31,400 Table Saw Accidents a Year

[Danny Burns]

I ran into this and wanted to point it out to everyone here at SMC.

I hope that this Forum will help to reduce that number!

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/24638/new-study-discusses-tablesaw-injuries

[Maurice Ungaro]

Certainly 31,400 is a big number, but I am always interested in percentages. I mean, just how many tablesaws are out there? Think about it, you have to count up not only all of the Unis, PMs, SSs, Grizs, etc, but also the benchtop Deltas, Skils, etc., etc. Ladies and gentlemen, that is a huge number. Putting it into perspective, if the total number of tablesaws out there is 250,000, then there is a 12.6% accident rate (pretty high). If there are 1,000,000 tablesaws, then that rate drops to 3%. Two and a half million saws? That number is now 1.2%.

I'm not saying anything regarding safety, I'm just asking about the whole picture.

[Ken Shoemaker]

Unless of course, YOU are the one who got bit... Then YOU are at 100%...:D

[Maurice Ungaro]

Unless of course, YOU are the one who got bit... Then YOU are at 100%...:D

How right you are! Aren't we all trying to get through life without becoming a statistic until that last possible moment (a ripe old age at that!).

[Mr. Jeff Smith]

More interesting then just knowing the population size, I want to know the relative percentages of accidents on cabinet saw vs contractor saw etc. Further information on the level of injury would be useful as well. The article does share this:

As you might imagine, roughly 93 percent of those injuries were to the users’ finger, thumb or another part of their hand. 66 percent of those injured had lacerations while 10 percent had amputations. Other types of injuries include soft-tissue injuries to the head, face and neck, presumably from flying lumber or debris caused by kickback (http://www.finewoodworking.com/ToolGuide/ToolGuideArticle.aspx?id=31896).

[glenn bradley]

And around 80,000 motorcycle accidents per year. I wish car drivers and motorcycle riders were half as aware of safety as woodworkers are. Let's all work toward reducing accidents in all potentially dangerous activities of our lives.

Interesting: "As you might imagine, roughly 93 percent of those injuries were to the users’ finger, thumb or another part of their hand." They don't mention the percentage of those that were due to the saw rearing up and attacking the operator . . . oh, that's right; that doesn't happen.

[Joe Leigh]

How many of the saws were even running at the time of the "accident"? Injuries while changing blades etc...

[scott spencer]

Certainly 31,400 is a big number, but I am always interested in percentages. I mean, just how many tablesaws are out there? Think about it, you have to count up not only all of the Unis, PMs, SSs, Grizs, etc, but also the benchtop Deltas, Skils, etc., etc. Ladies and gentlemen, that is a huge number. Putting it into perspective, if the total number of tablesaws out there is 250,000, then there is a 12.6% accident rate (pretty high). If there are 1,000,000 tablesaws, then that rate drops to 3%. Two and a half million saws? That number is now 1.2%.

I'm saying anything regarding safety, I'm just asking about the whole picture.

Some saws sit for years at time, while others see non-stop activity....obviously a tough number to estimate, but I'd be very interested in the usage figure.

[Mike Henderson]

Certainly 31,400 is a big number, but I am always interested in percentages. I mean, just how many tablesaws are out there? Think about it, you have to count up not only all of the Unis, PMs, SSs, Grizs, etc, but also the benchtop Deltas, Skils, etc., etc. Ladies and gentlemen, that is a huge number. Putting it into perspective, if the total number of tablesaws out there is 250,000, then there is a 12.6% accident rate (pretty high). If there are 1,000,000 tablesaws, then that rate drops to 3%. Two and a half million saws? That number is now 1.2%.

I'm saying anything regarding safety, I'm just asking about the whole picture.
Let's use your accident rate of 3% per year. So each year, you have a 97% of not getting injured. But now, we have to look at your chances over time.

What is your chance of getting injured over two years? To calculate it, we multiply your chance of not getting injured each year - 0.97 * 0.97 = 0.94 or about 6% chance of getting injured sometime in two years.

Doing the math, you have about a 50% chance of getting injured over about 22 to 23 years. And that's injured enough to wind up at the emergency room.

This doesn't mean you can go 23 years without injury. It means that 50% of woodworkers will wind up in the emergency room within 23 years and 50% will not wind up in the emergency room in that time. (That's actually not exactly correct because some visits could be repeats, people who were injured multiple times, but it's close.)

You could be the one who winds up in the emergency room in the first year, or you could be one who never winds up in the emergency room.

Do you want to play those odds with your fingers?

Mike

[If a 3% accident rate per year seems too high to you, do your own calculations. Just keep in mind that woodworkers are a relatively small part of the population of the United States. Using your accident rate of 1.2% per year, you have about a 25% chance of injury over 22 to 23 years

What probability of injury are you willing to tolerate over your woodworking career?]

[Dan Friedrichs]

What probability of injury are you willing to tolerate over your woodworking career?

This is excellent logic. If I'm lucky (and don't get bored with it), I suspect I'll be using a table saw for 60+ more years. Even 0.1% per year is far too high, in that case.

[phil harold]

I am not a big fan of Norm, but I do like the one thing he says every show:


"Before we use any power tools, let's take a moment to talk about shop safety. Be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your power tools properly will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. And remember this: there is no more important safety rule than to wear these — safety glasses."

[Greg Peterson]

Mike - as usual, very pristine logic. Depressing though.

