked the new arbor, arbor was dead on, flange has 2 thousandths of run out. I was still getting saw marks after replacing the arbor, it wasn't as bad but they were still there. After checking and rechecking everything I found that my square was off slightly. Resquared the miter slots to the blade using a dial indicator. Resquared the fence to the miter slot using the dial indicator. Saw marks are now gone. One last minor issue, HDPE on the fence is not flat. I'm going to run it through the jointer and then the planer this weekend, if that doesn't work I will replace with birch plywood or phenolic material.

Jointer G0452 - Jointer had quite a few chips in the paint and one major dent in the cabinet, infeed bed was scratched. Upon assembly and trying to set up I discovered that the outfeed bed was not parallel to the infeed bed. The begining of the outfeed bed would be at TDC, 11 inches past the begining of the bed I had 20 thousandths of drop! This was again verified by my friend who is a machinist using his steel straight edge and feeler gauge.

Resolution - I tried to shim the bed parallel with soda cans but couldn't correct the problem, end up taking the jointer back to grizzly and purchasing a G0656. That jointer was checked to make sure that the beds were parallel, which they were if you checked in one spot. However the outfeed bed was not level, the back edge dropped 4 thousandth compared to the front edge. I shimed the back of the bed and now I can edge joint and face joint with out having to adjust the outfeed bed.

Lathe G0452 - Lathe bed had multiple deep scratches

Resolution - New Lathe bed was sent to me, replacement bed had primer splattered all over the face of the bed. Carefully removed primer with a putty knife and goof off.

8" Wet Grinder T10097 - Grinding wheel and leather wheel both wobble badly. Contacted Grizzly and they said the leather wheel always wobbles, but the grinding wheel shouldn't. Grizzly said they would replace grinding wheel, I called them back and asked if I could return the item.

Resolution - Returned product. At the time this seemed like a good deal, but after assembling and turning it on I realized that in this case you defintily get what you pay for! I would never recommend this product to anyone, in fact I would strongly discourage anyone from buying it.


Final thoughts - Grizzly offers a great price on some excellent machines. there are however some quality control issues. With each problem Grizzly's Customer Support helped me correct the problems and sent out replacment parts. So my final opinion on Grizzly is that they offer a great price on their machines, they have some qualifty control issues on parts, fit and finish, and you had better be willing to accept these issues as is or be prepared to replace parts or exchange/return the item. Grizzly's customer service is very good, the only knock is that they don't have a service department, but that is one of the reasons why their prices are lower than the competition. I am happy with my purchases, grizzy sent me the parts that I needed to correct the problems with my machines and gave me a $100 gift card for all of my time spent working on the machines. When it comes time to upgrade my dust collector and to purchase a bandsaw I will consider Grizzly for thos purchases. I do hope that Grizzly will look into some of the issues that I brought to their attention and correct them.


Shawn

[Rod Sheridan]

Final thoughts - Grizzly offers a great price on some excellent machines. there are however some quality control issues. With each problem Grizzly's Customer Support helped me correct the problems and sent out replacment parts. So my final opinion on Grizzly is that they offer a great price on their machines, they have some qualifty control issues on parts, fit and finish, and you had better be willing to accept these issues as is or be prepared to replace parts or exchange/return the item. Grizzly's customer service is very good, the only knock is that they don't have a service department, but that is one of the reasons why their prices are lower than the competition. I am happy with my purchases, grizzy sent me the parts that I needed to correct the problems with my machines and gave me a $100 gift card for all of my time spent working on the machines. When it comes time to upgrade my dust collector and to purchase a bandsaw I will consider Grizzly for thos purchases. I do hope that Grizzly will look into some of the issues that I brought to their attention and correct them.


Shawn

Sounds like a very fair assesment Shawn, thanks for the update and I hope you enjoy your new machines........Regards, Rod.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I guess I have a different opinion.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect the same performance out of a $1,000 saw you would expect from a $13,500 Northfield.

When something is manufactured for a lower price, something has to give. If not, why pay more?

[Shiraz Balolia]

I've noticed that as well, of course as I indicated in another post, when the President has to get involved in a customer service issue, it seems to me that there's something lacking in the company.

In the company I work for, the field issues are resolved at the field service levels to the customers satisfaction........Rod.


I don't HAVE to get involved. I choose to get involved because I care about what we sell to customers and am an advanced user of the stuff we sell.

