Workbench critique

[Clint Barden]

Hey guys,

I would like some feedback on this layout for the top of my workbench. I apoligize in advance for the very crudely drawn image, but I think it will convey my design.

The top is inspired by the popular woodworking 21st century bench, but I only use one tool tray.

Overall dimensions are appx 28" x 70"

I plan to put a steel vise on both corners, to allow clamping wide panels. I'm thinking a nice Jorgensen on the front side, and a cheaper one down the road on the far side.

The top will be made from 4/4 poplar. The stack of lumber I have to use is 1" x 5.5", so the main portion of the top will wind up being 2 3/8 - 2 1/2" thick. The aprons and endcaps will be 4 1/2" thick/wide. aprons are 2 boards (1 1/2" thick), endcaps are 4 boards (3" thick).

The base will be a normal trestle base of 16/4 poplar.

Let me know what you think (or if I need to explain anything else)

Thanks!!!
http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr183/joe6packobeer/overhead.jpg

[Sean Hughto]

First thing that strikes me is that's an awful lot of dog holes. Did you mean those literally, or is that just to suggest some dog holes will exist on this bench top?

[Prashun Patel]

I think it'd be fine, but since yr asking...

1) too many dog holes.
2) I'd have ONE vice on the end, not two, quick release.
3) I'd make it 24" wide and 96" long if possible. Easier to reach across and able to support longer stock.
4) How's the center tray removable? I don't know that a 'till' of any kind is useful in the bench. I prefer them hung on the wall near the bench.

[David Gendron]

One thing, I don't like metal vise, so I would change them for a leg vise or a twin screw vise at the front left corner and a twin screw vise at the end( wood screw preferably).
But that is only what I would do!!
Keep us updated on your progress, it's alwayse nice to see other woodworker work bench!

[Clint Barden]

Yes, there are more dog holes pictured than would be there probably. I shouldn't have drawn in the middle row for sure. (I just got carried away).

I'm thinking that I would need two vises on the end if using a steel type. The narrow steel vise would probably work better for clamping a long board to the bench top for face planing if it is close to the edge, because it will be in line with the row of holes being used. The other vise on the end would be used only for clamping a large panel. Maybe skip that all together?

Should I pass on the steel vise and get a large end vise from Rockler to complement the front vise?

Whatever the vise arrangement, the dog holes would be appropriate, so don't take all the pictured holes literally.

As to the length and width, I'm afraid to go much longer than 6'. It would work ok where I am now, but I will be moving (several times) before we settle down and it needs to accomodate a potentially smaller shop. The width is negotiable, but I'm 6'3" so I think reaching the other side shouldn't be too hard.

The center tool tray is basically a box that you lift out. This allows you to clamp something in the center of the table. What exactly is a "till"?

Part of me would love to have the veritas twin screw on the front, but I just don't think I would use it enough (meaning the space between the two screws) to justify the price. Plus with the center tool tray as planned, it would be easy to clamp one edge of a large workpiece to the apron and the other in the vise.

[Clint Barden]

Also, what is a good source for the wooden screws? I like the idea of those, but I don't trust myself to make them.

[John Coloccia]

A good first question is always what do you plan on doing with the bench? For example, if you plan on a lot of hand cut dovetails, hand planing, etc, I would maybe consider replacing the front vice with a shoulder vice. It's one thing I wish I had on my bench, and I'll have to put one on some day.

[Clint Barden]

I am really just transitioning from mostly power tools and trying to get into hand tools more (we moved to an apartment). I don't really know yet what I will be doing a lot of.

The shoulder vise looks like it would be in the way to me.

[Sean Hughto]

All this is a lot of personal preference and work habit driven. I think I'd lose the end vise at the back corner. I can't imagine needing it. I might replace both of those with a wagon vise or tail vise.

Also, the tool bin is not worth doing, it just catches dust and shavings.

- just dos pesos

Oh and to give you a sense of my biases (most people like what they're used to), here's my bench:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3255/3229764833_c85be22498.jpg

Based loosely on the Fortune Nelson from the Landis Workbench book.

[Clint Barden]

Sean,
It looks like there is a second row of dog holes on the bench about 12-14" from the row in line with the tail vise.... how are those used if there is no vise that lines up with them?

[Jeff Willard]

Poplar? Really?

