Tool invention advice

[Tom Hammond]

I have a couple ideas for creating new tools. Looked high and low for the designs and purposes and am 'fairly' convinced they aren't out there. Have made some detailed drawings, built prototypes that work exactly as I hoped. I know I need to contact a patent attorney, but then even if I do get a patent... then what? How do you get it manufactured? marketed?

Any advice from anyone with experience in this area is greatly appreciated!

[Van Huskey]

I have never done this and I am sure others have better ideas but I will throw these out. Once you have the IP tied up I would shop it around to the medium sized companies that deal in that area for example if it is a router accessory I would try to talk to MLCS, Jessem and Incra et al. Also for most anything woodworking oriented I would try Rockler and Woodcraft as they have a lot of exclusive items that are marketed as a better mousetrap. If it is a standalone I have less of an idea. In any event it might be worth a business trip to IWF since you might be able to get face to face with a lot of the industry and make some contacts. If it is something the home handyman can use you might be able to entice someone in the infomercial field to back you, though it sounds cheesy it did WONDERS for Fein's market penetration with the Multimaster and to a lesser extent the Dualsaw.

[Chris Parks]

Been there, done that, sort of. I invented a totally unique part for race karts. I did the patent through a lawyer but because I did not want to actually have the hassle of production, sales etc I approached a person who had the organisation etc to produce and market it and I would take a payment per unit produced. Bad move, that person took the idea, modified it enough to get around the patent and told me to get lost. Patents in the end are only as deep as your pocket, someone sees your product, produces their own version and you have the choice of fighting it in court or walking away. Unless there are really big money numbers involved most don't get disputed. Big companies also run court cases until the other party are out of money, sad but true. I am sure there have been success stories but mine wasn't.

[NICK BARBOZA]

Tom,

Here is a thought:

http://www.rockler.com/Suggestions.cfm

Rockler seems to do this all the time with their "self-branded" stuff. If you click on the Frequently Asked Questions link on that page, they go into some pretty fair detail. I have not tried this for myself, but thought it would be an interesting process given I had a winning idea.

Good luck,
NWB

[Mark Woodmark]

I feel it would depend on what the item is. Does it require machining? Does it require sheet metal fabrication? Is it a casting? Is welding, assembly, painting or powder coating required. How about plating? If you let one manufacturer do all the subbing for you it will cost more than if you did the subcontracting yourself. Your looking at places like a Machine Shop, a Sheet Metal Fabricator, A Welding Shop, Etc. If you sub the parts out. be sure your detail drawings are clear and accurate with tolerances. this will ensure the parts fit together when they are received from different outsourcers. Two mating parts may come from two different outsourcers, one may be on the high side of the tolerances and the other on the low side of the tolerances and if you didnt figure your tolerances correctly they may not fit together. The tighter the tolerances the more expensive the part will be. If the part is formed sheet metal, talk to the sheet metal fabricator about bend radius so you will get what will work for you. If you have to chose between laser cut sheet metal parts or plasma cut go with laser cut, the quality will be better. I was an Industrial Engineer at my previous job in a manufacturing plant. I delt with fabrication processes, flow maps, part adaptability and interchangability. Prior to that I was a design drafter creating manufacturing detail drawing, 3D drawings, weldment, and assembly drawings. I also programmed the CNC fabrication machines. If you have any other questions, please feel free to PM me

[Roger Bean]

Tom,

My experience supports Chris Parks advice. Inventions, patents, and getting the product into production can be very difficult, time consuming, and expensive. I have known several folks over the years that have nearly bankrupted themselves, convinced that their idea would make them rich. It's seldom true.

Patents are costly to maintain and are worth little unless the owner is willing to defend it. And, that can be a bottomless pit unless you have really deep pockets. Smaller producers may well be unethical, while larger producers are more ethical, but much more clever at avoiding royalty situations altogether.

If you're convinced and committed to your idea, go for it. But have no illusions about how difficult it is to bring an idea into successful commercialization. And protect it for any period of time.

[Nathan Callender]

A huge part of being an entrepreneur is doing the leg work to take a prototype to production in a profitable way, so I would suggest finding a mentor that has taken a product (any product, not just in WW) to market. Look for small business help centers, entrepreneurial mentoring programs, and just network the people you trust (maybe someone at church if you attend) to see if you can find someone that is a fit (ie, interview a few :-) ). You DON'T want a business partner (believe me) you want a mentor that can help you get from prototype to making a profit.

That being said, I would suggest that you look for machine shops to source parts that aren't off the shelf and you can't make efficiently, and then most likely you are going to have to do final assembly, QA, shipping, sales, books, marketing and all the rest yourself. If you are not up for that, the rockler (or any of the reputable shops like that) gig seems like a way to cash in a little without most of the pain.

BTW, I'm of the opinion that it's better to test the waters first before ramping up a huge production line. Fortunately, it's reasonably easy now to get a basic website to sell a product through, and if you have to make the first hundred or so units yourself, then that's what you have to do. Some times the simpler, more direct approach to the market gives you an easy way to figure out if this is what you really want to do.

Good luck - we need more people creating and building stuff!

[Tom Hammond]

Hmmmm.... it sounds like an "us vs. them" scenario. Chris and Roger have me concerned that maybe I should just use my new tool at home and hide it whenever anyone comes over.

I'm pretty convinced that this tool is a winner... there are several tools on the market that perform the required woodworking function, but in a totally different way. These tools cost anywhere from $350-$900 depending on bulk, unique design, repeatability, etc. The item I'm looking to make simplifies the process, uses a significantly simpler design and has numerous possibilities for accessories. Argh... I wish I could say more. I've taken about six months and tried to find possible objections... "what about this... what about that... what if I need to this... what about that application... why wouldn't I just do this or use that tool" kind of thing, and I have found a number of simple solutions, some of which have actually simplified the tool further. I'm convinced I could sell the item for $150 retail (based on my local machinist's estimates for the various engineering) and make money with it, doing everything these more expensive tools do... but based on what I'm hearing here, how would I possibly sell enough units to make it worth it before the knockoffs hit the market?

Does anyone have any experience working with a company like Rockler (referenced by Nick)? I'm wondering if they'd let me talk to other inventors before we strike a deal... or before I even show it to them.

THANKS FOR THE INFO.

[Nathan Callender]

Tom - some people will steal your idea, and I'm sure some people here will see it and build one themselves just because, well, as woodworkers, we build stuff. :-) But, don't let that stop you, and don't be afraid that rockler or MLCS or any of the US based companies are going to usurp your idea over night. You'll get your chance to bring it to market and establish a customer base that will let you compete.

I'm of the opinion that in niche markets that are free (and ww is definitely one of them), it is much harder for larger companies to steal patented ideas and run with them. Here's why:

1. The inventor and small companies are much more nimble - a large company has to get the design department to create the design, then it goes to marketing, then to sales, then to legal, and on and on - Unless they can make a huge killing on it, it's not going to be appetizing, and it will cost them much more than it will cost you. The bigger threat here is another small outfit cranking them out.