I am sure that people that own Grizzly machines (not keyboard "experts" that make elitist comments) appreciate the fact that I get involved.

[Rod Sheridan]

I don't HAVE to get involved. I choose to get involved because I care about what we sell to customers and am an advanced user of the stuff we sell.

I am sure that people that own Grizzly machines (not keyboard "experts" that make elitist comments) appreciate the fact that I get involved.

Well Shiraz, that's very generous of you to do that for your customers.

Do you have any feedback on my earlier question regarding field service?

Regards, Rod.

[Jim O'Dell]

I've noticed that as well, of course as I indicated in another post, when the President has to get involved in a customer service issue, it seems to me that there's something lacking in the company.

In the company I work for, the field issues are resolved at the field service levels to the customers satisfaction........Rod.

Rod, I see this a little differently. I see the owner of a company that understands woodworkers, and knows where they hang out. ;) Instead of having a worker monitor the forums, he checks in himself. If you think about it, the forums provide a free report card on how a company is doing. It gives Mgt a realistic insight into how things are going, and possibly if something needs to be tweaked along the way. There are times when Shiraz pops into a thread with answers, not just when there is a problem. I see this as proactive from the top. Jim.

[John Thompson]

But, WMH and Delta have TON of service centers. I have 11 WHM service centers within 50 miles and I live 30 miles from a city of just 250,000. I bet upwards of 80% of the US population is within service call area of one of their service centers.

Certainly there are some people who are outside of on-site service BUT they surely have learned that cons exist for living further out but for them the benefits outweigh them.

I like Grizzly machines and they CERTAINLY have their place in the market (and my shop) but to attempt to explain away price differences or customer support just because a company doesn't have a large support network does a disservice to the companies that provide this level of support. That support has value to people, some more than others but it is still value none the less. An extreme example but, would you buy a new car that was 20% less than an identical new car if the warranty was 1/5 as long and if it needed repair under warranty they would just mail you the part unless you brought the car to one of their three service centers in the country? Some people would and some people wouldn't depending on many factors like how close they were to one of the centers and how comfortable they were with fixing the car themselves, but the difference shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. This is just another factor people should weigh in their purchase. I do think you are making a similar point to mine BUT you seemed to downplay the other US importers service networks which are quite significant.

"My personal opinion is that considering the price.. doing my homework before he purchase as any buyer should.... that is about as reasonable and fair as I could expect as a customer" . ;) .. Sarge

This is from my post.. I'm not downplaying the other U.S. Importers at all Van.. nor doing them a dis-service! Simly pointing out that if Grizzly is on your short list of "I may purchase from".. every company that is on that short list should be researced by the purchaser in advance to understand exactly what they are going to get both before and after the sale.

Knowing in advance that Grizzly does not have a vast service network and some other U.S. importers do should be part of your decision and not just base it on price alone. It is the customers responsibility to know what they are getting into. With the aid of the inter-net that is not a huge task IMO.

[Rob Hough]

I don't HAVE to get involved. I choose to get involved because I care about what we sell to customers and am an advanced user of the stuff we sell.

I am sure that people that own Grizzly machines (not keyboard "experts" that make elitist comments) appreciate the fact that I get involved.

I'm of the opinion that staying in touch with the user community is a great way of steering your company. I personally think it says a lot (good thing) about a company whose President keeps themselves in touch with its user base.

Being an owner of several Grizzly machines... I completely appreciate his involvement and attention given to the user community.

If Mr. Toyoda was more involved with his company's user base... maybe they wouldn't be in the bind they're in today.

[Rod Sheridan]

I guess I have a different opinion.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect the same performance out of a $1,000 saw you would expect from a $13,500 Northfield.

When something is manufactured for a lower price, something has to give. If not, why pay more?

Ken, I agree completely, I guess my opinion is based upon comparing a dishwasher and a tablesaw of the same price.

I do get home service under warranty on the dishwasher.

And no I wouldn't expect a $500 dishwasher to be the same as as a $1,500 dishwasher, just like I wouldn't expect the table saws to be the same with such a large price difference.

I think it comes down to what the purchaser expects, and that's what I'm curious about.

Why do we expect home service on an appliance and not on a tool?

I wonder if it's because we like messing around with tools, yet regard messing around with a dishwasher as a chore?

I know I'm guilty of that sort of mentality, I'll make stuff for a tool, or spend time modifying it, yet if I had to do the same with a dishwasher I'd be cranky.