[Callan Campbell]

I have to second Jeff W.'s post about the poplar. For the base, probably ok, esp if you have it thick and stable. As a top material however, and with some constant hand tool usage, you'll find it's very soft and any blade or chisel will chew it up easily. Good for your sharp tool edges, but the top's surface may get pretty scarred in a few years time.
White Oak, Maple, other more durable woods for your top might be the way to go if you're going to all this trouble of making your own traditional workbench. I'm not kidding about the poplar wearing, my own homemade bench has poplar edging around it and 1/4" hardboard as a sacrificial/replaceable top board over 2 sheets of 3/4" plywood. The hardboard shows less wear than the poplar when a chisel makes contact. Just my 2 cents:)

[Andy Pedler]

Poplar? Really?

I think poplar is a good choice, especially since the original poster has a stack of it ready to use. It works really nicely, is relatively soft but still plenty strong for a bench. Based on the thickness of the top and size of the legs this bench isn't moving anywhere. I'm a big fan of having your bench built out of a material softer than what you'll typically use for projects. I'd rather the bench dent than the workpiece.

I was a little concerned about poplar's softness a while back but I did a little research, alleviated my fears, and then I built some furniture using it. Solid as a rock.

Andy Pedler - Newark, CA

[Darnell Hagen]

I'm a tool tray fan, it's cheap insurance to keep your tools on the bench and off the floor. A brush keeps it clean, a handy airline is even better. I dunno about it in the middle of the bench, though, I'd put it at the back.

Poplar gets a bit of a bad rap. It is soft, but it's not basswood. It comes in big, knot free boards, it's cheap, and in my experience (I haven't looked at actual scientific data) surprisingly stable. It's a pleasure to work with both hand and power tools. The only real problem I have with it is the beautiful apple green heartwood looses it's colour with time and exposure.

Poplar loves walnut, I think that's my favourite combination of woods.

[harry strasil]

You never have enough dog holes. My 60 by 27 bench has 39 in the top and 36 in the front apron, and 7 vises, with one more to be added, my grandfathers coachmakers vise. Just make it suit your needs, the next one you build will be a little different anyway.

[David Gendron]

I think 6' is a good lenght, not the best but better than my 5' one!! I think that a twin screw vise is a realy good choice, as for wooden one, you can check these guys out, http://www.bigwoodvise.com/index.cfm and, http://www.lakeerietoolworks.com.
The second one will be the one I will go with on my next bench!

A till is a place to put tools... I wouldn't have a "hamsters nest" in the middle of my bench! And at 6'2" I like my bench at 24" and it is easy to clamp across it!

Have you read Chris Shwarz book on work bench," Workbenches, from design & theory to construction & use" or The Workbench Book by Scott Landis? You would find a lot of ideas and answers to questions you may have!

Also, in the Nehandertal wisdom, at the top of this page, you will find a thread about benches of different Creekers, A general bench showcase thread. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=124750)

That is only my $0.02 of cours!

[David Gendron]

Mine is DF and over two years old and doing just fine. I think that well seasoned Poplar gets pretty hard?!? but correct me if i'm wrong! On the janka Scale, Poplar is right there with DF and harder then Hemlock. As for Specific Gravity(weight), it scaled at .42, Df at .48 and Cherry at.50. Not the hardest or heaviest of wood but good enought for a bench!The only thing, would be stiffness, not being realy stiff, the top could sag or flex if the bench was to be long but at 6' and with an apron front and back, I don't see any problems!

[John Sanford]

Overall dimensions are appx 28" x 70"

I'm a "wide bench" guy, so I'm down with the width. I'm 6' with a high ape index and engage in general woodworking (mixed power and hand tools). I worked with a 32" (or was it 36"?) wide bench for about 4 years. Now I'm on a 25", and I'd like to get back a bit wider, 28-30. As for length, yeah, longer is better. :D


I plan to put a steel vise on both corners, to allow clamping wide panels. I'm thinking a nice Jorgensen on the front side, and a cheaper one down the road on the far side. Like others, I'd skip on the back-corner vise. That might be a good place though to put a square of dogholes for temporarily mounting a machinist's vise, something I've done.