2. The courts are where big businesses love to muck about, but in niche markets, the end judge is always the market of customers. In WW, we don't like to see nasty stuff going on, and if it were to come to light that a company stole some innovator's idea without compensation, it could be extremely bad for them.

3. The product itself isn't the entire package - it's the service, the marketing, the pitch, the confidence. How is it that a bunch of the same band saws are made in the same factories in China, but companies still compete to sell them? Even if a large company ripped off your product, and wouldn't abide by the cease and desist order from your attorney, there's nothing woodworkers love more than being able to contact the inventor/producer of a product to get info before and after a sale. That's something larger companies simply cannot do.

There's definitely a risk in going into business, but you'll never know what the payoff will be until you try. I definitely urge you to find a mentor you can take to a coffee shop and talk through all of this stuff.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I have a couple ideas for creating new tools. Looked high and low for the designs and purposes and am 'fairly' convinced they aren't out there. Have made some detailed drawings, built prototypes that work exactly as I hoped. I know I need to contact a patent attorney, but then even if I do get a patent... then what? How do you get it manufactured? marketed?

Any advice from anyone with experience in this area is greatly appreciated!

Tom,
Good too see people inventing.
Bad to see people going broke.

Do a simple search on the PTO ( patent and trademark office)
If you don't find what you have, do another search using a search company
just to make sure. $300.00 to $500.00 only.

If you believe in your idea...go all the way.
If you like to do some limited testing before you start ( just to make sure )
We ( the eurekazone company) offer a secure site where you can talk to other inventors and get more advice and real feedback.
By posting your idea in the site, you have the record and date.
Not the track saw forum. That site is public and not secure.

In any case, ( for your protection) be ready to apply for a provisional patent ( good for one year) before one year you showed the idea to anyone.
If you don't apply for a utility patent ( good for 17 years?)
your idea becomes public domain again.

Good luck and if you need more info...
call me anytime.

[David Epperson]

I'd always heard that the first step was to mail a copy of the idea/design to yourself so that the post office was a witness to the date of conception. I thought it strange that no one had mentioned this.

[Mark Maleski]

I'd always heard that the first step was to mail a copy of the idea/design to yourself so that the post office was a witness to the date of conception. I thought it strange that no one had mentioned this.

I've always heard that offers no protection. What's to stop someone from mailing themselves an unsealed, empty envelope and inserting someone else's design after the fact?

[Richard Dragin]

People don't get rich because they had a great idea. You can have a crappy idea but work hard at getting it produced and marketed and become rich maybe, but that takes a lot of work.

A patent search will cost you around $1500 for starters. No guarantee that it won't be copied or that someone else hasn't thought of it already. At some point if you want to sell it you are going to have to show it to someone and take a leap of faith. To be persuasive when you show it you should have some market research and a business plan. The best market research is to produce a few and sell them to prove that they will sell. All this takes time and money and hard work and some brains.

We all have great ideas all the time but yet we aren't all rich. Very few have the determination to see it through.

P.S. Any legal advice you get on a woodworking forum will be worth less than you paid for.

[David Epperson]

I've always heard that offers no protection. What's to stop someone from mailing themselves an unsealed, empty envelope and inserting someone else's design after the fact?
I guess that would depend upon how good their crystal ball was. You have one year from that date to apply for the patent. If you protect your own ideas in this manner, someone trying to claim prior effort, would have to know what that precise date was, and then have one of those empty postmarked envelopes handy that predated it, and then have to chase the patent in less time. I'm thinking it needed to be sent registered mail as well, but I'm not sure on that. At any rate, some indication of the contents - which would remain sealed, and a "Display copy" attached wouldn't hurt. I suppose any effort could be defeated, but no effort at all is the easy way to lose out.

[Eddie Darby]

Patents are only valuable if you have the time and money to defend them in court. Just ask the Wright Brothers.

Then when they expire you have a situation similar to the one Tormek faced with everybody and their Uncle getting into the game.

I have had ideas that have become products, and in the process regretted some aspects of it, since the process can be rough, but in the end I was glad to see that everything worked out, though I find myself hesitant now about doing it again.

[Horton Brasses]

I would talk to Lee Valley for production first. Like Rockler and Woodcraft they do this sort of thing and pay royalties. Unlike Rockler and Woodcraft-they actually either make it themselves or work with factories who can.

Making a product a winner in the marketplace has a lot more to do with marketing and distribution than it does with the product itself. Read about Tesla and Edison for a classic example.

In today's world getting your product out there as a standalone item is both easier and harder. The internet has leveled the playing field-anyone can set up a website-but it has also made people more wary of gimmicks and fly by night operations-with good reason. If you want to devote yourself to your invention fully then by all means determine how to get it made, commit to an inventory, set up a website and get a booth at every trade show you can. All of those things are more difficult the patent. Otherwise try to get someone else to build it and collect a royalty.

I don't know a whole lot about patents-but I believe you will need to spend between $3 and $5K getting it done. It might be best to contact a reputable patent attorney. I think the mailing yourself a part is bogus but I'm not sure.

Best of luck!

[Vince Shriver]

A friend of mine invented a jointed fishing lure and used it himself effectively for several years. He then wanted to market it, so he made a deal with a very well know tackle company who eventually manufactured it in different sizes. He did get the one year patent, but after that the company basically told him to go pound sand - bottom line he got virtually nothing for his design, the the tackle company is enjoying solid sales of the lure.

Many years ago, a close friend of my folks designed a set of rollers: two aluminium trucks with a threaded rod between them with two steel ball bearing tubes in each truck. They were to be place under refrigerators. When he approached the appliance companies, they offered him a small fraction of what he asked for, and explained that his rollers, as designed, would be prohibitively expensive. He stead fastly stood his ground and refused the deal they offered. Bottom line: they manufactured their own redesigned rollers and put them on all their units. And the family friend slowly, but stead fastly, went broke. BTW, I have a couple sets of those original rollers and they work great, but then again, so do my refrig casters.

Rain Bird started with a guy's design and were first produced in his garage here in So. Calif. He became very successful as most people know.

I think success is possible, but it's a mine field out there. Good luck.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not an attorney so take this for what it's worth.

If you want to document the date of invention, have your design documents notarized.

You have one year from publication to seek a patent. But if you disclose your idea to a company, do it under a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) which is not public disclosure and doesn't start the clock running. Get help in drafting an NDA.

Many companies will require you to sign an agreement before you disclose your idea to them. The reason is that they may be working on something similar and don't want you coming back at them claiming they stole your idea. The knife cuts both ways.

In my opinion, for a $150 tool, I think you have to go to someone already in the business. At that price level, you just couldn't afford to build the distribution channels. As someone else suggested, Lee Valley may be a good choice. They seem to be a very ethical company and are selling into the woodworking market. Whether your product fits their product mix is another question that only they can answer.

The best of luck to you.

Mike

[Myk Rian]

I'm not an attorney so take this for what it's worth.

