Table Saw Blade guard...loaded question warning!!!!

[Brian Fulkerson]

So, I own a fairly new JET table saw which includes an easily removable quick release blade guard. In its place, I have since purchased a low-profile (jet accesory) riving knife that never(except for Dado cuts) is removed. I have wondered if it would be smart to move back to the full blade guard/splitter system. My concern is that the guard would cause difficulty in "seeing" my cut line. Also, there is always concern that the guard will somehow het hung-up with the stock that I am feeding (especially thin strips).

Hence my question(s):
Who actually uses the full blade guard as opposed to just a splitter and featherboards?
If you use the blade guard, when if ever do you remove it?
Do you also use the ani-kickback knives?

Safety is always a huge concern for me, I just wonder if certain items cause more trouble than good.

...See, i told you this would be a loaded question!!!

Thanks,

Brian

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I use the guard whenever I can. If I can't use the guard, the riving knife goes on instead. I have never run the saw without one of them installed.

I bought an extra guard, one has the anti kickback pawls removed, so I can use it on those valuable sheet goods that you don't want those scratches on.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I use a guard for every cut that I can. I can see the blade just fine and in fact I don't tend to look at the blade when I am cutting. I watch the trapped piece as it is the one that could cause me damage. I can take off my guard and put it back on in a couple minutes. I generally cut all of my dado, rabbets etc that I can't use the guard on at once so it's not an issue to remove and reinstall.

[Jack Wilson]

I am sorry, I can't answer your question... out of fear. I am afraid that I would incur the wrath of everyone else here on the forum, so I plead the fifth.

[John Coloccia]

My blade guard has dust collection on it as well, and I use it whenever I can. Not sure why anyone would plead the 5th. If you don't want to use it, don't use it. I use it.

The original SawStop blade guard is awful, IMHO, and it was never on the saw. Just the riving knife. My SharkGuard is better and stays on whenever it can.

I have "kickback" pawls on mine, but I'm thinking of taking them off. I never really liked them, and sometimes it seems like they just get in the way.

My guard generally comes off when I'm making non-thru cuts, or when the piece is so small it can get trapped in the guard. Other than that, it doesn't seem to ever get in my way.

[Jack Wilson]

Oh well, I don't want to go around setting a poor example, but plainly spoken, no I don't use a guard. I have two full size table saws, and a portable contractor saw that I take to job sites, I have removed the blade gaurd off all of them. All the contractors that I know have the same bad habit.

[Brian Kent]

I always, 100% use a splitter.

I do not use a blade guard because I cannot see the cut.

My splitter is a micro-jig splitter so I don't use the pawls.

I think I will be much better off when I get a blade guard that does not flop around, hit the blade, crack, collect dust and impair my vision. I think either a shop made guard over (not around) the blade or one of the guard and dust collectors that is attached to the ceiling would me the best for me.

[Neil Brooks]

The RUMOR that I heard is that ... fairly recently ... all major manufacturers shared a patent for guards that required -- among whatever else -- that they be capable of removal/re-installation in something like 15 seconds.

My Bosch table saw has that sort of guard (two piece: guard, kickback pawls).

As I said in a current thread, I use both ... all the time. The only things I have to remove them for, so far, is my crosscut sleds and my tenoning jig.

If they weren't SO easy to remove/re-install ... who knows if I'd use them less frequently.

For ME, there's no downside. Others may feel differently.

[glenn bradley]

MJ Splitter and a dust guard hood. I use both whenever I can. There is no need to see the line when using a tablesaw. What. . . , if its not following the line, you're going to adjust!?! ;-)

My dust collector overarm cannot be used on cuts where the material isn't big enough for the hood to ride over as the cut is made. It is also generally, but not always, incompatible with the miter gauge, tenon jig and sleds.

Unlike riving knives, that follow the blade height and can be used for all cuts, my splitter is of a fixed height and angle. On the rare times that I am not cutting at 90* the factory splitter can be used or the material is clamped to my sled and no splitter is used.

The level of inconvenience in using a guard is directly proportional to your level of inconvenience in having ten fingers. I cannot think of a thing I need to do more conveniently, faster or easier enough to pay with a finger to do it. But, that's just me ;-)

[John Coloccia]

I always, 100% use a splitter.

I do not use a blade guard because I cannot see the cut.

My splitter is a micro-jig splitter so I don't use the pawls.

I think I will be much better off when I get a blade guard that does not flop around, hit the blade, crack, collect dust and impair my vision. I think either a shop made guard over (not around) the blade or one of the guard and dust collectors that is attached to the ceiling would me the best for me.