Glenn - " I wish car drivers and motorcycle riders were half as aware of safety as woodworkers are."

There is an immediacy of a spinning blade that tends to get ones attention and requires us to have a heightened sense of situational awareness. We know beyond doubt that that blade is unforgiving. Ripping a board requires intense concentration for a relatively brief period of time, or at least it should.

We have our cocoon on wheels and zip along willingly oblivious to the lethal potential that often times is beyond our ability to control. Driving often times becomes a mundane task even though it is more complex than ripping a board.

Regardless, I agree with your point.

[Joe Leigh]

Let's use your accident rate is 3% per year. So each year, you have a 97% of not getting injured. But now, we have to look at your chances over time.

What is your chance of getting injured over two years? To calculate it, we multiply your chance of not getting injured each year - 0.97 * 0.97 = 0.94 or about 6% chance of getting injured sometime in two years.

Doing the math, you have about a 50% chance of getting injured over about 22 to 23 years. And that's injured enough to wind up at the emergency room.

This doesn't mean you can go 23 years without injury. It means that 50% of woodworkers will wind up in the emergency room within 23 years and 50% will not wind up in the emergency room in that time. (That's actually not exactly correct because some visits could be repeats, people who were injured multiple times, but it's close.)

You could be the one who winds up in the emergency room in the first year, or you could be one who never winds up in the emergency room.

Do you want to play those odds with your fingers?

Mike

[If a 3% accident rate per year seems too high to you, do your own calculations. Just keep in mind that woodworkers are a relatively small part of the population of the United States. Using your accident rate of 1.2% per year, you have about a 25% chance of injury over 22 to 23 years

What probability of injury are you willing to tolerate over your woodworking career?]

This math is based on false assumptions. Who says that someone new gets injured each time? It's also convoluted logic to assume that the accident rate is the same each year.
Statistics don't work that way. Just because 50% of the population gets a cold each year doesn't mean I'm guaranteed to get a cold in the next 2 years. Also, someone else's accident rate in no way increases or decreases the probability of ME having an accident.

[Zach England]

What percentage of those injured are "woodworkers" and what percentage are folks who borrowed someone's table saw, have never used one before, and don't have any clue what they are doing?

[Mike Henderson]

This math is based on false assumptions. Who says that someone new gets injured each time? It's also convoluted logic to assume that the accident rate is the same each year.
Statistics don't work that way. Just because 50% of the population gets a cold each year doesn't mean I'm guaranteed to get a cold in the next 2 years. Also, someone else's accident rate in no way increases or decreases the probability of ME having an accident.
I did point out that some accidents could be repeats. However, if someone is having a lot of accidents, they'd probably stop doing woodworking. The study did point out that the accident rate is essentially the same each year, even though safety devices have been added to the equipment. This indicates that people are not using the safety devices, or they're not effective.

If 50% of the population gets a cold each year, your chance of getting a cold over two years is 75%, not 100%. The calculation is 0.5^2 for the probability of not getting a cold.

You're correct that if someone else has an accident, it has absolutely no effect on your probability of having an accident. This is the same as flipping coins. If you get three head in a row, the probability of heads on the next flip is still 50%.

Mike

[Note: I have read the actual study, and not just the summary in FWW.]

[Let me add a short discussion about statistics. Statistics generally say nothing about the individual - they only make statements about a group, and are more accurate the larger the group. For example, insurance companies make a lot of money selling life insurance because the can accurately predict (with statistics) how many people will die each year by age. But that says nothing about your (individual) chance of dying each year. We simply cannot predict when you will die. You might feel really healthy but then are diagnosed with a fatal disease tomorrow. Same thing with table saw accidents. You simply cannot predict whether you're going to have an accident or when. But as a group, the study shows that the rate of accidents is pretty constant over time. No one expects to have an accident - they probably wouldn't do something they expected would land them in the ER - but people still wind up in the ER on a pretty consistent rate.]

[Brandon Weiss]

Excellent discussion. Threads such as these are EXTREMELY important. My desire is for 0% injuries over my woodworking career. My tolerance is 0.0%. At least, that's my goal. As long as I stay vigilant and safe, I believe I can make my goal happen. Threads like these are ever so important for reinforcing that in all of us. I am always careful of the dangers of Table Saws, but it always helps to have a reminder. I saw a clip once, linked by one of these threads, to a demonstration of kickback. I had never seen what kickback actually could be until that video. It was an excellent reinforcement/lesson to my goal of 0 injuries. Almost every time I get ready to use the TS that video plays over in my head. I don't believe I need to see a clip of hand to blade contact though. I'm pretty sure I can imagine those results.

Now that I re-read my post, I guess I have nothing really to add except for gloating that I like the thread!!:D

[Bob Borzelleri]

I'm still waiting for the posts that talk about how blade guards get in the way just like motorcycle helmets. Oh wait, actually, I'm not waiting, here comes one now.:eek:

[John Thompson]

I would like to know out of 31,400 injuries.. how many were operator induced opposed to how many were actually the saw's fault. I don't have any numbers personally but.. I would guess around 31,000 were due to the operator doing something he shouldn't and the vast % of those the operator probably knew better before he did it. And for those that didn't know better.. they should have before they operated the saw I would think.

