New thoughts on cutting vinyl

[Randy Digby]

Niklas posted a site that had some good info on it - Thanks Niklas:

http://www.bostonlasers.com/materials/

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page, they talk laying vinyl down, laser cutting and then weeding. I wonder how they do it? Typical vinyl does not allow your to easily weed after applying to the substrate.

Do they put a heavy coat of application fluid down and work against time constraints to cut and weed? Any thoughts, or better yet, any actual experience doing this?

For this discussion, let's bypass the discussion of the hazards of cutting vinyl since that has been covered adequately in other posts and just explore the likely mechanics of the process.

[Scott Shepherd]

I read what they said, but I take a little issue with methods like that. The ShopBot folks also have someone that makes a tool for cutting vinyl on the shopbot. I say the same things about both. It's the wrong tool for the job and anyone with the right tool will take you to school in quality and performance.

[Rodne Gold]

The glues in vinyls are pressure sensitive - IE you need to use pressure to make it adhere properly with either a squeegee or a roller.
I often cut , apply lightly, weed and the "anchor" the vinyl with a roller. Its often easier to do it on the object than weed the vinyl and then apply , especially with fiddly stuff. Im talking using my vinyl cutter here and not the laser.
The issue with laser cutting vinyl and then weeding is that you dont get the same clean cut easy to weed cut a vinyl cutter gives and it's a LOT more difficult to weed on the carrier paper and if you didnt get that kiss cut spot on with a laser and carrier paper , you often cant weed it at all. when its already on a substrate it doesnt matter if the laser penetrates the substrate , if you perforate the carrier , all is lost,

[Dan Hintz]

I vaguely recall running through their site many months back and having a problem with their method on several items... the method either seemed implausible or impractical. YMMV...

[Larry Bratton]

As Rodney said, the trick with cutting the stuff without laying it down first is to keep from cutting through the carrier. I suspect if these folks are cutting it they are in fact putting it down wet, lasering it and then sqweegeeing (sp?) the water or ap fluid out.

[Randy Digby]

Larry, that's what it sounds like to me. I would think that any fluid that would allow for easy weeding would also allow for easy sliding of vinyl to the wrong location - unless they have developed a "trick". The application I'm interested in would require cutting reflective material - probably not the smartest thing to do with a laser anyway.

Oh well, you never know when someone will find a different (better) method to net the same end results. I'm glad someone decided to try engraving plastic and cutting wood with a laser back when and I'm sure it didn't go very well the first time.

Back to the vinyl cutter.

[Joe Pelonio]

As Rodney said, the trick with cutting the stuff without laying it down first is to keep from cutting through the carrier. I suspect if these folks are cutting it they are in fact putting it down wet, lasering it and then sqweegeeing (sp?) the water or ap fluid out.
Most people with a plotter have put in a new blade and failed to adjust it right the first time, cutting into the backing. When peeling the taped vinyl and the
backing paper tears apart it's a mess. Seems like laser cut would be that way every time. Different jobs require different tools, and if a person has a laser, adding a plotter is a significantly less expensive investment than the other way around!

[Richard Rumancik]

Way back I wanted to see if the laser could be used to make a vinyl/acrylic sign. As I do not have signmaking equipment I used a method probably similar to what they used. I cut the acrylic outline, then adhered the vinyl. I then vectored through the vinyl just slightly into the acrylic. Weeding wasn't all that bad; the biggest problems are the centers of the letters (the a, e, o, etc). I picked them out with dental tools. If it was done wet maybe it would be better - just try to get enough adhesion where you need it so the letters don't slide around but not so much that you can't easily pick off the bits. The large zones were no problem; once you got it started you can pull it up. It's the disconnected parts that cause problems in weeding.

Now I realize that dedicated signmaking equipment may be better in many respects - but keep in mind that this method CAN work with minimal extra equipment. With a vinyl cutter, you need to weed, apply transfer tape, then get it aligned to the substrate and (hopefully) get a good transfer. Achieving a good transfer takes some practice.

