GFCI outlet in garage keeps triping

[Jack Gaskins]

I have three 110v outlets in the gargae. One is a GFCI. When I plug in my tools (Lathe or Table saw) to one of the regular outlets the GFCI outlet will trip (with nothing pluged in to it) after about 1-2 minutes of using my lathe or tablesaw. Do I need to replace the GFCI outlet???

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

If the lathe is VS that may be the problem. I remember hearing somewhere that GFI and VS don't like each other.

[Ted Calver]

Jack..If your lathe has a variable speed drive it may be tripping the GFCI. Try plugging it into another non-GFCI outlet.

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

Also it's most likely that the gfi is the first receptacle in the series making the other standard outlets gfi also. If there is no water intrusion problems in the vicinity just replace the gfi with a standard outlet. 15a if it's 14 gauge wire or 20a if it's 12 gauge.

[Jack Gaskins]

Also it's most likely that the gfi is the first receptacle in the series making the other standard outlets gfi also. If there is no water intrusion problems in the vicinity just replace the gfi with a standard outlet. 15a if it's 14 gauge wire or 20a if it's 12 gauge.

It is the first outlet from the main box and that outlet and the main box are located on my garage wall which is an exterior wall. My lathe and tablesaw are plugged into the third outlet from the box. I was thinking of replacing the GFCI with a regular outlet,,,,,,,,,,guess I will have to now even though the outlet is on an exterior wall.

[Aaron Wingert]

I'd suggest replacing the GFCI device before doing away with it. They aren't exactly military grade hardware by any means, and can often behave in a quirky way. In my daily duties as an inspector I very frequently come across bad devices that either malfunction right out of the box or have decided to malfunction after years of service. Simply replacing the device with a new one (or using a GFCI breaker) often solves irritating problems like the one you're having. I also have heard that variable speed tools can cause difficulties but haven't personally experienced that problem with my tools. Although code requires a GFCI for your garage receptacles, if you don't park cars or use pressure washers in there you could most likely get away without GFCI protection.

[Dave Schreib]

The GFCI is required by code and is there to protect you and others in the shop. I would try to find another solution before simply replacing it with a regular outlet. I would first try replacing it with a new GFCI. If that doesnt work, I would replace the breaker with a GFCI breaker. If those two dont work, I would then replace the GFCI with a regular outlet but install the GFCI at the second outlet on the circuit. At least that way only outlet # 1with the lathe plugged into it will be unprotected. The others would be protected. You may also want to post your question on an electrical forum and see what the electricians have to say.

[Jack Gaskins]

Guess I'll replace it first and see what happens.

[David Hostetler]

Not sure about the TS, but I have heard about VS lathes tripping GFCI's...

[Matt Worner]

I would NOT recommend doing away with GFCI protection in your garage. Moving the GFCI down stream will work, but I would replace the first duplex outlet with a single outlet twist lock and put a twist lock plug on the lathe. That converts a convenience outlet (which is what you have now) with a dedicated use outlet that no one can just plug an extension cord into and get whacked. Iretired 7 years ago after 38 years in the electrical trade so haven't looked at a code book since then but IIRC a dedicated use device is exempted from GFCI requirement.

And yes, the VS drive could very well be tricking the GFCI into nuisance trips.

[Scott T Smith]

I have a VS drill press in my metal shop that will immediately trip the GFCI.

[Gerry Werth]

Guess I'll replace it first and see what happens.
I have had several GFI's go bad. But if you replace it, and have a 20 amp circuit...which is normal for garage outlets, make sure you get a 20 amp GFI. I have found many 15 amp GFI's in 20 amp circuits. Not sure if that is a requirement of not, as I'm not an electrician, but that dicotomy has always intrigued me. I had not heard that VS motors trip GFIs...learn something new everytime I blog on here.

[Jim Andrew]

GFCI's are just made to trip. Pretty irritating when you have work to do. When I was building, the city started requiring temporary services to have GFCI's. We needed to keep one guy by the pole to keep the power on. I complained to the electrician about putting too small a breaker in and he said he used 20 amp GFCI's. They just don't perform like a regular outlet.

[Rollie Meyers]

I have had several GFI's go bad. But if you replace it, and have a 20 amp circuit...which is normal for garage outlets, make sure you get a 20 amp GFI. I have found many 15 amp GFI's in 20 amp circuits. Not sure if that is a requirement of not, as I'm not an electrician, but that dicotomy has always intrigued me. I had not heard that VS motors trip GFIs...learn something new everytime I blog on here.