How about you Ken, do you have the same bias as me in that regard?

Regards, Rod.

[John Thompson]

John, I agree with all of your points, and I was aware that Grizzly has 3 locations in the US.

My point remains however that for many people a more customer serviced approach is a viable option.

I work for a company that has a certain number of field service personnel in Canada and the US. Where we don't have our own service personnel, we have contracts with third party service organisations that will go to the customer site on our behalf, and provide service and warranty repairs that are identical in scope and quality to our activities.

To our customers, the service is the same whether we have a service person near your community, or we use a service company that travels to your community for us.

I know that service has to be paid for, and I'm willing to pay for it.

It's not that I can't do it myself, I'm a Technologist so machinery and electrical items are very familiar to me. I service all my machines for routine maintenance and repair, however I wouldn't do it under warranty, that's the responsibility of the company that manufactured the item.

The cheque that I gave them in payment wasn't defective, and I expect the new machine in my shop to meet all of the specifications they provided me with.

If my new dishwasher doesn't work, the appliance company doesn't ask me to fix it, they send a rep, or a contracted service company out to fix it.

That's what I expect and I expect to pay for it.

I have no problem with a company offering a less expensive option such as fix it yourself or send it back, just don't expect me to believe that it's great customer service.

Oh, and if Johhan Felder had to get involved with a problem with my machine, I'd wonder what was wrong with the company.

The president of my company doesn't get involved in field service issues, that's what we technical people do.

Regards, Rod.

I do understand your point Rod. But.. I can't compare dishwashers sold every day by distributors in about every town in the U.S (or automobiles with the same scenario) to Woodworking machines that are somewhat limited in sales. I am simply saying a purchaser should do research in advance of buying to understand exactly what they are getting before and after the sale.

That's the customers responsibility and should not be an assumption. The price alone compared to others should throw up a red flag. WW'ing machine companies don't compete on the same level as dishwashers.. home appliances.. computers.. auto's you have to have for daily use in home and business. They are unique and the volume of sales are not even remotely close to essentials. And throw in an extremely down economy where luxury items are not priority over essentials.

As far as Shiraz's thoughts on why he does not have a customer service in the field... I won't attempt to speculate. That could be answered best by
Shiraz himself. I have my guesses but again that would be pure speculation.

If I personally decide to own a Grizzly machine I could opt to purchase Shop Fox which does have a rep about 40 miles from my door. I will pay more to do so but I can get the machine serviced local by doing so. I know that in advance as I do my home-work when shopping machines just as everyone shopping should.

And if Shiraz decides to have local reps.. I am available to service machines in the State of Georgia as I am retired. For that matter... I am available to be flown to Seattle to tune his personal TS in his shop that he stated he just hasn't gotten around to yet. Everything has a price attached to it in reality. Know what you are getting for the price you paid! :)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rod,

I can find dishwasher retailers in Lewiston, Idaho. Therefore I would expect local service.

The only stocking woodworking retailer locally is HD. The LOML bought the best saw they stocked at the time ...a Ridgid TS3650 to replace my old direct drive Craftsman of 20+ years. She noticed me looking it over when they first arrived at the store. I wasn't about to tell her I didn't want that particular saw. I don't believe HD provides local service on this saw.

In as much as the local dishwasher will have a larger market even in my sparsely populated area than a woodworking retailer or manufacturer, I would expect the local dishwasher retailers to provide local service. And they do....there are several...but it's a bigger local market and competitive.

There is no BMW retailer in the area and no they don't provide local service either.

The point is this.

It's unreasonable to expect to buy a product at a fraction of the price of another similar product and expect it to have the same fit, finish and meet the same specifications.

I hope you don't think my Ridgid table saw would meet the same standards or specifications as a Canadian built General or a US built Northfield or a Hammer etc. Except for patriotic reasons, why would someone pay more?

One knows whether or not they get local or in home service when they buy something. This often is a matter of locale. I probably wouldn't get it where someone in a metropolitan area might. But....I choose to live in a sparsely populated, remote area and I accept those incoveniences.

BTW....I own 1 Grizzly sander and I am not on the Grizzly payroll.

The argument I am presenting holds true regardless of whom someone buys woodworking tools, cars etc from..... You get what you pay for and if you pay more, then you should expect more from the company and the product. If not, you got taken advantage of IMHO.