I did not try to perfect the method as I did not pursue the market, but for low volume I think it is a viable alternative and could be considered. If I did it again I would seriously look at using application fluid to make the weeding a bit easier. Then you can apply pressure to the parts that "stay" and release the remainder much easier.

[Randy Digby]

Richard, I'm sure that the answer lies in application fluid. I don't keep fluid anymore. I guess we all start out with fluid, go to water only and soon we are able to apply without any liquid aid. The main reason the process caught my attention is that I have discontinued most of the products that use vinyl, but the room the cutter takes up is still the same. I've got a new piece of equipment coming Monday and need to free up a little space - but, the cutter does have wheels.

I wish every piece of equipment I purchased had the same ROI as the cutter. It sure has paid for a lot of Dr. Peppers!

Guess we'll let this one die unless you've got some good stuff to add.

Thanks for your comments.

[Rodne Gold]

The answer does not lie in application fluid , just do not squeegee or roller on when applying the sheet prior to lasering- the vinyl will be easy to weed then , it only becomes very difficult when you have rollered it on after weeding , the glues are pressure sensitive.
Wet applications prior and during lasering might work on rough surfaces , but you will never come right on acrylic or the like as it will slide around big time.
Albeit I have a great vinyl cutter , I still use our lasers to cut vinyl and polyesters applied to substrates and weed after. Kiss cutting on a carrier isnt a problem either - if you can do laserlites self adhesive stuff you can do vinyl , but of course as joe says , you can mess it up. I kiss cut a lot of stuff like self adhesive felt , self adhesive foams , double sided tapes , self adhesive paper , polyester digitally printed inkjet labels etc etc. some stuff you cant get in a cutter or line up in a cutter and some stuff is too small for any cutter.

[Randy Digby]

Good info Rodney. I only do vinyl for a couple of products now and they are small, flat and will fit in the laser. I'll have to give it a try next time I make a run of those items.

[Larry Bratton]

Randy:
Reflective, at least the one's I have used, have a super tacky adhesive. Also, the ones I use mostly are made by Tape Technologies and are NOT vinyl. They are either acrylic or polyester. I make acrylic letters with reflective tape on them all the time. We apply the reflective to the acrylic sheet, then cut out the letters. Here is a sign that has letters on it made with this method.

[Liesl Dexheimer]

I'm a little confused, I thought you weren't supposed to cut vinyl on a laser. I know it specifically states that in the Epilog's manual. Isn't it bad for your health and for the laser itself? Can someone please explain this to me?...

[Larry Bratton]

Most people with a plotter have put in a new blade and failed to adjust it right the first time, cutting into the backing. When peeling the taped vinyl and the
backing paper tears apart it's a mess. Seems like laser cut would be that way every time. Different jobs require different tools, and if a person has a laser, adding a plotter is a significantly less expensive investment than the other way around!
Joe, I meant with the laser. I have a plotter and have cut a good bit of vinyl over the years, but I, like others, like the idea of being able to use their laser for this process. Unfortunately, as Scott has stated, it's just not the best tool for the job.

[Larry Bratton]

I'm a little confused, I thought you weren't supposed to cut vinyl on a laser. I know it specifically states that in the Epilog's manual. Isn't it bad for your health and for the laser itself? Can someone please explain this to me?...
Liesl:
Technically, you should avoid it. I think though that it is the general opinion that small, kiss cut quantities are not detrimental. I don't think that rastering would be acceptable at all (not that there would be a need for such). Same applies to PVC sheet. I use my laser to very lightly vector mark sign layouts on PVC before putting on acrylic letters. I run that at like 5% power and 100 speed. I do have a very good exhaust system and have never had a problem with this process.