15 ampere GFCI receptacles are rated 20A feed through, and when a GFCI is tripping the equipment plugged into it is the 1st place to look.

[Jeremy Brant]

GFCI's are just made to trip. Pretty irritating when you have work to do. When I was building, the city started requiring temporary services to have GFCI's. We needed to keep one guy by the pole to keep the power on. I complained to the electrician about putting too small a breaker in and he said he used 20 amp GFCI's. They just don't perform like a regular outlet.


If you think that's bad, we just had a safety bulletin come out at work that requires EVERY extension cord for any use to be plugged into a GFCI, either a permanent GFCI outlet, or a GFCI pigtail. Given the safety writeups I see for people getting shocked, I don't recall seeing a single time that adding the GFCI would have prevented the shock.

[Aaron Wingert]

Iretired 7 years ago after 38 years in the electrical trade so haven't looked at a code book since then but IIRC a dedicated use device is exempted from GFCI requirement.


Matt's code knowledge is still good. Dedicated receptacles in garages and accessory buildings are still exempted from the GFCI requirement in most areas. Many jurisdictions permit installation of a simple single receptacle (not a duplex receptacle) as a dedicated receptacle for a specific reasonably permanent appliance such as a freezer. I like the idea of a twist lock personally.

However, the 2009 IRC code (section E3902.2) changed that...Now requiring every receptacle in the garage to have GFCI protection (including the ones in the ceiling for garage door openers). I haven't checked, but I assume the IRC's requirement mirrors the 2008 NEC. Both the 2008 NEC and the 2009 IRC are incredibly controversial model codes and many/most areas are still on older model codes.

[David Helm]

Pretty much agree with Rollie. That said, GFCI receptacles are known to go bad, and as someone said, they can be bad right out of the box. I would probably go to a GFCI breaker for that circuit, they cost about a hundred dollars but are much more reliable. And yes, all your outlets are protected by that one GFCI outlet. The other outlets are supposed to have a sticker saying they are protected, but that often gets overlooked.

[Dave Hartunian]

The GFCI is required by code and is there to protect you and others in the shop. I would try to find another solution before simply replacing it with a regular outlet. I would first try replacing it with a new GFCI. If that doesnt work, I would replace the breaker with a GFCI breaker. If those two dont work, I would then replace the GFCI with a regular outlet but install the GFCI at the second outlet on the circuit. At least that way only outlet # 1with the lathe plugged into it will be unprotected. The others would be protected. You may also want to post your question on an electrical forum and see what the electricians have to say.

I agree with Dave, as I had the same issue until I replaced the GFI outlet. Now is all fine.

[Chip Lindley]

CODE?? One GFCI outlet and two regular outlets on the same garage circuit? Explain the logic behind that *Code* please!

[David Helm]

Chip, the logic is that it only takes one GFCI to protect all the outlets downstream of it on the same circuit. This is standard wiring practice. You will also see one GFCI outlet in a bathroom that protects the outlets in each additional bathroom.

[phil harold]

no need to remove the gfi
just re-wire it so the load of the other two outlests are not going thru the gfi
That way you will have one gfi outlet when you need it (extension cord working outside in the rain)

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

Very good idea Phil. I guess it's good to retain the GFI outlet, but I just don't understand what it's worth is in a dry woodworking shop. I have a 24x36 shop and not one GFI outlet except in the bathroom. Why does everyone seem to think it's needed. My house has it in the bathrooms only also. I've been working in my shop for 20 years and have yet to see the need. What the big deal?

[Bryan Wellman]

Very good idea Phil. I guess it's good to retain the GFI outlet, but I just don't understand what it's worth is in a dry woodworking shop. I have a 24x36 shop and not one GFI outlet except in the bathroom. Why does everyone seem to think it's needed. My house has it in the bathrooms only also. I've been working in my shop for 20 years and have yet to see the need. What the big deal?


A GFCI works in more than wet environments.

It monitors the voltage between the hot and the neutral. If you start bleeding off voltage ie. into oneself, it will cause the outlet to trip, thus you not dying. Just because you've never needed it, doesn't mean it doesn't serve a purpose.

