Pull or push a radial arm saw?

[Brian Marks]

I can't seem to find an answer to this...

The instruction manual for my Makita sliding compound miter saw states that I should first pull the saw back and then push the saw through the wood, and this seems to be consistent with the operating instructions for other SCMS.

However, I've been watching Norm on the New Yankee Workshop, and when he uses his radial arm saw, he pulls the saw through the wood. And most of my internet searches confirm that pulling is the proper method for RAS.

So the question is, why would the two techniques be different? The RAS and SCMS are basically the same as far as the rotation of the blade relative to the fence and wood. Why should you push one and pull the other?

Thanks.

[Darnell Hagen]

The SCMS has a hinged head. Pulling the saw can allow it to ride up on the workpiece and take a run at you.

[glenn bradley]

Right. Different tools, different procedure. Pull the RAS, push the SCMS.

[Jerome Hanby]

I had some guy try to demo one of the Dewalt RASs I bought by pulling the blade out, pushing the material behind the blade, and trying to push it back to cut. Scared the willies out of me. I think half the reason I bought it is so he couldn't kill himself with it :eek:

[joseph j shields]

I know this will start a war:D:D:D:D but...

I had a RAS for many years and always pushed the saw through the cut. (BTW-if you do push.... you can set the fence back further and get about 2-3" additional cutting capacity)

I started the traditional way of pulling, but I meet an old-time woodworker from Europe and he said they usually push the saw through the wood in the old country. (I have not be able to verify this) So I tried it and found I had much better control by pushing.

I never had a problem and my saw always stayed true.

The problem with pulling the saw is the saw will climb and you have less control. In addition, the climbing is often what pushes you saw out of alignment.

The way I view it is if pull your saw... it would be like pushing your wood backwards through a table saw. The wood is moving in the same relative direction as the blade... not a good situation.

YMMV:D:D:D

-jj

[Scott Vantine]

I use an older Craftsman RAS that in the instructions tells you to push the blade through the material, NOT to pull it through!

[Jamie Buxton]

Climb cutting scares me. A catch or a pinch is going to kick the saw toward me. If I owned a RAS, I'd push it.

[Loren Hedahl]

For cross cutting narrow board, the limit being about 6 inches, I pull it through. I always use a blade designed for cross cutting, with a hook angle around 4 to 5 degrees and keep it sharp.

For cutting wider stock or plywood, I like to mark my cut line with a pencil then score the wood fibers along the line with a sharp knife. Using a fresh fence and a push cut you can be extremely accurate over the widest cut, since you can see before you cut exactly where the blade will enter, then exit the cut.

So, pull is OK for narrow stuff, but push is better for wide. If I had to settle on only one type it would be push.

[Jerome Hanby]

I had a RAS for many years and always pushed the saw through the cut. (BTW-if you do push.... you can set the fence back further and get about 2-3" additional cutting capacity)

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but wouldn't you lose the same 2-3" off the front?

[Richard M. Wolfe]

Cut with the rotation of the blade into the wood. All radial arm and miter saws I've used took a push cut.

[Jeff Duncan]

I cut on the pull stroke, in the overall scheme of things much safer when you think about it.
On the pull even if the saw grabs and comes at you it's not going to jump off the machine and get you. In fact on smaller saws like the ever popular Craftsmans' the worst case scenario is the blade will jamb in the cut. I also use a sharp blade designed for the RAS which minimizes grabbing.
Now if your pushing you first pull the saw out then carefully slide your workpiece behind the blade, losing BTW a lot of your depth of cut, turn on your machine and make the cut, now wait for the blade to stop, slide the next piece behind, turn the saw on.....your not sliding it back while it's running are you:eek: Yeah a lot of extra wasted time for what I would consider a less safe procedure. B/C you know your going to get tired of waiting at every cut and your going to end up feeding the board behind while it's running.
At the end of the day do whatever you feel comfortable with, but it's always on the pull stroke for me.
good luck,
JeffD

[Glenn Vaughn]

On my Craftsman RAS the rotation of the blade is the front is down and the back up. Pulling the saw will have the teeth pusing the wood towards the work surface - pusing the saw will have the teeth trying to lift the wood off of the work surface. It seems to me that pulling is safer than pushing. I imagine the same is true of SCMS as well (I don't have an SCMS).

