New Uni, No Brake

[Paul Ryan]

The recent thread considering the pro's and con's of the new uni, and the sawstop PCS, has got me thinking.

Delta has been working on the design and development of the new Uni since sawstop technology has been around and proven. My question to myself and now the rest of the woodworkers and speculators here is. Why do you think Delta didn't develop their own brake system and offer it on their new Uni. Make it an accessory like a 52" fence. It isn't hard to add the electronics or take them off. The electronics would have added cost to the saw. But I think it would have really made their saw more attractive. Considering the price it is now usually in the $3200 range. Add $1000 for the electronics and the saw is in the price range of the ICS.

I can't believe it is a legal issue. Look at the automobile companies. Early on not all cars came with air bags. It didn't become standard until the government made it mandatory. So the legal begals of the auto companies must know how to protect their clients from lawsuits on cars that didn't have air bags. Delta could use the same defense as the auto manufacturers did.

I am biased since I own a sawstop. But after reading the thoughts of those that are deciding on a new premium saw. I think many would buy a new Uni that has a break on it, over a sawstop in a heart beat. Due to Delta's history of dependability. It seems to me, month after month more and more consumers see the benifit of sawstops saftey device, and are chosing their saws because if it. My local woodcraft says they sell 5 to 1 sawstops to everything else. If delta offered a saw with a break I bet the ratio would be closer to 3 to 1.

Early on in sawstop's life, if the same question was asked, "which saw, uni or sawstop. The majority would have said uni. Now after reading the responeses the majority seems to say sawstop. The saw and company has shown some dependability, and woodworkers now know it isn't just a gimic. But I think it is more than that. Many of us understand what a life saving device it can be. That is what has made sawstop so popular.

I am interested in others takes. Pro's & cons of a Uni with a break.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Patent issues. I'm sure Delta has a room full of people trying to find a way to stop the blade that doesn't violate Sawstop's patent, but I doubt there's a good way to do it that is substantively different than Sawstop's way.


FWIW, I'd buy a Sawstop over a Uni even without the brake. Their customer service seems second-to-none. I'd rather deal with a smaller company where I can actuall talk to a real person, than a mega-congolmerate.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm fairly sure that SawStop has a bunch of patents on the saw stopping mechanism - to the point where it might be tough for another company to use a brake mechanism on their saw. I haven't looked up the patents but if the original patents issued about five years ago, there's easily 12 more years of patent protection, maybe more.

We probably won't see any other companies with blade brakes until the patents run out. There's no reason for SawStop to license another saw manufacturer now.

Mike

[Rob Steffeck]

From the research I did when trying to decide which saw I would buy just 6 weeks ago, I don't think you can add a brake to the Uni and say that its comparable to the SawStop ICS in any way, shape, or form. As far as quality of materials / fit / finish, the new Uni is in the same class as the PCS, not ICS. Quite frankly, I thought the new Uni was a bit below the quality of the PCS. So from that respect, you are getting a killer deal with the PCS because you are getting a saw in the same class as the new Uni with the addition of a brake for the same price.

So to answer your poll question, would I consider a new Uni with a brake for the price of an ICS, I would say 100% no. The Uni with a brake would have to come in at the PCS price.

If I could add a brake to my new General 650 for $1,000 I would definitely consider it.

[Jeff Bratt]

I can't believe it is a legal issue. Look at the automobile companies. Early on not all cars came with air bags. It didn't become standard until the government made it mandatory.

They didn't become mandatory until after the original patents expired.


Delta could use the same defense as the auto manufacturers did.

Delay, and deny the new technology is worth implementing??? Naw, they'd never do that...

[Van Huskey]

I avoid buying anything with a break.

[Kevin Groenke]

Why support the copycat why you can support the innovator?

Who's going to give you better customer service?

[johnny means]

There's no reason for SawStop to license another saw manufacturer now.

Mike

Steve Gass has already said that he would never give any company, including his exclusive rights to his blade brake technology.

The other companies just don't think they can turn a profit by making safety their top priority. I guarantee that they have discussed this at length in their boardrooms and have spent thousands doing study groups and crunching numbers. As long as they can sell machines based on their history, why would they look forward?

I own an ICS and would have chosen a brake equipped Uni if it meant I could get the Unifence as an option.

[Gary Muto]

[QUOTE=Jeff Bratt;1360358]They didn't become mandatory until after the original patents expired.

cars had airbags in the mid 70's. Nobody wanted them. that was back when most of us didn't use the seatbelts that were mandatory.

[Rod Sheridan]

I avoid buying anything with a break.


What if it had a brake?

Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Why support the copycat why you can support the innovator?

Who's going to give you better customer service?

I'm with Kevin, I'm hard pressed to think of any real innovation over the last 30 or 40 years, except for SawStop and the European manufacturers.

My home shop was full of General equipment, however over the last 2 years the jointer, planer, shaper and tablesaw have been replaced with a Hammer A3-31 and a B3 Winner.

Don't get me wrong, the General equipment was very nice, and as a Canadian I like having home grown equipment.

Unfortunately the NA equipment hasn't kept pace with the improvements and innovations in other equipment.

So yes I would reward SawStop for innovation, as opposed to Delta, whom I presume were one of the manufacturers not innovative enough to grab the braking system when it was offered to them.

Regards, Rod.

[Van Huskey]

What if it had a brake?

Regards, Rod.

Thats a different issue..:p

If the PM I bought earlier this year had a brake as an option I would have bought it as long as the price stayed about $500 under the ICS. Not considering the brake I think the ICS is the best 10" cabinet saw for sale right now, then the PM, Delta and General. For me the PCS although a GREAT saw sits below them. FWIW the PM has tied the ICS in magazine reviews but I still think the ICS is better.

You seem to love the Euro machines the way I love their cars. But NA iron is a lot like a NA pickup, most of the rest of the world doesn't see it like we do but many here wouldn't know how to funtion without a truck. You can relearn to do the same jobs with a van or an SUV but most here don't won't to take the time/effort/cash to fix what they don't perceive as broken.