The top will be made from 4/4 poplar. The stack of lumber I have to use is 1" x 5.5", so the main portion of the top will wind up being 2 3/8 - 2 1/2" thick. The aprons and endcaps will be 4 1/2" thick/wide. aprons are 2 boards (1 1/2" thick), endcaps are 4 boards (3" thick). Skip the aprons, they're just heartache come clamping time. Make the entire top 3-4" thick.

When it comes time to cut/drill your dogholes, the spacing is fairly important. Space the holes that are lined up with the movable dog in your vise(s) at less than the throw of the completed vise, i.e.with whatever wooden jaws you use already installed.

With your trestle base, make sure that you have sufficient footroom no matter where you stand working on the bench.

I'll echo the suggestion to get Schwarz's book. It is the book about using and building workbenches. It's not as good of a coffee table book as some of the others, but you'll do some serious bench thinkin' after reading his book.

[Clint Barden]

Thanks for all of the suggestions y'all.

I have "the Workbench" by Lon Schleining, but none of the other books. I have researched the subject extensively here and other places on the web.

Yep, the bench will be made of poplar. Not as nice as sugar maple or even hickory, but it's a matter of economics. I could come up with several hundred bucks to buy maple, but there goes my plane budget. :) The stack of poplar is ready and waiting.

For the tool tray, my previous bench (New Yankee Workshop plan) had one, and I really like it. That's just a personal preference. Check out the video of the 21st century workbench from Popular Woodworking. I think having the tool tray in the center and removable would be a nice feature.

As to the vise arrangement, should I go with the full width end vise, instead of a steel vise on the corner?

I would love to have the whole slab 3.5-4" thick, but that would be wasteful of the stack of lumber I have (1x6). Would it hurt to alternate edge glued boards in the slab?

David, why don't you like metal vises?

[Sean Hughto]

The second row allows for the placement of a board across the bench to serve as a planing stop and also allows a three point hold for things like wide boards, doors, etc.

[David Gendron]

The main thing is you have to keep them oiled or greased, and that eventualy get in contact with your work, not good! The other thing wit oil and grease is that it attract saw dust, making it more maintenence and they are slow(other then the Bench Craft brand). Wood, in the other hand are quiker, they don't mare your wood as easily and you don,t have to oil them, bees wax work great!

As for the end vise, go full width, it is use full to hold large panels for DT work or plane end graine!

[Rob Fisher]

Clint,

I am in a similar situation to you. I am trying to start using more hand tools but still plan on using some power tools. And I have been researching and planning a workbench to accommodate these tasks.

In my opinion Chris Schwarz's Workbenches is an essential read. He does show (with considerable detail) two benches which he believes are the best, but I think the strength of the book is that he lays out what features are essential in a bench, no matter what style you end up building.

I would make the entire top 3-4". You could probably use edge joined boards but I would keep them to as few as possible and staggering joints, probably alternating with full width boards at a min. I would personally not use metal vises as I don't like hitting metal with a hand plane or chisel. Wood for me. And I cannot see where you will need two end vises. I will also have the front legs flush with the front edge of the top to facilitate easier clamping.

Height, width, tool trays and vise types really are a personal choice. I will have tool trays similar to the 21st century bench. And if anything building it higher than you think and cut it down as needed. Like Harry said, its your bench so build it to suit you. It can always be changed, reworked later.

Rob

[Clint Barden]

Ok.... I fold....... off to Woodcraft to get Christopher Shwartz's book. :)

[Nick Laeder]

Good for you. I read once that no true woodworker only makes one bench. Might as well make the first out of wood you've got available cheaply. I'm making my first one this summer out of some 2x6s that came from an equipment crate. They look like some sort of pine. Will the top get messed up? Yep. Will I build another one someday? Probably.

[Clint Barden]

Good reading so far. I'm definitely sold on not having aprons.

[John Sanford]

Good reading so far. I'm definitely sold on not having aprons.

toldyaso. :p

:D

I'd already experienced the problems with aprons that Chris explains, I just wasn't sure of the solution until I read his book. And there it is, so darned simple. Just make the top thicker!!

[Andy Pedler]

I would love to have the whole slab 3.5-4" thick, but that would be wasteful of the stack of lumber I have (1x6). Would it hurt to alternate edge glued boards in the slab?

Okay, I have a question for the experts out there. Clint has a stack of 1x6 boards waiting to be transformed into a benchtop and he wants to use it efficiently. He wants the top to be as thick as possible but doesn't want to just rip the 1x6's down to 4" and burn 2" on each board. So what about a compromise?