If you want to document the date of invention, have your design documents notarized.
To add to that, send a copy to yourself in a certified letter. Don't open it when delivered.

[Tom Walz]

Paul Akers at Fastcap will do all the work and pay you a royalty. He is very successful and dead honest. Also a nice guy.

see www.fastcap.com (http://www.fastcap.com)

tom

[Mark Maleski]

To add to that, send a copy to yourself in a certified letter. Don't open it when delivered.

I'm no patent attorney, but I've read enough to know this is an urban legend - it won't hold up in court. For evidence, here is a link to a scam prevention folder on the USPTO website: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/iip/documents/scamprevent.pdf

This is a brochure published by the United States Patent and Trademark office. Check out item #4:


"You are told to describe your idea in writing, mail it to yourself and don’t open the envelope. This is worthless advice."

The rest of this brochure may be helpful to the OP in seeking potential business partners.

[Glen Butler]

I have invented a few things myself, but after looking into it found that I didn't have the funds to move forward. Patents are worthless unless you have a lot of money. I find that it's all about marketing. Getting your name out there above the others. Advertise, advertise, advertise.

[William Falberg]

I have a couple ideas for creating new tools. Looked high and low for the designs and purposes and am 'fairly' convinced they aren't out there. Have made some detailed drawings, built prototypes that work exactly as I hoped. I know I need to contact a patent attorney, but then even if I do get a patent... then what? How do you get it manufactured? marketed?

Any advice from anyone with experience in this area is greatly appreciated!


There's no one web site or phone call that's going to answer your questions, Tom. In that simple question: " How do you get it manufactured? marketed? " you're actually asking a million smaller questions regarding EACH of those matters. In all probability you CAN make a living from your ideas but you'll have to literally MAKE every dollar on your own as you make each product and sell every piece. There are a few generalities I can vouch for. The big and medium sized companies can and will profit from your IP but they'll do everything in their power to avoid recognizing, much less paying you, for it. There are no sugar-daddies out there. Hope and pray your product fills only a niche and the Global Squidcos won't see it as profitable to them. There IS sufficient market share to run a niche marketable product and it's not that hard. Just make 'em and sell 'em. You won't get rich, but you can make a comfortable living.

The marketing is where you make money. If you don't market it yourself, you won't make a dime. Nobody will even bother to rip you off until they see you making money. By then, you own the "brand" and it becomes less appetizing to compete with an already established competitor (you) . In the process of making and selling a product; if you're really an inventor; you'll generate a new patentable idea every day and eventually forget about the whole issue of who's stealing your ideas. It doesn't really matter. Do your thing - let the rest do theirs. Forget manufacturers and distributors -their focus is on your money, not selling your wares.

If you have enough EGO to think your idea is better than all others, then you should also have enough EGO to think you can beat the "business" at business. Like Jebediah Nike says: "Just do it!"

If it's not a great idea nobody will buy it and you won't have gone into debt finding that out. IF IT DOESN'T PAY FOR ITS OWN DEVELOMENT - DON'T DO IT!

My marketing campaign started out with door-to-door sales at local construction sites. It's instant feed-back. They'll tell you how to make it and how much they're willing to pay. Your customers will tell you exactly what to do. All you have to do is listen to them. Let your market design your product: they're NEVER wrong.

[Myk Rian]

I'm no patent attorney, but I've read enough to know this is an urban legend - it won't hold up in court.
Strange. My Brother, an Attorney, told me to do this.

[Will Blick]

Tom, from one fellow inventor to another, I applaud your efforts. You got some great advise on this ww site...this demonstrates just how many people have been through this process... I will offer a few additional comments...

For starters, we are trying to comment on something we know very little about, such as, who you are, what kind of bankroll are you willing to invest, how big is your ego (do you want your name on the product), do you have any interest in starting a business? How patentable is the product? Who is the target market, hobbiest or commercial? What is market size? What are tooling costs to build the product? What age are you, how long are you willing to wait? As you can see, none of these issues involve disclosing the product itself. Before I offer anyone advise on "what to do next" I always ask these questions.....

Now some generalized comments....

Filing a provisional patent application will secure your idea for a year. (it replaces the mailing the letter to yourself)

99% of all patents never generate any revenue.


Avg cost of patent infringement case in 2008 was $500k

Patent search is critical, however, considering this field is hundreds of years old, its not just about other patents, but the lurking trap is in "prior art"....i.e. if this concept was ever in the market (with no patent) or discussed in trade magazines at any time, it will null n void any patent you may get...i.e. you will not be able to defend your patent. This search is much more difficult than a patent search. Hence why you never can be overly confident when you own a patent, it may be less defendable than you think. Of course, none of this matters until a product is a success. therefore, you take on the entire risk....

Market size is key.... the larger the potential market, the more interest you will generate. Most inventors have no clue how small markets and profits can be vs. the investment capital required for start up, inventory, marketing, service, etc.

The potential sale price, and the resultant profit margin is critical for attaining interest. And in todays competitive market, without a strong patent, competition will drive down the price, and therefore, the margins. With small margins, the inventor can not expect a lot in royalties.

As suggested by others above, in the end, in most cases, their is more value in the ability to maufacture the product cost effectively, sufficient capital to inventory the product and accessories, have distribution channels in place, have a name brand attached to the product, offer reliable service for the product, strong marketing, etc.... vs., the product invention itself. That is the sad reality of the business world today where anyone can have products made overseas for peanuts. There are very few rare exceptions to this generalized statement.

For what its worth, I have been approached by several ww's through the years for investment capital for their ideas, in all cases, the risks were too great to "go into business" to make the product. In most cases, the inventor did it anyway, and in those cases, the inventors never stopped contacting those of us for added investment capital. They all severely underesitmated how costly it is to bring a product to market....and turn a profit....


Fortunatley, you have some good options in this field... but based on the complexity of the product, not sure if it falls into areas for a company like LV or Rockler. Lets face it, they buy and re sell 99% of the products they offer.... your chances are much greater if the company already manufacturers something similar, and could easily tool-up to make your prodcut....only you know if that is the case.... and if this is true, now patent protection is critical, or at least strong non compete, non disclose contracts, which also can be costly, hence the value of patents. And also, these companies don't sign these contracts so handily, as they could already be working on similar products, so they run risk of potential litigation.

So based on your background and experience in the area of product development (you seem to be past the invention stage) you may consider investing in these next steps...if this is not your bag, seek out someone who you feel is, and let them do it for you, because even the processs of assinging your invention over to another firm, can end up taking years and still incurr a lot of costs and require a lot of expertise and business experience.....

keep us posted, and best of luck to you!

[brian c miller]

Paul Akers at Fastcap will do all the work and pay you a royalty. He is very successful and dead honest. Also a nice guy.

see www.fastcap.com (http://www.fastcap.com)

tom

I have seen tons of this stuff in the local Rockler / Mann Tool. IT never knew it was all from the same source. The grip thing is actuall pretty cool and the pocket chisel seems to be everywhere.

