Cheap Sharpening?

[Matt Walton]

I am sure the subject of sharpening has been beaten into the ground, and is starting to come out the other side, but here goes anyways:
I am still very new to the hobby, so I still don't have a good way of sharpening yet. My uncle sent me some sharp chisels to practice cutting dovetails, and they have been working great.
But eventually, I will have to sharpen them, so I was wondering what the best (read dirt cheapest, but still works good) method is.
I have been considering water stones, sandpaper slightly glued to plate glass, and soaked wet/dry sandpaper on granite.
Now, I would like to have a super sharpening system, but I know that's not happening any time soon, so here is my uneducated thoughts on each one:
Water stones would be really nice, but as I'm 15, I can barely afford anything, and I think that might still be out of my price range.
I think that sandpaper on glass would also be good, but I just feel like the residue from the spray adhesive would build up and not provide a flat surface anymore, though I'm sure that's totally ridiculous.
The last one I find most fascinating. I saw it in a Rockler/Woodcraft (I can't remember which) catalog, and they said that all you have to do is soak wet/dry sandpaper in water, and it will somehow (due to suction or something I guess) fasten itself to the granite, and stay there so you can do your sharpening.
The last option sounds the cheapest, though I haven't really looked into it that much, as I could just buy a slab of granite, and go to town.
What are everybody's thoughts and suggestions on this? is there a wonderfully cheap and perfect way that I have overlooked?
Thanks.

[Brian Kent]

A polished granite tile from Home Depot - about $5 - or a thick piece of glass.

3M abrasives from Lee Valley or Tools For Working Wood - $8 to $14
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33004&cat=1,43072

or: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=ST-MAF.XX&Category_Code=THS
Kit of 2 sheets each of 15, 5, and .3 micron PSA film (6 sheets total) ($13.55) In Stock

A honing guide: $10
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-HG-800-1800&Category_Code=THG

If that is too much (like it was when I was 15) look for a free polished tile or glass plate, get the $8 abrasives, and read up on making a honing jig or hone freehand.

[Andrew Gibson]

I started woodworking at around your age... 14/15. I have been using the sandpaper method since then, about 10 years I guess now. Go to home depot or Lowes and first look to see if the sell marble for window sills (not sure if they still do) I used to be able to get the off cuts for free. you might try a granite place if there is one close to you.

If they don't have the marble for free, go back to the tile and find a granite 12" x 12" they should have some that are about $2. as long as it is polished you should be good.

I have used the wet sandpaper method and the spray glue method to stick the paper down and I find the glue works better, light spray of 3m #77 wait a few second then stick it to your tile. I also take a water bottle, poke a hole in the lid with a nail and use that to keep my paper wet and free of dibrie. I use a cheep honing guide I got somewhere, and it works fine.

To clean the glue residue off the tile, get some mineral spirits, or paint thinner or whatever and wipe down the tile after you pull up the paper. boom no more glue. make sure to get all the grits and use them or you won't get the best results. It wouldn't hurt to get 2 or 3 tiles so you can work through all the grits without taking the paper off to stick down the next grit.

I still end up getting my Paper at the Auto Parts store But I am sure the stuff at the woodworking shops is better and most likely a better buy for what we use it for... that and you can only get up to 2000 grit at auto zone.

P.S. I would go for the Paper and the honing guide that Brian posted from Tools For Working Wood. I have that guide, and the paper looks like the way to go as well. remember not to stick down the entire sheet , you only need a smallish peace at a time... That way you don't waist parts of the paper.

[Bruce Campbell]

Having two teens your age at home, I totally relate to not being able to afford anything and ran into your same problem (though by luck I had gotten a DMT stone before I married into a family). The cheapest solution I found is the sandpaper method.

I lucked into a cheap substrate by going to ReStore (Habitat for Humanity's retail store for their overstock). I managed to grab a fairly large and thick piece of glass for 3 dollars (it's roughly 12x36x.75). A can of 77 adhesive at or around 6 bucks at the Home Center and Sandpaper from various locations. The sandpaper ends up being your most expensive purchase as you'll need several grits to work your way up the honing mountain with.

Couple tips that seem more expensive at first but will pay off:
A) Find about the house or head to the grocery store and buy a small nylon scrub brush. Use this to periodically brush off the swarf (metal and presumably water/oil lubricant). This extends the life of the sandpaper. Go lightly with this but it does help in my experience.

B) as mentioned, cut your sandpaper squares into strips, you only need a strip as wide as your widest blade. This also helps in that if you don't have a large substrate (say you went to Home Depot and got a polished granite tile as suggested by some, excellent suggestion btw), you can adhere several pieces at once and save yourself some time swapping out grits.

C) Mineral spirits to remove the adhesive (or as suggested lacquer thinner, paint remover, whatever). Though, I've found in a pinch the same suggested brush and some water combined with elbow grease can achieve the same results.

D) See the strips mentioned in B. Don't remove a strip until it's done for. If you swap out constantly and re-apply the adhesive build up you are worried about will occur, but on the back of the paper not the substrate.

Good luck and don't be a stranger on here. The first few projects can be a pain and even the simplest looking project can be frustrating (or at least I'm still frustrated) so don't sweat looking for help here or elsewhere. We've all been (or are) there and you're not the only one trying to do it on the cheap with the frustrations that come with that

[Bruce Campbell]

One other thing I meant to mention. Honing guide. Yes it's an added expense and right now being able to afford anything is a challenge. However, with your chisels already being sharpened and you're being fairly new to this, it can be a great thing to have. Yes you should probably at one time learn how to freehand sharpen (shush all you uber-neanderthals), but a cheap even home made sharpening jig can go a long way towards helping keeping you practicing those dovetails and keeping you from screaming about how your tools are only mangling the wood.

