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View Full Version : A review of Lee Valley & Lie Nielsen block planes



george wilson
02-22-2010, 4:48 PM
I received my new Lee Valley NX60 block plane a few days ago. Today I took it out to the shop and compared it to my Lie Nielsen 60 1/2 adjustable mouth block plane. I also tested a Stanley #15 adjustable mouth low angle block plane that I bought new about 30 years ago. ALL 3 PLANES have the same low angle iron degree.

The Lee Valley plane plane has extremely accurate machining on it(so does the LN,but not quite as smooth) The machining is also the smoothest I have seen on a commercial plane. It could be that the nickel iron machines more smoothly than regular cast iron. I haven't machined nickel iron myself,so I can't say. The machining was very nice,though.

There is only 1/4 turn of free play in the Norris style adjustment in the Lee Valley. The adjustment screws are very smooth and accurately made. The adjustment stud fits very closely into the corresponding hole(s) in the iron. I measured only .002" play in the hole. Any less than that would probably make the iron hard to get off of the adjustment stud.

Lee Valley advertises .0015" maximum inaccuracy in the flatness of their sole,and squareness to the sides. Having seen that all 3 planes were a bit hollow on their bottoms with a precision Brown and Sharpe straight edge,I decided to test them on my good granite flat. The Lie Nielsen would burnish a .001" piece of brass shim stock placed under the center of its sole. This showed me that the Lie's sole was less than .001" hollow.

The LV plane would not burnish the brass shim,so I laid another shim on top of the first. The plane would then perceptively rock. This showed me that the LV was about .0015" hollow. This was within the advertised accuracy,but more hollow than the Lie.

The Stanley's sole was noticeably more hollow than the more expensive planes. I did not test it,but judging from how all 3 looked against the straight edge,it must be about .002" hollow.

Lee Valley advertised that their blade was lapped flat within,IIRC .0002". It was indeed a TINY bit hollow on the granite flat,and seemed to be within specs. It actually sucked down to the granite surface plate.I would rather have the iron a tiny bit hollow,because it will bear down tighter on the blade ramp,so I was fine with that.



The LV blade was gray color on the bottom from lapping. I gave it a TINY bit of very low angle honing at the cutting edge to get rid of the grayness,and make the edge shine on both sides. LV says that this is not needed,but I prefer 2 shiny edges coming together. Mind you,it took only the LEAST bit of honing on a white ceramic stone to eliminate the gray color. Just about a back and forth of a few inches.

There was no problem with cutting edge performance in either of the expensive planes. I didn't plane enough wood with them to really test that thoroughly. The Stanley's edge held up fine,too. It was made in USA,though,and is about 30 years old.

The thing that bothers me most about the LV plane,is that it is HEAVY,and slippery. I am not opposed to heaviness IF the plane had handles to grasp. I make my planes heavy. I would hate to drop the plane,and I advise anyone buying it to be careful to keep a good grip on it. The finger grips are highly polished,but deeper at their tops. Squeeze them well!

It took a very tiny amount of honing to bring the very finely ground edge to a razor edge. I don't think my micro bevel was even 1/64" wide!

I also sharpened the Lie plane,and the Stanley. Both the LV and the Lie plane have A2 irons. The Stanley has its original blade.

I selected some obnoxious Southern yellow pine to test. I had no soft Borg pine on hand to plane end grain on. All 3 planes worked fine on the end grain. I also planed some very curly red maple. All 3 planes would plane the curls without breaking them.

I have to admit that I found the Lie Nielsen plane easier to handle and adjust. Of course,I've had the Lie for several years. The main problem with the LV plane is the lever cap. You have to really loosen the knurled wheel under it to get the cap a lot to make it want to slide off. When you put the cap back on,and begin to adjust the cutting depth of the blade,the lever cap suddenly loosens some,and needs more tightening. I was following the LV manual's suggestion to only tighten the lever cap 1/4 turn more when it has seated on the blade.


With the LN plane's exposed lever cap screw,you can at least see what you are doing,in terms of loosening the cap till it cleared the screw.

I did not have this problem with the LN,or the Stanley,which has a swinging lever to tighten the lever cap, the easiest system to operate,though not made as elegantly as the other planes,it worked quicker.

I also fount the LN's iron easier to adjust for tilt,which I did by simply grasping the blade's edges,and moving it sideways. The same for the Stanley.

Conclusion: The Lee Valley has some nice refinements,such as the set screws on either side of the blade. This keeps the blade centered in the opening. I also liked the setscrew that you can set to prevent the adjustable sole from coming back against the blade and damaging the sharp edge. I liked the nicer knurling on all the adjustment screws,which were VERY crisp,and sharp feeling(but not sharp enough to hurt your fingers!) I wish LN used nicer knurls on their blade adjustment screws. They look like electrical terminals to me. The fit and finish of all parts was exceedingly accurate. The hollow finger grips on each side follow the contours of the top edge exactly,MUCH to my satisfaction as a person who has studied sculpture. Also,the EDGES of those grip hollows were dead crisp. No rounding off AT ALL.

I can lap the sole of the LV(and,indeed of the LN also),though I wish I didn't have to on such an expensive plane (remember,it was within the specs.) I just would like it flatter. I noticed that when I rubbed the LV plane against the granite surface plate,the center of the adjustable sole,and the butt end edge were the surfaces that touched. The LN just touched at each end.

The fussy LV's lever cap was a bit annoying with the removal,and sudden slipping when advancing the blade. Get it tight enough to not slip,and the blade is hard to adjust for squareness,it seemed to me. However,the plane was new to me.

I realize that function is more important than form,but the designer in me loves the LV. It's coolness factor is way beyond the other 2 planes! I could only wish that there was a bit more bulge in the hand rest area. I think LV got a little carried away with the sleekness of the plane's design,and "stretched" its contour to rather an extreme. It is,though, BY FAR,the nicest plane they have designed as of yet. My hand rests as much on the blade adjustment screw as on the lever cap. And,I hope I never drop it!!

James Taglienti
02-22-2010, 5:03 PM
Thanks! That is a very attractive plane you've got

Tri Hoang
02-22-2010, 6:15 PM
Thanks for the review, George. Nice to see some measurements on sole flatness - not a critical factor in a block plane, though. I think the most critical factor in selecting a block plane is how it fit and feel in your hands. I had the larger LV LA block plane for a few years but sold it because I found it difficult to hold it comfortably.

Block planes are prone to get dropped because of their grip. I dropped my LN 60-1/2 a few days ago. Luckily it landed on the Woodcraft anti fatigue mat below.

george wilson
02-22-2010, 8:40 PM
Trouble is,my floor is 6" concrete. I used to have a wooden floor,but this new building cost a fortune even with a concrete floor. Besides,my metal working machines are in the main room,as is my workbench. Those machines weigh about 3000# each.

I don't want to make a wooden raised area around my bench that I might fall over,having had implants in my back.

I have several block planes,so I may reserve the LV for times when I am working on the bench top,and not over my universal wood worker's vise (which really started life as a German made gunstocker's vise with swivel jaws). Now made in Asia to varying degrees of quality. The WORST one I ever saw was a Canadian copy. It was incredibly loose. The Conservation Shop bought one years ago for 3 or 4 times the cost of the Asian ones now made.

Actually,I've never dropped a plane. But never had a 2#(?) block plane and this slippery!

Jim Koepke
02-22-2010, 9:25 PM
Thanks George,

That was an interesting and well done review.

jim

george wilson
02-22-2010, 10:07 PM
Thanks,Jim. It was rather surprising how well the Stanley worked compared to them. The blade on the Stanley had been sharpened quite a few times,and was razor sharp,but at a more blunt angle than the other planes. I never bothered to flatten it,but if I did flatten it,I think it would make quite a good showing. I couldn't get it to plane quite as thin a shaving as the other 2 would in the condition its blade and sole were in. That was understandable since the sole was off more than the thickness of the shavings I wanted to make.

I had only made guitars with the Stanley in the past,for the greatest part of its use,for things like planing down the edges of the guitar's sides. Extreme flatness was not needed,since the side's edges are curved,and only a small portion of the sole is in contact with the wood.

I need to get into tuning up some of my planes.

Mike Brady
02-23-2010, 10:13 AM
Thanks for the review, George. I always find reviews interesting, but too few are unbiased. Yours does not suffer from this fault.
Your comment about excess weight in block planes has been mentioned in other reviews. Although I have never handled the LV block, anything heavier than the LN 60-1/2, which I find borderline too heavy, would be a no-go for me. If anything, I wouldn't mind seeing a larger block plane rather than a heavier one.

george wilson
02-23-2010, 10:23 AM
I need to dig out my antique postal scale and weigh these various block planes. I THINK the LV in question weighs at least 2 lbs. It might weigh more,as their standard low angle block plane(with 3 finger grips) weighs 1 3/4#,and has an aluminum lever cap. I never noticed it was heavy. If it was just ordinary ductile iron,it wouldn't be so slippery. It is so full of nickel that it is like stainless steel,they say,and it is polished to a brilliant shine in the finger grips.

This is part of the great looks of the plane,but does make it slippery.

I think the very heavy lever cap adds a lot to the weight of the plane. I really hate that this very attractive plane has these problems.

Garth Keel
02-23-2010, 11:25 AM
I enjoy reading your reviews and your objectiveness (?) givers me confidence in your conclusions. I'm sure all thank you for taking the time.

george wilson
02-23-2010, 11:49 AM
O.K.,I got out my old Postal scale and weighed the 3 planes. This is an old scale,but I believe it is accurate. At the least,it gives some method of weight comparison between these planes.

If Lee Valley would post the weight of this plane,we'd have an accurate idea of what to expect.

The Stanley weighs 1 lb. 7 ozs. The LN weighs 1 lb. 10 ozs. The LV weighs 1lb. 12 ozs.

While the difference between the LV and the LN doesn't seem that great, I now think that the PERCEIVED weight of the LV is greater because it is so slippery that I have to grab it much more tightly to hang onto it.

It does seem considerably heavier weighing it in the hand,too,but these are the figures.

Jim Koepke
02-23-2010, 11:51 AM
I need to dig out my antique postal scale and weigh these various block planes. I THINK the LV in question weighs at least 2 lbs. It might weigh more,as their standard low angle block plane(with 3 finger grips) weighs 1 3/4#,and has an aluminum lever cap. I never noticed it was heavy. If it was just ordinary ductile iron,it wouldn't be so slippery. It is so full of nickel that it is like stainless steel,they say,and it is polished to a brilliant shine in the finger grips.

This is part of the great looks of the plane,but does make it slippery.

I think the very heavy lever cap adds a lot to the weight of the plane. I really hate that this very attractive plane has these problems.

I have not followed bicycle racing in years, but I recall back in the 1970s there was a craze of drilling out parts where the metal was considered to be unneeded. The thought was to lower the weight of the bike during a race to give the rider an advantage. Not sure if critical part failures put an end to this practice.

Makes me think that there are likely a few places where a quarter or half pound of metal could be removed from one of these planes. Maybe a good place to start would be around the grip area to provide a better grip.

Amazing that so much goes into the function and appearance of a product and then there is a disconnect when it comes to the actual feel of holding the plane when it is being used.

It just may be that there are a lot of young people doing this and they do not have the calloused, arthritic and tired fingers of us old timers.

I have looked at the NX and DX60 planes and they are beautiful. I have played with the idea of buying one. I have also been looking at old Stanley #60 & #60-1/2 planes. I already have a couple Stanley's later productions of these.

These days, my finances are tight enough that it seems like the more prudent route may be to buy a new LN or LV plane instead of taking a chance on the ebay lottery.

jim

george wilson
02-23-2010, 11:58 AM
Now,I wonder if the weight of the 3 finger grip of the LV is really 1 3/4 lb. as they have posted on their website,or if my scale is just that far off. The 3 grip plane weighs as much as my new Veritas?. It never felt heavy to me,and had an aluminum lever cap. I don't get it. Anyway,this new plane feels quite heavy in any event. Maybe it is just the slippery surface. I used my LN 60 1/2 block plane along with the 3 grip LV when I was toolmaker,and never gave a thought to the LV's weight.

I don't think I'm going to send this plane back regardless of weight. I may be completely nuts,but I like the design. I think this design,while a bit on the extreme side,is a GREAT deal better than the Bridge City's block plane,which(as was usual) WAY over the top,and WAY TOO EXTREME,stretched out MUCH too far,to the point that it was not acceptable. His little brace was pretty bizarre too.

I have several block planes,and will just use this one OVER THE BENCH TOP,and not out where I stand more of a chance dropping it. Maybe I'll look into getting a long rubber matt in front of my bench.

David Keller NC
02-23-2010, 12:34 PM
Now,I wonder if the weight of the 3 finger grip of the LV is really 1 3/4 lb. as they have posted on their website,or if my scale is just that far off.

Uh - George, 1 lb. 12 oz. (your scale) is one and three quarters of a pound... I'd say your scale's right on the money.

Derek Cohen
02-23-2010, 12:44 PM
Hi George

Interesting review. Thanks. You have touched on some of the technical features that I did not look at.

I have been a fan of the LN block planes from way back, and own a few :)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LNandVeritas.jpg

I was intrigued by your comment: The fussy LV's lever cap was a bit annoying with the removal,and sudden slipping when advancing the blade. Get it tight enough to not slip,and the blade is hard to adjust for squareness,it seemed to me. However,the plane was new to me.

I had purchased the LN #60 1/2 some years ago, preferring it over the Veritas LA because it was narrower and more comfortable in my hand. However I did not really appreciate the design of the Veritas LA until I was given one as a gift (by Rob Lee). My preference for the LN as my user did not change, but I came to realise that the Veritas LA was actually easier to adjust. In particular, the lever cap adjuster wheel on the LN is set further under the lever cap than on the Veritas, and you end up pinching your fingers if not careful.

Later on I got involved with testing the Veritas NX60 at the pre-production stage, and this was again apparent with the two planes (NX60 versus #60 1/2) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasPremiumBlockPlane_html_m1fcfb842.jpg

I must say that I also fell in love with the racy looks of the NX60. It has the performance to go with this. Nevertheless the LN has performance to match it, and there are those who prefer its styling. Something for everyone.

For reference, my review compared ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasPremiumBlockPlane_html_67db55fa.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasPremiumBlockPlane.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

george wilson
02-23-2010, 12:49 PM
David,you did not read carefully enough: I was referring to the 3 finger grip LV,which is listed at 1 3/4 Lb. by Lee Valley's website. They gave no weight figure for the new plane I was testing. My post was confusing. I was comparing the LV stated weight of their 3 finger grip plane to the NEW LV plane that ALSO weighed 1 3/4# on my scale.

Derek,what bothered me about the lever cap on my LV was that after I had tightened it to the tightness specified,it would slip after I started adjusting the blade,and I'd have to stop,re tighten the cap,then adjust the blade. This is possibly because I can't see the screw that holds the lever cap on,and I must be not seating it in the right spot. However,it happened every time I took the cap off,about 3 or 4 times,while resharpening the blade,or looking at the casting,etc..

Derek,from the infernal metric conversion,apparently you say the new LV plane weighs 1 lb. 13 ozs.,1 ounce more than I had thought.

Derek Cohen
02-23-2010, 7:40 PM
Derek,what bothered me about the lever cap on my LV was that after I had tightened it to the tightness specified,it would slip after I started adjusting the blade,and I'd have to stop,re tighten the cap,then adjust the blade. This is possobly because I can't see the screw that holds the lever cap on,and I must be not seating it in the right spot. However,it happened every time I took the cap off,about 3 or 4 times,while resharpening the blade,or looking at the casting,etc..

Hi George

That would bother me too. It doesn't sound right, that is, neither of the two I have (NX and DX) have come close to hinting at this (they grab with low tension), and no one has reported anything similar on the various forums (as far as I know). It sounds like you may have a fault (I cannot think what) or have not adjusted the lever cap screw to the ideal length (?).

Regards from Perth

Derek

george wilson
02-23-2010, 9:08 PM
I suppose I just haven't had enough practice at using the plane that much. I just never had that problem with any other plane. All the other planes had an exposed screw that held the cap on. You could tell when the screw was in the slot easily.

Did you experience the plane being iffy about gripping it?

george wilson
02-23-2010, 10:14 PM
Now I am getting PLANE nuts. I've had a real nice Stanley #65 in my bench for several years. I liked the looks of the nickel plated knuckle lever cap. I finally got it out tonight,sharpened it up,and tried it on the curly maple.

It worked very well,though I had a keen,but not quite as sharp an edge as the others I tested.

It weighs 1 pound,7 1/2 ounces on my old scale. The main part of the sole is quite flat,and it does burnish the .001" brass shim. The adjustable front sole is not too flat. It gets taller up to where it meets the throat.

The blade is original(I even got the box!). It was too hard to file with a new smooth Nicholson USA file.

It isn't as satisfying in my hand as the LN. I do like a heavier plane,if I can hold onto it.
But,it definitely deserves to be flattened and fettled up.

I have been doing more machine work than wood work for some time,and never got around to using this nice plane. Shame on me!

george wilson
02-25-2010, 10:45 PM
Does someone offer an A2 blade that will fit the Stanley #65 block plane?

Mike Henderson
02-25-2010, 10:53 PM
I got a modern blade for my 65 from Lee Valley (if I remember correctly) and I'm pretty sure it's A2.

Mike

[I went out to the shop and checked. Yep, it's a Lee Valley and it's 1 5/8" wide. See here (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=42607&cat=1,230,41182,43698). Looks like Hock (http://www.hocktools.com/BL.htm)also offers A2 blades for the 65. ]

Michael Gaynes
02-25-2010, 10:56 PM
Does someone offer an A2 blade that will fit the Stanley #65 block plane?

Will one of these work?: Ron Hock blades. (http://www.hocktools.com/BL.htm)

Derek Cohen
02-25-2010, 11:23 PM
Does someone offer an A2 blade that will fit the Stanley #65 block plane?

Hi George

I bought one several years ago from LN. Look under "Stanley Replacement Blades".

Regards from Perth

Derek

lowell holmes
02-26-2010, 10:30 AM
Not to hijack the string, but I've considered putting plywood underlayment on the floor under my bench if they still make it. A few globes of liquid nail would prevent it from moving around.