[Dave Rathert]

As far as a Patent Search goes you may want to try this for starters. Contact your local Law School and see if they have an Intellectual Properties Clinic (or something similar). They “may” do the patent search for free. In this case JD students studying IP and patent law will work under the supervision of a professor (Attorney) to do the patent search. I did this a few years ago with something non WW related and the students I worked with were very professional. IIRC I had three meetings with them (two with the prof attending and one with only the students). They couldn’t do the full on patent for me (I don’t think the law will allow it) but they gave me plenty of information to take to an attorney should I pursue a patent and answered many questions I had. I opted not to pursue the patent process; I decided it wasn’t worth it in my case, but it got the ball rolling and answered a lot of questions. And the price was right.
Best of luck.
-D

[brian c miller]

Getting a Patent search and a Freedom to Operate are Expensive. Here's my $.02 on the subject.

To start off with you must know you market. What's the potential? Who are you targeting? How many of the more expensive units are selling? How much of this market share do you intent to capture? What's the switching behavior of the customer (meaning even if your product is "better" are the brand loyal)?

An idea is only as good as the market it sells into.

For a product to be successful for start up guys it MUST be:
1. Easy to distribute.
2. The technology is simple.
3. People view the product as unique.
4. The benefits are obvious.
5. You can sell the product for 3-5X what your cost is. (It's expensive to acquire customers)

I would test market the product before I ever went through the headache and cost of getting it patented. People are unlikely to steal an unproven idea. I'd protect myself by keeping an inventors notebook (check the patent office website for how to do this) and document the steps of you invention, so that you can prove you were working on an idea - write down your ideas and thoughts in a dated sequence, and include notes on who you discussed the idea with, and when.... so on.

Very few people actually sell an idea, many people sell products. I would suggest that you prototype a few of these and give them away to people to Beta test in exchange for feedback. It's it better to tweak the idea with end-users before you go out and get a patent (which are useless unless you are willing to fight it (Think wiper delay))

Once you get a product people are happy with, then move forward with that idea. Can you take it to market? What’s the manufacture cost? You’d want to be 25-33% of selling price. Overhead, Cost of capital (carrying inventor), marketing, et alii will quickly eat up the rest of you margins. I would make a small batch of units and sell them small scale. If you are going to try to sell this ting yourself, how are you going to shield yourself from liability? Someone cuts the hand off and sues sort of thing.

Then after it’s got a proven history of PROFIT shop it around to the big guys.

[Stephen Edwards]

Making a product a winner in the marketplace has a lot more to do with marketing and distribution than it does with the product itself. Read about Tesla and Edison for a classic example.


Ain't that the truth!? Tesla, to this day, has not received the credit due him. Marketing and distribution does indeed seem to be the key to success.

[Darin Kauffman]

I didn't read every post, but you could always do a poor man's copyright. It will hold up in court too.

What you need to do is, take all of your detailed drawings, copy them and place them in a secured envelope. Then mail that envelope back to yourself. The postmark and stamp of the USPS is good enough to prove you had the idea first. NEVER open this envelope, and keep it in a safe.

I invented a gravity weight machine for building upper body mass, and a patent lawyer told me that this is priority number one before you go in search of a patent. No one will know what you have in your secured envelope, and if you go to court, the date stamp on the envelope will set the timeline.

Depending on how difficult it is to get a prototype up and running, you should look at manufacturing these "tools" yourself. Start small and maybe even give a few to trusted carpenters/tradesmen to test the waters. If your tools are worth while then you will most likely be busier than you want. This is when you can decide on outsourcing or starting a small company yourself.

Good luck to you!

[Ron Kellison]

I have significant scar tissue associated with IP protection. Without going into the gory details I can tell you that a full-fledged effort to patent and/or register copyright protection for your idea can easily suck up hundreds of thousands of $ and still not save you in the long run. If I were you, knowing what I know now I would do the following: Build a prototype, even if it's rough. Write up the principles of the device in clear English and state how it accomplishes the task in comparison with other devices on the market. Clearly state what makes it different from these devices. Take numerous pictures, including a breakdown of critical components. Have these pictures printed and signed/dated by credible witnesses who are NOT family members or friends i.e., a P.Eng., a pastor, accountant or lawyer. Put these pictures in an envelope and send them to yourself by registered mail. Put the unopened letter is your safety deposit box.

Next, start shopping the device to the major woodworking companies and tool suppliers such as Veritas or Rockler. Do your background research and pick a company with deep enough pockets to take on the copycats. If you have developed a working prototype of a device that will 1) represent a significant advance to products already on the market, 2) the market size is large enough to interest the manufacturer and 3) the final production cost is low enough to provide a decent margin to the manufacturer you should be able to find a partner.

OK. . .let's assume you've found an interested party. Now the hard part starts! Your best option is to sign a license agreement with a defined term (5 years is reasonable) and turn everything over to the license partner. You should be able to negotiate an advance on the anticipated royalties. Do NOT expect the royalty rate to be much higher that 5% and probably less than 1/2 of that until the product is established in the market. The reason the royalty rate is lower than you might expect is because your partner now has to do all the heavy lifting. . .engineering and design to ensure the product can be made at a profitable price, marketing, distribution, legal protection, sales support and (often overlooked but a significant expense) good documentation. None of these items are trivial.

If you follow this route you won't get rich overnight, but you also won't get ulcers, gray hairs, potential bankruptcy and the grief and aggravation that comes with trying to do it all yourself.

Regards,

Ron

[Geoff Barry]

I am an attorney, but I'm not a patent attorney (though I am an IP lawyer), I'm not YOUR attorney, and this is not intended as legal advice, but rather as a generalized contribution to the conversation:

Patent law is a specialized field, so, bluntly, a non-patent attorney probably would be of little help. The PTO website, though not especially user-friendly, does have a lot of useful info, though. The basics, as others have mentioned, is that you want to do a search yourself first, and then with a search firm, to ensure that you're not simply wasting your time with something that has already been patented. Second, you have a one-year period from when first used in commerce (which is fairly broadly interpreted) to file for protection (note that many other countries do not have this rule, so a failure to file BEFORE disclosing the invention in commerce might prevent you from obtaining protection in other countries. And, of course, a US Patent only cover the US. Someone in Canada can copy away unless you have a Canadian patent, too (though they can't sell back into the US . . .).

But, from a practical point -- people often think, hey, I have this great idea, so I'll patent it, and then license it to someone. The value of your patent is minimal unless and until there is evidence of a profitable market for the invention. The best evidence, from the point of view of a potential licensee (or purchaser of the patent) , is for you to go out and establish such a market by manufacturing and selling your own invention. If it really does sell like hotcakes, then you will be able to generate interest. But without that . . . look, for example, at the sawstop saga. That guy had to create his own tool company to get the product to market.

As for infringement, that's always a risk. However, the larger, more reputable companies won't take a risk and infringe a known patent. The real risk is that they will see the patent (because the quid pro quo for the patent monopoly is disclosure of the invention), and figure out how to design around the patent. A patent holder is entitled to their invention, but not all possible similar inventions that do not make use of the patented invention.