[Viktor Voroncov]

Liesl - here what you will have if you will work a lot with PVC :(
It was Mercury 25/ Pinnacle :(

[Joe Pelonio]

Liesl - here what you will have if you will work a lot with PVC :(
It was Mercury 25/ Pinnacle :(
Thanks for posting that. I once saw an Epilog that had been used to cut one job with 1/8" PVC sheet, looked worse than that, but I didn't have a camera. The guy said he thought "just one job can't hurt."

[Liesl Dexheimer]

Liesl - here what you will have if you will work a lot with PVC :(
It was Mercury 25/ Pinnacle :(

Whoa! Thanks for posting those photos. I never really wanted to find out in the first place. I'm definitely glad I never attempted that.

[Dee Gallo]

Wow, Viktor, now THAT should be a stickie or on the new wiki for all to see!

Thanks for posting, dee

[Larry Bratton]

Wow, Viktor, now THAT should be a stickie or on the new wiki for all to see!

Thanks for posting, dee
Definitely. I would NEVER cut or raster PVC sheet. Nasty stuff. The very light marking that I do is on painted sheet (acrylic paint). I'm marking the paint more than the sheet itself. Looks like a lot of cutting was what had been going on with what Viktor posted.

[Rodne Gold]

That pic is never the result of occasional kiss cutting of sign vinyl so lets not get TOO hysterical :)
Anyway , as per the original post:
"For this discussion, let's bypass the discussion of the hazards of cutting vinyl since that has been covered adequately in other posts"

[Larry Bratton]

That pic is never the result of occasional kiss cutting of sign vinyl so lets not get TOO hysterical :)
Anyway , as per the original post:
"For this discussion, let's bypass the discussion of the hazards of cutting vinyl since that has been covered adequately in other posts"
Not to beat the horse much more, but since we're on the subject,wonder how much PVC is actually in what we refer to as sign vinyl? I suspect the amount is a lot lower that we perceive it to be. Right or wrong?

[Rodne Gold]

There is a lot of PVC in it , however the good stuff is REAL thin and taking into account its thickness and the kerf width when kiss cutting , the amount vaporised by the laser is minute as is the Clorine gas released.
The gasses have to combine with water vapour to form Hydrochloric acid , so if you have a good evacuation system the chances of damage doing this are virtually nil.

[Joe Pelonio]

Not to beat the horse much more, but since we're on the subject,wonder how much PVC is actually in what we refer to as sign vinyl? I suspect the amount is a lot lower that we perceive it to be. Right or wrong?
We really should stop talking about this as the poster asked, but I did do the research once and looked at both the MSDS and spoke to technicians at major manufacturers. The 2 mil "premium" has far less, and of the brands, Arlon had the least in it. That was 3 years ago, so formulation may have changed since. My investigation was related to coating black 1/4" acrylic with colored vinyl and transfer tape so that when cut the result was brightly colored letters with black edges, no painting, and it did work fine with no ill effects.

[Viktor Voroncov]

1) Story was following. Customer cut 3 mm PVC 3 days/24 hours because his router was broken but he must finish big project which was priced over $100 000. After three days of cutting laser looks not so bad, but within next week it was very fast covered by rust and all rubber parts just became sand.
2) There is a lot of cheap materials from China now. Many of Chinese manufacturers said that their products do not contain PVC. But
- one customer buy product described by manufacturer as ACRYLIC GLASS and after 2-3 weeks of cutting all laser was in rust.
- I just got samples of LASER PLASTIC from China, start test and understood that this plastic contain a lot of PVC
3) So idea of pictures was TRUST BUT VERIFY (R. Reagan). Test carefully each material before lasering.
4) Really I do vinyl kiss/cut on laser sometimes. Always open both doors on laser and put ventilators :)

[Larry Bratton]

Well Viktor, I suspect I would have made the same decision on a $100k order. I could buy me a new machine if the worst case senario occurred..which it apparently did. I've found that most times in business you don't make any money unless you take some chances.