My problem with the stock SawStop guard is two fold:

1) there's a bump on the front that gets hung up on the wood, and that pushes the guard up, and sometimes over...which leads to

2) the guard is FLIMSY, and fits very tightly to the blade...so when #1 happens, it's easy for the guard to run into the blade.

I can't figure out how they were able to engineer everything else on the saw so superbly, but have such a lousy blade guard. And thus, guard came off. I WILL say that the SawStop guard has GREAT visibility. If it were just a little wider it would have been fine.

[Ryan Welch]

I always use the riving knife on my g0691 but, have yet to make a cut with the full guard installed

[Todd Franks]

My problem with the stock SawStop guard is two fold:

1) there's a bump on the front that gets hung up on the wood, and that pushes the guard up, and sometimes over...which leads to

2) the guard is FLIMSY, and fits very tightly to the blade...so when #1 happens, it's easy for the guard to run into the blade.

I can't figure out how they were able to engineer everything else on the saw so superbly, but have such a lousy blade guard. And thus, guard came off. I WILL say that the SawStop guard has GREAT visibility. If it were just a little wider it would have been fine.

John,

Which SS model you are referring to ICS, PCS, or CS? I haven't got my new PCS tuned up yet and was curious if this is something to watch for. I've saved my old wider homebrew overarm guard just in case I don't like the narrow PCS blade guard.

Thanks,
-Todd

[Richard Dragin]

My concern is that the guard would cause difficulty in "seeing" my cut line. Also, there is always concern that the guard will somehow het hung-up with the stock that I am feeding (especially thin strips).
Brian


Brian,
You don't need to see the cut line, you should be concentrating on keeping the wood tight to the fence. If you are cutting anything thinner than the guard allows of course you remove it or, find another way to cut it.

[Todd Franks]

Brian,

I almost always use a blade guard and splitter. Sometimes I also use featherboards. For narrow cuts I will use a GRR-Ripper, but I always feel like I'm naked in public whenever I use it, like I'm doing something wrong without the blade guard and splitter in place. The only other time the overarm guard and splitter aren't used are when using the cross-cut sled.

-Todd

[Brian Kent]

Glenn and Richard,

I am only talking about starting a cut. I want to make sure I start on that pencil line.

Brian

(Oh, wait, Richard was quoting a different "Brian")

[Jon Lanier]

I am sorry, I can't answer your question... out of fear. I am afraid that I would incur the wrath of everyone else here on the forum, so I plead the fifth.
+1 ;) I concur.

[Jon Todd]

I have the same Jet saw with the low profile riving Knife and I mever use the gaurd. I did just buy an excalibur Ceilingmount blade dust gaurd but thats mainly for the dust.

[Chad Stucke]

I generally don't use the guard but keep thinking I am going to make a good one.
I want to mount it from the celing so I can cut anything without removing it and make it easy to adjust.
I would like to incorporate a dust colector into it.
Has anyone else done this?
Chad

[Rod Sheridan]

I always use the guard...........Period.

If I can't perform an operation on the TS without removing the guard, then that tells me that the TS is the wrong machine for that operation, or I need to purchase or make a different guard for that operation.

I have an Excalibur overarm guard on the saw, along with a Merlin removable splitter.

I use the guard with my Jessem mitre gauge, and my home made sleds, no problem with either.

I can see the blade, for example when I'm trying to crosscut to a pencil line, however for ripping operations I'm looking at the back of the blade/end of fence area so I don't care about seeing the blade.

(The original guard on the General 650 is all metal, you can't see the blade since you don't need to. It really is cutting regardless of whether you're watching it.)

I know many people don't use a guard, however lets look at it this way. If you were at work and didn't use a guard, after a couple of reprimands, you'd be fired. I know, I fired people for those sort of safety offences when I was a manager.

Guards are there because we're human and occasionally do dumb things. Guards change the dumb occurrence from a life altering catastrophe, to an event that simply leaves your heart racing after you realize how close to being called "stumpy", you came.

Get in the habit of always using your guards. riving knives, splitters, jigs etc, it's a good habit to get into.

Regards, Rod.

[Richard Dragin]

Brian, I was quoting the other Brian.

BTW, I do have a Shark Guard and try to keep it on.

[Mike Cruz]

I suppose you could say that my guard specializes in dust collection....:rolleyes:

[John Coloccia]

John,

Which SS model you are referring to ICS, PCS, or CS? I haven't got my new PCS tuned up yet and was curious if this is something to watch for. I've saved my old wider homebrew overarm guard just in case I don't like the narrow PCS blade guard.