As an electrician I still scratch my head at some of the codes, but GFI's do save lives. Inconvenient, sure, but how convenient is dead?


Ted Nugent once told a story about how an old man came up to him once and suggested he was wrong in fighting so hard for gun rights. He said in his 80 some odd years he'd never needed a gun. Ted posed the question "that's great. I;m happy for you. But let me ask you have you ever had cancer?" When he replied "no", Ted said "well maybe we should stop cancer research, because you've never had cancer".

Same can be said for electrical safety. Just because we may think some of the codes are stupid doesn't mean it isn't a good thing to do.

I am constantly amazed at what I find when going into peoples homes. Just because "It worked the way I did it" doesn't mean its safe.

We are taught that code rules everything. But my standard is:

1: IS IT SAFE??

2: Does it meet code.


In that order.....

[Rollie Meyers]

Very good idea Phil. I guess it's good to retain the GFI outlet, but I just don't understand what it's worth is in a dry woodworking shop. I have a 24x36 shop and not one GFI outlet except in the bathroom. Why does everyone seem to think it's needed. My house has it in the bathrooms only also. I've been working in my shop for 20 years and have yet to see the need. What the big deal?

The reason it is GFCI protected is because it's required, suggesting the removal of safety equipment is not very wise. The use of GFCI's is going to be more prevalent & exemptions are going away w/ every new code issue, even the required AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) has 30 ma GFCI protection built in (Those I do think are snake oil as they have never lived up to the claims made when they were 1st adopted in the 1999 NEC & expanded to cover most everything in a residence in the 2008 NEC). GFCI's are cheap and as a whole quite reliable & the fault is usually the equipment not the GFCI device when tripping occurs.

A still legal way to remove the requirement for a piece of equipment to have GFCI protection is to hardwire it instead of being cord & plug connected, a disconnect will need to be added but they are cheap.

[David G Baker]

Kurt,
The big deal is how much you value your life and those around you. You may never need a GFCI but if you do and don't have one SMC may have one less member.

[David Helm]

For informational purposes this chart shows dates and requirements for GFCI use.143310

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

Kurt,
The big deal is how much you value your life and those around you. You may never need a GFCI but if you do and don't have one SMC may have one less member.
So your saying that every outlet in my shop should be GFI protected? If thats not the case which ones should be? I understand that all exterior outlets and wet environments such a bathrooms have to be by code, but what others inside my shop? Not trying to be smart I just want to correct something if it's wrong. Especially since I'm getting ready to build a CNC table thats going to be VS

[Joe Wiliams]

So your saying that every outlet in my shop should be GFI protected? If thats not the case which ones should be? I understand that all exterior outlets and wet environments such a bathrooms have to be by code, but what others inside my shop? Not trying to be smart I just want to correct something if it's wrong. Especially since I'm getting ready to build a CNC table thats going to be VS
It's my understanding, which could be wrong, that if you can drive a vehicle into your shop the outlets (120v) need to be GFI protected and at least 18" above the floor.

Someone please clarify if this is incorrect.

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

No vehicles in my shop ever and when I built my shop i put the outlets 4' from the floor. Hope that means I'm good.

[Rollie Meyers]

It's my understanding, which could be wrong, that if you can drive a vehicle into your shop the outlets (120v) need to be GFI protected and at least 18" above the floor.

Someone please clarify if this is incorrect.

It has nothing to do if one can or does drive a vehicle in the building, GFCI protection is still required.

This is a copy & paste from the 2008 NEC.

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel.
FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection
for personnel on feeders.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in
(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor
located at or below grade level not intended as habitable
rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas,
and areas of similar use
(3) Outdoors
Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible
and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for
electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted
to be installed in accordance with 426.28.
(4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
(5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section,
unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of
the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited
to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Exception to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently
installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall
not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection.
FPN: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power supply
requirements for fire alarm systems.
Receptacles installed under the exception to
210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the
requirements of 210.52(G).
(6) Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve
the countertop surfaces
(7) Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks — where the receptacles
are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside
edge of the sink
(8) Boathouses
(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, singlephase,
15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations
specified in (1) through (5) shall have ground-fault
circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Kitchens
(3) Rooftops
(4) Outdoors


Please note the bold type.

[Bryan Wellman]

Basically any building that is on residential property will fall into this catagory. A commercial workshop will have different standards, but your situation is still considered residential.