Paul mentioned in the OP that Woodcraft sells the SS 5-1 over other saws, I do not doubt this as I have heard similar accounts from many WC employees, but I submit it s not the whole story. WC has exclusive rights to the SS in many areas and the price structure prevents the ability to shop them around even if long distance mail order was allowed. In contrast my PM would have cost over $1,000 more had I bought it at WC considering the price (I got a great deal), shipping and tax.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thats a different issue..:p

If the PM I bought earlier this year had a brake as an option I would have bought it as long as the price stayed about $500 under the ICS.

Did you avoid buying the SS because you liked the PM more, or did you not feel the cost difference was justified?

You seem to love the Euro machines the way I love their cars. But NA iron is a lot like a NA pickup, most of the rest of the world doesn't see it like we do but many here wouldn't know how to function without a truck.

I agree, I initially selected the General TS over the Euro machines because of the lack of Euro dealers and no dado capability. I really liked the sliding table, riving knife and safety features however.

Now that Felder have a dealer in my town, and have dado capability, I went with the Euro product. It is different, and takes a different approach sometimes, I'm still re-training myself:D.


Paul mentioned in the OP that Woodcraft sells the SS 5-1 over other saws, I do not doubt this as I have heard similar accounts from many WC employees, but I submit it s not the whole story. WC has exclusive rights to the SS in many areas and the price structure prevents the ability to shop them around even if long distance mail order was allowed. In contrast my PM would have cost over $1,000 more had I bought it at WC considering the price (I got a great deal), shipping and tax.

Thanks for the info on WC, being Canadian I'm not familiar with pricing and sales territories in the US.


Regards, Rod.

[Matt Meiser]

Don't forget that SS reportedly wanted at least a few hundred dollars per saw to license the technology. And that was back when you could buy a top of the line TS for something like $1500.

[Karl Brogger]

With out taking the time to read others posts.


I am interested in others takes. Pro's & cons of a Uni with a break.

Pro's- Keeps people from cutting themselves when they're operating a dangerous tool stupidly

Con's- Allows people to think of it as a harmless tool, when its not.
Adds cost
Adds complexity


With that said, I mauled my thumb a while back with my head fully locked up my ass. I'm actually glad I did it. Didn't remove a digit, and reminded me to not make really stupid cuts, in realy small pieces. Still not in the market for a Sawstop.

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs121.snc3/16848_1242529594596_1570037517_30620117_3191996_n. jpg

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs241.ash1/16848_1242529634597_1570037517_30620118_6598910_n. jpg

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs141.snc3/16848_1242529674598_1570037517_30620119_6111572_n. jpg

Ignorance should be painful.

[glenn bradley]

I just avoid buying anything new-Delta.

[Art Mulder]

Personally, I'd buy the Sawstop PCS, but that isn't in the poll...

One thing missing from the Unisaw pros is the up-front controls for easy on/off of the riving knife. That's a good design, I think.

[Karl Brogger]

You must like pain if you're still not in the market for a SS. ;)

If you say so.


(edit)- I'm actually glad I didn't have a Sawstop. I did zero damage to my thumb other than some ripped up skin. I did not destroy a $95 blade. I did not destoy a $XX brake cartridge. I was back to work the next day.

and I'm wiser for it.

[johnny means]

If you say so.


(edit)- I'm actually glad I didn't have a Sawstop. I did zero damage to my thumb other than some ripped up skin. I did not destroy a $95 blade. I did not destoy a $XX brake cartridge. I was back to work the next day.

and I'm wiser for it.

Hmmm, a near miss like that and your happy because you didn't have to throw away a throw away blade.

[James MacArthur]

If you say so.


(edit)- I'm actually glad I didn't have a Sawstop. I did zero damage to my thumb other than some ripped up skin. I did not destroy a $95 blade. I did not destoy a $XX brake cartridge. I was back to work the next day.

and I'm wiser for it.

I don't post often. But this is one of theeeee most stupid things I've ever seen written down. Seriously. That incident could have played out any number of ways ending up with you loosing a digit.

[Karl Brogger]

I don't post often. But this is one of theeeee most stupid things I've ever seen written down. Seriously. That incident could have played out any number of ways ending up with you loosing a digit.

I like learning from my mistakes. Not just shrugging them off and grabbing more parts. Cost me about $8 in bandages, and served as a reminder to not be stupid. I fail to see the issue, but perhaps I'm not enlightened enough.

Or would you rather I blame the saw, the blade, maybe sue someone in the process?

[Mike Henderson]

I like learning from my mistakes. Not just shrugging them off and grabbing more parts. Cost me about $8 in bandages, and served as a reminder to not be stupid. I fail to see the issue, but perhaps I'm not enlightened enough.

Or would you rather I blame the saw, the blade, maybe sue someone in the process?
I think his point is that you could have lost your thumb. Another inch and you might have. So the question is which is more valuable to you? The $95 blade or your thumb? Most people would much prefer to lose a blade than a thumb.

Mike

[I would prefer to lose the saw, and maybe even my car, than my thumb.]

[Dan Friedrichs]

...and served as a reminder to not be stupid.


By your logic, all car accidents are caused by "stupid", as well.


You might not want a Sawstop, but there people who value the safety differently. There are surgeons who post on this board - the value of their fingers is literally in the 10's of millions of dollars over their career. I bet they don't mind springing for a $3k saw, even if they do practice perfect TS safety habits.

[Karl Brogger]

By your logic, all car accidents are caused by "stupid", as well.


You might not want a Sawstop, but there people who value the safety differently. There are surgeons who post on this board - the value of their fingers is literally in the 10's of millions of dollars over their career. I bet they don't mind springing for a $3k saw, even if they do practice perfect TS safety habits.

Ryan, I'm really sorry for rail roading your thread.

And Dan, my safety comes from using my head. Once in a while I need a reminder. In this case it was the end of a 16hr day in the shop trying to get things done and so I could ship it out the next day.
And yes, any accident caused by you, is by being stupid, whether from inaction/action/or ignorance. So with your car accident theory, if you get rear ended, then no, thats not from being stupid. But then again, there's always the choice of doing something dangerous like driving anyway.

I like how you always compare woodworking to driving, wood generally doesn't involve factors like other people.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I like how you always compare woodworking to driving, wood generally doesn't involve factors like other people.

An SMC member recently purchased a SawStop because a friend was seriously injured when a coworker dropped a piece of plywood (or something) on his back while he had the table saw on. Admittedly rare, but such things happen.