To quote Forrest Gump... stupid is as stupid does.... :)

[Bob Borzelleri]

I would like to know out of 31,400 injuries.. how many were operator induced opposed to how many were actually the saw's fault. I don't have any numbers personally but.. I would guess around 31,000 were due to the operator doing something he shouldn't and the vast % of those the operator probably knew better before he did it. And for those that didn't know better.. they should have before they operated the saw I would think.

To quote Forrest Gump... stupid is as stupid does.... :)

I would think that, excepting for actual machine failure as in a blade exploding or the like, all were some kind of operator error. I can't recall the last time I ran across a saw that had malevolent tendencies built in (although I'm sure there have been some that could be attributed to designer error).

[Mark Grotenhuis]

I would like to know out of 31,400 injuries.. how many were operator induced opposed to how many were actually the saw's fault. I don't have any numbers personally but.. I would guess around 31,000 were due to the operator doing something he shouldn't and the vast % of those the operator probably knew better before he did it. And for those that didn't know better.. they should have before they operated the saw I would think.

To quote Forrest Gump... stupid is as stupid does.... :)

I would guess the number due to the saws fault would be higher than that. I don't know for sure ... just guessing. I lost the tip of a finger to a powermatic miter gauge that broke while I was using it. I know two other guys who have lost digits to table saws; one due to a ridgid fence that didn't stay tight, and another to a craftsman table saw whose fence also came loose. So in my tiny, tiny, sample of 3 people all of us lost a finger due to a malfunction. I'm in no way saying that 100% of accidents are caused by a malfunction ... but my guess would be more around 25%. In my opinion the cheaper the saw the more likely it will malfunction ... and there are probably thousands of really cheap saws out there. My powermatic wasn't cheap or low quality ... but the included miter gauge was.

[Carl Beckett]

Yep.

Kickback while trying a short test piece to adjust for a dado cut. I didnt take the time to cut a zero clearance insert, and the piece dived into the front of the dado blade and then kicked back and up into the notch between my thumb and palm. (this was about 10 years ago an all works fine now, with a slight audible 'click' when bending my thumb)

The emergency room surgeon (yep, an emergency room visit to get a couple pins put in where the thumb socket bone broke, and sew up the tissue of course)... anyway, this surgeon says he was once a woodworker him self. But over the years of sewing people up has since decided he will not have a table saw in his house. Toooo many accidents. Said if I had his job I would feel the same.

So put me in the 50% that came out on the wrong side of the statistics. I still do woodworking and enjoy it very much. I am more careful now, remind myself to take the time and inconvenience of safety seriously as top priority, and am just more generally aware.

It is no fun, and not even possible to live a zero risk life.

Fingers crossed/knock on wood... all that jazz.

[Sean Nagle]

When I got into this hobby almost 20 years ago, newbies and old timers used to hang out on usenet's rec.woodworking. I remember a lot of the discussions about guards and such. The old timers used to dismiss the effectiveness of the then not so advanced blade guards. What they would often cite are knowing how to properly use the tool, not to fear the tool, but to have respect for the tool. They also used to advise us newcomers to listen to that little voice in the back of your head. That isn't talked about much anymore. But after 20 years of working with dangerous machines, they were right. There are times, when it just doesn't feel right. Those are the times to stop right there, find a different tool for the task, build a jig or go "neander".

Maybe I'm starting to think like those old timers, but I think this newer generation of woodworkers are filled with too much fear of the tool than the required amount of respect.

[phil harold]

I think we should blame all these injuries on Home Improvement shows...

Years ago homeowners were exposed only to danger from lawnmowers and jig saws, DIY is so popular now power equipment has opened up new world of hazards for them. Some tools that a 30 or 40 years ago would be unknown outside a professional setting, table saws and nail guns, especially are now cheap enough that any homeowner can afford them to have in their basements to maime themselves...

[Chris Rosenberger]

Everyone assumes that all of these injuries are blade related.
Last night I was moving my table saw, I smashed my finger between the saw & another machine. Today the finger is swollen & black & blue. If I go to the Doctor, the injury will be reported as a table saw related finger injury. The same would go for someone that is injured unloading a table saw from a vehicle.

My favorite statistic is the following.
100 percent of the people alive today will die at some point in their lifetime.

[Tom Godley]

The problem I have with all of these Sawstop discussions is that a lot of figures are thrown around as if they are an accurate picture of the risk.

I do not wish to take anything away from the Sawstop -- it has a fantastic device -- and I wish that the world worked in a way that we could include the device with every new table saw sold.

But there is no way today to determine the relative safety of the Sawstop vs say ... the new Unisaw. In a previous post on this subject a study was referenced where an attempt was made to more accurately track the actual tool involved -- but it was over a very short period in one area and the actual process was not referenced. We have no way of knowing how many of these injuries involved a contractor hanging a $100.00 saw between two horses sitting on a 2x10 and a properly set up saw in a shop.

I am in the risk business and I deal with catastrophic injuries -- this does not make me an expert on this subject -- but I read a lot of these studies. Tools are dangerous -- table saws are dangerous -- hand held circular saws are dangerous.

When you buy a car do you get one with all the safety devices available and reject all others? How about the weight load and construction of the ladder you use?? If you work as a house framer .... Are you more likely to get hurt by cutting, nailing or falling??