One idea for a cheap honing jig:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/The%2010%20Cent%20Sharpening%20System.html

Also for a wide variety of collected sharpening wisdom look up cian perez on the goog. Also a huge a variety of woodworking knowledge on there. That is, of course, in addition to the vast accumulated storehouse here on The Creek.

[James Scheffler]

I think that sandpaper on glass would also be good, but I just feel like the residue from the spray adhesive would build up and not provide a flat surface anymore, though I'm sure that's totally ridiculous.


I can't add a whole lot to what's been said already. I use wet/dry sandpaper on 3/8" plate glass and it works ok. There will be times when you really want to stick the sandpaper to the glass, so spray adhesive is best. With the higher grits (about 800 on up), just spraying water on the glass is sometimes enough to keep the paper in place.

I've found the best solvent to use is acetone to get the spray adhesive off the glass. It's cheap & has relatively low toxicity (though it is smelly - think nail polish remover). Acetone and a razor blade scraper get the job done in just a few minutes.

Jim

P.S. If you want to do some serious metal removal, it's often hard to find low grits of wet/dry locally. I order 100 and 150 from Klingspor: http://www.woodworkingshop.com/ It's high-quality paper.

[Chris Hudson42]

IMHO, one of the best websites on sharpening is Brent Beach's http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/index.html

He concentrates on plane irons, but the techniques will be applicable to your chisels as well.

Plus everything is inexpensive - the most expensive is the 3M PSA paper mentioned above by Brian Kent @ $13.55. He also shows you how to make your own jigs from hardwood and inexpensive T-nuts and machine screws.

Unlike Beach who uses glass substrates, I use the same black polished 12 x 12 granite tile from HD - about $3.50/ea last week when I picked up a box of 5. Use three, one for each 3M micron grit. Work great.

Good Luck!
Chris

[Matt Walton]

Wow, thanks for all the responses!
My head is spinning a little bit, but here is what I have so far.
I need to get some 3M PSA abrasive film.
I also need to get a honing jig, until I can do it freehand.
I need to get a nice flat piece of granite/marble/glass.
So, I am hearing you talking about "oh, I got it free from the offcuts" but how do you get it? Do you just go into HD or Lowes and ask for their countertop cutoffs?

[Mike Siemsen]

As was stated above get your wet or dry sandpaper from an auto parts store.If you don't need to rework an edge I would go with 600, 1000, 2000. You can use the super 77 though it is over kill and the cheaper stuff next to it on the shelf will work just fine. You can use the paper until there appears to be nothing left, it just gets finer and finer. Wipe the water and swarf (the black stuff) off right away when you are done and the paper will last longer. Laying the glass or tile on a thin rubber mat keeps it from scooting around, I use the thin white foam that is used for packing electronics and such. Get one of the eclipse style honing guides that side clamp onto the chisel or iron and have a small roller on the bottom. They run about $12 to $14, you can also make your own from a block of wood. Harbor Freight has them for $3.99 but you have to pay $6 for shipping.

[Matt Walton]

so what's the difference between the harbor freight guide and this one (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-HG-800-1800&Category_Code=THG)?

[Jim Koepke]

Wow, thanks for all the responses!
My head is spinning a little bit, but here is what I have so far.
I need to get some 3M PSA abrasive film.
I also need to get a honing jig, until I can do it freehand.
I need to get a nice flat piece of granite/marble/glass.
So, I am hearing you talking about "oh, I got it free from the offcuts" but how do you get it? Do you just go into HD or Lowes and ask for their countertop cutoffs?

Scrounging, or getting things for free could almost be a web site on its own.

Learning the art of conversation and being able to determine if a person is one who wants to squeeze a dollar out of everything or if they are the kind that is happy to let one thing go to make space for another thing without monetary consideration.

My advice on sharpening would be to continue using scary sharp and as you can, save up to buy either an 8000 stone or a combination 4000/8000. Then as time and saving allow, save up for a 1000 or 2000 stone. I find for work below these grits you will either want a grinder or sand paper.

You may be able to earn some money with your sharpening skills or woodworking skills.

I am retired and the only way I was going to be able to spend as much as I wanted to recently was to sell off some of my extra tools and also to buy old tools and fix them up for sale. It took some of my time, but in the end, I was able to acquire some nice additions to my shop. I am now considering doing it all over again to buy a few more tools. It is getting around to yard sale and flea market season the timing is good.

What every you do, learn as you go and enjoy what you are doing,

jim

[James Ogle]

Matt,

For free cutoffs first place to check is the Kitchen Cabinet Desk. Ask them if they have any discontinued samples of granite or quartz countertop. I got some very nice 6x8 inch peices a few years back. I also got two 20x30 inch peices of quartz countertop, sink outcuts, for a sharpenig bench I plan on building soon. Lots of times when they change vendors the old samples just get left in a cabinet. If they don't have any go to the tile section and ask if they have cut any granite tile recently. Offcuts are often left at the wetsaw until someone makes them clean it up.

If both of those are a strikeout try either countertop fabricators or monument makers, gravestones. At either of these places talk to the guys in the shop. Explain what you are looking for and why you want it. They might be willing to part with some very nice materials to further along your skills. Most craftsman are very willing to help out another. I have gotten a lot of stuff for free or very little outlay just by asking. Just remember to return the favor someday.

[Jim Koepke]

so what's the difference between the harbor freight guide and this one (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-HG-800-1800&Category_Code=THG)?

Not sure of the particular difference if there is one. Harbor Freight is a multi store retailer and searches for the lowest cost sources for huge purchases. They are not concerned as much with quality as they are with price.