[Van Huskey]

Originally Posted by Van Huskey http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1360637#post1360637)
Thats a different issue..:p

If the PM I bought earlier this year had a brake as an option I would have bought it as long as the price stayed about $500 under the ICS.

Did you avoid buying the SS because you liked the PM more, or did you not feel the cost difference was justified.




Thanks for the info on WC, being Canadian I'm not familiar with pricing and sales territories in the US.


Regards, Rod.



I prefer the PM by a long shot over the PCS and the few hundred difference between those two was a non-issue to me, the PM is just a better saw had it been the same price as the PCS I would still own a PM. The ICS is a better saw by a narrow margin BUT the price premium grew to over $1,500 for a saw I only thought was a smidge better and FWW seems to agree so I figured I wasn't crazy. The value of the brake was less for me than others, I recognize it has value but as mentioned in another thread WWing is by far the least dangerous hobby I endulge in and thus I am probably more comfortable with calculated risk than the majority of wood workers. Again if the PM had a brake option for say $500-700 I would have bought it but at over $1500 for what I considered an equal saw it did not work in my risk benefit analysis.

Woodcraft isn't alone, SS keeps their prices firm with all their dealers just like Festool and unlike Festool restricts their dealers from sellng outside their given territory. This is a business model I avoid feeding whenever possible.

[johnny means]

I like learning from my mistakes.

I like learning from other peoples mistakes, I have seen enough mutilations and amputations to know that it could happen to me and I should do everything within reason to avoid it.

If stupid actions lead to injury and smart moves avoid them, doesn't it stand to reason that having the foresight to buy a Sawstop is a smart move. While, on the other hand, getting injured on another saw makes buying it a stupid thing to do.

[Van Huskey]

I like learning from other peoples mistakes, I have seen enough mutilations and amputations to know that it could happen to me and I should do everything within reason to avoid it.

If stupid actions lead to injury and smart moves avoid them, doesn't it stand to reason that having the foresight to buy a Sawstop is a smart move. While, on the other hand, getting injured on another saw makes buying it a stupid thing to do.

By the same (faulty) logic wouldn't it be equally stupid to by a SS if the day you die flech never set of the SS's brake?

But I see your point, not every injury in the shop or in the rest of life is a result of operator error (or stupidity) SS provides a limited amount of shop safety insurance and like any other polcy one has to decide if it is worth the money to them. One nice thing about a SS is that it is a active policy in that it actually mitigates one type of accident where most policies just ease the monetary strain once the accident occurs.

[mreza Salav]

I like learning from my mistakes. Not just shrugging them off and grabbing more parts. Cost me about $8 in bandages, and served as a reminder to not be stupid. I fail to see the issue, but perhaps I'm not enlightened enough.

Or would you rather I blame the saw, the blade, maybe sue someone in the process?

Maybe you don't value your limbs as much as others but if they are valuable to you:

Here you admit you make mistakes; it's the nature of human beings. To think you never make a mistake is, pardon me, just being naive. I have yet to see one human being that doesn't make mistakes. This mistake could have easily resulted in missing a digit. To think that you have learned from this and won't make another mistake is the bigger mistake.

[Chip Lindley]

I mauled my thumb a while back with my head fully locked up my ass. I'm actually glad I did it. Didn't remove a digit, and reminded me to not make really stupid cuts, in realy small pieces. Still not in the market for a Sawstop. (Painful Photos Omitted) Ignorance should be painful.

Mr. Salav, it is my take that Karl DID LEARN from his experience. He won't be doing what he did again! Some people take every precaution ahead of time to avoid accidents. Their preoccupation may go to extremes and be construed as paranoia or phobic. Other folks may have never given it a second thought, until it happens! Karl suffered and learned, without paying the ultimate penalty for his "ignorance." Just because he is not running out to float a large loan for a shiny new SawStop does not say to me that he did not learn!

After 30 years of WWing I finally worked my way up from a Craftsman pos to a decent Rockwell CS to a PM66 keeper! I can say with most certainty I will not buy another 10" TS, short of fire, tornado or vandalism.

Neither the New Unisaw or SawStop fit my budget (even if I were looking) *Used* is the only way I go! A poor boy pays his money and takes his chances! If I were running a commercial shop with employees, I would take a long hard look at the SS, if just for liability purposes. Acquiring expensive machinery in a business sometimes becomes very attractive when it can lower the tax bill. For a hobbiest WWer, it's more subjective; ego and pride of ownership can be involved, along with a genuine concern for personal safety.

Which is Best? That remains to be seen. SawStop is a stride forward in American innovation. Delta's image suffers at present, and younger buyers are not of the generations that remember when Delta and it's predecessors was a name to be reckoned with. Same with Powermatic. It's present offerings generally do not equal it's past as the Gold Standard. Neither Delta or PM has an emergency brake; SawStop does! But only time will tell if SS market share keeps it profitable and a viable business. Does Dr. Gass have the clout? Black & Decker Corp. certainly does, IF they care to persue it.

Sometimes, the best solution is not The One that the general public clamors to buy! Case in point: Apple vs. MicroSoft. Steve Jobs had the better, faster operating system. But, Bill Gates was in the right place at the right time to sell a mediocre system to IBM, who was itching to pitch it's Personal Computer to the public! IBM had the clout. The rest is history.

Perhaps another PhD will come up with some cheap technology which will approximate what SawStop does, and license it to every TS-maker in the known Universe for a paltry sum. It may not be as good as SS, but it will be better than nothing. It will cut only half way thru a hotdog, and probably force SS out of business.

[johnny means]

Mr. Salav, it is my take that Karl DID LEARN from his experience. He won't be doing what he did again!

That depends on what "that" is, if "that" is making an error, he certainly will be doing "that" again. The circumstances may change, but he surely has not learned to avoid every conceivable and inconceivable mistake.

[Mitchell Andrus]

If you say so.


(edit)- I'm actually glad I didn't have a Sawstop. I did zero damage to my thumb other than some ripped up skin. I did not destroy a $95 blade. I did not destoy a $XX brake cartridge. I was back to work the next day.

and I'm wiser for it.

There is a bit of wisdom here. Assuming the machine will protect you can allow you to drop your guard. Making 'stupid' cuts..... you can get hurt in so many ways that won't be protected/prevented by a saw brake. The fear factor keeps us on our toes.