In short, having a novel and useful idea is a great start. Getting a patent issued is expensive and time-consuming. And then you've only just begun, so you'd better have some fire in your belly . . . :)

(and the mailing things to yourself IS an urban legend. However, you should keep an inventor's notebook documenting your process of discovery and implementation, and, it goes almost wihtout saing, you need to document anu discussions and/or disclosures you have or make to other parties.)

[Mark Maleski]

I didn't read every post, but you could always do a poor man's copyright. It will hold up in court too.

What you need to do is, take all of your detailed drawings, copy them and place them in a secured envelope. ...etc....

(sigh) :confused:

[Alan Schwabacher]

One way to establish priority is to write up everything on your invention, and file for a very inexpensive provisional patent with the PTO. You must then file for the actual patent within a year, but you are much better protected as you shop it around. Your priority is evaluated based on the provisional filing date, while the patent term depends on the actual patent filing date. Note that these provisional patents came into existence about 15 years ago when US patent law was changed to bring it more into accord with the rest of the world. Some things that were the case no longer are. The uspto.gov website is very informative.

Make sure you have anyone sign a nondisclosure agreement before you tell them about it. This is not only so they don't steal your invention, but because public disclosure may make it unpatentable. Any company you approach should know you do this. You will find it very difficult to get companies interested if they suspect they might put time and effort into it, only to find that you did something earlier that will negate all their investment.

[Will Blick]

Lets face it, this thread shows just how "entrepreneurial" Americans really are! (OK, our Canadian Friends too!)

The advise offered in this thread exceeds the posts offered in most ww threads :-) Truly remarkable the number of invention battle wounds out there, we all have them.

A few additional comments....

I have been involved in product development on and off for 25 years. Both from the inventor side and the investor side. I will offer this to the original poster.... for every 20 inventions I look at, maybe one has some real appeal. What do I mean by "real".... it means enough appeal where the products profit potential vs. the investment capital can actually make the inventor and the investor happy enough to come to terms. Whether they actually come to terms, is a different story, as often expectations on one side are unrealistic. So for those of you who say, "I got it"..... you are .000001% of the way there. :-)


Next, a previous poster mentioned SawStop.... this is a PERFECT example of how hard it is to bring a GREAT product to market. i am not privy to the negotiations between SawStop owner and Grizzly, Powermatic, etc. Here is a case where a person had a patent on a product that would surely have market appeal, and yet the ideal makers of these tools could not strike a deal with the patent owner. From previous threads on this forum, the two owners exchange many posts, demonstrating the difference of positions they each had, it was quite heated. A classic case of the inventor doing everything right, and yet, still failing to accomplish what seemed so obvious - a licensing deal.

Fortunately, the invetor was a savvy attny and had the funding to start his own manufacturing company to bring the product to market... Kudos to him...but the avg. person would rarely have access to the funds, or the ability / desire to start a manufacturing company in a field where its competitors have been making similar products for 100+ years. Even though SawStop is now successful (I think), I am willing to bet the company had its severe growing pains, giving the inventor sleepless nights. Kudos to him for having the drive to see his invention through.... but its still remarkable after he has proven the market for such a product, the big makers and him can not strike a deal so the technology can be on other make table saws.

Anyway, the point being, unfortunately, sometimes this is what it takes, hence the excellent advise from a previous poster... make a prototype, use it, give it to others to use, the feedback will overwhelm you.

Also, as far as licensing goes.... after a deal is made, there can be new obstacles, such as the company falling on hard times, and will not fund the new R&D project.... of course, you try to get some guarantees in your license contract, but this is not easy... often the maker has more leverage than the inventor.

[Richard Dragin]

If I invent a time machine should I stick the plans in an envelope and mail it to myself?

[Clarence Miller]

Hi Tom,

I would take the plans to a public notary and have it notarized at the minimum so that you have verification that this is your idea and that you didn't take it from someone else willingly. It's kind of a catch 22 if you try to market it you are opening yourself up to idea theft but if you don't you will always wonder what could have been. I'm a tinkerer myself and wish you all the luck in this endeavor.

[Neil Davie]

I have filed and received patents and the procedure doesn't have to be intimidating. First research the present art on the patent office site, the write up a provisional patent as it costs little- it only lasts for a year, but will offer protection while working on the marketing end of it all. Depending on the cost to bring it to production, you then start production or get funding/sale from/to other parties.
Make sure you keep a contemporaneous journal, dated and signed on each page of the ongoing development.
The format to type up a patent is available on the uspto site in great detail.
Good Luck!

[Randy Smith]

Hey Tom, I'm in the same boat. I've put together a riving knife that can retrofit onto existing saws. I had a rough prototype made and I use it every day on my Grizzly table saw. It still has a few improvements that can be made but it is definitely operable. I contacted a couple patent attorneys and the end result was that a provisional patent (one year of patent pending protection and nothing more) will cost about $3k, while a full blown patent application will run somewhere around $10k. You still have to do the leg work to build and market it or find someone to license it. I think that's where the real work comes into play.

My biggest issue is that I can't really afford to drop the money without a stronger indication that it is marketable (no, I'm not a big risk-taker). I have tried to contact several industry pros to get their input but no one will reply (probably because of liability issues should they ever put together a similar product). That leaves me with a good idea but not enough courage or willingness to risk a huge chunk of my family's money on a long shot.

I guess if nothing comes of it, at least I have my own riving knife and you have your own tools to use.

[Alan Schaffter]

Tom,

There is some really great info and advice in the preceding posts!

Though my experience is probably not typical, I'll try to add some additional info. Like you, I designed (invented(?) I hate that word) a woodworking "thing" I thought was unique and marketable. Friends thought so too and suggested some of the same things mentioned here. I knew nothing about IP law at the start and even after I learned enough to be dangerous I decided to attempt to market it anyway. I first did research in the library and online and my own patent search- appears I'm ok. It isn't surprising to easily reach the same incorrect conclusion that the early Patent Office did- "everything worthwhile has already been invented". I picked up a couple of books on patenting- two of the more popular ones are by David Pressman an IP lawyer. I used his "Patent Pending in 24 Hours" to help me file a Provisional Patent Application which cost $110+/-(?), total. You can file one online!! As best as I can tell, a PPA essentially only provides two things- (1) it establishes a time marker for your invention and (2) allows you to legally use "Patent Pending" for a year unless you file a full Utility Patent Application then you can continue to use it until the USPTO rules. I can't say, but it may also demonstrate to potential buyers or licensees you are more serious than the other 5000 people that also contacted them that year about their great ideas. The Provisional Patent Application lasts only one year and cannot be renewed. It can be corrected, but if you make changes to the way the device works you must file a new PPA. PPA's are not even reviewed by the USPTO unless there is a claim against an eventual patent. They can be very short, but should accurately describe your invention. PPA's are received and checked to see that you met the filing format requirements and paid the fee- that is it. You receive an electronic and paper confirmation. Unlike patents they are not published.