At Tools For Working Wood, there is more concern with their single outlet not having to deal with an unsatisfied customer.

There are many types of customer.

There is the kind that will buy something cheap just because it is cheap and may never use it or get one use from it and be happy.

Another is the kind that will buy something cheap and if it is no good they will just think about how cheap it was and go back looking for another "bargain."

There are those who will not buy something just because it is low priced. I have to be able to see that the bargain is not a hole for throwing money away.

Denebe from Lie-Nielsen was showing us the inexpensive sharpening guide they sell that looks similar to the one shown at the link. He said LN is planing on making their own version of this style guide. The one he had needed a few user modifications to work at its full potential.

The blade support needed to be filed a little so it wouldn't crown a thin blade.

Some of the front was also removed to allow for clearance when a blade doesn't project far enough to keep the guide from hitting the stone.

jim

[Michael Faurot]

This is diamond honing block from Harbor Freight is pretty decent and at $15 shouldn't break the bank:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92867

[Zach England]

Also, if using one of the cheap honing guides, it is possible to build a jig to measure the blade protrusion in a way that allows you to repeat the bevel angle. I use the veritas honing guide for this reason, but I imagine with a little fiddling a shop built alternative would work fine.

[Steve Dallas]

I am sure the subject of sharpening has been beaten into the ground, and is starting to come out the other side, but here goes anyways:
I am still very new to the hobby, so I still don't have a good way of sharpening yet. My uncle sent me some sharp chisels to practice cutting dovetails, and they have been working great.
But eventually, I will have to sharpen them, so I was wondering what the best (read dirt cheapest, but still works good) method is.
I have been considering water stones, sandpaper slightly glued to plate glass, and soaked wet/dry sandpaper on granite.
Now, I would like to have a super sharpening system, but I know that's not happening any time soon, so here is my uneducated thoughts on each one:
Water stones would be really nice, but as I'm 15, I can barely afford anything, and I think that might still be out of my price range.
I think that sandpaper on glass would also be good, but I just feel like the residue from the spray adhesive would build up and not provide a flat surface anymore, though I'm sure that's totally ridiculous.
The last one I find most fascinating. I saw it in a Rockler/Woodcraft (I can't remember which) catalog, and they said that all you have to do is soak wet/dry sandpaper in water, and it will somehow (due to suction or something I guess) fasten itself to the granite, and stay there so you can do your sharpening.
The last option sounds the cheapest, though I haven't really looked into it that much, as I could just buy a slab of granite, and go to town.
What are everybody's thoughts and suggestions on this? is there a wonderfully cheap and perfect way that I have overlooked?
Thanks.

Assuming you have a basic, slow speed grinder (no need to spend wads of cash) all you need is a medium oilstone and either a hard black Arkansas or translucent Arkansas stone. In the fullness of time, you won't get any cheaper than this setup - a setup by the way that has produced many, many fine pieces of furniture.

Let's recap - (1) slow speed grinder; (1) Medium synthetic oilstone; (1) of EITHER a hard black Ark. or translucent Ark.

Two stones and one grinder.

Oilstone slips if you get into carving - 'nother discussion for another day.

[Rob Young]

so what's the difference between the harbor freight guide and this one (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-HG-800-1800&Category_Code=THG)?

About $6. It has been my experience looking at several of the Eclipse clones that all of them suffer from over-painting.

If you get the HF one, also get some of their little needle files (8 or 10 in a kit?). Then very carefully clean out the excess paint in the corners of the jig. Pay attention to keep things as square as you can. In the end the jig will grip better.

Have fun!

[Eddie Darby]

If you want to go really cheap, then find someone with a sharpening fetish, and then tease them with all your dull tools, just yearning to be made sharp!!!!!!:eek::D:rolleyes::cool:


Otherwise the wet/dry paper on a flat glass/granite surface is cheap, and has the benefit of actually working exceedingly well! Just have a spray bottle handy to keep things wet, and wash off the debris frequently.
The real costs only occur in the long run, with heavy amounts of paper being used, so this is the cheapest way for a beginner to get good results, and if you get rich, don't change over to something more expensive, since if it ain't broken, don't fix it!

Brent Beach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8TNuXSuYGM

Home-page.

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/station.html#jig

[Matt Rogers]

I followed the advice here, in a previous post. Ace Hardware sells sandpaper by the sheet, up to about 5000 grit, I believe. An automotive store will have grits up to about 2000 (mine came from Advance Auto).

I got the cheap harbor freight honing guide, which is the same as the other ones.

There was a thick piece of tempered glass used for a candle holder that I use as the base, I think it was $2 on sale at a Hobble lobby. I would like to get a piece of tile though, that seems like a better idea.

Here is the link the to the harbor Freight honing guide:
http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=honing+guide&Submit=Go

The method described by the guys here really works!

--Matt Rogers

[Rob Young]

Also, if using one of the cheap honing guides, it is possible to build a jig to measure the blade protrusion in a way that allows you to repeat the bevel angle. I use the veritas honing guide for this reason, but I imagine with a little fiddling a shop built alternative would work fine.

Yes. Many of the jigs have the basic info stamped on the jig. If not, just experiment until you find the projection. Then make something like this jig. To use, I clamp it in the bench vice with the appropriate angle side poking out. Then I can hold the jig up to the end, slide in the blade/chisel and tighten it down.

I happened to use some scraps of cherry, cut-offs where I trimmed out some sap wood. Plywood would work fine but any hardwood is great.

I should also mention that I've seen similar projection setting jigs built onto the same board used to hold the waterstones and other sharpening paraphernalia.

Its all good, especially if you get consistent results. Having a bevel of EXACTLY 25 degrees is less important than getting good consistent results with a bevel of 24.3 or something else close to your target angle.