Having said that, a SS is in my future.
.

[Karl Brogger]

The fear factor keeps us on our toes.


Exactly! Couple a 16hr day with a whole week of them, a barely do-able schedule, needing to get the job shipped the next day, and you can easily get stupid. I had lost repect, just like I have done in the past with virtually every single other piece of equipment in the shop. Having the strange dog nip at you, is a good reminder not to pet it. Doing the cut I was doing, it would have been really hard to remove my thumb as the blade was sticking out of the table less than 1/2".

This is still probably #2 in my worst work related injuries list. #1 being when I put a chisel entirely through my finger. That was blind dumb luck nothing major happened, other than some swelling and a hole in/out. #3 being a tie for skinning the back of three fingers on a countertop vs smashing a hand in a pnuematic clamp.

Not even in the top ten, for motocross, snow boarding, or streetbike injuries. Sure, you need to mitigate risk. My biggest failure was that I was working dog ass tired, with way to much on my mind. A saw with a brake is one lonely piece of equipment in a room full of sharp spinning objects. It breeds an enviroment where that respect is easily lost, and then transfers to other pieces of equipment.

[Mike Wilkins]

Nothing against the Sawstop and its technology. But I am of the opinion that safety is between the ears, and not with some machine that does more to protect its company owners from potential legal action. I just purchased a new tablesaw and the Sawstop was not even in the running. I was looking for a sliding tablesaw and guess what. They don't have one. Not sure if I would be willing to purchase one, since the blade stopping mechanism would have added to the cost. Would it save my fingers. Of course. Is it a great machine for schools and newbies to the woodworking world. Yes. But sales of other saws is still robust, so there must be others out there who think like me.
Call me happy with what I got and no regrets.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks for the info on the PM/SS decision..............Rod.

[Sean Nagle]

An SMC member recently purchased a SawStop because a friend was seriously injured when a coworker dropped a piece of plywood (or something) on his back while he had the table saw on. Admittedly rare, but such things happen.

If plywood is getting dropped on your back in your shop, you have some very serious safety issues that aren't going to be solved with technology.

[Paul Ryan]

Sorry Fellas,

I did not start this thread so it would become another sawstop technology for or against. There are those that don't believe the technology is for them, and those that believe it is for them. My question was, "do you think delta dropped the ball by not releasing a saw that has some type of blade brake on it."

Personally I do. I don't buy the fact that Delta couldn't develop a different product because of all the sawstop patents. Personally I think it was delta conducting business as usual. Not trying to adapt and be prepared for the future. I had always wanted a Uni and when I bought my PCS saw. But if I knew that in the near future Delta would have been releasing a saw with a blade brake on it. I would have waited and bought Delta's new saw. I wouldn't have even considered a sawstop. But I think delta really dropped the ball. I think their sales would have exploded if they would have released a saw with and without the technology.

It is my opion that the sawstop PCS saw without the blade brake is a better saw than the PM2000 for a variety of reasons. I believe the saw to be equal to the new Uni. Now when you take into account what the saws cost. If you don't think you need the saftey of a sawstop I think the PM is the way to go. Many times they can be purchased for 800-1000 less than a PCS and Uni. But if you are going to spend 3k-3200 for a saw I think it is a no brainer. We can debate all day weither not having your head up your but will save your fingers. But it is a proven fact that everyone has bad days and does dumb things. And if and when that day comes I don't want to loose a digit.

I really think there are 2 different people. Those that put a price on their fingers, and those that cannot put a price on their fingers. There are many other tools in the shop that can cut off a finger. But the vast majority of the injurys happen on the table saw. That is why I believe it is so important to have the added saftey. It is not added security, but just a device to prevent a life changing injury when we have a lapse of judgment. It cannot make up for being an idiot. But as I have stated we all make bone headed decisions occasionally. And I know for a fact owning the sawstop has made me more saftey conscious than I was before I owned it. Don't ask me why, but I am more focused and more respectful of all of my tools. I am not saying an injury wont happen, knock on wood. But I am more careful now than ever before.

[Chip Lindley]

That depends on what "that" is, if "that" is making an error, he certainly will be doing "that" again. The circumstances may change, but he surely has not learned to avoid every conceivable and inconceivable mistake.


....reminded me to not make really stupid cuts, in realy small pieces.

That's what THAT is Johnny. I read it loud and clear.

Really Johnny? There is a way to avoid every conceivable mistake? Even the inconceivable?? Sounds like a great late-night INFOMERCIAL! The first mistake would be sending money to LEARN HOW!

Julius Caesar said: Experience is the best teacher. Many suffer wake-up calls to snap them into stark reality. They have learned the hard way! But, if one repeats the same action over and over, expecting a new, different outcome, that is called insanity.

[Dave Lehnert]

I was told by a competing sales rep that Grizzly sells more tools than all the other manufactures combined. If true, you could only come to the conclusion that a blade break, popular with some, is not in high enough demand.

When the blade brake was first introduced the inventor tried to get it mandated by the government for all saws. My guess now that the inventor is manufacturing his own saws, and has a good following ,they may or may not sell or license the idea.

Looking at the poll results it seems woodworkers would buy the sawstop over the unisaw with a break (If available) so there would be little reason to for Delta to offer a break.

[Karl Brogger]

I'm curious how well a the Sawstop saw, with out the stop would sell. It looks to be decently made, but so does the hunk of garbage Powermatic 66 that I bought new in 05'.

[Don Jarvie]

[QUOTE=Dave Lehnert;1361845]I was told by a competing sales rep that Grizzly sells more tools than all the other manufactures combined. If true, you could only come to the conclusion that a blade break, popular with some, is not in high enough demand.

Bingo - When the SS outsells all the others and the #1 reason is the brake then the others will follow.

There are plently of designers at Delta, etc that can comeup with a brake and they probably have it already but the demand isn't there to justify the cost, at least not right now.

[Van Huskey]

I was told by a competing sales rep that Grizzly sells more tools than all the other manufactures combined.


If true, you could only come to the conclusion that a blade break, popular with some, is not in high enough demand.




The ultimate reason for both those points is price. Grizzly would have a much tougher time selling tools if their price was in line with PM and Delta, just as Hyundai would if their cars were priced the same as Honda, not that Hyundai and Grizzly don't sell solid products.