I believe it has already been stated, most inventions never make it to market, for one reason or another. One of the main causes has nothing to do with the design, function, or utility of the invention, but the difficulty and expense to manufacture it which translates to cost to the consumer. You can invent a new clothespin that is 1000 times better than anything ever made, but if you can't make and sell a bag of 25 of them for under $5.00 (?) it is likely of little value to anyone.

A friend who is a US designer and marketer of woodworking things says he spends between $10,000 - $20,000 per patent though at least one was only $6000- which is VERY low from everything I have read! Some can run tens of thousands of dollars, even hundreds of thousands if challenged. I believe the USPTO filing fee is still less than $2000, all the rest is attorney's fees. None of that money is recoverable if a patent is denied!!!

If you plan to file a patent application or hope that your buyer or licensee will pay for one- DO NOT discuss the item or post pictures of in on the web or anywhere else. Once you do that the item enters the "public domain" and therefore no longer patentable. That doesn't mean a manufacturer will not be interested, however, but it will likely reduce the chances he will be.

If you try to market it, I suggest you write a general description of its attributes, functions, why customers will buy it, what you think it will cost to manufacture (requires research), whether you hold a patent, etc., etc. and why they should buy or license it from you and what you might reasonably expect in return. Do not tell "how" it does what it does or reveal any of what you consider patentable features. Send that under cover letter to carefully selected candidates that market their own outsourced or in-house manufactured items similar to yours. If any are interested, execute a non-disclosure agreement before divulging any more details.

Though a couple of companies were interested, none were interested in buying my design outright. From what I have heard and read, that is very common- few want spend a large amount of money up front on what could end up being a pig in a poke. Those who are interested in licensing mentioned a fee of 2% - 5% of what the retailer pays the manufacturer (which is typically 1/2 retail). Unless you have a big ticket or very high volume item you are not going to get rich.

Some companies will return your submission without even reading and often without opening it. If they have an active R&D department, they may be working on a similar item and don't want to take the chance that you will ultimately claim that they stole your design or are infringing if they don't license your design but market something similar.

Steve Ozmian of Lee Valley told me they receive over 500 (5000?) proposals every year, few are economically manufacturable or marketable. On the other hand, he also said a few like the tenon cutters used to make natural wood furniture, have turned out to be some of their best sellers. They pay one of the higher licensing fees, but would not sign a non-disclosure agreement. (FYI the highest fee charged and paid is 20% to Apple Records for Beatles products)

I was lucky and found a perfect fit manufacturer. We have been working for over a year making the thing cost effective to manufacture. My continued help is part of our license agreement. Last summer we spent a lot of time negotiating that agreement. As a starting point I used a training manual published by the WTO. I included anything and everything that might apply. When we were done negotiating each point, I think we ended up with a a document that is both fair and reasonable. Right or wrong we did not use lawyers.

Some companies may want to see fully functioning prototypes, others may want something production-ready, or nearly so. A few may negotiate after seeing detailed engineering drawings and illustrations. Each one is different.

Hopefully my "thing" will be out before XMAS this year!

Any questions send me a PM. Good luck!

[David Epperson]

If you plan to file a patent application or hope that your buyer or licensee will pay for one- DO NOT discuss the item or post pictures of in on the web or anywhere else. Once you do that the item enters the "public domain" and therefore no longer patentable. That doesn't mean a manufacturer will not be interested, however, but it will likely reduce the chances he will be.

While this is mostly true - apparently there are ways around it. Browning gained a patent on the BOSS tuning system even while threaded on barrel harmonics tuners were in semi common use in competition much prior to their patent filing. I have no idea how much that bit of maneuvering cost them.

[brian c miller]

You would not belive what you can actually get patented. Even a fairly genral concept that is well written in term of it's claims is passable.

For example Stanley Works holds Patent number: 6643947 which boils sown to they have rights to tape measure with blades widths between 1.00 - 1.25 and a standout bewteen something like 9-13 feet.

That's pretty board, but with all patents it's only protects it's claims so it's easily invented around. For example Lufkin now have a 1 3/16 blade with 10 stand out.

I wouldn't be so concerned what patents until you can sell something. Get a PatPen and take it to market.

[Alan Schaffter]

You would not belive what you can actually get patented. Even a fairly genral concept that is well written in term of it's claims is passable.

For example Stanley Works holds Patent number: 6643947 which boils sown to they have rights to tape measure with blades widths between 1.00 - 1.25 and a standout bewteen something like 9-13 feet.

That's pretty broad, but with all patents it's only protects it's claims so it's easily invented around. For example Lufkin now have a 1 3/16 blade with 10 stand out.

I wouldn't be so concerned what patents until you can sell something. Get a PatPen and take it to market.

It IS truly amazing!! One widget gets a patent while, another totally different approach won't, but another very similar one will- it is all in the "claims." You really have to wonder why the USPTO granted patents for some stuff or why people even spent the money to file. Many will NEVER be produced. These last few posts really point out why you need a patent lawyer to file for you. The USPTO has their own language - many words mean something different or have a very narrow and specific definition often different from that found in Funk and Wagnalls.

Also there are "patent companies" whose main business is to research and buy patents from little guys who never brought their products to market and never will, just so they can file infringement claims and sue big guys who may have infringed. This is big business, especially in the electronics industry

Though I don't much like the legal "profession" (sorry), if I were going to go forward with a full Utility Patent Application (not a Provisional) I would not even attempt it without retaining an IP law firm who specializes in filing patents.

Be wary of the large number of companies (not law firms) who often advertise in the back pages of Popular Mechanics and similar handyman magazines and offer patenting services. Though I am sure some are legit, others just want your money and sometimes your invention (for themselves) so says Pressman and other sources.

[John M Bailey]

Be wary of the large number of companies (not law firms) who often advertise in the back pages of Popular Mechanics and similar handyman magazines and offer patenting services. Though I am sure some are legit, others just want your money and sometimes your invention (for themselves) so says Pressman and other sources.

I know about this first hand. My father invented and built a product to help disabled people in wheel chairs. He hired one of those patenting firms. They got the patent and the products is now becoming a standard feature on wheel chairs. Problem is, the patenting firm owns the patent.

[Bob Glenn]

The company I worked for had a patent on one of their products. Another started making the same product and we sued and won after spending millions of dollars. The company is still making the product and won't settle the suit. Its just money down the drain.

[brian c miller]

The company I worked for had a patent on one of their products. Another started making the same product and we sued and won after spending millions of dollars. The company is still making the product and won't settle the suit. Its just money down the drain.

Excatly the case for why a patent is useless unless you've got DEEEEP pockets to fight it.

[Adam Shapiro]

You've gotten some good information and some really bad urban legends in this thread. Feel free to take my free advice for what it costs.

First, the required disclaimers - While I am an attorney, I'm not your attorney, I'm probably not licensed to practice where you live (I don't know where that is), and this is not legal advice.