Thanks,
-Todd

The CS, but I think the other ones are the same guard. I haven't seen the new guard with the DC built in. Maybe they fixed it on that. The predominant problem is that stupid bump in the front that catches on wood and causes the whole guard to move backwards on the hinge instead of straight up and down. The bump seems like it's just molded into the guard. BLAH.

[Van Huskey]

What is the obsession with seeing the blade on a table saw? If I didn't trust my fence I would get another one. On crosscuts it either references the sled or clamp it to the miter gauge sighting it up with the saw off. As long as I can reference the blade without the saw on I could care less about seeing the blade when it is running. If the blade isn't where I expect it to be then my problems are MUCH worse than seeing the blade.

[johnny means]

I don't use a guard because I want to see when I amputate my finger.:D

Actually I use mine the vast majority of the time. I have the original Sawstop guard and have not had any problems with it.

[Bill Davis]

I am kind of with Jack on this - actually not kind of. I just do not use one. Here is my deranged reasoning.

1. Magazines frequently show sawing operations with the guards removed 'for clarity'. I definately want clarity when I use my 3hp, carbide tipped, 4000RPM potential bone whacker.

2. It's much easier to keep my eye on the cutting edge. I would rather have my eye on the cutting edge than BE on the cutting edge.

3. I'm lazy. I didn't/don't like taking it off and putting it back on. I have a rear extension table which though not making it impossible does make it more of a pain for a lazy guy. I dont like pain either!

4. I think it is safer. Wow! How could I say a stupid thing like that. Here is more convoluted reasoning. I see that blur of carbide and think it looks kind of soft and fuzzy. I like soft and fuzzy don't you? But I do stop and think 'Thats not soft and fuzzy. It's dangerous. I'd better be careful'. So with each cut, and even as long as the blade is turning, I keep my eye on it and the placement of my precious digits and do what is necessary to prevent disaster. So far it's worked. In other words the best safety device is not the guard or riving knife but your brain! DO NOT LET WELL INTENTIONED PROPORTED SAFETY DEVICES CAUSE COMPLACENCY SUCH THAT YOU TURN OFF THE MOST IMPORTANT SAFETY DEVICE - YOUR BRAIN. Sorry for shouting.

5. Guess I'm stupid or something. I'm sure a lot of you will think so. But I'm 66 and use my tools a lot and have all my fingers and never had a significant shop accident and usually wear flip-flops while working (OSHA certified ones) in the shop. Stupid maybe. But I turn my main safety tool on high when in the shop.

P.S. The guard is always hanging right there on the shop wall in case someone comes in to work with me who wants it.

[Kevin Womer]

I always use one of the thin kerf or full kerf riving knives unless dados are being cut that came with my SC. When I looked at the Jet you have I did not like they made you purchase a low profile knife, if it is a saftey assessory why wouldn't that be included with the saw? The basket guard that came with my saw attaches just like the the riving knives and follow the blade, but I just feel like I can't see when I make cuts so I don't put in on ever.

[John Harden]

My saw has dust collection built into the guard, which is attached to the riving knife. It works extremely well, so as a result, it is always on the saw. Its very rare that I remove it. When I do, it's a quick release knob that comes off in about 5 seconds.

It does not have pawls on it.

Pics below. This is the first table saw where I actually used the guard. Had a PM-66 for about 12 years and it was never put on because it was clunky, slow to remove and re-install, and in my opinion, unsafe and worse than using nothing.

Regards,

John

[John Seiffer]

15 years ago I cut my thumb on the table saw. It healed OK but the tip has has been numb since then. After that I always use the guard. Except when I'm using it to make a dado. My saw has a riving knife that's always attached and the guard has dust collection built in. I use a Shark Guard by Leeway http://www.leestyron.com/sharkguard.php

I'm also anal about unplugging it when I'm changing the settings or measuring near the blade.

I go by the principle foresight is better than no sight.

[Peter Quinn]

Lots of blade guard questions lately. It sure does make you think about what you do and don't do in the shop, and why, when you try to formulate an answer. I work in a professional shop full time, and I have my own small shop where I do my thing on the weekends. In the pro shop there are no guards, no splitters, no riving knives installed even on newer saws that came with them. Time is money I guess, and keeping these things in tune in a rough environment and pulling them on and off for the wide variety of cuts being made takes time, so they are out. The big machines like gang rip saws and straight line saws all have safeties, but the table saws have none. So you learn to pay attention and set things up properly. Not a single TS injury in a combined work experience of over 200 years in the shop. Just luck?