Not picking on any particular person but is a BRAKE not a break. Although, the Sawstop blade brake does tend to break blades, so I suppose blade break or blade breaker is also accurate...:o

[Greg Portland]

Steve Gass has already said that he would never give any company, including his exclusive rights to his blade brake technology.

The other companies just don't think they can turn a profit by making safety their top priority.Exactly... he is not -giving- anything, he is willing to license technology for $$$. That fee (purported to be higher than average) + cost of the saw simply does not make sense to the bean counters at these companies.

This kind of reminds me of when Grizzly tried to sell Baldor bench grinders. Baldor said they didn't want their business so Grizzly designed and built their own. The same will eventually happen with Sawstop, someone will find or create a market niche where they can design and build a TS + brake (new tech or licensed tech) at an attractive price point. For now, market forces are only allowing one company in this area. If OSHA law changes then we'll probably see that market change.

[Paul Ryan]

There is no difference in break, or brake it is just my horrific spelling, and the fact that I dont check my posts most of the time before I submit them.

Grizzly sells so many saws because they are inexpensive. A grizzly saw doesn't have the fit and finish of a sawstop. Grizzly hasn't put the money in assembly procedures and packaging as sawstop. Sawstop has put more money into the appearance of their saws as well as some of the materials. I am not trying to stick it to grizzly but they are not the same equipment so you really cant compare.

I believe if grizzly installed a similar brake on their saws but kept the prices down, $1800 for a cabinet saw they would continue to sell very well. Sawstop advertises the best selling cabinet saws, so I wonder what they base that on.

I dont think you can put a brake on every saw. If you try to stick $300 technology on a bench top saw. Many people simply couldn't afford a table saw. But their definatly is a market for higher end saws. If grizzly had offered a 1023 with a brake that would be in my shop instead of the black saw, due to price. But I was forced to spend more because of the quality of the saw and limited choices.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I'm with Kevin, I'm hard pressed to think of any real innovation over the last 30 or 40 years, except for SawStop and the European manufacturers.

Regards, Rod.



Innovative marketing?

Here is a good example.
The new Pull saws are becoming very popular in EU and with the supreme marketing soon to become popular in US and physical therapy clinics.

Another EU innovation?
Search ebay and you may find a 40 years old US pull saw
for $10.00 instead of $1.000.00

The SawStop is only one example of US innovation.
The Tiger stop is another.
.

not trying to start anything but your post is simply false.
Yes, we have some good innovations from some european manufactures
and the same time we have some real innovation here.

[Mike Henderson]

Innovative marketing?

Here is a good example.
The new Pull saws are becoming very popular in EU and with the supreme marketing soon to become popular in US and physical therapy clinics.

Another EU innovation?
Search ebay and you may find a 40 years old US pull saw
for $10.00 instead of $1.000.00

The SawStop is only one example of US innovation.
The Tiger stop is another.
.

not trying to start anything but your post is simply false.
Yes, we have some good innovations from some european manufactures
and the same time we have some real innovation here.
What's a Pull Saw? I know a Japanese saw cuts on the pull stroke but I never heard of a power pull saw.

And what's the Tiger Stop. The football team that beats the LSU tigers?

Mike

[Van Huskey]

What's a Pull Saw? I know a Japanese saw cuts on the pull stroke but I never heard of a power pull saw.

And what the Tiger Stop. The football team that beats the LSU tigers?

Mike


Dunno about the pull saw but the tiger stop flip stop on crank and steroids. http://www.tigerstop.com/

[Mike Henderson]

Dunno about the pull saw but the tiger stop flip stop on crank and steroids. http://www.tigerstop.com/
Wow, I'll say it's on steroids. I'll bet that baby cost a few pennies.

Mike

[Karl Brogger]

Wow, I'll say it's on steroids. I'll bet that baby cost a few pennies.

Mike

About $5k, minus the saw. On the short list of widgets I need to buy.

[Dave Lehnert]

Grizzly sells so many saws because they are inexpensive. A grizzly saw doesn't have the fit and finish of a sawstop. Grizzly hasn't put the money in assembly procedures and packaging as sawstop. Sawstop has put more money into the appearance of their saws as well as some of the materials. I am not trying to stick it to grizzly but they are not the same equipment so you really cant compare.

I believe if grizzly installed a similar brake on their saws but kept the prices down, $1800 for a cabinet saw they would continue to sell very well.

I think you can compare. It goes without saying that if Grizzly offered a Sawstop type saw for $1,800 it would sell well, Very well. Fact is, It's not possible. If it was, Grizzly would be all over it. IMHO.
Every product we buy, Price is the factor. I own a JET cabinet saw. Cost was $1,200. Sawstop is what $3,000? If all of a sudden the Sawstop was $1,200. Yes, Then I would have purchased that saw in a heartbeat. Take the brake off the sawstop and it is still a very well built saw worthy of anyones consideration.

[Thomas Hotchkin]

I was not planing to replace my 20 year old Delta Unisaw. Until both Grandsons asked when they could start working in grand-paws shop. My first thought was this great WW together, second thought was I need a Saw Stop soon. I have a good supply of band-aids for hand tool accidents. But power tools are never forgiving. And yes A Saw Stop or a TS with this technology.

[Dino Makropoulos]

What's a Pull Saw? I know a Japanese saw cuts on the pull stroke but I never heard of a power pull saw.

And what's the Tiger Stop. The football team that beats the LSU tigers?

Mike

Mike,
The pull saw was ( 40-50 years ago?) invented and made in US.
A tablesaw that you pull the motor with the blade to the wood.
Similar to a RAS but with the motor under the table and the blade fully exposed.

The latest " re- innovation" of all EU manufacturers.
Talking about marketing without any regard for safety.

Another innovation is the small combo machines.
Never enough material support and always dangerours.
A miter saw that can be use as a table saw.

Never mind the upside down circular saw "systeX"
I first saw a friend plunghing his worm drive into a table andd use a level as a tablesaw fence.
I never thought that the same concept may cost $ 2000.00... 30 years later because it was re-invented and made in EU. :rolleyes:

[Carl Babel]

I had read a while back that the primary reason that the major manufacturers do not license the SawStop technology is that doing so for only some of their product line would expose them to much greater liability risk. In other words, equipping the high-end saws with brake technology would be an admission that saws are inherently dangerous, they know this, they have the ability to make them all safe, but they don't do so, because doing so would mean that they would get fewer sales. The theory went further to say that in a court of law, this would be grounds for someone to successfully sue them for damages.