It's about safety.....pure and simple. Of course the people building GFCI's have influence in the industry, but the fact of the matter is.....they save lives. I will be upgrading my own shop soon to install GFCI's in all my general use outlets. And Im an electrician! :) PO just didn't have any in there and I haven't spent the time to do it.

[Joe Wiliams]

It has nothing to do if one can or does drive a vehicle in the building, GFCI protection is still required.

This is a copy & paste from the 2008 NEC.

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel.
FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection
for personnel on feeders.
>snip<
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor
located at or below grade level not intended as habitable
rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas,
and areas of similar use
>snip<
Please note the bold type.

Thanks for that Rollie.:)

[Tommy Squires]

Kurt, I agree. I understand that code requires it. Every $%#@^ wall outlet in my shop has to be protected because my of the concrete slab. As they fail (and rest assured they will fail) I will replace them with regular outlets. I know this is a violation and if the city fathers want to spend my tax money trying to stop me they can be my guest. Before the flames start, I also know that there is some increase in risk to me personally. I can accept that risk. Mine is a one man shop and no children are allowed without close supervision.

It just seems a little silly that I have extremely well protected 110 volt outlets four feet up the wall at the same time I run 12 horse, three phase motors a foot or two from the floor. I better be careful. If I start spraying water around, I could get hurt!!

This is just the rantings of an crusty old curmudgeon that still has all his digits even though I have spent a lot of years around spinning sharp things. Not recommending this for anyone else (just in case the PC police are reading).

[Tom Veatch]

...This is just the rantings of an crusty old curmudgeon that still has all his digits even though I have spent a lot of years around spinning sharp things. Not recommending this for anyone else (just in case the PC police are reading).

I hear your rant, and sympathize with it. I don't see the GFI regulations with quite the same view as I do many of the other "for your own good" laws/rules/regulations, but the fact is, I moved out of my parents room and board many, many years ago and don't particularly appreciate anyone trying to take their place.

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

Thank guys. I come to the conclusion that my shop is just as safe as it was when the day I built it. I've never had an electrical incident in my shop in 20 years so I'll go with the law of averages and keep on keeping on. I'm not saying that it's right for everyone, and everyones shop is different but in my case why change something that has been working without incident for 2 decades.

[Rollie Meyers]

Kurt, I agree. I understand that code requires it. Every $%#@^ wall outlet in my shop has to be protected because my of the concrete slab. As they fail (and rest assured they will fail) I will replace them with regular outlets. I know this is a violation and if the city fathers want to spend my tax money trying to stop me they can be my guest. Before the flames start, I also know that there is some increase in risk to me personally. I can accept that risk. Mine is a one man shop and no children are allowed without close supervision.

It just seems a little silly that I have extremely well protected 110 volt outlets four feet up the wall at the same time I run 12 horse, three phase motors a foot or two from the floor. I better be careful. If I start spraying water around, I could get hurt!!

This is just the rantings of an crusty old curmudgeon that still has all his digits even though I have spent a lot of years around spinning sharp things. Not recommending this for anyone else (just in case the PC police are reading).


GFCI requirements have nothing to do w/ a concrete slab if the floor was wood they still would be required....

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

But a slab is at ground level and a wood floor is normally above as per the post by Joe Williams a few above. What this all comes down to is if your building a new shop the current code should be followed. If you have an existing shop it is what it is and is grandfathered in. It's up to each individual to make the call. I have yet to see a member of any BB that I belong to or the many woodworker friends I associate with killed by being electrocuted in his shop due to the lack of a GFI. This is just my opinion and i'm sorry if I offended the majority.

[Rollie Meyers]

But a slab is at ground level and a wood floor is normally above as per the post by Joe Williams a few above. What this all comes down to is if your building a new shop the current code should be followed. If you have an existing shop it is what it is and is grandfathered in. It's up to each individual to make the call. I have yet to see a member of any BB that I belong to or the many woodworker friends I associate with killed by being electrocuted in his shop due to the lack of a GFI. This is just my opinion and i'm sorry if I offended the majority.


If you wear out a receptacle & you decide to replace it you are no longer grandfathered in, the GFCI requirements kick in, my kitchen was rewired about 1980 or so, it does not have GFCI's at all, one of these days they will be installed.....:D