On the RAS The blade will not be able to actually climb unless the arm breaks.

I have not been able to find a craftsan manual that says to push through the work insteade of pull.

[Chip Lindley]

Concerning the RAS Only (nada SCMS) cutting on the pull-stroke returns the blade to a theoretically safe position behind the fence after each cut. I find it unnerving to extend the blade on the arm for a push-stroke and insert the stock behind the powered blade. What If...??? Nobody starts/stops their RAS between redundant cuts! (or do they?)

The physics of an RAS and TS are, in fact, opposites.Think about it. RAS stock can and will be lifted up and kicked backward on the PUSH stroke. The worst that can happen on the PULL stroke would be for the blade to literally climb-cut the stock and jam to a stop! (under-powered 10" RASs) Bigger, more powerful RASs may actually keep cutting forward toward the operator if out-of-control. Control is the key. The operator controls the saw; the saw does not control the operator!

Using too coarse a blade on an RAS is inviting disaster. Negative hook blades are encouraged.

[Van Huskey]

I always puch on a SCMS and pull on a RAS. The trick with the RAS is don't let it get outta control, be ready for it to try to climb out of the board.

[Dale Oakes]

When I use SCMS I pull through only cutting in about an 1/8" to 1/4" into the top of the pc and push the saw back through to cut off. Seem to leave a good splinter free cut on the face and less chance of pinching or binding during cutoff. My 2-cents

[Ron Jones near Indy]

My first real WWing experience was in 1957 when I helped (gopher) my dad make kitchen cabinets. He bought a nice used Craftsman RAS and still uses it today (he will be 90 next month). The book with it said pull, never push. I have taught WWing for all or a part of the last 42 years. I don't ever remember seeing a WWing text, a manual or anything from a well respected publisher show that pushing is proper--the ALL say pull. For about 32 of those 42 years there has been a RAS in the shop. We always pulled--never had an accident. For that I am most thankful.

[Peter Quinn]

I suppose with a RAS and a good negative hook blade it works either way. Push, pull, just keep your hands out of the path of the blade and feed slowly. A RAS can handle the climb cut given its mass and the fact that everything else is fixed except the head. I can remember framing a house as a kid with my family, and one uncle that worked as a machinist refused to use the RAS on the pull because it was unsafe. Of course he had a cigar in one hand and a beer in the other, so you can imagine how high on his list safety was.

With a SCMS, always pull forward all the way, lower the head and push into the stock. And make sure the stock will not pinch the blade. Man, they have enough power to buck like a bronco. You may think they are safer than a RAS till yours does this.

[Larry Edgerton]

When I use SCMS I pull through only cutting in about an 1/8" to 1/4" into the top of the pc and push the saw back through to cut off. Seem to leave a good splinter free cut on the face and less chance of pinching or binding during cutoff. My 2-cents

Ditto. This is my prefered method.

On the RAS the only time I push is when using a dado. I find the dado blade wants to come at you too much so I clamp the piece and push.

[Lee Schierer]

The RAS will cut cleaner if you pull the blade into the cut. Pushing the blade back into the cut will significantly increase the splintering and tear out on the upper surface.

The correct method is to lead the saw into the cut while resisting the tendency for the blade to pull into the cut. Higher tooth count blades with negative hook angles are generally recommended for RAS use.

I own a RAS and it rarely gets used because I get superior quality cuts on my TS.

[Phillip Gregory]

Sorry for the thread necro but since I came across this thread, I felt compelled to mention a few things.