I have no way of knowing if this is true, but it certainly seems plausible.

[Carl Babel]

Karl, I am glad that your injuries weren't any worse. I also sincerely hope that your having learned from this experience is enough to assure that you won't do it again.

I know myself too well to think that I would have the same assurance. Too often, I cave in to pressures, deadlines, etc to try to finish "just one more". Luck carried me through more than one near miss. My SawStop ICS now has that job. Fortunately (for my wallet), I haven't triggered the brake yet (its been over two years).

[Van Huskey]

I had read a while back that the primary reason that the major manufacturers do not license the SawStop technology is that doing so for only some of their product line would expose them to much greater liability risk. In other words, equipping the high-end saws with brake technology would be an admission that saws are inherently dangerous, they know this, they have the ability to make them all safe, but they don't do so, because doing so would mean that they would get fewer sales. The theory went further to say that in a court of law, this would be grounds for someone to successfully sue them for damages.

I have no way of knowing if this is true, but it certainly seems plausible.


Probably just conjecture gone amok. There are plenty of examples of this across many industries. An excellent analogy is the car industry where they have always had more safety (both passive and active) in the more expensive cars in their line OR even the less expensive ones depending on the model cycles. One can get sued for anything by most anyone but making it through the court system and prevailing is a another matter. Quite frankly one would probably have a hard time getting through the appeals process even if they won a jury trial, it is in the interest of public policy to allow manufacturers to introduce safety features on their most expensive products and letting it filter down over time. The alternative is a chilling effect on any safety advancement. Sawstop is a niche company and the large companies will allow them to forge the way and help ferret out the proper business model to follow. The major machine importers only derive a small porton of their profit from cabinet saws and Grizzly, WMH and Black and Decker can afford to sit and watch the progression of the blade brake niche and enter it when they see fit from a finacial standpoint.

Bottom line is the other tool importers almost surely made their determination to forgo blade brakes in a meeting with Wharton types instead of in a meeting with Yale school of law types. There will likely be a day when you can by a Delta with a blade brake unless someone builds a better mousetrap all together, a laser saw with a kerf that is mesured in angstroms perhaps. Until that day we have Sawstop which provides three solid saws across a range of prices for those that can afford them and determine that the price premium has equal or greater value to them.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I had read a while back that the primary reason that the major manufacturers do not license the SawStop technology is that doing so for only some of their product line would expose them to much greater liability risk. In other words, equipping the high-end saws with brake technology would be an admission that saws are inherently dangerous, they know this, they have the ability to make them all safe, but they don't do so, because doing so would mean that they would get fewer sales. The theory went further to say that in a court of law, this would be grounds for someone to successfully sue them for damages.

I have no way of knowing if this is true, but it certainly seems plausible.

Carl,
This is reality.
I offered safety devices to two large manufactures...for free.
The people in charge have nothing to do with woodworking.
No clue or interest in safety and later ( three years later )
The legal dept. decided not to include any safety devices due to liability on their axcisting amputators.
Only SawStop can fix the problem because they don't have any amputators in the market. If they can come up with a better system to stop the kick-back they can easily fix all their saws before thir numbers go up
and make it impossible to do it.

I tried to get insurance for some safety devices for tablesaws and other tools
and the rates was out of reach.
Nothing is easy and we need to support SawStop and others instead of looking how to support executives with no regard for safety.

[Karl Brogger]

Nothing is easy and we need to support SawStop and others instead of looking how to support executives with no regard for safety.

No, people need to understand that there is inherent risks to anything, and that inattentiveness has consequences. It the operators job, not the saw's, to determine if he is qualified to perform the task at hand. It applies to lots of things, and not just the operation of a tablesaw. It is the employers job to hire people that are either qualified, or capable of learning. The tool is just that, a tool. Unless you tell me stories of an actual failure on the saw's part, (blade flying out, etc), it carries no responsibility. This same thinking will eventually make forks hard to find if it goes on long enough.

A shop I worked at a younger guy removed a finger on a moulder, but he didn't do it on one of the cutters. Morons are very creative in their stupidity.

[Don Morris]

Karl, the guy who was inadvertently hit from behind and his hand was thrown into the blade comes to mind. S___T happens, the guy was practising good safety habits, but it didn't matter. Sort of like driving along the highway and someone comes over the center line and hits you. That's why we have seatbelts and airbags. Items that help us even when we're following perfect safety procedures. I don't have a SS. Unfortunately, I'm retired and on a strict budget. I just can't justify the expense. I complain because my gov't doesn't adhere to the budget so I can't tell LOML I should bust our budget to get one, but if it were otherwise....

[mreza Salav]

A close friend of mine is an MD (specialist in occupational medicine). He mostly consults for companies and sees people that have been injured on job sites all day. He told me one of the highest rates of insurances are for roofers; the reason is many fall eventually and get serious injury/die if they don't use the harness. Based on statistics, insurance companies have figured out many do not use the harness (it's cumbersome/un-manly or they think if you are careful and don't make a stupid mistake it doesn't happen ) and for sure many do fall.
He said, once he told a father whose son started working with him to tell him to use the harness. The father's reply was: I've been doing this 30 years and have never fallen, so he can do it without it! I'd call that reply stupid!! (if he hasn't fallen in 30 years doesn't imply anything about the chances of his son falling).
I have done a roof without harness of course; it wasn't that difficult to walk and sure if you are careful it would reduce the chance of slipping/falling, but if one makes a mistake and falls, I wouldn't call him moron or stupid.
If he wasn't thinking ahead and use the harness, maybe.

[Sean Nagle]

If I were in the market for a new saw to replace my old Uni, it wouldn't be a traditional cabinet saw with a brake, it would be a slider. I think that is actually the better mousetrap.

The post about the Tiger Saw is very enlightening. Industrial "wood processing" machines often take a very different approach to presenting wood to the cutter or the cutter to the wood.

