Need some help: Under mount slide question

[Michael Drew]

I’m building a mission stile jewelry armoire. I’m about to start making the drawers and had planned to use some KV under mount slides. The drawers are 12.5” deep, 16” wide. Half are 2.5” high and half are 4.75” high. I was going to just use ¼” ply for the drawer bottoms, but that obviously will not be thick enough for the slide screws. I didn’t want to use ½” ply for the bottoms as that just takes up another ¼” of usable drawer height. I’m now considering using double sided tape and just stick the slides to the drawer bottoms, but that just doesn’t seam very “craftsmanship” like. I’m not real sure what other options I have. I might just have to go with a different method for the drawers all together. I can not use side mount slides. I built the whole case around drawer size because I’m using some tray inserts I bought from Rockler. Too late to change now. I’ve since installed drawer runners on the case in the picture. Suggestions would be welcomed.

thank you.....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/mdrew/Wood%20Working%20Projects/20100226-P2266185.jpg

[Tad Capar]

I usually go with side mount, but did use Blum udermounts for one job and I'm pretty sure they were mountable to the side of the drawer (from under neat, screwed at the angle), not to the bottom.

[Steve Griffin]

Wow, what a beautiful cabinet. I really like the bold side panel frames.

As far as your question, I'm extemely confused as to why 1/4" drawer height is important. Do you have certain size of doll house figurines you need to store?:D

Add some depth to the drawer bottoms and you are golden.

-Steve

[Kent A Bathurst]

........I’ve since installed drawer runners on the case in the picture....

I might be missing something - but why would you need both runners and slides? With properly sized runners, they could act as both runner + kicker, and ...voila.

[Jeff Monson]

I dont see why you cant use undermount slides, I've used blum undermounts for many drawers and they work awesome. The screws for the slides go into the drawer back, not the bottom.

[Darnell Hagen]

1/4" is thick enough, buy short screws, install them with a screwdriver, not a drill.

Blum rails don't screw to the box, the little quick release handle does. Two screws into the bottom, two into the drawer front.

[Michael Drew]

I finished the drawer sides yesterday (finally got to try DT's on my new Incra router table system) and now need to figure cut the dado for the bottems.

I’m not an ‘experienced’ cabinet maker or furniture builder. I make this stuff up as I go. I have not ever made anything like this either. I wasn’t real sure what I could, or should do. Please feel free to dummy down as needed. I can promise you I will not be offended.


I dont see why you cant use undermount slides, I've used blum undermounts for many drawers and they work awesome. The screws for the slides go into the drawer back, not the bottom.


I usually go with side mount, but did use Blum udermounts for one job and I'm pretty sure they were mountable to the side of the drawer (from under neat, screwed at the angle), not to the bottom.

The slides I bought are KV1129 ZC 12’s. I went with these because they were the thinnest I could find. You use only one and it is in the drawer center. They attach to the drawers via screws into the bottom drawer panel. The ¼” plywood I have is actually thinner than that. It’s not even 7/32”. Screws would definitely pull out.


Wow, what a beautiful cabinet. I really like the bold side panel frames.


As far as your question, I'm extemely confused as to why 1/4" drawer height is important. Do you have certain size of doll house figurines you need to store?

Add some depth to the drawer bottoms and you are golden.

-Steve

Thanks Steve. The side frames are that wide because there will be a recessed door there making shallow side compartments to hang necklaces.

The loss of ¼ inch will reduce my drawer depth. I can probably get away with that loss, but it will be close. The shallow drawers were made to hold jewelry tray inserts. They are 1 3/8” high. You can see them here…… http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=9877&filter=jewelry%20box%20insert (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=9877&filter=jewelry%20box%20insert) I designed the drawer height and size around these trays. If the drawers are not deep enough, then rings on the little ring bar will hang up when the drawer is opened / closed.


I might be missing something - but why would you need both runners and slides? With properly sized runners, they could act as both runner + kicker, and ...voila.

I installed runners because they seamed like a good idea to keep the drawers from tipping down when opened. Even with the drawer attached to the undermount slide, it would still be tippy and if anyone pressed down on it, it would be damaged. Hence the runner plus slide idea.

What is a “kicker”??? If I use the runners for the drawer to slide on, what would I use to keep the drawer from being pulled out too far? I’m guessing they should not be pulled out further than ¾ or so or they’d just drop to the floor.

Using the runners as slides might be my best solution. Can you explain this technique a bit more?

[Kent A Bathurst]

I installed runners because they seamed like a good idea to keep the drawers from tipping down when opened. Even with the drawer attached to the undermount slide, it would still be tippy and if anyone pressed down on it, it would be damaged. Hence the runner plus slide idea.

What is a “kicker”??? If I use the runners for the drawer to slide on, what would I use to keep the drawer from being pulled out too far? I’m guessing they should not be pulled out further than ¾ or so or they’d just drop to the floor.

Using the runners as slides might be my best solution. Can you explain this technique a bit more?