1. Radial arm saws are always pulled through the cut. Yes, that is a climb cut but with a proper zero hook or negative hook blade and a well adjusted/aligned and stable saw, it has little to no tendency to climb due to the blade geometry. Proper bearing preload will require a small effort (5-7 lbs) to pull the saw ahead in the arm, a zero or negative hook blade will not self feed, and proper alignment will essentially eliminate the tendency of the kerf to pinch behind the saw, and if all else fails, you are supposed to keep yourself out of the line of the blade as with any other saw out there and the saw carriage will reach the end of the arm and be stopped by the end of the arm. The kerf closing on a crosscut on a well adjusted saw of any type is uncommon as long as nothing such as a rip fence manages to catch the offcut and pinch it into the back of the blade. You are cutting across the grain, the grain is running the wrong direction to close up on you such as it can and does in a rip cut.

2. Pushing a RAS will cause the teeth at the back of the blade which are rising upwards to exert a force that will try to lift the workpiece off of the table and over the rear fence. Pulling the RAS will cause a downward force to be exerted by the teeth of the blade. I've seen people push a RAS and this is exactly what happens, especially with a high hook angle tablesaw blade. Piece gets caught and thrown back into the wall. Makes a very ugly noise and sometimes bangs up somebody's hand.

3. The issues with RASes trying to climb are due to using a positive hook angle blade (especially a typical +15 or +20 degree tablesaw blade) and having a saw where the arm is not perpendicular to the fence and the blade is not perpendicular to the table.

4. The most common saw in my experience (I work in the medical profession) to cause injury is the chainsaw. Having 16+ inches of completely unguarded chain cutting unknown wood, often while the limb is still up in the air, is potentially very dangerous. The next most common piece of woodcutting/woodworking equipment to cause problems is actually the jointer. People don't think it is a dangerous piece of equipment because it's not a saw. The knives or inserts dull and instead of sharpening/changing them, they increase feed pressure. Their paddles, if they ever used them, slip so they feed by hand and hook their right pinky over the back of the board for more force. Their pinky gets "jointed" as they pass the end of the board over the cutterhead. There was a large cooperage mill where I used to live and there were quite a few folks who were missing the end of their right pinky finger, if not the entire finger, after jointing staves improperly. The number of guys who cut fingers off with a tablesaw paled in comparison to the number of guys who jointed their pinkies.

[Wayne Lomman]

I 100% agree. Well said. Interesting that the chainsaw is the commonest source of injury. Many years back when I had cause to be talking to a surgeon for the wrong reasons, he had found that the mitre saw was keeping him in a job. This was in the period not long after they first became available as a building site tool. Cheers

[Kurt Kintner]

My only experience with a RAS is my old Craftsman ....
My manual says "pull" ....
Always pull thru the stock using a negative hook blade ....
As far as it "climbing" ?? That's impossible, as the saw would
have to bend the post to do that, as another contributor mentioned ....
I expect mine would just stall if fed too fast....
Another reason to "pull" is the dust gets directed to the back
of the machine... I have a Big Gulp behind mine with a 4 inch
dust collector hose attached ...
I wouldn't be without this machine.... I do all my crosscuts with it.
I've never crosscut stock on my table saw .... The miter gauge
is in a drawer someplace...

[Robert Willing]

I have since sold my late 90's Craftsman RAS and it had an anti climb control so pull was the technique. You had 3 choices for controlling the speed of the cut.

[Keith Weber]

The SCMS has a hinged head. Pulling the saw can allow it to ride up on the workpiece and take a run at you.

I have two short fingers that say a RAS can also take a run at you even without the hinged head.

[Ed McEowen]

I did almost all of my early woodworking on a Montgomery Ward RAS. They supplied a rather coarse, positive angle blade with the new saw. I always pushed because it just worked better and caused fewer accidents. I later acquired a Craftsman with a negative hook blade and found it possible to follow the instructions, although it still wants to climb if I'm not careful.

[Phillip Gregory]

Every manual I have seen from any manufacturer- (Sears, OMGA, Original Saw Co., old DeWalt manuals) all say the saw should be pulled. I would especially trust the Original Saw Co. manuals as they are an America-based maker of currently-produced larger saws that are generally designed to be used in commercial/industrial settings and thus sell to firms that are very cognizant of OSHA, their workers' comp carrier, and the local ambulance chasers. If they said something obviously incorrect in their official manual, they would be very quickly put out of business by lawsuits and lack of sales from firms that followed the official literature and got shut down/charged ridiculous premiums for worker's comp/sued into oblivion by the ambulance chasers.