[John Callahan]

[QUOTE=Jeff Bratt;1360358]They didn't become mandatory until after the original patents expired.

cars had airbags in the mid 70's. Nobody wanted them. that was back when most of us didn't use the seatbelts that were mandatory.

Airbags were promoted by the Ralph Nader/ Joan Claybrook sector as a a response to the lack of seat belt use. Folks forget that in in the beginning air bags killed and injured people- severe injuries and the decapitation of children and infants were sometimes the result of the gov't mandate. Deaths due to airbag deployment peaked at 53 in 1997. The carmakers had to petition the government to allow less forceful airbags, i.e "supplemental restraint systems". It wasn't a device ready for prime time when first released. As for saws a RK/useable guard would be far higher up my priority list than a blade brake.

[Karl Brogger]

Karl, the guy who was inadvertently hit from behind and his hand was thrown into the blade comes to mind.

Kinda grasping at straws here aren't we? Yeah, stuff does happen. There is no way to stop it. Now what if the brake doesn't work? That could happen too. There's far too many what ifs out there to account for them all.

I hope the guy who did the bumping was at the very least fired, or better was beaten within an inch of his life for his sin.

[Dino Makropoulos]

The post about the Tiger Saw is very enlightening. Industrial "wood processing" machines often take a very different approach to presenting wood to the cutter or the cutter to the wood.

Sean, I owned and ran an industrial woodworking dimensional plan.
Cut to side unusual cut-offs and second grade wood.
Turning $500.00 scrap into $30.000.00 ( a small 20 feet container)
in one day.
The only machines in my plan was industrial US made very "Smart" tools...
30-40 and even 60 years old.

The only machine that was dangerous and in a locker was...
a new portable tablesaw.

[Van Huskey]

[QUOTE=Gary Muto;1360486]

Airbags were promoted by the Ralph Nader/ Joan Claybrook sector as a a response to the lack of seat belt use. Folks forget that in in the beginning air bags killed and injured people- severe injuries and the decapitation of children and infants were sometimes the result of the gov't mandate. Deaths due to airbag deployment peaked at 53 in 1997. The carmakers had to petition the government to allow less forceful airbags, i.e "supplemental restraint systems". It wasn't a device ready for prime time when first released. As for saws a RK/useable guard would be far higher up my priority list than a blade brake.

ALthough those 53 in 1997 may not have been the ones killed, even the first generation air bags probably saved far more lives than they took.

I do agree that riving knives and easy to use effective guards would probably reduce injury far more than blade brakes.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Now what if the brake doesn't work? That could happen too.
Kind of grasping at straws there, aren't you? AFAIK, there has not been a single incident of the brake failing to fire.


There's far too many what ifs out there to account for them all.
Right. That's why people account for the MOST LIKELY ones.



I hope the guy who did the bumping was at the very least fired, or better was beaten within an inch of his life for his sin.
Well, I'm sure the guy who caused the accident did so on purpose, so clearly that makes sense. I also bet the guy who is now missing fingers is consoled by such thoughts now that he can't practice his trade any longer.

[Paul Ryan]

No, people need to understand that there is inherent risks to anything, and that inattentiveness has consequences. It the operators job, not the saw's, to determine if he is qualified to perform the task at hand. It applies to lots of things, and not just the operation of a tablesaw. It is the employers job to hire people that are either qualified, or capable of learning. The tool is just that, a tool. Unless you tell me stories of an actual failure on the saw's part, (blade flying out, etc), it carries no responsibility. This same thinking will eventually make forks hard to find if it goes on long enough.

A shop I worked at a younger guy removed a finger on a moulder, but he didn't do it on one of the cutters. Morons are very creative in their stupidity.


I complete agree and disagree with this statement. People do need to understand the inhernt risks with tools. But if we shops weren't allow to hire people that make mistakes, every shop would be one man shows. We need to understand everyone, and that mean everyone makes mistakes. It happens nothing you can do about it. These mistake can come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

I think we need to support saftey and promot safe pratices. But by all means not to dismiss a saftey device as influential as a blade brake. That is just plan stupid if you ask me. If the technology is there why not use it. That is like telling people to quit buying cell phones because it has made our communication too easy. It doesn't make any sense.

I am just very supprised that by now, since blade brake technology is proven. That more manufacturers haven't embraced it. It is really sad. The state of these manufacturers.

The only way this is going to change is if we support saftey and continue to buy saws with blade brakes. I think sawstop is a great example and will prove that saftey means something to us.

What did Delta do to the new Uni to advance saftey. Really nothing. The only thing that has change since the 1940 Uni's is a motor cover and a riving knife that is pretty sad. And that really goes with any other manufacturer. It is really sad. I do not believe that every saw that is made should have a brake. It is too costly to add to every table saw. But it is just ludicris to accept that status quo. Because we should no better. It doesn't work that way if the technology is there we should use it.

Sliders are nice but they are not the answer not everyone has the space that a slider takes up.

And riving knives are nice but they do nothing to prevent the real injurys, amputation. Kick back is nothing to laugh about, but I would rather have a broken nose, or ribs, than be missing fingers. And guards are great but I am sure that less than 50% get used because the vast majority are pieces of junk. And the good ones still only provide some security.

My whole point is that here were are almost 10 years since the blade brake has been available. And still no other manufacturer has develped anything close. And to be honest havent really changed much other than to add blade shrouds and riving knives. The riving knife is a nice addition but be it still have a realativly cheap addition. So the trunion had to be redesigned some. I would really like to see the next 10 years even more saftey to be added. The auto manufacturers must do it, why not machinery producers.

[Van Huskey]

And riving knives are nice but they do nothing to prevent the real injurys, amputation. Kick back is nothing to laugh about, but I would rather have a broken nose, or ribs, than be missing fingers.


Kickback has likely caused FAR more deaths than blade to flesh contact... I consider that the REAL injury.

Other than your take on kickback I agree with most of what you say.

Traditionally, most table saws were sold to people who would remove any manner of safety equipment applied to them and never demanded more safety. This allowed the niche for Sawstop to exist. The lost sales for the major machine companies is just a drop in the bucket, when it becomes more you will see a shift toward more active safety measures, until then there is still a choice for those that have the budget.