[Rob Young]

Good job. See if you can find a nice metal ruler or other reasonably straight edge to check your glass plate. Float glass is the "flattest" but more expensive. Pressed or rolled glass is cheaper and may look flat but isn't always.

You don't need a set of feeler gauges (although they are handy), you can substitute things like playing cards, sheets of paper and tissue paper. With an un-abused metal ruler held with its long thin edge to the glass, sight down the glass and look for gaps. Estimate the thickness of the gaps with a feeler gauge or your substitute materials. Check several places and directions across the glass.

If it is only out say "tissue paper" then it will be fine. If it is dished or humped by a playing card thickness, that can be quite a large amount.

[bridger berdel]

for starters the black wet/dry sandpaper from the hardware store will work fine.

look in your local phone book for a glass shop or a granite countertop maker shop. at the glass shop you'll be asking for a scrap of whatever thick scraps they have about the size of your sandpaper. the granite shop scraps will all be plenty thick.

borrow a protractor if you don't have one now and use it to cut out some triangles at different angles to use to check yourself as you teach yourself to sharpen freehand. you don't need a jig. most steel tools have an edge somewhere in the 30 degree range.

with a bit of creative sourcing you can set up for sharpening for almost free.




Wow, thanks for all the responses!
My head is spinning a little bit, but here is what I have so far.
I need to get some 3M PSA abrasive film.
I also need to get a honing jig, until I can do it freehand.
I need to get a nice flat piece of granite/marble/glass.
So, I am hearing you talking about "oh, I got it free from the offcuts" but how do you get it? Do you just go into HD or Lowes and ask for their countertop cutoffs?

[Matt Walton]

If both of those are a strikeout try either countertop fabricators or monument makers, gravestones.
Now that's ironic! It just so happens that we know somebody who sells (makes I assume) gravestones! :eek: He's one of our model train friends, so I will ask him if he has any scrap granite.


Assuming you have a basic, slow speed grinder (no need to spend wads of cash) all you need is a medium oilstone and either a hard black Arkansas or translucent Arkansas stone. In the fullness of time, you won't get any cheaper than this setup - a setup by the way that has produced many, many fine pieces of furniture.

Let's recap - (1) slow speed grinder; (1) Medium synthetic oilstone; (1) of EITHER a hard black Ark. or translucent Ark.

Two stones and one grinder.
That would be all fine and dandy if I had a slow speed grinder, but I don't at the moment, so that would not work for me and the whole cheapness thing. But that is eventually my goal, or something like it.

[Jim Koepke]

That would be all fine and dandy if I had a slow speed grinder, but I don't at the moment, so that would not work for me and the whole cheapness thing. But that is eventually my goal, or something like it.

There are many opinions on this. Some like the standard bench grinder or the slow speed grinders that produce what is called a hollow grind. A hollow grind makes setting a blade on to a stone and feeling the contact easier than with a flat grind on a blade.

Flattening the back of a blade is tricky with an abrasive surface spinning in an arc. Some suggest using the side of the wheel, but my upbringing does not allow such use of a bench grinder.

Others like to have a flat disk sharpening system like the WorkMate or the Veritas Mk. II power sharpening system. The abrasive on these is replaceable sheets. These are easy to use for flattening backs. Some folks have other problems with this type of equipment.

Different folks have problems with different kinds of equipment. That is why there are so many choices to pick from and find what works for you.

If you intend to do a lot of rehabbing old tools, I find the flat disk system works well for me.

jim

[Matt Walton]

Well, our refrigerator went out, so while we looked around for new ones, we happened into Stone Appliance. As my parents discussed the details of the new fridge, I asked the very nice woman if she had any spare counter samples, or something like that, so she showed me a whole rack of them, and told me to take whichever one I wanted. So now I have (I think) a 12" x 12" x 3/4" piece of granite. I was planning on laying out the sandpaper something like this: 3 strips of paper side by side, maybe ~3" wide strips on the outside, and a ~6" wide strip in the middle, so I will have a little more room to flatten the back. If I made all the strips 8" long, I would have room for another ~4" wide strip at the end of them. Do I need 4 grits, or is 3 enough?

[Jim Koepke]

Do I need 4 grits, or is 3 enough?

This depends on how sharp you want to get and how dull the blade was at the start.

You could go 120 - 400 - 600 - 2000. You will find maintaining a blade will require less grits than rehabilitating a blade. Needs will change with the condition of the blade.

I have abrasive paper up to 2500 that was bought from an automotive supply store. That is about 8µ grit size. I think there are finer papers available. If you are getting into that range, it is my opinion that you would be better off saving up to buy a water stone or hard Arkansas stone as soon as possible. A 2,000 grade water stone and an hard black or translucent Arkansas stone are both in this area.

I use and 8,000 grade water stone and it gets sharp enough to shave. If I could afford one, would I buy a finer stone? Of course. Once you get acceptably sharp, you will find you want exceptionally sharp. Once you get exceptionally sharp, you will find you want…

jim

[Matt Walton]

120 seems really coarse to me. Would I not be better off going 400 - 600 - 2000 - 2500? or instead of 2500, get maybe 1200 or something, just to bridge the seemingly large gap between 600 and 2000? Or is it more like logarithmic growth, so there's really not a huge difference between 600 and 2000?

[Sam Takeuchi]

If I were to choose from the range Jim specified, I'd go with 600-1000-2500. Also have 120 or something really coarse handy in case I'd have to grind. Just get a couple sheets coarse papers, it'd be only a couple of bucks. You won't need it every day, but you'll be glad when there is a chip on the edge. Grit numbers and grit sizes aren't that linear and honestly if you choose 800, 1000 or 1200 for medium range, it doesn't make drastic difference. It does make sharpening efficient or inefficient depending on the rest of the set however. Of course that is assuming you follow up with higher grit paper(s) for final honing.