[Daniel Berlin]

When I got into this hobby almost 20 years ago, newbies and old timers used to hang out on usenet's rec.woodworking. I remember a lot of the discussions about guards and such. The old timers used to dismiss the effectiveness of the then not so advanced blade guards. What they would often cite are knowing how to properly use the tool, not to fear the tool, but to have respect for the tool. They also used to advise us newcomers to listen to that little voice in the back of your head. That isn't talked about much anymore. But after 20 years of working with dangerous machines, they were right. There are times, when it just doesn't feel right. Those are the times to stop right there, find a different tool for the task, build a jig or go "neander".

I guess i'm just mildly retarded, because my worst woodworking injuries (thankfully nothing more than really deep cuts, etc) are from neander tools.
Never underestimate the danger of a plane blade/chisel polished to 1/2 micron ;)

[phil harold]

The problem I have with all of these Sawstop discussions is that a lot of figures are thrown around as if they are an accurate picture of the risk.

I do not wish to take anything away from the Sawstop -- it has a fantastic device -- and I wish that the world worked in a way that we could include the device with every new table saw sold.

But there is no way today to determine the relative safety of the Sawstop vs say ... the new Unisaw. In a previous post on this subject a study was referenced where an attempt was made to more accurately track the actual tool involved -- but it was over a very short period in one area and the actual process was not referenced. We have no way of knowing how many of these injuries involved a contractor hanging a $100.00 saw between two horses sitting on a 2x10 and a properly set up saw in a shop.

I am in the risk business and I deal with catastrophic injuries -- this does not make me an expert on this subject -- but I read a lot of these studies. Tools are dangerous -- table saws are dangerous -- hand held circular saws are dangerous.

When you buy a car do you get one with all the safety devices available and reject all others? How about the weight load and construction of the ladder you use?? If you work as a house framer .... Are you more likely to get hurt by cutting, nailing or falling??

0% of the injuries were at work



Despite improved guards and the addition of riving knives, tablesaw injuries are still alarmingly common. A new report shows that an average of 31,400 people are treated in U.S. emergency rooms every year for tablesaw injuries. This figure doesn't include accidents on the job.

[Alan Schwabacher]

The problem I have with all of these Sawstop discussions ...

You do realize that this was the first mention of Sawstop in the thread?

[Eddie Darby]

The problem I have with all of these Sawstop discussions is that a lot of figures are thrown around as if they are an accurate picture of the risk.

I do not wish to take anything away from the Sawstop -- it has a fantastic device -- and I wish that the world worked in a way that we could include the device with every new table saw sold.

But there is no way today to determine the relative safety of the Sawstop vs say ... the new Unisaw. In a previous post on this subject a study was referenced where an attempt was made to more accurately track the actual tool involved -- but it was over a very short period in one area and the actual process was not referenced. We have no way of knowing how many of these injuries involved a contractor hanging a $100.00 saw between two horses sitting on a 2x10 and a properly set up saw in a shop.

I am in the risk business and I deal with catastrophic injuries -- this does not make me an expert on this subject -- but I read a lot of these studies. Tools are dangerous -- table saws are dangerous -- hand held circular saws are dangerous.

When you buy a car do you get one with all the safety devices available and reject all others? How about the weight load and construction of the ladder you use?? If you work as a house framer .... Are you more likely to get hurt by cutting, nailing or falling??

I try to forget the numbers and instead I focus on the fact that Table Saws demand a lot of respect!

So I build as many lines of defense in as possible, and so the SawStop would just be the front-line if you can afford it. I use jigs for every cut, and I have handles on those jigs, well away from the blade for both hands, and my hands do not leave those handles until the blade is fully stopped. Then I have a very thin stick that clears away any off cuts from the blade area.

Yes it's slow going, but slow and steady wins the race! Of course this is a race you can't afford to lose.

[Sean Nagle]

So I build as many lines of defense in as possible, and so the SawStop would just be the front-line if you can afford it. I use jigs for every cut, and I have handles on those jigs, well away from the blade for both hands, and my hands do not leave those handles until the blade is fully stopped. Then I have a very thin stick that clears away any off cuts from the blade area.

That's the approach all of us should take with all tools. However, I would say that a SawStop is actually the last line of defense, not the first line.

An airbag on a car is similar to a SawStop. You still want a well maintained car that you know how to operate and know its limitations and you don't want to operate it when your ability is impaired and you want to wear your seat belt and drive defensively. You don't neglect any of these other precautions just because you have an air bag.

[Eddie Darby]

That's the approach all of us should take with all tools. However, I would say that a SawStop is actually the last line of defense, not the first line.

Yes first to kick in when all else fails, and the last line of defense for when all measures taken to avoid using the brake fail.

Either way it's Belt n' Braces!!!

Does anyone know what the saved digits/fingers count is on the SawStop since it's inauguration date?

[Van Huskey]

Let's use your accident rate of 3% per year. So each year, you have a 97% of not getting injured. But now, we have to look at your chances over time.

What is your chance of getting injured over two years? To calculate it, we multiply your chance of not getting injured each year - 0.97 * 0.97 = 0.94 or about 6% chance of getting injured sometime in two years.

Doing the math, you have about a 50% chance of getting injured over about 22 to 23 years. And that's injured enough to wind up at the emergency room.

This doesn't mean you can go 23 years without injury. It means that 50% of woodworkers will wind up in the emergency room within 23 years and 50% will not wind up in the emergency room in that time. (That's actually not exactly correct because some visits could be repeats, people who were injured multiple times, but it's close.)