Yeah - I can give that a shot - apologies for lack of brevity.

A "runner" is a piece of wood attached to the side of the carcass that the drawer slides on top of - that's what you have installed already. A "kicker" is the same type of thing, but above the drawer to keep the "nose" of the drawer from tipping down as you slide it out. The runner and the kicker need to extend slightly into the open space where the drawer sits, so that the drawer isn't grinding against your stretchers. The way you built your case, with the correct sizing, one piece of wood attached to the case sides will act as the runner for the drawer above it, and also as the kicker for the drawer below it. You don't want the drawer to grind on the stretcher, and you don't want it to bind between the runner and the kicker - keep seasonal movement in mind (don't know what your drawer sides are made of). To keep the drawer centered as it moves back-and-forth - couple ways to do this. Easiest is to have the runners and kickers rabbeted, providing a groove for the drawers to slide in. It is common to lightly plane the back half or so of the drawer (or the back of the rabbets) so that the "gap" or "space" is maybe 1/32 wider at the back of the case than at the front - easier to slide in, and the drawer self-aligns when you push it home. Little wax on the runners/kickers helps too.

Now then - how to keep the drawer from coming out too far - but still be able to remove the drawer when you want to - that gets into the arena of all kinds of clever tricks. The one that comes to mind for your design is to make a small piece of wood (lets say 3/4" wide x 1-1/2" tall x 1/2" thick). In the bottom half of this piece, cut an elongated hole (running vertically with the long dimension). Screw this to the the inside of the back of the drawer, with a roundhead screw + washer through the elongated hole. The idea is that when you slide it up, this piece of wood catches the stretcher at the front of the case. Maybe a small felt tab on the leading edge (prevent BANG-SLAM). If you need to remove the drawer, you just slide this stop down, it clears the stretcher, and you pull the drawer out. The 1/2" thick dimension can be changed, depending on where you want the drawer to stop on its way out of the case.

To keep the drawer aligned, you might use 2 of these - one toward each side of the drawer. To make it easy to pull the stop up + down, you might glue a very short piece of dowel into a hole in the bottom center of the stop. Or put a small screw into it. Whatever - you won't be taking the drawer out very often after the case is finished, so "really easy" generally doesn't worry me.

There are a lot of other ways to solve this drawer-stop problem, but in general I think you need to have most of these planned out before you assemble the case, because some of them affect the design of the case and/or drawers.

Then - your next question will/should be: OK, then how do I keep the drawer from going too far back into the case? Again - lotta tricks for this also. If your drawers overlap the stretchers, there is no issue. If your drawers are inset, you need something cute. One way is the drawer stop idea above, but with the stops attached to the inside of the stretchers - assuming the drawer fronts are the same thickness as the stretchers. If they are not, you can put a thin shim on either the inside of the drawer or on the inside of the stretcher to make the surfaces align. Felt pads to prevent "BANG-SLAM". Rather than a slide-up-and-down stop, consider a small chunk of wood with a screw through it into the back of the stretcher - it rotates about that screw. Rotate it up out of the way, pull the drawer forward, slide the back stops down, out comes the drawer. Of course - as you can see - the back stops could also be just a rotating piece of wood.

I enjoy the drawer stops issue - as you may have noted - the skin comes off that cat in a lot of different ways, and I'm not sure if I have ever used thesame method twice - certainly never the same way twice in a row. I should get in a 12-step program on that topic - I am always trying to invent something newer or cleverer or more bizarre. And - no one other than me ever knows what the heck is going on inside there, because I cannot recall a drawer ever actually needing to come out.

[Michael Drew]

Thank you for that excellent explanation Kent! It was very easily for me to follow and visualize. My default is to just use manufactured slides, so I just haven’t put much thought into making them. I can see how it would help to have this pre-planned as you mention. I’ll know better next time.

Thanks again.

I had another general question.

When y’all rout / cut the drawer bottom dado, is there a general rule of thumb for just how much wood to have under the dado on the drawer sides / front / back? And just how deep do you cut the dado? I usually just keep ¼” under the dado for small drawers and I’ll go more than that if it’s a drawer for some heavy stuff, but I’ve never really known what’s enough.

And while I’m at it, do you glue the bottom panel to both the pin and tail boards or leave it dry?

I use soft maple for my drawers, typically. I milled these 5/8” thick.

[Steve Griffin]

I often build 5/8" soft maple dovetailed drawers, and always leave 1/2" wood under the dado and make the dado 1/4" deep. Drawer bottom is put in after dovetails dry. (make sure it's not out of square while drying!). This is possible if you rip off the dado on the drawer box back. I usually just staple this edge and it works nicely with blum tandem slides.

Now, if you have undermount slides which mount to the drawer bottom, you may not need 1/2" space on the underside, especially for small drawers. In fact, you might even be able to skip the dado, and just inset the bottom in a 1/2" groove.

Lot's of ways to skin the cat, and just use your judgement and you will probably be ok.

-Steve