Now, with that out of the way, please, please ignore the "mail it to yourself" comments. It's useless, it doesn't hold up in court, and it more importantly it flags you as a newbie who doesn't know what he's doing. This is a world in which impressions matter, and if you look like someone who totally out of their element, you'll be ignored or stepped on quickly.

Maintain a log. Keep a list of the various versions and modifications made to the product, along with when you made them and why. Not only does this help in a legal defense of your patent, but in a niche field like ww it helps to tell your story on a marketing level in case someone does try to rip you off. Niche fields tend to have more loyalty towards the inventor than in a more commodity based environment.

File for the provisional patent. Depending on your product, you may be able to do this yourself, it's not terribly expensive. If not, their are IP (intellectual property) and business attorneys who can file this for you. The advantage of using an attorney is twofold, first your filing will be done correctly and second, they may have contacts with potential investors or product development partners. A year later, the full patent is not something I recommend anyone file themselves, use a competent IP lawyer and expect to spend about $10k, depending on your product and the complexity of the design and search required.

NDA are a great, low cost alternative to a full patent if you're shopping for a licensing deal. Unfortunately, most companies refuse to sign them for the reasons others have told you. Prototype manufactures will them though, so have an attorney get a good one together for you and take it to a design house. If it makes sense for the product, put together a prototype and work with the house on the tooling and process required for an initial run of product. From this, you can easily get cost figures for US manufacturing. While most $150 ww products are probably built overseas, the having the process in order will help with the marketing of a licensing deal.

Make a marketing plan for your product. Determine who the customer base is, how large it is, anticipated market penetration rates based on similar products, anticipated life expectancy of the product (the dreaded designed obsolescence), the costs of manufacturing and the costs of sale. You won't know the marketing, product placement, and distribution costs, so make sure the margin is large enough to account for those.

Now that you have a prototype and marketing plan in hand, you're ready to talk to potential partners. On a licensing deal, expect 2-5% in most cases. This can vary depending on when you get paid (is it on all product, only after tooling costs are recuperated, etc), but that's a ballpark range.

Your other option is investors, unless you're independently wealthy. If the domestic manufacturing costs are high, offshore manufacturing has become much more accessible in the last couple of years. It's obviously riskier in terms of IP protection, but a competent attorney and consultant can walk you through the process with a fair amount of protection. There are also some adjustments to the manufacturing you can use, such as splitting the manufacturing between 2 plants and doing final assembly domestically.

The ww market is fairly small in terms of dealers. Unless you want to place in the borgs, you're basically looking at rockler and woodcraft for larger retail stores, and then online sales. If you've got the stomach for it, self manufacturing might make sense.

Good luck.

[Stephen Tashiro]

Tom,

One traditional internet answer to questions about "How do I do this?" is "Why would you want to do that?". Along those lines, you haven't explained if you primary object is to make a significant amount of money from your invention or whether you merely want to see thing competently produced and known to the world without bankrupting yourself.

If you have the right kind of personality, either of those goals might be achieved by simply publicizing and promoting your invention without patenting or manufacturing it. Go for fame first and perhaps fortune will follow! After all, some people become famous without having any particular skill. If you become a better known innovator in tools, you might find work as a writer, critic and consultant. Would that suit you?

[Tom Hammond]

I've read every word of every post to this point, and GREATLY APPRECIATE the input.

I should add, since it's been asked a couple times... I never really thought about $$$ until AFTER I made the prototype I'm using. The way I put it is this: If I can make enough money to allow my grandkids more college choices (or the like), then that's fine. I don't expect this to be the next SuperSoaker, where the inventor made 35 MILLION in royalties... and counting. I don't care if my name is tagged to it, but I would like to feel in the end that I "fairly" got what I should get out of it. AND... 2-5% feels really cheapo. But, that seems to be the going rate.

Thanks for contributing.

[Chris Tsutsui]

Since this thread is an "invention" thread, and not asking about profits or business, I will just say that I would first consult with a trustworthy patent attorney to hear what they have to say about it.

My good friend is a patent attorney so if you want his number you can PM me for it.

From there, you will have a general idea of what steps to take though I must warn you that most average joe's don't really benefit from patents.

[Frank Shannon]

I don't know anything about creating and producing a product but I'll say this. I hate to think of a good idea dying. So don't let yours die. Find a way. Maybe you won't get rich. But that is no reason to quit thinking or to quit creating. Maybe you'll end up having to practically give it away. I still say that's better than it not happening at all.

I want you to purse this thing, even though I don't know what it is. You may have come up with something I really need. Anyway I'd like the chance to find out. So it does me no good at all for you to quit. I say go for it!

And even if you get screwed over, in a way you haven't completely lost. You came up with and idea that was good enough to steal!

[Darin Kauffman]

(sigh) :confused:

I don't know why my lawyer told me that, but I should have checked that out further. Thanks to Mr. Berry for clearing that whole nonsense up. It sounded legitimate at the time. I was only 17 at the time, so I was a bit naive back then.

Anyway, thanks for the input.

[Jamie Schmitz]

Okay so why not just make around 20 of these devices and throw up a dot com. Throw up a link here and there and just test the waters. I would keep it low key and this way it won't attract to much attention. Then if it starts gaining momentum make 1000 and distribute them to every mom and pop store you can find, or maybe a trade show. If you start showing it off people will copy it.

[Phil Thien]

If you plan to file a patent application or hope that your buyer or licensee will pay for one- DO NOT discuss the item or post pictures of in on the web or anywhere else. Once you do that the item enters the "public domain" and therefore no longer patentable. That doesn't mean a manufacturer will not be interested, however, but it will likely reduce the chances he will be.


Actually...

You have one year from the point of public disclosure to file a patent. This patent can be provisional. Then you have another year to file your non-prov.

What you do give up w/ public disclosure is foreign patent rights. But unless you've invented a way to turn water into gasoline, you can't afford foreign protection anyway.

[Alan Schaffter]

Very true, but there still are a lot of gotchas. If you lose track of time or for some other reason fail to file a Utility Patent within a year of filing the Provisional you lose the right to use the Provisional filing date and the right to use "Patent Pending." (Patent Pending starts again when you file the Utility Application.)

BUT, if the Provisional has expired and you published information about it or offered it for sale more than a year before you file for the Utility Patent I believe, but am not positive, you may not be granted any patent rights at all. So, better, safe than sorry. As many of you know there is a patent infringement issue ongoing now in the woodworking industry that involves who did what and when.

Although patents are awarded to "first to invent" as opposed to "first to file" the first to file usually wins the battle.

Our resident lawyers will need to define "offering for sale" and tell us if offering to sell or license the design under a Non-disclosure Agreement is the same as "offering for sale". If it does, that makes it difficult to safely sell or license the rights to an invention, especially if the inventor doesn't have the resources to file for a Utility Patent.

Another gotcha is if you leave details of your invention out of your Provisional Patent or change it, the Utility Patent Application can not claim the earlier date.

And the list goes on. The best advice is keep quiet, research the patent process, and consult with an IP lawyer.