[Bradley Gray]

Thank you Phillip. I have many years in pulling on big RAS's. I am surprised how many folks push.

I worked in a lumber mill while in high school. The 18" saw would run constantly while we cut 300 12 ft boards in half or whatever while loading them on the truck. If we were to shut off the saw and wait for the blade to stop between cuts and then thread each board behind the blade we would have been looking for new jobs by the end of the day.

[Phillip Gregory]

I attribute the "push" to people who grew up using other pieces of equipment. You always push stock into the rotation of the blade with a tablesaw, period. You push stock into the rotation of the cutterhead with a router or shaper, with very few specific exceptions, for which you take much care. Ditto with a joiner and a planer. Also, the SCMS came after the RAS and it is appropriately a "push into the stock" saw as well.

I recently acquired a big old 7 1/2 hp medium arm DeWalt GE which can swing either a 16" or 20" blade depending on guard, mine has the 16" guard and a 16" blade. I've used a couple of 1970s and 1980s era Craftsman saws in the past and had been instructed to both pull and push in the past depending on who was telling me how to operate the RAS when I was younger. Pull is clearly the proper way to do it and even with what were most certainly significantly positive-hook blades (what else did you have in the 1980s and early 1990s?), never had issues with pulling the saw. I did manage to shoot a workpiece into the wall pushing the saw when I was a kid, and that was a "see, these are bad, use the tablesaw" moment. (Now I have a relatively decent cabinet saw and like it a lot, but it isn't the perfect tool for everything, hence I bought a RAS.) I had never operated a saw as big as the GE I am rehabbing although the old Central Hardware lumberyard my Dad and I went to when I was a kid had a giant old round arm DeWalt, which was either a GA or GE by the size of it. The saw was very close to the checkout and it always drew my attention to it when it ran, and the Pimply-Faced Youth operating the saw always pulled the saw. It would have been very neat if that was the saw I bought, but mine apparently came from a Payless Cashways in or near Kansas City according to the previous owner. Wrong defunct lumberyard from the wrong side of the state, but neat nonetheless.

It is interesting that the main "push" proponent thought I was not too swift to get the GE as in his opinion RASes are extremely dangerous, while a major "pull" proponent thought it was pretty darned neat and that he'd get one too if he was young enough to wrestle an 800 pound saw down into his non-walkout basement shop. For the record, my GE with the 16" blade takes about 2 1/2 minutes to spin down.

[Roy Turbett]

I use an older Craftsman RAS that in the instructions tells you to push the blade through the material, NOT to pull it through!

What year is your saw? Sears started selling DeWalt saws in the late 50's and all the DeWalt manuals I've read say to pull cut. My 1979 Craftsman manual also said to pull cut.

[Roy Turbett]

For the record, my GE with the 16" blade takes about 2 1/2 minutes to spin down.

The blade spinning for that length of time often indicates that the motor bearings are dry and need replacement. I've had to do bearing replacements on three 50's vintage DeWalts that I restored. There are a number of posts at OWWM.org that show how to do it.

[Roy Turbett]

Climb cutting scares me. A catch or a pinch is going to kick the saw toward me. If I owned a RAS, I'd push it.

Climb cutting is usually a result of slop in the carriage bearings or column, or the table sloping from back to front. A well tuned RAS doesn't have this problem.

[Warren Lake]

if you are using the saw properly your arm is straight to the shoulder and you have alot of strength technically its climbing but with a straight arm not bent if it starts to you are holding it back into an area with no material behind it to grab so you are stopping it from feeding forward

I worked for an old navy guy for a bit he always used it backward first saw him cutting aluminum on it. I pulled but also tried it the other way around a number of times no issues with that guess cause of the blade that was in it and the blade tendency was not to lift up as much as it could as the blade was only 1/8" into the table. I would go with pull I think his push thing developed from cutting aluminum., Lots of fingers were gone but from the table saw because he thought he could do anything never trained and he was a drunk.