1200 paper isn't really that fine. It's still middle of the road. For final honing or polishing, it's pretty customary to finish with a very fine material, fine enough that you can't feel abrasive on it when you rub your finger on the material.

You can skip from 600 to 2500, especially if you use micro bevel, it'll be pretty easy and wouldn't be a problem.

[Gaz Palmer]

120 seems really coarse to me. Would I not be better off going 400 - 600 - 2000 - 2500? or instead of 2500, get maybe 1200 or something, just to bridge the seemingly large gap between 600 and 2000? Or is it more like logarithmic growth, so there's really not a huge difference between 600 and 2000?


A course 120 grit comes in especially handy if ever you need to re-grind/profile a blade, so I'd tend to keep it on your list, but a simple set-up using either a combination oil stone (Course & Fine grits) + Medium stone or a set of three stones amounting to the same grits (Course, Medium and Fine) plus leather strop and stropping paste should serve you well for years to come or until your sharpening techniques evolve.

The option of whether or not to use a honing guide is totally up to you and there's no right or wrong way of going about sharpening IF the end results are good, clean, squarely cut and sharp edge tools.

Water stones- wise you could consider 220 (Course), 2000 (Medium) and 4000 (Fine) grit as a reasonable starter set-up. Extra fine can be achieved using papers up to 10,000 grit and/or a leather strop with paste.

If you decide to go with using water stones or simple wet and dry papers, add a little bicarbonate of soda/sodium bicarbonate/baking powder to the water you're using and it helps prevent premature surface rust from forming. It's a simple trick used by Japanese sword polishers. Suppliment this by adding a little washing up liquid to the water and you'll find the liquid detergent helps break surface tension while allowing the stone to cut more quickly whilst reducing clogging of stone or papers. Both additions can be used with the scary sharp system. ;)

[Tim Put]

Ebay diamond paste and a chunk of MDF or almost anything else flat-ish.

It'll run you around $20 shipped, and it makes edges as sharp as any other method can.

[Jim Koepke]

Even though people are saying different things, it is still what works for them.

Here is a post with a .pdf on grit comparisons:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1063417#poststop

I have a few coarse water stones, but my opinion is that they wear too fast.

I have a 4 foot long piece of granite to which I adhere pressure sensitive adhesive backed sand paper. That will take down a nick or rusted blade rather quick.

Usually for just maintaining an edge my 8,000 stone and a little honing is sufficient. If I do a lot of planing or a small nick occurs, then I might have to get down to 1,000 or 2,000 grade stone. Most of the time I do not go below 4,000.

Many people like to hollow grind their blades. I do not. Mainly because I do not have a bench grinder. For free hand sharpening, a hollow grind is a bit easier to register correctly on a stone.

I usually do not micro bevel my blades. Others swear by it.

The ruler trick is OK for some, not me.

Just because someone does it differently does not make one way better than the other.

It really is not about the edge on the tool, it is about what the edge does to the wood.

jim

[Gaz Palmer]

Edge retention tends to be a very high priority and whilst a hollow grind can provide a seemingly keener edge and faster re-honing time it doesn't tend to prove as resilient as flat or apple seed profile grinds.

Less material backing the cutting edge = less durable edge

Registering a blade edge against the stone is fairly simple when working free hand. Simply lay the blade's grind bevel flat to the stone until it displaces the oil or water before raising the blade to your honing angle and away you go. ;)

[Sam Takeuchi]

Personally I haven't noticed any difference in edge retention between flat and hollow ground bevel at all. I'm sure with enough data, one could come up with a conclusive answer, but in a practical sense, I think the amount of lost "meat" behind edge is so minute and insignificant that I doubt hollow grinding is causing any realistic premature edge failure when compared with flat bevel. In this case I'm talking about plane blades and paring chisels. I haven't seen or heard others raising concern over supposed lesser durability either.

I don't think anyone is saying hollow grinding can attain keener edge, though. It's simply a method of tool maintenance, no different from any other method. I doubt anyone believes it has some magical property that would get the edge sharper for the sake of doing so.

[James Scheffler]

This depends on how sharp you want to get and how dull the blade was at the start.

You could go 120 - 400 - 600 - 2000. You will find maintaining a blade will require less grits than rehabilitating a blade. Needs will change with the condition of the blade.




I have used wet/dry sandpaper method a lot for sharpening, and I think that jumping from 120 to 400 is way too much. You'll be working forever trying to remove the deep scratches left by the 120 paper. I would add in a couple grits in between. I usually use 150, 220, 320, 400. However, I agree with Jim K that you only really need to go that low if the blade is really dull or you're trying to reshape the edge, sand out a nick, etc. Sometimes it makes sense to start at 60 or 100 for flattening a badly out-of-whack plane sole or back of a blade. If the blade is just a bit dull, 400 is a good place to start.

Jumping from 600 to 2,000 could work, however, I use 1,000 and 1,500 in between and then go up to 2,500.

It doesn't take any longer to use more grits because you need to take fewer passes on each one. But as you know, you need to have space on your sharpening surface to line them all up. The initial investment is higher, but generally each grit will last longer so it ends up being the same or cheaper.

I've gone back and forth between Norton water stones and sandpaper. Currently I'm using a 1,000/4,000 water stone, then to 1,500 - 2,000 - 2,500 sandpaper, then to green compound on a leather strop. Those three sandpaper grits could be replaced by the 8,000 Norton water stone, which I will purchase one of these days. The stones really do cut faster, and their formulation makes it possible to make those large jumps in grit with ease.

Jim S.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't think anyone is saying hollow grinding can attain keener edge, though. It's simply a method of tool maintenance, no different from any other method. I doubt anyone believes it has some magical property that would get the edge sharper for the sake of doing so.

To me, the advantage of hollow grind is that there is less metal to remove than with a flat bevel. Big deal, I use a flat bevel.

The other advantage is the feel when setting the blade on a stone. This could be helpful for a newbie, but my method is to use a flat bevel.

jim

[john brenton]

I use a small belt sander belt. Get the finer grit. You can get them at walmart for about $3 and you can get a lot done with it. They last. Just use the spray on adhesive and adhere it to anything relatively flat.

Spray some WD 40 on it to lubricate it, and spray more WD-40 on it to float the junk to the top when you are done.

Get an arkansas stone from home depot and your good to go. I'd say nay on the honing guide, but if you really need one they sell them at harbor freight.



Wow, thanks for all the responses!
My head is spinning a little bit, but here is what I have so far.
I need to get some 3M PSA abrasive film.
I also need to get a honing jig, until I can do it freehand.
I need to get a nice flat piece of granite/marble/glass.
So, I am hearing you talking about "oh, I got it free from the offcuts" but how do you get it? Do you just go into HD or Lowes and ask for their countertop cutoffs?

[Gaz Palmer]

Personally I haven't noticed any difference in edge retention between flat and hollow ground bevel at all. I'm sure with enough data, one could come up with a conclusive answer, but in a practical sense, I think the amount of lost "meat" behind edge is so minute and insignificant that I doubt hollow grinding is causing any realistic premature edge failure when compared with flat bevel. In this case I'm talking about plane blades and paring chisels. I haven't seen or heard others raising concern over supposed lesser durability either.

I don't think anyone is saying hollow grinding can attain keener edge, though. It's simply a method of tool maintenance, no different from any other method. I doubt anyone believes it has some magical property that would get the edge sharper for the sake of doing so.


Any plane blade will do, but there's no real need to be such a cynic. :p Less meat behind an edge tends to lead to a less resilient edge, e.g. razor blade compared to knife edge, machete compared to felling axe, etc.. Edges can and do curl, wear prematurely and chip and this is most often seen if hollow grinding is taken to the extreme when sharpening chisels. Whilst it's a case of form following utility and cutting ability being enhanced via the use of various alloy steels, the amount of material left behind the primary cutting bevel can and does make a very real difference in blade performance and edge durability. The degree of rake in a hollow ground edge is one variable that tends to be minimised during blade manufacture through the use of large diameter grinding wheels (Shallow/flat grind), but is typically altered during post-purchase by users re-grinding with smaller diameter wheels (Hollow grind).

Both books, "The Craft of the Japanese Sword" and "The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing" by Yoshindo Yoshihara, Setsuo Takaiwa & Leon Knapp cover the topics of sharpening and edge retention involving hollow and flat ground blades with edges rated above 60 Rockwell. Sword related perhaps, but still very relevant to cutting edge retention and blade geometry and directly reflected by the manner in which Japanese plane blades are prepared, ground and honed.

[Prashun Patel]

Matt-
You have a lot of maturity for 15. I expect great things from you over the years if you keep it up!!!

The sandpaper or scary sharp method is excellent for now.

Definitely buy a $14 side-mount honing guide. I think they're called the Eclipse style. They're about the cheapest/best thing for sharpening chisels.

The nice thing abt sandpaper is you never have to tune yr shapening equipment (no tables or stones to flatten, etc.).

I suggest you spend a lot of time with this before you spend a bunch on a Tormek or Wolverine or Worksharp or wet stones and all their accessories. The learning on sandpaper is invaluable.

[Matt Walton]

Matt-
You have a lot of maturity for 15. I expect great things from you over the years if you keep it up!!!

The sandpaper or scary sharp method is excellent for now.

Definitely buy a $14 side-mount honing guide. I think they're called the Eclipse style. They're about the cheapest/best thing for sharpening chisels.

The nice thing abt sandpaper is you never have to tune yr shapening equipment (no tables or stones to flatten, etc.).

I suggest you spend a lot of time with this before you spend a bunch on a Tormek or Wolverine or Worksharp or wet stones and all their accessories. The learning on sandpaper is invaluable.
Gee, thanks.
As soon as I can get somebody to take me to Ace, I'll start sharpening with a chisel that can't get much worse than it already is.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Comparing razor, knife, machete, axe and sword to chisels and plane blades doesn't really work. Like plane blade is never subjected to the type of slashing force sword, axe or machete deal with. They are different tools, made for different cutting actions and comparing one against another doesn't really make much sense.

Like I said, I'm sure there are quantifiable difference in chisel and plane blade edge retention with appropriate amount of data, but really, if you are having noticeable difference in edge retention in ordinary woodworking condition with hollow ground blades, there is something wrong. The missing metal immediately behind cutting edge due to hollow grind is couple thousandth of an inch at max even in extreme case (we aren't comparing the deepest part of hollow grind here).

About Japanese plane blade, their avoidance to use "grinder" (not hollow grind per se) is due to wide spread believe in losing temper. It is especially true where traditionally sharpening and honing was done by apprentices who also had to sharpen and hone their mentors' plane blades and chisels. While I didn't ask the ones I know personally (after all, I'm from Japan and I happen to know quite a few), one thing I can be pretty certain is that they wouldn't be concerned about missing 0.05mm behind cutting edge causing premature edge failure.

Take a flat bevel plane blade, go over a board and count until it dulls. Hollow grind the same blade, go over the board and count until it dulls. It really isn't going to be much difference.

[David Weaver]

Sam, I agree. Absent of levering, determination of the edge durability is pretty much decided by the final bevel.