You could be the one who winds up in the emergency room in the first year, or you could be one who never winds up in the emergency room.

Do you want to play those odds with your fingers?

Mike

[If a 3% accident rate per year seems too high to you, do your own calculations. Just keep in mind that woodworkers are a relatively small part of the population of the United States. Using your accident rate of 1.2% per year, you have about a 25% chance of injury over 22 to 23 years

What probability of injury are you willing to tolerate over your woodworking career?]


But in the end the only choice you have is to just not use a TS. Is that something you want to tolerate over your woodworking career? Safety is important because danger is always there. You have to approach any endevour aware of the risks and rewards and balance those. Safety in the woodshop is something everyone here probably thinks about actively than automobile safety but you are MUCH more likely to die in an automobile. Cars are a risk we pretty much have to take but use of a TS is a choice, in the end driving/riding in a car is dangerous and I know very few people that even bother to buy the safest car they can afford, their purchase is based on looks, comfort, country of origin et al.


For me woodworking is the safest major hobby that I endulge in. In fact one major accomplishment I have in one of my hobbys has a 1 in 5 DEATH rate among those that accomplish it just during the actual act not the counting the training that leads up to it. Then again Ernest Hewingway said there are only three real sports and my hobby is one of them.

Articles like this are excellent reminders of how vigilent we need to be but trying to extrapolate how likely one indivdual is to have or not have an accident can't accurately been done with this info. One just has to develop a set of safety skills and procedures and be mindful of them everytime they enter the shop. We are never going to be perfect but we shouldn't live in fear either, respect yes, fear no.

[Michael O'Sullivan]

But in the end the only choice you have is to just not use a TS. Is that something you want to tolerate over your woodworking career? Safety is important because danger is always there. You have to approach any endevour aware of the risks and rewards and balance those. Safety in the woodshop is something everyone here probably thinks about actively than automobile safety but you are MUCH more likely to die in an automobile. Cars are a risk we pretty much have to take but use of a TS is a choice, in the end driving/riding in a car is dangerous and I know very few people that even bother to buy the safest car they can afford, their purchase is based on looks, comfort, country of origin et al.


For me woodworking is the safest major hobby that I endulge in. In fact one major accomplishment I have in one of my hobbys has a 1 in 5 DEATH rate among those that accomplish it just during the actual act not the counting the training that leads up to it. Then again Ernest Hewingway said there are only three real sports and my hobby is one of them.

Articles like this are excellent reminders of how vigilent we need to be but trying to extrapolate how likely one indivdual is to have or not have an accident can't accurately been done with this info. One just has to develop a set of safety skills and procedures and be mindful of them everytime they enter the shop. We are never going to be perfect but we shouldn't live in fear either, respect yes, fear no.

Bullfighting? Wear a cup. DAMHIKT!

[Mike Henderson]

But in the end the only choice you have is to just not use a TS. Is that something you want to tolerate over your woodworking career? Safety is important because danger is always there. You have to approach any endevour aware of the risks and rewards and balance those. Safety in the woodshop is something everyone here probably thinks about actively than automobile safety but you are MUCH more likely to die in an automobile. Cars are a risk we pretty much have to take but use of a TS is a choice, in the end driving/riding in a car is dangerous and I know very few people that even bother to buy the safest car they can afford, their purchase is based on looks, comfort, country of origin et al.


For me woodworking is the safest major hobby that I endulge in. In fact one major accomplishment I have in one of my hobbys has a 1 in 5 DEATH rate among those that accomplish it just during the actual act not the counting the training that leads up to it. Then again Ernest Hewingway said there are only three real sports and my hobby is one of them.

Articles like this are excellent reminders of how vigilent we need to be but trying to extrapolate how likely one indivdual is to have or not have an accident can't accurately been done with this info. One just has to develop a set of safety skills and procedures and be mindful of them everytime they enter the shop. We are never going to be perfect but we shouldn't live in fear either, respect yes, fear no.
I agree with your major points. My goal is to understand the risks and then do what I can to reduce the risks to a point that is acceptable to me.

Your major point that we live with risks everyday is very true.

Mike

[Ernest Hemingway's three real sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering]

[Ross Canant]

Every time you flip a coin, your odds of a heads are 50%. If you flip it 5000 times and get heads every time, it's still 50% the next time you flip. If your odds in a given year are 3% (or whatever), the next year your odds are 3%.

Just because 3% of the population gets hit in a given year says nothing about your individual odds. Someone that works 12 hour days 7 days a week at a saw will have higher odds do to tiredness, repetitive sedation, lots of other reasons. Someone that has never used a saw will have higher odds. Someone that takes unnecessary chances will have higher odds, etc.

[Mike Henderson]

Every time you flip a coin, your odds of a heads are 50%. If you flip it 5000 times and get heads every time, it's still 50% the next time you flip. If your odds in a given year are 3% (or whatever), the next year your odds are 3%.
You're absolutely correct. However, the question being asked was different from what you're saying.

Let's assume that 3% of the woodworkers have a table saw accident each year, and the question of who has the accident is totally random, like the flip of a coin. If you go through a year and don't have an accident, your chance of having an accident this coming year is still 3%.

But let's ask the question a different way. Let's go back to our original year and ask, "What is the probability of you having one accident in the next two years?" That is, the probability that you will have an accident either in year one or in year two. To do that, we take the probability of not having an accident in each year and multiply them together .97*.97 = .94 Since this is the probability of not having an accident, the probability of an accident is about 6%.