Pull it towards you keep your arm straight to the shoulder if it catches to come to you hold it back easily and no material to grab. if your elbow is bent you dont have the same strength ive never seen anyone say how to use the thing straight arm to the shoulder, no manuals anyway but sure its out there

[Cary Falk]

My RAS climbed so bad that even though I was pushing it was a pull cut.:D JK

[Phillip Gregory]

That is going to be one of the next things I do. Fortunately bearings for that saw are common and inexpensive.

[Myk Rian]

Pull it. Some say push. Ignore them.

[Jerome Stanek]

I push through aluminum and pull through wood

[Phillip Gregory]

I opened the motor up and the arbor end bearing had been replaced as I don't think DeWalt used a Japanese NTN bearing in the 1950s. The bell end bearing was an original New Departure unit though. I replaced both and the saw now takes about 40 seconds to spin down.

[jack duren]

Climb cutting is usually a result of slop in the carriage bearings or column, or the table sloping from back to front. A well tuned RAS doesn't have this problem.

They all have this problem.

[Phillip Gregory]

They all have this problem.

No.

- You can adjust a table to be flat with no slope using no more than the "bottom" tooth on the blade or a steel ruler clamped in the arbor washers. Yes, it's fiddly, but it's no less fiddly to get a cabinet saw's top, trunion, and rip fence squared up the first time.

- A quality saw in decent repair won't have slop in the carriage bearings or column. Cheap garbage will go out of adjustment as soon as you look at it the second time, and worn out/poorly maintained equipment will have slop as well. That is true for all equipment be it a RAS, a tablesaw, a bandsaw, a chop saw, a circular saw, or any other tool.

[jack duren]

No.

- You can adjust a table to be flat with no slope using no more than the "bottom" tooth on the blade or a steel ruler clamped in the arbor washers. Yes, it's fiddly, but it's no less fiddly to get a cabinet saw's top, trunion, and rip fence squared up the first time.

- A quality saw in decent repair won't have slop in the carriage bearings or column. Cheap garbage will go out of adjustment as soon as you look at it the second time, and worn out/poorly maintained equipment will have slop as well. That is true for all equipment be it a RAS, a tablesaw, a bandsaw, a chop saw, a circular saw, or any other tool.

Yes they do. Mine is in perfect shape but it can be a pit bull if I'm not paying attention....

[Rich Riddle]

My wife really likes the guys who push a radial arm saw. Of course she works in an operating room and they pay some of our bills. She also says you should stop before the "one last cut" includes anatomical parts. But hey, if it generates money forego safety. Always pull if you are wanting to be safe.

[Phillip Gregory]

Yes they do. Mine is in perfect shape but it can be a pit bull if I'm not paying attention....

What saw and blade do you have?

[Erik Christensen]

I pull my RAS but for SCMS I use a 'hybrid' technique I saw a finish guy use (he was pretty good).

He did a light scoring cut on the pull stoke to eliminate tear-out on the top surface - plunged then pushed to complete the cut.

works pretty slick and takes no additional effort - give it a try :)

[Ray Selinger]

RAS are generally under powered, so the blade thickness and tooth geometry play an important part in your safety. Dewalt recommended pulling with your left hand and holding with your right hand. I've been a sawyer on large construction sites, so I have some experience with RAS. I also can order 10 beer at a time.

[jack duren]

What saw and blade do you have?

Why??????????????

[Phillip Gregory]

Why??????????????

A thin sheet-metal framed saw with a positive hook blade will climb like crazy while a big old piece of "arn" saw with a negative hook blade won't unless something really went wrong.

[Mark Ashmeade]

There are RAS's and RAS's. I used to have a RIDGID unit, same as the contemporary Craftsman saw. It was prone to climb over the cut. I didn't like it, and after it shot towards me one last time, it went away. Eventually I got a Delta Longarm 33-411. Completely different class of saw. Entirely cast iron, 5HP motor. I have had no issues with it at all, but the lesson of the RIDGID sticks with me. Not a bad thing, if this beast got me, it might be fatal vs a nasty injury with the smaller saw.

This thing would be capable of crosscutting railroad ties, but I'm not sure I want to go there!

[jack duren]

A thin sheet-metal framed saw with a positive hook blade will climb like crazy while a big old piece of "arn" saw with a negative hook blade won't unless something really went wrong.

I have two Delta 12" 33-890's................

[Warren Lake]

ive always thought that name was kinda hilarious Never even stopped to look at their tools, backs up my thought when you said that it was prone to climb over the cut.

[Ken Combs]

I have two Delta 12" 33-890's................
Jack, I used to have a 33-890. Nice saw. I now have an 80s Dewalt home shop, cast iron arm. I can almost guarantee that a blade change will change your mind.

I put a new neg hook blade on mine a few weeks ago. Absolutely no self feed tendency now.

Also used to have a 14" 3hp Delta turret saw. For that thing no neg hook blades were available so I used the original steel framers blades. In hard woods it would self feed and stall, but never climbed over like some lighter saws will with the wrong blade.

On a side note, I'm amazed that this old thread still draws interest!!

[Joe Jensen]

Never us a RAS with a positive (Table saw) blade. Always a negative or zero degree hook angle blade. With a positive hook angle blade the blade will be trying to pull the wood up off the table and into the blade where excitement will ensue. With a negative hook angle blade when you pull cut with a RAS the blade will push the wood down and back against the table and fence.

[jack duren]

Jack, I used to have a 33-890. Nice saw. I now have an 80s Dewalt home shop, cast iron arm. I can almost guarantee that a blade change will change your mind.

I put a new neg hook blade on mine a few weeks ago. Absolutely no self feed tendency now.

Also used to have a 14" 3hp Delta turret saw. For that thing no neg hook blades were available so I used the original steel framers blades. In hard woods it would self feed and stall, but never climbed over like some lighter saws will with the wrong blade.

On a side note, I'm amazed that this old thread still draws interest!!

I only run negative hook.

With 33 years working as a woodworker for a living you will see things that seem impossible but will happen. Can't or won't don't exist in my woodworking career....These words are as catchy to me as "free"....

[Charlie Velasquez]

Yes they do. Mine is in perfect shape but it can be a pit bull if I'm not paying attention....No, they don't. My saw, a Dewalt 7790, does not, even on 4x material (not a through cut).

Carl Kunkel, son of Wally Kunkel, wanted to dispel that myth.
Carl Kunkel with a properly tuned Dewalt GWI and a sharp Mr. Sawdust blade (Forest WWI, with TCP "Triple Chip profile" has a low 5 deg. positive hook angle- a special order from Forest)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUnZpUDvzgs

He is using just a couple of fingers to move the carriage, then slows and releases his finger mid-cut. Please, realize this is not the preferred method of operation.

[jack duren]

Pull it fast enough and see if it still doesn't....

[Tom Ewell]

Poor technique using any tool is reason for failure or unexpected results.

[jack duren]

As I said can't and won't don't exist.....

[Charlie Velasquez]

Pull it fast enough and see if it still doesn't....????
Aha... that certainly sheds some light. If this is how you use your saw, I can see why it might climb.
You may be better off with a chop saw.

[jack duren]

????
Aha... that certainly sheds some light. If this is how you use your saw, I can see why it might climb.
You may be better off with a chop saw.

Have issues do we.....348239

[phil harold]

Carl Kunkel, son of Wally Kunkel, wanted to dispel that myth.
Carl Kunkel with a properly tuned Dewalt GWI and a sharp Mr. Sawdust blade (Forest WWI, with TCP "Triple Chip profile" has a low 5 deg. positive hook angle- a special order from Forest)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUnZpUDvzgs
.
My 12" Dewalt does that
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=237448&d=1335790479