[tyler mckee]

Am I the only one that is curious what the tool is? how about what can it replace? :p

[Joe A Faulkner]

Tom,

I'm not sure where you live, but most states have at least one or more large, public, state supported, universities or colleges. Personally I have a bias towards the land grant institutions, the schools that offer degrees in Agriculture and Engineering. I'd look into these schools, many of them have centers designed to help entrepreneurs put together a business plan. They can offer help for protecting your intellectual property.

You might look into services provided by your state government to help with business start ups as well.

You may consider contact Steve Gass at SawStop (http://www.sawstop.com/company/story.php). He's lived through what you are thinking about.

You may also consider contacting Ed Morgano at Clear Vue
(http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/). Ed has taken an idea to market, and is currently dealing with some of the same issues that have raised here. If you send Ed an e-mail, he will respond.

Of course if your product is a dust collector then I'd have ethical issues with you picking Ed's brain only to then compete with him.

Your time on this earth is limited. It sounds as if you have an opportunity to make a contribution to the collective advancement of wood working. If you can do this without losing your shirt, I encourage you to focus on being fair and ethical and bringing your product to market. If it makes money, that's icing on the cake. I hope you can bake a good cake. Go for it. Good luck!

[Darin Kauffman]

Another option, and I suppose not a popular one, would be to dump it into public domain. I'm not sure how it is done exactly, but the guys at Eagle Research use this method for their work. They just focus on improvement of technology and stay ahead of their markets by making the highest product they can, for a decent price.

http://www.eagle-research.com/

They explain why they don't patent anything on their website. Hell, they will help you build certain things if you can't afford their tech.

Edit: I would like to add that he protects the information by writing manuals on how to make the described technology, and getting a copyright. Here is the direct link to their philosophy and options for not using a patent: http://www.eagle-research.com/nopatent/patfree.php

Patents would only work if you have enough money to defend it in court.

[Dino Makropoulos]

A funny scenario?
JR. tried to sale his patent pending inventions to A-B-Company.
After wasting time and money, ( takes t&$ to sell something good)
he started to make and sell his inventions.

Tradeshow. JR saw infringements of his patents by A.Company.
JR: This is a copy and a patent infringement.:rolleyes:

Demonstrator for A: We know that but this is the only way
to compete with company B. ;)
and the same time destroy the small inventor...

At the same trade show...
JR saw more infringements by B Company this time.

JR: I like this. Good copy....:rolleyes:
Demonstrator for B: We had to.
We need to be a step ahead against A
and we can destroy the patent holder the same time.
Works for us.
-----------------------------------------

Here is the big question.
What is the best move for JR?

The right answer may be surprising....


have fun.

[Will Blick]

Not that it matters much anymore... this thread is getting beat up pretty heavily..... but as general patent discussion....

to reiterate.... an invention in a field that has been around for 100+ years further complicates the patent process, as prior art can often be used as a means to diffuse your patent, assuming you had the funds to achieve the patent, then, start an infringement suit. There is not much that has not been thought of already.... did you know the first fax machine was patented in the late 1800's? It had some broad claims, that prevented large corporations in the 80's to gain any exclusive market control ...

Patent attny's rarely mention that a patent (assuming you can get a rock solid broad claim to prevent serious competitors) is only as strong as the funds you have to start an infringement law suit, which can take years and dwarf the cost of the products tooling, inventory, marketing, etc. Then often, its impossible to nail down who is actually infringing the patent, cause products are made over seas under shell corporations that can fold in a moments notice....

The entire patent process has become a money game. Some firms specialize in filing hundreds of patents a month...on ideas that might hit one day if technology moves ahead in a given area, and they can be first with a broad claim. Then when I corp Giant enters the field, they know it makes sense to buy the patent for a few hundred grand vs. a future battle....this assumes the market potential is huge for the patent, which is rare.

A good example of this was when Amazon.com patented their one-click ordering system. They have defended this patent many times, but look at the size of the company, $20B in annual sales last I looked... not too mention tons of Wall Street funding. I never found out if anyone licensed it from them.... but my guess is, its like SawStop technology, the competitors just ignore the new technology vs. licensing it.

Patents today are somewhat reserved for big Pharma, high technology, or other large corporations. This does not mean a little man can't get a patent, but often its merit is very limited for many of the reasons mentioned above. Unfortunately, IP lawyers are often not privy to this type of information as they should be.....and even if they were, it would kill there business. They will always remind ya of the hula hoop and the slinky :-)

[Mike Henderson]

Here is the big question.
What is the best move for JR?

The right answer may be surprising....


have fun.
Sell the patent to either company A or company B, who will assert it against the other company.

Mike

[Dino Makropoulos]

Sell the patent to either company A or company B, who will assert it against the other company.

Mike

Mike, This is one Very smart solution.
BUT...The game stops If JR sell his patent.

Funny when you start thinking of the possibilities.

I was lucky to be his friend/student. He invented the microwave.
Same with the inventor of the hovercraft.
Both from NJ.:cool:

[John Coloccia]

Why wouldn't he just license, w/royalties, to companys A and B. That protects the patent, and makes him money, plus he doesn't have to spend a dime or lift a finger. Then anyone else who wants to compete with company's A & B will go to JR as well.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, This is one Very smart solution.
BUT...The game stops If JR sell his patent.

Funny when you start thinking of the possibilities.

I was lucky to be his friend/student. He invented the microwave.
Same with the inventor of the hovercraft.
Both from NJ.:cool:
Google says the Microwave oven was invented by Percy Spencer and he was working for Raytheon, who got the patent assignment, patent number 2,495,429, filed Oct 8, 1945. Looks like it was issued 1/24/1950.

Mike

[Dino Makropoulos]

Google says the Microwave oven was invented by Percy Spencer and he was working for Raytheon, who got the patent assignment, patent number 2,495,429, filed Oct 8, 1945. Looks like it was issued 1/24/1950.

Mike

Sorry Mike.
The convection/microwave? the turning table? or something about plates? I don't remember all the details..


The inventor lives in Metuchen NJ.
He was a helpfull member ( many year back) of the NJ Inventors club?
A good place to get help from other inventors.

For the original poster: Look at your local inventors clubs and call them.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Why wouldn't he just license, w/royalties, to companys A and B. That protects the patent, and makes him money, plus he doesn't have to spend a dime or lift a finger. Then anyone else who wants to compete with company's A & B will go to JR as well.

John,
A & B wants to take JR out of the game.
By licencing his inventions they will make him stronger.
Even if they deside to make a deal...they will ask for exclusivity.

Patents are worthless for the small guys and companies.
Market share and better ideas/inventions/products
or only ONE super strong patent is the only solution for JR.
From what I learned over the years?
If you believe that your idea is very unique and usefull for many people...
don't talk unless you're ready to take it in the market.
If your idea is similar but better than other similar ideas...
THINK about this:
ONLY 1 in 1000 patents may make it in the market...
The PTO (patent $ trademark office) is the most profitable gov. agency.

Some food for thought.:cool: