transtint in waterlox?

[charlie spencer]

Has anyone tried Transtint dye in Waterlox? I am finishing an Ambosia maple table and I don't to muddy the finish ( oil stain mixed in the Waterlox kills the clarity).
The test board using Transtint in the Waterlox looks better than the test board using shellac with Transtint coated with clear Waterlox.
Is there a compatibility issue that might affect drying?

[Larry Fox]

On this page

http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/TransTint.htm

There is a link to a document which has this

Known Incompatibilities TransTints are incompatible* when added to the
following products:
Oil based varnishes and polyurethanes
Watco Danish Oil, Minwax Wipe on Poly, Minwax Antique Oil, and similar wipe on oil finishes
(excluding gels)
All oil based liquid stains (excluding oil based gel stains)
Mineral Spirits
Tung oil and Linseed oil
2K (2-component) polyurethane finishes
* You can always apply TransTint to the wood, let dry, and then apply these products.

Waterlox is a tung oil based product so I would conclude that they are incompatable.

However, I have never tried it myself.

[Scott Holmes]

TansTints can be added to oil based varnish if the TT is dissolved in acetone first.

I DO NOT recommed this.

Color the wood with the dye; then add the Waterlox.

Tinting Waterlox is a risky proposition... reasoning is that Waterlox is very slow drying varnish and tinted finishes (technically called toners) need to dry quickly so the color does not pool. Most toners are shellac or lacquer based. (quick dry)

Getting an even coat with toners is best done spraying the toner. Slow drying toners e.g. Minwax Polyshades are very difficult to get even colors, even if you spray them. Second coats make it worse.

Why not add the dye to a seal coat of shellac? Easy to tint and fast drying.

[charlie spencer]

Thanks for the good answer. I wanted to tint the waterlox because the oil penetration really enhanced the spalting. I agree, shellac is a good alternative that will at least give me the color I am looking for. You are generous with your knowledge and experience.
Charlie

[Pete McMahon]

Charlie,
If you want to add a dye to your Waterlox a very easy way to do it is by using an oil soluble dye that is in powder form. They are offered in a great variety of colors.

You can get them from any of the places that sell dyes such as W.D. Lockwood, Homestead, Woodworkers Supply etc.

They are simple to use. An oil soluble powder will dissolve much more readily in an aggressive solvent like acetone or lacquer thinner but they will incorporate in mineral spirits too.

An easy way to start; mix some powder in mineral spirits. There will be directions with the powder for quantity.If the thinner is warm so much the better. Use a warm water bath to do this. Shake or stir it until the mixture is incorporated and then strain it through a paint filter.

Next, take a small amount of the Waterlox say 4 ounces and add some of your dye to it and mix it well. You can add as much or as little as you want. I would err on the strong side. This will be your stock color.

Now that the dye is fully incorporated with the varnish you can add it to a batch of Waterlox and it will readily mix in. Again how much you use is up to you but here I would use it with restraint. That way you won't end up with a streaky appearance.

An exercise like this will open your eyes to what color can do for you. Just remember that less is often more. Rest assured this is nothing new. Furniture makers have been adding colorants like Dragons Blood to their oils and varnishes for centuries to "improve the color of mahogany" (for example.)

[Prashun Patel]

Having tried adding both aniline (transtint) and oil soluble (powder mixed into mineral spirits) to oil based varnish, I humbly second Scott's response.

I got spotting, and uneven penetration. It just looked bad.

Color first, then top.

If you are trying to pop the spalt, then you might try a technique that people use to pop curl in maple:

Dye the raw wood with diluted dye in water or alcohol. Sand it all back. The softer spalt will absorb more color and won't sand back as readily to white as the surrounding.

Then either wipe with oil to help it irridesce, or go straight to Waterlox.

[Pete McMahon]

Shawn,
Not sure what you mean by uneven penetration. What did you add the dye to? A varnish like Waterlox or something like Watco. Did you strain it?

I can't say I've experienced the problem you've had. Like I said I use the colorant with restraint. I'll use this technique for any of a variety of reasons; to warm up or cool down the inherent color of the varnish, to augment the depth of my base color etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to use this as a primary colorant but as another thin, transparent layer in the equation.

Just out of curiosity, how many times did you try this technique?

[Prashun Patel]

Peter-
I'll be the 1st to say I'm not an expert. I tried it exactly ONCE. I mixed an oil soluble brown powder at 10% in mineral spirits (Isopar K). It looked perfectly solubilized. I then made a wiping varnish of:

10% color mix from above
40% Isopar K
50% Ace alkyd varnish

It all looked fine and homogenous. I did not strain it.

When I went to wipe it on, and swished it around, it looked fine. But when it dried, there were a) spots of dark red lodged in some of the pores of the Eucalyptus I did it on. Also, the tone was not even.

But you are right: I did it ONCE; if anyone's done it more often with better success, I gracefully defer.

[Pete McMahon]

Shawn,
Don't you hate when that happens? Everything looks good until........ well, you know the rest of the story.
I dare say those spots of red were undissolved particles of dye.That's where the straining comes in.
Kudos to your straight forward answer.

[Chip Schaffner]

Waterlox will work with either the water diluted or the alchohol diluted TransTint Dyes if they are applied and allowed to dry prior to the application of Waterlox Tung Oil Finishes. Be sure to follow the manufacturer's directions for the stain cure time or wait 72 hours, whichever is longer, before applying coats of Waterlox Tung Oil Finishes.


If you are looking to add the TransTint to the first coat of Waterlox, it must be the alchohol diluted application. A 4 to 1 ratio is the maximum level of finish to stain that we recommend.


Many woodworkers will make a 6:1 or 8:1 or 10:1 Waterlox/stain mix for the first coat to “highlight” the grain before finishing the piece. We always suggest that you test your mixture to make sure the results are as you desire.


Adding any stain to Waterlox Sealer/Finish will extend the dry time of that coat. Therefore, since we require 24 hours of dry time for each coat, when adding stain, extend that time to 36 hours before recoating.


Good luck with your project.


Hope this helps.


Chip Schaffner - Waterlox

[charlie spencer]

I really appreciate the answer, but I want to make sure I understand. If I want to tint my first coat of Waterlox, do I need to add alcohol to the Transtint dye or can I just add drops of TT into the Waterlox. My subsequent coats will be clear.

[Chip Schaffner]

If the Transtint dye is dry powder and you add the alcohol to it to dissolve it or put it into a liquid form so you can deliver it to the wood, then you have to ad the alcohol to it first, before adding it to Waterlox.

If it is already cut in alcohol, and is a liquid, then you don’t have to add any more alcohol.

Since you say you will add “drops” I assume it’s already dissolved. Adding a little alcohol to thin it before adding to the Waterlox won’t hurt either.

This is right off the Transtint web page:

"Always test before using. Finishes thinned with a high amount of mineral spirits may not accept the dye."

Here’s the website:

http://www.joewoodworker.com/transtints.htm (http://www.joewoodworker.com/transtints.htm)

After reading all this, and I know people use Transtints in our products, there probably is a “pot life” of a few minutes, hours or days before the kick-out, probably hours. I advise testing, and then mix on site, use immediately.

Bottom line is I would dilute with alcohol to help carry it into our product.

Hope this helps.

Chip Schaffner - Waterlox Coatings