I used to do a flat 25 degree primary and secondary and tertiary bevels on everything believing that it was more durable.

I hollow grind most things now, including new japanese chisels when the face is out of whack and I don't want to spend a half an hour on a diamond stone to get it square and flat. I think the scuttle about japanese plane blades is mostly from Odate's book, and I don't think he was talking about weakening an iron with a 10 inch diameter wheel. I have never had an issue on plane blades or chisels, and eventually with use that hollow gets worked out in my irons and disappears. I have never had an issue other than dropping some chisels once - don't expect the edges of any of those would've survived the concrete floor.

Knife sharpening and razor sharpening aren't like woodworking tools. the difference between a 26 degree effective support behind an edge and 28 is nil in practice. On a razor, what is it, between 5 and 10 degrees total, and then precisionally ground? Doesn't matter, because it only shaves hair. On a kitchen knife, you can go all the way across the board, from a very delicate slicing knife to a Deba or whatever. a degree or two of effective shallowing from the hollow grind makes a difference when the angle is very thin, but not so much when it's 30 degrees.

The other thing to think about with japanese tools and the hollow grind is that the steel has 1.4+% carbon in some cases, which loses its temper at a much lower temperature than what we're using in western tools. Low enough that you can temper them on a roof. Someone with a light enough touch and patience could still grind the tools, but there's no reason to risk it if you care for them properly, and if you did burn them, how would you fix your error? Not many have the expertise to reharden properly and you wouldn't want to grind.

But, anyway, I'll start wondering about the hollow grind strength when it isn't the very edge of the iron or chisel that's failing first - the part that's honed flat. so far, that's always been the part that fails for me - which shows indifference toward everything else behind it.

[Gaz Palmer]

The blade types I'd referred to were provided as a means of illustrating how form tends to follow utility when sharpening/forming an edge. A simple illustration of how sharpening angles are influenced by intended useage and blade type. NOT an ill advised attempt at comparing machete and Japanese Swords (Nihon-to) to chisels and planes and certainly not an element of confusion on my part.

My reference to sword polishing and how angles affect edge retention and cutting action was made without direct comparisons between sword and plane or chisel blades and their varying uses, but still relevant to honing angles and how they can directly affect edge retention. Both were simple points of reference from which examples can be drawn and totally relevant to western blades made using crucible, W1, O1, A2, etc., steel.

0.60–0.75% carbon: machine parts, chisels, setscrews; properties include medium hardness with good toughness and shock resistance.
0.76–0.90% carbon: forging dies, hammers, and sledges.
0.91–1.10% carbon: general purpose tooling applications that require a good balance of wear resistance and toughness, such as drills, cutters, and shear blades.
1.11–1.30% carbon: small drills, lathe tools, razor blades, and other light-duty applications where extreme hardness is required without great toughness.

Carbon content in the edge steel of Japanese blades tends toward 1 and 1.2% and not 1.4% prior to forging, but finishes at approx 0.7% after the forging process due to carbon loss and still attains ahardness of approx 58-62 HRc. The effects of embrittlement become all too evident if carbon content is too high and edges possess too high a carbon content. Perhaps fine for making tool dies, etc., but not cutting edges because they'd be too brittle for edge tool use (Chisels, plane blades, lawn mower blades, etc.). Emphasis is upon toughness and edge retention which is enhanced via tempering (Drawing the blade) to 160deg C over a flame, within a forge or an oven. Certainly not upon a roof top.

During my apprenticeship we were taught how to forge, harden and temper edged tools, because we'd often have to make non-stock blades with specific uses in mind e.g. moulding plane blades, swan necked chisels, etc. without having to rely upon blacksmiths and other external sources. It's such a shame this aspect of work appears to be a disappearing or lost amongst many of today's craftsman.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Just to fill your curiosity, here's a data from Tsunesaburo (plane blade blacksmith):

High carbon steel:
-White super (C 1.35 ~ 1.4%)
-Kawatetsu carbon steel (C 1.05 ~ 1.1%)
-Swedish steel (C 1.25 ~ 1.28%)

Alloy
-Blue steel No.1A (C 1.3 ~ 1.4%, Cr 0.28 ～ 0.3%, W 2.0 ～ 2.2)
-Blue steel No.1B (C 1.2 ~ 1.3%, Cr. 0.3 ~ 0.5%, W 1.5 ~ 2.0%)
-forged Blue steel No.1 (C 1.25 ~ 1.28%, Cr 0.3 ~ 0.5%, W 1.5 ~ 2.0%)
-Special blade steel (C 1.33 ~ 1.35%, Cr 0.72 ~ 0.75%, W 5.5 ~ 5.7%)
-Tsubame steel (C 1.28 ~ 1.3%, Cr 1.4 ~ 1.43%, W 6.45 ~ 6.5%)
-Blue steel super (C 1.4 ~ 1.5%, Cr 0.3 ~ 0.5%, W 2 ~ 2.5%, Mo 0.3 ~ 0.5%, V 0.3 ~ 0.5%)
-Inukubi steel (C 1.15 ~ 1.17%, Cr 1.32 ~ 1.35%, W 5.0 ~ 5.06%, Mo 0.18 ~ 0.21%, V 0.38 ~ 0.4%)
-Togo Reigo (C 1.4 ~ 1.5%, Cr 0.5 ~ 0.6%, W 5.0 ~ 5.06%, Mo 0.05 ~ 0.08%, V 0.16 ~ 0.2%)

HSS
-SKH51 = M2 (C 0.8 ~ 0.9%, Cr 3.8 ~ 4.5%, W 6.0 ~ 7.0%, Mo 4.8 ~ 5.8%, V 1.8 ~ 2.3%)

Powdered HSS
-HAP40 (C 1.27 ~ 1.37%, Cr 3.7 ~ 4.7%, W 5.6 ~ 6.4%, Mo 4.6 ~ 5.4%, V 2.8% ~ 3.3%)

Data available from their site (in Japanese) (http://www.tsune36.co.jp/shin_01.html)

Infamous Tamahagane used for sword and in rare cases high end tools (excluding scrap Tamahagane made knives and utensils) normally contains carbon content of 1.0% ~ 1.5%.