In my home shop I use a bies splitter for every cut that I can on a PM66. The stock guard was gone the first day, because it was junk. Too hard to remove and replace, and it hung up on every thing that went through it. Dangerous junk best avoided. If it worked, and went in/out easily, I would probably still be using it, but I don't miss it. I have considered adding an over arm guard, but more for dust control than safety. I don't always have the focus at home that I do at work, so honestly I work slower and take far more safety precautions there generally. I may add an over arm guard as part of an upcoming outfeed table overhaul.

I certainly would not encourage anyone to work without a guard. The whole idea of needing to "see the cut line" sounds like hogwash to me. It is not a BS for heavens sake, If you really want to remember where the blade is paint a red stripe the length of the saw table in the line of the blades cut. Or stick your finger in the blade and it will paint it for you! Second though, don't do that.:eek:

[David Helm]

I'm with Bill Davis on this one; the very best piece of safety equipment is the "engaged brain". Like Bill, I have been using table saws professionally for over 40 years (I'm 67) and strongly believe in starting the brain before pushing the start button on any piece of machinery. I also must admit that I don't use the guard. I am getting a new TS with riving knife and think I'll use that.

[John Thompson]

The only time I take the guard and splitter off is for non-though cuts. I do raise the gaurd for thin rips as it will interfere with the fence close to the blade but.. I still don't take the splitter off to do so nor remove the gaurd. Takes about 1 second to get it up and out of the way.

I use my stock equipment but modified. I replaced stock shield with a 3 wide one for better dust collection and attached so it would hinge back to 45 degrees out of the way on narrow rips. I use a spring-board left on all rips regardless of width and on narrow ones clamp a stop block to fence with Quik clamps for use as an over-head stop to keep the work from riding up.

I can see the blade clearly but.. with proper set-up there is no real need to do so. My spring-board keeps the stock registered tight to the fence so I just feed by hand until it reaches 8" of the blade and guard then pick up the push stick (I have many sizes and shapes made from scrap ply) to assist it the final 8".

Below is a picture of a wide rip.. a narrow rip.. a cross-cut and notice the slot I cut in the fence for the gaurd side to ride through without interference.. and my home-made modified guard splitter raised out of the way. BTW.. when I do take off the gaurd splitter for non throughs... it takes under 30 seconds as I replace the stock 5/16" hold down bolt for the splitter with a male 5 1/16" spring loaded quick release L handle as on the Shark Guard. Low cost.. high returns IMO!
Back to the shop... ya'll have a good en!

[Paul Atkins]

My saw is so piled high with junk there is no room for the guard. Actually, I have the pristeen 1950's J-line guard hanging up waiting for a photo op for OWWM.

[Brian Kent]

John Harden,

On your first picture, there is a small triangle above the big triangle. What is that for?

Brian

[Ray Newman]

I have the newer model Uni-guard with the older model disappearing splitter on my Uni-saw. Needed to buy a new Uni-guard as the old one was damaged during an interstate move. I bought the saw in 1987; the Uniguard shortly after. We have become good friends over the years.

I prefer the Uni-guard as it has a two piece basket type guard which will ride up over the work and still afford some protection.
The only time I don't use the splitter is for grooves/dadoes and cross cutting.

As for cross cutting, I utilize a 1000SE INCRA miter gauge with a wood sub fence that extend passed the blade approx. 5“. The arm extending passed the blade acts as a: (a) sweep to clear cut off from the blade, and (b) natural reference point to place the cut line of the work against the blade kerf in the sub fence.

The Uni-fence is set in the low position, which IMO affords more hand control of the work while still keeping the hand away from the blade. It took a bit of mental adjustment to become accustomed to a low fence, but it is used that way probably 95% + of the time. I found that the Uni-fence is rock solid and I don’t worry about needing to see the cut after it is adjusted in place.

[Leo Graywacz]

Brian,
You don't need to see the cut line, you should be concentrating on keeping the wood tight to the fence. If you are cutting anything thinner than the guard allows of course you remove it or, find another way to cut it.

You actually believe that? I am one of those who don't use a guard or a riving knife. The only kickbacks that I ever had were in my starting years and frankly, I deserved to get them because of what I was doing. I run a 3HP unisaw and I can tell when it is going to bind and the motor isn't strong enough that I can't hold the pc. Not saying the surprise kickbacks couldn't take me out. But after 20 years behind the saw there are few surprises left.

I concentrate on all parts of the cut. The blade, the kerf, the fence. All at the same time, they are only inches apart from each other.

If you feel the need to use the guards, please do. Safe is good.

[John Harden]

John Harden,

On your first picture, there is a small triangle above the big triangle. What is that for?

Brian

I have no idea what that's for, but it makes an excellent hook to hang it up on the blast gate those times I have to remove it.

[John Coloccia]

re: brain in the shop

Here's where these discussions get off track. Please don't assume that just because someone uses safety devices that they somehow leave their brain behind at the door. That's actually kind of insulting and knocks the discussion off track. If you know of a case where a safety device actually CAUSED an accident, then we'd all be interested in knowing how so we can avoid doing that, or avoid the device all together because it's not safe.

just my $.02.

[BOB OLINGER]

This subject is close to home. Just last Sun. morning while ripping some stock, I accidently brushed the thumb of my left hand accross the blade - result was a nastly circle cut in the fleshy part of my thumb requiring 6 stitches. I will lose some feeling in the tip of my thumb as a couple of nerves were cut and can't be reconstructed. This is the first accident of this degree in over 40 yrs., I consider myself a safe worker - so the comments relating to no accidents over a lot of years doesn't cut it. It only takes loss of concentration and spit second - it happens so fast. I'm thankful - the accident could have been much, much worse. I've never used a blade guard, splitter, other. However, realizing accidents are just that, I'm in the process of researching what blade guards and other options might be. I, too, like to watch the blade cutting. But I'd like to see all my finger parts intact and functional, also. I'm not sure what I'll end up with, but a word to those with no historical accidents - I didn't have any, either, but it can happen in a fraction of a second. Take care.

[Richard Dragin]

Leo, Which part of my post did you find unbelievable? I want to watch you rip a 24" piece so I can see how you watch the blade and the fence all at once.

John C., regarding use of brains, your post is right on.

[Leo Graywacz]

The fact that you don't believe you need to see the blade doing the cutting.

[John Coloccia]

I never checked, but I think my attention goes back and force from the fence to the blade. I'm not really looking at the blade cutting so much as I'm checking I'm not running my hand into it. Honestly, I think I'd be happier if the guard were completely opaque, and all I had to do was keep my hand away from the guard. As it is, the clear guard makes it a bit difficult to split my attention. When I glance over, I have to look for something to focus on. Does that make sense?

Maybe I'll take one of my old guards tonight and paint it, just to see if I like it. Somehow, I think it will reduce my workload a little bit. Maybe it'll make me uncomfortable and I'll hate it?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi John, sounds like a good experiment.

The guard on the General is all metal so you can't see anything, never bothered me one bit.

Once the fence is set, or the stop on the mitre gauge is set, the piece will be cut to the correct size.

Regards, Rod.

[Michael Dunn]

For the most part I have not used a guard or a splitter. However, I have been taking my shop MUCH more seriously. Safety and health have been my biggest concerns. So, I have started the safe and smart habit of using my blade guard.

I plan on making my own table inserts and installing splitters in all of them. I also plan on making a blade guard/overhead dust collector. Kind of like the one ptreeusa.com has. Except not $200!!!

shotgunn

[Richard Dragin]

Leo,
You are taking what I said to literal. Sure it's nice to be able to see the cut but it's not where you need to concentrate. Any visual obstruction of the guard is far out weighed by the added safety it provides, is my point.

What are you looking for at the blade that is of use?

[Tom Welch]

I'm in the camp that belives in using the guard. But to be honest, I don't always use the guard,(sometimes I fall off the wagon) but always use the riving knife unless I am cutting a dado. I only started using the guard / riving knife for about a year. It was not until I bought my new Jet tablesaw that came with the first working guard that I have seen. (also with the riving knife) With my 2 other table saws the guards were a joke, like many have commented on. I can understand how we all became jaded about using a guard with the poorly designed guards and splitters of yesteryear, but that is no excause today with so many good aftermarket guards and splitters out there. So now I take it one day at a time to use the guard.

[Brian Penning]

This subject is close to home. Just last Sun. morning while ripping some stock, I accidently brushed the thumb of my left hand accross the blade - result was a nastly circle cut in the fleshy part of my thumb requiring 6 stitches. I will lose some feeling in the tip of my thumb as a couple of nerves were cut and can't be reconstructed. This is the first accident of this degree in over 40 yrs., I consider myself a safe worker - so the comments relating to no accidents over a lot of years doesn't cut it. It only takes loss of concentration and spit second - it happens so fast. I'm thankful - the accident could have been much, much worse. I've never used a blade guard, splitter, other. However, realizing accidents are just that, I'm in the process of researching what blade guards and other options might be. I, too, like to watch the blade cutting. But I'd like to see all my finger parts intact and functional, also. I'm not sure what I'll end up with, but a word to those with no historical accidents - I didn't have any, either, but it can happen in a fraction of a second. Take care.

Show your partner the Sawstop video.

As for the SS guard, mine is still in it's original packaging.

[Dave Lewis]

Shark-guard. It provides safety and dust collection- with a cyclone.