If the first 4-6 boards on the front and back were 4" thick (inefficient) and the rest of the top was just under 3" thick (more efficient), would that work? If his bench is a Roubo style then the legs would attach to the thicker sections, which seems like it should help stability. It also helps clamping to the front or back of the bench.

Is that a way he might be able to have his cake and eat it too? Or is this a crazy idea from someone who should stick to electrical engineering? :rolleyes:

Andy Pedler - Newark, CA

[Clint Barden]

Okay, I have a question for the experts out there. Clint has a stack of 1x6 boards waiting to be transformed into a benchtop and he wants to use it efficiently. He wants the top to be as thick as possible but doesn't want to just rip the 1x6's down to 4" and burn 2" on each board. So what about a compromise?

If the first 4-6 boards on the front and back were 4" thick (inefficient) and the rest of the top was just under 3" thick (more efficient), would that work? If his bench is a Roubo style then the legs would attach to the thicker sections, which seems like it should help stability. It also helps clamping to the front or back of the bench.

Is that a way he might be able to have his cake and eat it too? Or is this a crazy idea from someone who should stick to electrical engineering? :rolleyes:

Andy Pedler - Newark, CA

Good question! :)


Another question... Hypothetically if I were to build a bench similar to the roubo, I already have some poplar 16/4 boards that I was going to use as the legs. Could I just scale the whole thing down a little? Maybe laminate a 4/4 board to two sides of the 16/4 and wind up with about 4.25" legs,, end up with a 3" x 24" wide x 72" long top?

[David Gendron]

Good question! :)


Another question... Hypothetically if I were to build a bench similar to the roubo, I already have some poplar 16/4 boards that I was going to use as the legs. Could I just scale the whole thing down a little? Maybe laminate a 4/4 board to two sides of the 16/4 and wind up with about 4.25" legs,, end up with a 3" x 24" wide x 72" long top?


Clint, That is a good solution in my book!
I also like the use of a thiker top in the front and back, I think it could work just as good!
A lot of time, people don't think of an other way that does,IMO a realy good top, maybe a little less work, by jointing 4 boards of 6" wide to each others and then making an other one like that, folowing by 2 panels made the same way but starting and finishing with a 3" board( so you get staggered joints) And then gluing these panels together, alternating the panels made of 6" board and the other one, you end up with a top that is 24"x 4" the lenght you want, with less ripping, less waste, and I think less work!

[Dan Sink]

All this is a lot of personal preference and work habit driven. I think I'd lose the end vise at the back corner. I can't imagine needing it. I might replace both of those with a wagon vise or tail vise.

Also, the tool bin is not worth doing, it just catches dust and shavings.

- just dos pesos

Oh and to give you a sense of my biases (most people like what they're used to), here's my bench:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3255/3229764833_c85be22498.jpg

Based loosely on the Fortune Nelson from the Landis Workbench book.

Sean - I hate you. Not "hate" hate, but hate in the same way I hate Andy Roddick for dating Brooklyn Decker. I'm just extremely jealous. ;-)

[Clint Barden]

So I've pretty much read through the Swartz book. The Roubo sounds like a great do-everything type of bench. I can adjust the proportions to suit my needs, but can the bench be made portable? I will need to be able to disconnect the top from the base (lag bolts?) and the stretchers from the ends (all threads?).

Has anyone built the "moveable" Roubo?

[David Gendron]

Just do the legs to top with thrue tenons, that way, if your joinery is tight, you can just drop the top in place and your done! and othe option, would be to add a top stretcher inbetween the front and back legs and lags thrue the stretcher and into the top.
As for the long stretchers, you can use these:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=31147&cat=1,41637
Or go with what Bench Craft uses: http://www.benchcrafted.com/barrelnuts.htm
Have a look at there web site for more idea, they make a Split Top Roubo that is realy nice!

[Thomas love]

Working on one now , poplar base , top will be hard maple. poplar is nice to work with.

[Clint Barden]

Very nice Thomas.... those double wedged tenons look sharp!

[Tommy Squires]

I agree no aprons. I have both steel and wood vises. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Do you really need end caps? There are some applications (a wagon vise comes to mind) where they are necessary but for mounting steel vises, not so much. Just a thought. The two thicknesses is an interesting idea. I used this in mounting my wooden vise nuts rather than bolting them either to the bottom or through bolting. I like it but the trade off was that I couldn't use my planer once those laminations were in place. I used ash but poplar should work. May have to flatten it more often. I chose not to have a tool tray and I am really happy that I didn't. Even at 2ft by 8th, I run out of room and don't like to take time to put up my tools in the middle of project. You can see my bench here:
http://s216.photobucket.com/albums/cc154/tdsquires/My%20Workbench/
Sorry but I couldn't get my pictures to upload for some reason.

My two cents.:)

[Thomas love]

The must be a whole tree in there , nice work Tommy.

[Clint Barden]

I agree nice work Tommy.

I have purchased a metal screw assembly for the leg vise on the front of my roubo style bench. My only question now is the end vise. I have purchased a Rockler quick release front vise that I was planning on using in the front vse position of my previously planned continental style bench. I could use it in the end vise position, but I'm not sure if it the best fit for the end vise or not. I'm thinking of eating the return shipping and getting their larger end vise hardware so I can put a full width end vise on the bench.

[Tommy Squires]

Thanks. It's a beast. Four inch thick top, Five inch square legs - I can barely lift one end. Never intended to move it around. Ash was about $2.60 bf for 8/4 delivered so I used a boat load of it. Flattened the top with my big planner until I couldn't lift the pieces. Attached the two laminations that included the wood vise nuts and started hacking away at it with my #7 jointer until my arms 'bout fell off. Ash is not fun to flatten.

[Russell Sansom]

Clint,
I wouldn't consider poplar for a bench top. It's delightful to work, but isn't so good for metal-on-wood or wood-on-wood mechanics.
Once it dents or a chip presses into it, those flaws will emboss your work. This is a workbench problem that's seldom mentioned, but can almost ruin a board's finish and instead of hanging that beautiful finished cabinet on the wall, you find yourself steaming out a dent and starting over.
Also, if you are a person who uses the bench top as the base of a shooting board, poplar will compress and wear more than you want it to, leaving a surface that you have to smooth again.
I have never done it, but I'd consider "veneering" the poplar top with some beech, maple, etc.
Good luck,
Russ

[Tommy Squires]

Russell, I certainly hear what you say and it's an interesting point. I opted for ash mostly because it was cheap but it's nice to know that I don't have to flatten it often (the very thought has me sweating). That said, Christopher Schwarz has recommended and built benches out of Southern Yellow Pine, Douglas Fir or even gluelam. These are probably softer than poplar. Chris had said that he flattens his about once a year and probably uses it more than most of us. The other side of this logic is that if our benches are harder than our projects, we will dent our furniture while leaving our benches in good shape. If we have to match the hardness of our benches to the hardness of our projects, we will have a hard time finding a fit.
I think having a well designed bench made of durable materials and being aware that we will sometimes have to protect either the bench or the project is the best advise I could offer someone planning a bench.

[Clint Barden]

I appreciate the advise. If I were purchasing the lumber, I would most likely outlay some more cash for ash (hey that ryhmes).

As it is though, I have a stack of free poplar.

[Jeff Bartley]

Clint,
If you have 1x6 material you could also rip 4" sections then take your offcuts and edge glue, joint, and plane them to make similar 4" sections. Just place these glued boards within two full width boards to ensure optimal strength.
But a 4" thick top will still use more lumber than a 3" top so this will only be a good idea if you have enough lumber from the start.
Post some pics along the way!
Jeff (who's also in the middle of a bench-build!)

[Clint Barden]

Clint,
If you have 1x6 material you could also rip 4" sections then take your offcuts and edge glue, joint, and plane them to make similar 4" sections. Just place these glued boards within two full width boards to ensure optimal strength.
But a 4" thick top will still use more lumber than a 3" top so this will only be a good idea if you have enough lumber from the start.
Post some pics along the way!
Jeff (who's also in the middle of a bench-build!)


That is what I plan to do to save a little bit of lumber.

I know the poplar is softer than maple, etc. so I want to make it a bit thicker to allow for reflattening. I think I will rip the boards to 4", and after glue-up and flattening, hopefully I will finish up thicker than 3 5/8".

I will certainly post some pics! I can't wait to get started, but all the lumber is down at my folks place so hopefully I will get started soon.