Edit: Sorry Matt for derailing your thread.

[Gaz Palmer]

Just to fill your curiosity, here's a data from Tsunesaburo (plane blade blacksmith):

High carbon steel:
-White super (C 1.35 ~ 1.4%)
-Kawatetsu carbon steel (C 1.05 ~ 1.1%)
-Swedish steel (C 1.25 ~ 1.28%)

Alloy
-Blue steel No.1A (C 1.3 ~ 1.4%, Cr 0.28 ～ 0.3%, W 2.0 ～ 2.2)
-Blue steel No.1B (C 1.2 ~ 1.3%, Cr. 0.3 ~ 0.5%, W 1.5 ~ 2.0%)
-forged Blue steel No.1 (C 1.25 ~ 1.28%, Cr 0.3 ~ 0.5%, W 1.5 ~ 2.0%)
-Special blade steel (C 1.33 ~ 1.35%, Cr 0.72 ~ 0.75%, W 5.5 ~ 5.7%)
-Tsubame steel (C 1.28 ~ 1.3%, Cr 1.4 ~ 1.43%, W 6.45 ~ 6.5%)
-Blue steel super (C 1.4 ~ 1.5%, Cr 0.3 ~ 0.5%, W 2 ~ 2.5%, Mo 0.3 ~ 0.5%, V 0.3 ~ 0.5%)
-Inukubi steel (C 1.15 ~ 1.17%, Cr 1.32 ~ 1.35%, W 5.0 ~ 5.06%, Mo 0.18 ~ 0.21%, V 0.38 ~ 0.4%)
-Togo Reigo (C 1.4 ~ 1.5%, Cr 0.5 ~ 0.6%, W 5.0 ~ 5.06%, Mo 0.05 ~ 0.08%, V 0.16 ~ 0.2%)

HSS
-SKH51 = M2 (C 0.8 ~ 0.9%, Cr 3.8 ~ 4.5%, W 6.0 ~ 7.0%, Mo 4.8 ~ 5.8%, V 1.8 ~ 2.3%)

Powdered HSS
-HAP40 (C 1.27 ~ 1.37%, Cr 3.7 ~ 4.7%, W 5.6 ~ 6.4%, Mo 4.6 ~ 5.4%, V 2.8% ~ 3.3%)

Data available from their site (in Japanese) (http://www.tsune36.co.jp/shin_01.html)

Infamous Tamahagane used for sword and in rare cases high end tools (excluding scrap Tamahagane made knives and utensils) normally contains carbon content of 1.0% ~ 1.5%.


I wasn't at all curious, but Tamahagane - and many other steels depending upon how they're worked - de-carburise/lose carbon by up to 36% during the forge folding process. It begins with a carbon content between 1 - 1.5%, but actually reduces to approximately 0.7% during forging.

Typical high carbon tool steel used for plane and chisel blades contains between 0.6 and 0.75% carbon after processing. This is unless alloyed with other elements to reduce embrittlement problems.

Detail regarding English O1 steel; http://www.westyorkssteel.com/01.html

http://www.threeplanes.net/toolsteel.html

[David Weaver]

That's a fine departure. Even if everything loses a relative amount of carbon, the comparison is the same. It still makes no sense to try to make a far-reaching argument when there is a very simple test to tell whether or not hollow grinding or a shallow flat primary with a microbevel makes a difference in use - point to the difference in incidence where something other than the steel at the edge is failing.

That is, show us the data of chisels or plane blades that fail at the hollow because of the hollow grind, or that fail back from a properly done microbevel because the primary is too shallow and the method is flawed.

There is no need to introduce swords, razors, kitchen knives or anything else if there is no such common failure, because they are just fluff discussion when there is no real problem with any of the methods.

[Gaz Palmer]

That's a fine departure. Even if everything loses a relative amount of carbon, the comparison is the same. It still makes no sense to try to make a far-reaching argument when there is a very simple test to tell whether or not hollow grinding or a shallow flat primary with a microbevel makes a difference in use - point to the difference in incidence where something other than the steel at the edge is failing.

That is, show us the data of chisels or plane blades that fail at the hollow because of the hollow grind, or that fail back from a properly done microbevel because the primary is too shallow and the method is flawed.

There is no need to introduce swords, razors, kitchen knives or anything else if there is no such common failure, because they are just fluff discussion when there is no real problem with any of the methods.


Firstly. Nobody was arguing or attempting to force a point and I've certainly not attempted to demand you prove any of the views you've tried to enforce.

Secondly. All that was intended was to voice the need for caution where beginners are deciding upon a given sharpening technique. Not everyone has larger diameter grinding wheels at their disposal - many DIY items are 4" dia. - and this can often lead to excessive hollow grinding.

Thirdly and based directly upon 38years as a craftsman. Apprentices and newcomers often make mistakes when sharpening tool edges and one of the most common failings is if one over grinds a hollow bevel and risks overheating/bluing the edge. Especially so in the case of chisel and plane blades.

You seem to forget that the originator of this thread is a learner and doesn't possess your undoubted level of experience. I'll write a book and then provide a few valid quotes for your perusal and undoubted critique. ;)

[Matt Walton]

Now, children, you behave!