[Dino Makropoulos]

No, people need to understand that there is inherent risks to anything, and that inattentiveness has consequences. It the operators job, not the saw's, to determine if he is qualified to perform the task at hand. It applies to lots of things, and not just the operation of a tablesaw. It is the employers job to hire people that are either qualified, or capable of learning. The tool is just that, a tool. Unless you tell me stories of an actual failure on the saw's part, (blade flying out, etc), it carries no responsibility. This same thinking will eventually make forks hard to find if it goes on long enough.

A shop I worked at a younger guy removed a finger on a moulder, but he didn't do it on one of the cutters. Morons are very creative in their stupidity.

Karl,
A young homeowners tries to fix his house and the first tool is a tablesaw.
After all, the woodworking tv gurus make it to look easy.
They even use tablesaws and other dangerours tools with
no guards or any safety devices.

The young homeowner (minus few fingers) is the victim of marketing
and greed. Very simple and the numbers can do the talking.

Sears stopped making the amputator ( RAS) only when their legal expenses,
liabilty, was higher than their (RAS) profits.

This is not about how YOU use the tablesaw.
This is about a national crisis, about trade stigma and about schools that they can't pay the liability insurance to teach the best trade.

How about spending 30 minutes in a woodworking safety class before you can buy a tablesaw? Courtecy of the tablesaw manufacturers.

yes, accidents are accidents and some people don't have what it takes to use a tablesaw. Allowing the sale of the most dangerous tool to anyone without training is more than an accident. To me, is a crime.

Thanks to forums like SMC and the work of few others, I hope to see the day where tablesaws are made with the same safety standards that apply to any other industry. Metalworking, machine shops, fabricating shops and many other "up to date" trades.

[Van Huskey]

Allowing the sale of the most dangerous tool to anyone without training is more than an accident. To me, is a crime.

.


You must really flip out over gun sales!!

[Karl Brogger]

When words like "crisis" and "deaths" are used in reference to woodworking equipment, (out side of logging), I'm done.

[Tom Veatch]

Hmmm, ICS?
Incident Command System, International Chili Society, Internet Connection Sharing, International Confernce on Supercomputing, International Commission on Stratigraphy,... OK, I give up. What the heck is ICS?

But, back to the topic. I'm not in the market for a cabinet, or other style, table saw, but if I were, a blade brake, a la Saw Stop or equivalent, would be a consideration, but not a deal breaker, either way.

[Paul Ryan]

Hmmm, ICS?
Incident Command System, International Chili Society, Internet Connection Sharing, International Confernce on Supercomputing, International Commission on Stratigraphy,... OK, I give up. What the heck is ICS?

But, back to the topic. I'm not in the market for a cabinet, or other style, table saw, but if I were, a blade brake, a la Saw Stop or equivalent, would be a consideration, but not a deal breaker, either way.


Sorry Tom,

The orginal sawstop table saw, was just that the sawstop table saw. A few years back sawstop introduced a contractor saw many now call that the CS. This past year sawstop introduced a new cabinet saw. Less beefy than their orginal saw. The new cabinet saw is now called the sawstop Professional Cabinet Saw, often refered to as PCS saw. The orginal saw still being manufactured that is marketed more for industrial use is now called the sawstop Industrial Cabinet Saw, other wise known as ICS.

[Paul Ryan]

Kickback has likely caused FAR more deaths than blade to flesh contact... I consider that the REAL injury.

Other than your take on kickback I agree with most of what you say.




Van,

I struggle with the senario where ordinary kick back could cause death. I can see and have heard of many cases when it has caused amputation. But I struggle with death. I guess I can see how it could happen, but I can not see how that would have happend far more often than flesh to blade contract? A piece of wood gets kicked back causing the operators hands to get drawn into the blade. That is a farly common occurance. But death, I have not heard of that?

Regardless, I am not saying that kickback is not to be taken lightly. But I believe it is far less likly to cause long lasting physical injury than flesh contact with the blade. However as I stated before, many times kickback causes flesh contact with the blade. So I believe if you could only have one saftey device the blade brake would be much more important. But were are very lucky that sawstop uses both devices. And other manufacturers, after being pressured from the UL have included riving knives on their new saws. If it weren't for the UL new saws wouldn't even have riving knives. And we would be using bascially the same design that has been around for, in the neighborhood of 80 years.

[Jeff Bratt]

Kickback has likely caused FAR more deaths than blade to flesh contact... I consider that the REAL injury.

Of the 50,000 to 60,000 injuries caused by table saws each year in the US, only about 1 or 2 result in death. Severe tablesaw injuries are generally amputations. The division between kickback and non-kick back injuries is roughly 50-50.

Part of the blame for the lack of good, effective safety features can be laid at the doorstep of woodworkers. The tool companies are selling into a market where people will cross the street to pay $29.95 less. And compared to a competitor that sells for $50 less, your saw will be tossed out of the big box stores. As long as consumers demand only the lowest prices, that's what we'll get...

[Van Huskey]

Van,

I struggle with the senario where ordinary kick back could cause death.


You yourself referenced broken ribs, so you shouldn't struggle with the potential death or SERIOUS internal injury if you know much about anatomy. Many of your internal organs are at risk with broken and displaced ribs.

I was not comparing the number of long term injuries just pointing out the WORST injuries are actually a result of kickback which you seemed to gloss over. I would suggest riving knives will prevent more death but blade brakes would prevent more long term impairments. As a result of this I would take a riving knife given the choice of one or the other as I can live with no fingers one one hand (my father did his whole life from 3 years old on and was a metal worker and woodworker) but I can't live dead. This is a moot point though since there is no situation where you could have a blade brake and could not have a RK.

[Van Huskey]

Of the 50,000 to 60,000 injuries caused by table saws each year in the US, only about 1 or 2 result in death. Severe tablesaw injuries are generally amputations. The division between kickback and non-kick back injuries is roughly 50-50.

Part of the blame for the lack of good, effective safety features can be laid at the doorstep of woodworkers. The tool companies are selling into a market where people will cross the street to pay $29.95 less. And compared to a competitor that sells for $50 less, your saw will be tossed out of the big box stores. As long as consumers demand only the lowest prices, that's what we'll get...


Do you have a reference for the first paragraph, it is a lttle different stats wise than some posted recently.


"effective safety features can be laid at the doorstep of woodworkers."

A good example is splitters, pawls and blade guards, my guess is only about 10% of them are used at all.