mezzanine / balcony railing, making it secure?

[Art Mulder]

Hey Folks,

My wife and I are toying with the idea of putting a room above our attached garage.

This would involve extending our upper hallway into the vaulted entry way, in order to hook up to the garage wall, where we would connect to the new room.

Being a vaulted entry, there is a railing wrapping around the upper hallway, like this:
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The vaulted entry way is towards the front of the house here:
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If we extend the hallway to the front wall, it should look something like this:
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Now most of the job would be hired out, but there may be some things that I tackle myself. I have no idea if this railing would be such a thing, but it might.

I'm just wondering about how you would go about securely attaching a railing in a situation like this. Right now that arm of the mezzanine is about 6ft long, but it is securely fastened at the corner, as the railing turns and deadends in the wall. By extending the hallway, we'd be adding another 7ft of hallway, and taking away that section of railing that hooks into the wall. So we'd end up with about 13ft of railing.

I suppose we could rip out the whole thing and put in a new railing. But that would add a huge cost to the job, if we redo all that railing all the way down the stairs and so on. So if I leave it there and just extend it, I would leave that "corner" newel post in position and then move on from that...
(I have broken a spindle before, so I know I can colour-match the wood)

I think it's do-able, but I just thought I'd put this note out and see what sort of comments I might get from anyone who has done something like this before.

[Richard Wolf]

You are absolutely correct about the corner post being secure now because the wall section holds it in place. Once you turn that rail into a straight run balcony with posts breaking up the total run, you must take steps to insure that the posts are secured to the frame work of the balcony. You really only have two choices, half lap the post to the front of the sheet rock into the joist, which means moving the whole rail system over, or mount the post through the floor and either catch a joist or build a floor joist to the post.
There is all types of "special" mounting hardware to flush mount posts to the floor, some work better than others, but all depend on catching some frame work with the hardware. Over time most of them fail and the only sure method of doing the job correctly is to get the post secured to the joist with screws and construction adhesive.

Richard

[Art Mulder]

Okay... back to this project.

Hopefully next month we'll start building.

I picked up a copy of the Ontario Building Code (supplementary bulletin-7 2006) which talks about the proper way to do "guards" (as they call railings like this.)

Most of this just seems to be common sense -- but then I'm an experienced woodworker and I grew up with a dad who was a finishing carpenter.

One thing that they don't really seem to cover is the situation where two railings meet on the opposite side of a post, as I'm going to have. I'm thinking that since you can't screw in from the opposite side of the post (as a railing will be in the way) that the way to go about fastening this is via angled screws from below.
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Or is there a better way?

[David Helm]

Knockdown bolts or something similar. I think you can get this kind of thing made specifically for railings. Re the stiffening,you can pressure block the posts into the framing. That is still the strongest method for attaching railing posts.

[Thomas love]

Art look for rail bolts . Wood screw on one end, machine screw on other end of bolt. Wood screw on to post with a hole drilled into end of rail and hole on bottom of rail end to insert capture nut , then plug hole in bottom of rail. you can use 2 nuts and a wrench to insert wood screw into post. Borg might have them.

[Frank Drew]

the only sure method of doing the job correctly is to get the post secured to the joist with screws and construction adhesive.

Richard's absolutely correct; unless there's some magic hardware I don't know about -- and there could well be -- fastening a railing post just to the deck is asking for trouble, IMO.

[Richard Wolf]

In theory, rail bolts are the text book answer. In reality, not so easy. I always mount my posts first, then install the balusters, then lower the rail onto the balusters and in between the posts. If you have two bolts sticking out of the post, it will never happen. The first rail, you can put a screw through the post, into the rail. I use 3" X 10 and counter bore half way through the post. The second rail will require a screw put in at an angle. You could put it in through the bottom, but the balusters will most likely be in the way. Also, screwing up from the bottom will most likely lift your rail up, unless you have it well clamped. I screw down from the top at an angle and use a well chosen plug to fill the counter bore. Your baluster in place will stop the rail from pulling down and the plug will be almost invisible.
Hope this helps.

Richard

[Art Mulder]

In theory, rail bolts are the text book answer. In reality, not so easy. I always mount my posts first, then install the balusters, then lower the rail onto the balusters and in between the posts.

This is a great idea, thanks. I've never thought of that. I've replaced individual balusters before, when one of my kids broke one. Then it is easy enough to tilt in a new one, fasten it down, and then replace the trim strips. But setting them all in place at once is very interesting.


I use 3" X 10 and counter bore half way through the post. That is exactly what the Ontario Building Code specifies. It's that second rail that was puzzling me!


I screw down from the top at an angle and use a well chosen plug to fill the counter bore. Your baluster in place will stop the rail from pulling down and the plug will be almost invisible.
Hope this helps.It helps a whole ton, Richard, thanks very much! I'll try to remember to post some photos when complete.

The code requires notching the post and bolting it to the rim joist, which is what I would have done regardless. I don't specifically need a new post, since code allows 10'10" between posts. That does seem rather long (the whole length is about 14' in that photo above. So I'm toying with putting in a second post just for the whole "belt and suspenders" approach. I REALLY don't want this to be at all loose.

But from an aesthetic point of view, placement becomes a question. Today I was toying with something like this... (the new area is in blue)
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[Jim Falsetti]

Interesting discussion, as I am in the process of replacing our 1970's black metal stair rail. The wooden parts - newels, rails, and slats - are nearly all done, but not yet installed. To secure the newels, I bought the www.spring-bolt.com (http://www.spring-bolt.com) post to deck bolts. Can anyone report their experience with the spring bolts?

For the record, I am not affiliated with the spring bolt folks in any way.

[Mike Archambeau]

Art;

You should get your hands on this book: http://www.stairservice.com/osc/coffman-stair-building-guide-p-1400.html

I purchased a copy to help me rebuild my two stairways. It shows the tools, techniques, and products that you need to do the job well.

This is a challenging project becuase you have to deal with structural integrity, codes, safety, and it still has to look good.

[Richard Wolf]

But from an aesthetic point of view, placement becomes a question. Today I was toying with something like this... (the new area is in blue)
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Art, that is an interesting solution to post placement. I am basically a asymeterical person, but when it come to stair railing, semetery is very important. Get a helper to hold the post in place an take a good look at it. I think it is a good solution.

Richard

[Richard Wolf]

Interesting discussion, as I am in the process of replacing our 1970's black metal stair rail. The wooden parts - newels, rails, and slats - are nearly all done, but not yet installed. To secure the newels, I bought the www.spring-bolt.com (http://www.spring-bolt.com) post to deck bolts. Can anyone report their experience with the spring bolts?

For the record, I am not affiliated with the spring bolt folks in any way.


I have used the spring-bolts with mixed feelings. Both the post mount and rail connectors depend on two things to be successful, proper drilling depth of holes and allowing proper set time for the glue to set or in the post bolt, epoxy to cure. They recommend a slow cure epoxy, so we are talking a two day job. So the system works, they are just to slow for a professional installation.
If you are set on a flush mounted post, I would suggest;
http://www.stairpartsusa.com/product_p/9403%20sure%20tite%20newel.htm

They work well, but with all mounting systems, are dependent on finding solid framework to mount the hardware.

Richard

[Art Mulder]

Art, that is an interesting solution to post placement. I am basically a asymeterical person, but when it come to stair railing, semetery is very important. Get a helper to hold the post in place an take a good look at it. I think it is a good solution.

I hope so. The other way to add a post is half-way the new section. And then for symmetry I'd need to open up the floor and fit one in about half-way on the old section also. (shudder)

[Roger Rock]

Interesting discussion, as I am in the process of replacing our 1970's black metal stair rail. The wooden parts - newels, rails, and slats - are nearly all done, but not yet installed. To secure the newels, I bought the www.spring-bolt.com (http://www.spring-bolt.com) post to deck bolts. Can anyone report their experience with the spring bolts?

For the record, I am not affiliated with the spring bolt folks in any way.
I am 28 years in the stair business and I have been using the Spring-Bolt for 2 years since it came out. I have talked to railing profesionals from many parts of the US, Canada and the UK who have tried and are using the Spring-Bolt products. In order to get a solid attachment with any hardware there needs to be blocking in the floor's sub structure. The hardware installs in 5 minutes. The epoxy sets in a few hours and cures over night. No wood plugs to look at and has passed commercial load testing. I am affiliated with the Spring-Bolt. Good luck with your project.

[Art Mulder]

I just discovered that I never did bring any closure to this thread, and I thought it was about time! (Considering that we were finished the addition 3 months ago...) :cool:

Especially want to thank Richard, as his advice was bang on.

Once we opened up the floor and ceiling (under the mezzanine) it became quite clear that the existing newel post was NOT sufficient on it's own. I could not see any evidence that it extended down into the floor joists. I have no idea at all how it was secured in place.

1) once they'd made progress on the new bedroom, they opened up into the main house, extended in a cantilevered beam to support the hallway/mezzanine extension, and put up a temporary guard
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2) Looking underneath it was clear that the old post did NOT extend down into the floor framing.
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3) I followed my plan mentioned previously, of adding a 2nd post about 14" from the existing post. Matching the stain was a bit of a trick (the post was hemlock). But really, I was just happy that I found an almost perfect match for the post + spindles. Took a few evenings of experimenting to get the stain almost the same, and then I proceeded to finish all the pieces in my shop. The post was notched about halfway to fit around the beam, and fastened in place with three or four #10 screws that were about 3" long. As well a 3/8" bolt was fed through to make sure it was never going anywhere.
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4) I was going to put some plywood and trim along the edge of the mezzanine to give it a bit of a fake "beam" appearance. This was because the new post was so close to the surface of the drywall we thought it would look bad. But our drywallers were really good and completely hid the post under plaster/mud. Very nice job of it. So we just matched the original style of trim along the edge.
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5) and some new carpet in the hallway contributes to a finished project that fools everyone into thinking the hallway has always been there.
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(We contracted the addition, but I did the trimwork, including the railing + doors.)

[Matt Meiser]

You're right--looks like its always been there.

And I like the final choice for the door--I wasn't crazy about the purple-paneled cartoon door. :D

[Art Mulder]

I wasn't crazy about the purple-paneled cartoon door. :D

Well some kid named Harold ran off with my purple crayon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_and_the_Purple_Crayon), so I had to use wood...

[Richard Wolf]

Good job Art, it looks great.

Richard

[Joseph Tarantino]

when assembling a stair railing where handrails met at 90 degrees sides of a newel post, and a balconey railing went from a wall mounted rosette to a newel post, we used pocket holes with 3" fine thread screws. seemed to work well. any problems with this?

[Richard Wolf]

when assembling a stair railing where handrails met at 90 degrees sides of a newel post, and a balconey railing went from a wall mounted rosette to a newel post, we used pocket holes with 3" fine thread screws. seemed to work well. any problems with this?


No problem. Corner post are always well supported in both directions from the rails. It's the end posts and inline posts that must be well secured.