Suppose we ask, "What is the probability that you will have at least one accident in the next 20 years?" We can multiply .97 time itself 20 times, or simply raise .97 to the 20th power, which gives the answer (about) .54

Since that the probability of not having an accident, the probability of having an accident is 1-.54 or about .46 So if you have a 3% chance of an accident each year, in 20 years the probability is about 46% that you will have one accident in those years.

Mike

[Or using coin flips, let's ask the question, "What is the probability of getting three heads in the next three flips?" Since the probability of a head is .5, the probability of three in a row is .5 raised to the third power, or .125 You can verify this is true by flipping a coin three times, and doing it over and over. You'll find that about 12.5% of your trials result in three heads.]

[Dino Makropoulos]

I agree with your major points. My goal is to understand the risks and then do what I can to reduce the risks to a point that is acceptable to me.
Your major point that we live with risks everyday is very true.

Mike

[Ernest Hemingway's three real sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering]

Mike,
Woodworking is in the stone ages for the DIY and small operations.
If you visit an industrial plan you will see that woodworking is very much done like a machine shop...only faster.

CNC Beam saws, CNC routers,
Gand and rip saws with overhead conveyors and 3 lines of protection...


The best thing for the small guy is to copy the industrial setups using...
The Dead Wood Concept.

All industrial high production machines are designed one way or another to comply with the DWC.

Pushing an unstable piece of wood against spinning blades without a way to
counter the forces generated by the spinning blades and knifes...
is a ticket to the emergency room.

Overpowering the forces of the spinning blade with a simple and effective
device is the answer to safety.
Some may say that safety is slow.
To me, safety is the first step to quality, accuracy and speed.

[Mike Henderson]

If you've read my other recent posting, Dino, you know that I just bought a SawStop Professional table saw.

Mike

[Jeff Bratt]

I'm gonna inject a dose of numbers that are closer to reality. Those 31,400 injuries (in the US) are for NON-work related injuries. The total number of serious - hospital treated - table saw injuries per year is more than 50,000. The number of table saws (in the US) is even harder to determine - a study in the early 2000s estimated 6,000,000 to 10,000,000. (But how often are they used? Didn't even try to answer that...) Anyway, that puts the annual serious injury rate for table saws in the .5% to .9% range.


Every time you flip a coin, your odds of a heads are 50%. If you flip it 5000 times and get heads every time, it's still 50% the next time you flip.

If you have a "coin" that flips 5000 heads in a row, then the assumption that the coin is fair - that the chance of heads vs tails is even - is seriously flawed. I'd bet quite a lot that the next flip would be heads... Now, that reasoning doesn't hold for 3 heads in a row, or even 10 in a row, but 5000 is a whole 'nother story.

[Chip Lindley]

No license or training needed to operate a tablesaw! Any person, regardless of age, can buy a new or used one. Tablesaw owners run the gamut of society: Professionals who likely had mentors to teach them. Serious hobbiests who scrutinize every nuiance of them. Homeowners who only need to accomplish a DIY job. Others who may, or may not live in the real world of consequences for a given action. They may be the elderly senile, or the young immature having a video game mindset, which allows one to *push reset* or *log off* with no consequence at all.

Distractions of every sort must certainly contribute to TS accidents. And, one must wonder how many TS accidents occur while under the influence of alcohol, recreational drugs, or even prescription meds. The All-American scenario of a *brewsky* (or 2 or 3 or 4) in the shop while doing *hobby stuff* is normal for many. 2 or 3 beers consumed, and most states deem an individual too impaired to drive a vehicle; liable to arrest. A tablesaw (or other machine) can also plainly be a lethal weapon to an operator *under the influence*.

I am not a Poker player, nor do I play the Lottery. There are *the odds* and then there is Providence! *Beating the odds* always defies statistics or logic. So far, for over 30 years, I have been blessed to avoid any serious TS accident. If one should believe No One is watching over him, then it's all up to that individual, what he does, or doesn't do! Caveat emptor! Let the buyer beware!

[Dino Makropoulos]

If you've read my other recent posting, Dino, you know that I just bought a SawStop Professional table saw.

Mike

Mike,
The sawstop solves only one major problem.
great invention. The greatest in tablesaws and I hope to see more applications in other tools.

Even the sawstop needs to fix the problem and comply with the DWC one day. The saw doesn't know when the wood is going to become a bullet.

If you try to understand the problem look no further.
Here are some stats and facts.
over 15.000? users for 5-6 years without any reported minor accident.
The answer? The DWC again.
The tablesaw is just one of many that can change someones life
in a split sec, ....32.000? times a year. More than any war?
The users have to be educated about the right way to use spinning tools.

I agree with another poster about DIY. Using a tablesaw without any prior teachings...equals to DYI.
But if we continue to take the blame and point the fingers to the innocent victims while some tv stars are allowed to teach unsafe ways in public TV shows... bad for our trade.
Why do you think most and soon all schools are removing woodworking?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The tablesaw mentality? Look at me. I can count to 10.
I'm smarter.... 32.000 every year.
Nothing is wrong with MY tool.

something is wrong here.
We can send people to the moon and bring them back without a scratch.
Yet, a new DIY and even many pro's are becoming the reason for some to feel smarter... year after year.
Have you seen a tablesaw victim in the emergency room?
I did once in a bed next to me and I wished that I don't die next to him.
IT WAS HORRIBLE.

Some may say that my post is very "strong" and that
I don't have the right communication skills.

they're right.

[Steven Green]

Ok here is a different slant on this. My bride is an ER nurse with forty years of experience. She and I were talking about this subject two nights ago in response to another post on the same subject.
She pointed out that the majority of tablesaw injuries she's seen in large hospital ER's tend to come in from 7pm and later. Alcohol plays a large part in a lot of them and she also suggested that the folks that were injured might well have been overtired from working a "day" job as well. Another thing she came up with was poor lighting in the shop. One of the doctors she works with pointed out that a common thread that he's seen is a cramped workspace, as described by his patients.
Just throwing this out there for consideration, although these aren't statistics from a study I'd put my wifes' experience out in front of most studies any day.

[Mr. Jeff Smith]

They may be the elderly senile, or the young immature having a video game mindset, which allows one to *push reset* or *log off* with no consequence at all.


[off-topic]
I doubt video games have anything to do with the mindset of the young being such that they fear no consequences. Most younger people have difficultly contemplating mortality due to lack of experience; this has been true long before the age of video games.

[Van Huskey]

Mike has it right mountaineering, auto racing and bullfighting. I have been a mountaineer for 22 years. In that time I have summited K2, Denali (in the winter), Gasherbrum IV, The Great Trango Tower, Baintha Brakk, and Everest (the easiest of all of these). Everyone of these claim at least 10% of those that reach the summit, K2 hovers around 33%.

I say this because many of us have hobbys more dangerous than WWing. Motorcycle riding, bicycling, sky diving, skiing, scuba diving, horse riding, rock and mountain climbing etc etc claim more lives each year per capita than wood working. All these hobbies are calculated risks as is WWing. The key is how you manage those risks and prepare for the possibilities of injury. I would say far to many of us don't take first aid nearly as importantly as we should. How many of us have a full fledged REAL first aid kit capable of handling an amputation in easy reach in our shop. I see plenty of shop tours and hardly ever see any serious frst aid clearly available. My shop is detached from my house and I ran doorbell wire when I ran a phone line out there and have a big red button on the wall that I can hit and ring a bell in the house, overkill maybe but who knows (this from a guy who did NOT choose a SS).

In the end you should never fear ANYTHING in your woodshop, if you do, sell it. Fear is as dangerous as over confidence. Respect the tools and as a result learn how to use them safely. The vast majority of life long woodworkers go to their graves with all their digits intact some by luck most by good habits.

In the end I always read these studies and see them as basically useless because the people taking the info are rarely people who understand what questions to ask and frankly don't really care. I would like to see real stats compiled by someone who understands what it all means, but an ER could care less if your finger got cut off by a Delta Uni tuned within an inch of its life, with a riving knife, Beis over arm guard in a shop cleaner and more well lit than their OR or by a benchtop setup on the ground beside a construction site crosscutting 2x12s by a 19yo.

[Stephen Edwards]

In over 40 years of WW I've experienced one accident on a WW machine's spinning blade/bit. Mine was on a router table. The cause was nothing less than stupidity on my part. It wasn't the machine's fault in any way. I was doing a task that I simply should not have been doing without the proper hold downs and taking too deep a cut in one pass. It was 100% avoidable with the safety devices I had on hand. Fortunately, I didn't lose an digits nor suffer any long term damage. I chose to ignore my instincts and paid the price.

Sometimes, I'll find myself beginning to not pay attention as I should when working on my TS. When I experience that, I turn the machine off, chastise myself, think about it and then back to my work with full concentration.

I also agree with Chip that alcohol probably plays a major role in many shop accidents, as does being tired and mentally stressed.

For me, don't have a beer (I rarely drink anyway and certainly not in the shop) and quit for the day when my instincts tell me to do so. Add to that, develop good work habits and good instincts. It's about respect, not fear.

[Neil Brooks]

I like the fact that some people "improved" the statistic by viewing the injury *rate*.

I'd go one step further, though.

Like transportation, the stats are generally viewed in "passenger miles."

In other words, the TS injury rate could be more granular, and -- IMHO -- more useful, if we knew the rate as a function of operator/operation hours.

[Brandon Weiss]

I've spent many a day working in the shop with a beer in my hand. Those are days I conserve the most energy. No power tools are EVER turned on as soon as I crack a beer. Once I crack a beer it's time to clean the shop or close the doors. This mindset came from a day of roofing with a friend. Had a beer at lunch, got back on the roof and promptly put a shingle staple through my middle finger. Staple entered right next to the nail, stuck out the other side. I've decided to apply that lesson learned to woodworking tools.

[Mike Cruz]

As someone else stated, my immediate thought was 10 times a year could be the same person... So, 31,000 incidents could easily be 20,000 people. Hard for you to believe? Think of this:

Imagine, for a moment, how stupid the AVERAGE person is. Wait for it, wait for it... Now, realize that HALF the population is STUPIDER (like that word?) than them! How is THAT for depressing... :eek:

[Mike Henderson]

As someone else stated, my immediate thought was 10 times a year could be the same person... So, 31,000 incidents could easily be 20,000 people. Hard for you to believe?
Yep, it's really, really hard to believe that more than one or two people would get injured by a table saw 10 times in one year in all of the United States.

It's really hard to believe that any significant number would be injured by a table saw five times in one year.

For one thing, the recovery time from a serious injury would put them out of operation for months on end.

Mike

[Karl Brogger]

In other words, the TS injury rate could be more granular, and -- IMHO -- more useful, if we knew the rate as a function of operator/operation hours.

Bingo- If you could figure it per number of cuts, (regadless of size), that number is pretty dang small. Basically non-existant.

I heard on the news the other night that around 3000 people per year are seriously injured from tripping over their pets.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Yep, it's really, really hard to believe that more than one or two people would get injured by a table saw 10 times in one year in all of the United States.

It's really hard to believe that any significant number would be injured by a table saw five times in one year.

For one thing, the recovery time from a serious injury would put them out of operation for months on end.

Mike

Mike, never underestimate stupidity. And remember, nothing is foolproof, as fools are so ingenious!

[Mike Cruz]

Amen to that Maurice! Not to mention, a TS injury does not mean a cut by the blade. Taking a shot to the gut from a kickback, or a projectile to the face might send you to the emergency room, but not keep you off the saw for more than a week or two. That said, I know of a guy that caught one in the gut from a 5hp TS and broke multiple ribs and was in the hospital for over a month....

I wonder if tripping over you pet into your TS counts for both statistics...:rolleyes:

[Chuck Werts]

According to the original study, this does not include people hurt at work. I can tell you from experience that many people work for companies that require a post accident drug test. People who use drugs leave work and claim the accident happened at home. Many illegals and low wageworkers do the same thing out of fear of being fired. I know the tool is dangerous but random statistics mean nothing. As a matter of fact the usually lead to cumbersome Federal regulation. OK,
get down and step away from the soapbox.

[John Coloccia]

If one person a year gets injured, and that one person happens to be you, statistics won't be of much comfort.

I wear a parachute when I'm doing aerobatics. Am I afraid of flying? No. Am I afraid of aerobatics? No. Have I had training out the wazzo? Yes. Do I check the plane over. Yes. Does the place I rent from do inspections and maintenance? Yes. Do planes still break in the air, requiring bail-out? Sure! Does it happen often? No, but once is too much if I'm in the plane.

By the way, anyone ever have a look at Maloof's fingers? Even the best among us screw up sometimes. Sometimes the machine screws up. Sometimes the wood screws up (us turners sure like our face shields, don't we?). Do you scale mountains without rope? What safety gear do you bring with you? Satellite phones, sometimes? Extra supplies? Signalling gear? It's not about fear. It's about risk mitigation where it's practical. Same reason you have GFCI outlets near water, and airbags in a car. Live your life, manage the risk. That makes a lot of sense to me.

[Tom Godley]

Chuck is correct on the "work" statistic. A work injury would obviously fall under workers compensation insurance.

Many contractors do not have the proper WC insurance or incorrectly list employees job descriptions -- this is especially true of owners. This causes many injuries to flow onto personal policies in order to obtain treatment and avoid scrutiny.

[Van Huskey]

According to the original study, this does not include people hurt at work. I can tell you from experience that many people work for companies that require a post accident drug test. People who use drugs leave work and claim the accident happened at home. Many illegals and low wageworkers do the same thing out of fear of being fired. I know the tool is dangerous but random statistics mean nothing. As a matter of fact the usually lead to cumbersome Federal regulation. OK,
get down and step away from the soapbox.


Good points and if the employer has WC insurance you can bet there will be a drug test in any state that intoxication is a defence for the company.

[Van Huskey]

Do you scale mountains without rope?


Funny you should mention that since in rock and mountain climbing climbers often eshew safety measures on purpose. In rock climbing climbing without rope (and/or other safety measures) is called free soloing and the feat of ticking off a climb in this manner is highly respected, the same way climbing 8000+ meter peaks is respected when you don't use supplemental oxygen.

Again it all comes down to managing risk, while there are sports/hobbies that certain people gain satisfaction from "flying without a net" this is not one of them. There is no extra satisfaction from using a table saw without a guard etc. Then again if safety is a primary goal then going neander or at least dumping the TS all together makes sense. There are people that just use a track saw and band saw, if one is completely safety oriented they would not own a TS, SS or not, again just an example of risk management.

[David Jurney]

The great thing about this research and the discussion is that it is a reminder to be careful and opens open a dialog about best safety practices. I did some work on the table saw today and this discussion was fresh in my mind. It made me rethink the best way to approach the cut and I used a featherboard (thanks to the Deals and Discount forum-- glad I found Sawmill Creek) on a table saw for the first time.

[John Michaels]

Friend of mine had an ER doctor tell him two very common accidents he sees are "tablesaws & trampolines".

[Neal Clayton]

oh hey look, another tracksaw/sawstop free ad thread. haven't had one of these in.....two or three weeks?

[Sean Nagle]

Funny you should mention that since in rock and mountain climbing climbers often eshew safety measures on purpose. In rock climbing climbing without rope (and/or other safety measures) is called free soloing and the feat of ticking off a climb in this manner is highly respected, the same way climbing 8000+ meter peaks is respected when you don't use supplemental oxygen.

LOL! I had a rock climbing friend once mentioned that the gum-soled shoes that are typically worn when rock climbing provide too much of an advantage. Apparently "real" rock climbing should be done bare foot.