CNC. Is it really woodworking?

[Dave Bartley]

I met with some fellow woodworkers yesterday. The subject of CNC machines came up. The following question begs an answer. Is CNC really considered woodworking?

I know that in a production shop, it is an invaluable tool if you are duplicating items. Beyond that, where does the joy of woodworking come in?

I know that many of the Neanderthal's may feel the same way about many of the power tools and/or jigs that are out there. IE dovetail jigs.

[Tom LaRussa]

I met with some fellow woodworkers yesterday. The subject of CNC machines came up. The following question begs an answer. Is CNC really considered woodworking?

I know that in a production shop, it is an invaluable tool if you are duplicating items. Beyond that, where does the joy of woodworking come in?

I know that many of the Neanderthal's may feel the same way about many of the power tools and/or jigs that are out there. IE dovetail jigs.
Dave,

I'm a semi-neander, (as are most of the hand tool users on SMC as far as I can tell), in that I believe in using the tool which will provide the best result for a given job.

Dimensioning stock? I use a TS, BS, planer, and jointer.

Fit and finish? I like hand planes and scrapers.

Dovetails? Not much experience here, but I decided to sell my (unused, still-in the box) dovetail jig because I think I can produce better joints with hand tools -- after some learning, of course.

So, my way of looking at things asks, what does a CNC machine do better than can be done any other way?

The only answer I can come up with, given my very slight knowledge of CNC stuff, is that a CNC machine excels at making extremely precise, multiple copies of of intricate parts, in materials which are not susceptible to changes over time, i.e., metals, plastics, MDF, and the like, as well as in wood which will be hermetically sealed against moisture change.

Woodworking?

Sure, I guess. So long as it's wood being worked.

But count me out.

[Jim Becker]

I'm with Tom on the statement that it's just a tool, albeit best serving the production environment where time is money and repeated accuracy is essential. I don't feel that CNC is something that's likely to be popular or even practical with the hobbyist woodworker or even the small pro shop when every project is "custom". But for a small shop churning out cabinet boxes day-in, day-out...it's absolutely to be considered, especially when there are affordable systems available, such as the ShopBot. It's also perfect for operations such as Keith's that need to product custom sign work with good margins...making money is very important and any cost you can drive out of the business without reducing quality (or by actually increasing it!) is to be embraced. Me? I'll stick with my non-computerized tools and just do the drawings on the PC!

[Frank Pellow]

I met with some fellow woodworkers yesterday. The subject of CNC machines came up. The following question begs an answer. Is CNC really considered woodworking?

I know that in a production shop, it is an invaluable tool if you are duplicating items. Beyond that, where does the joy of woodworking come in?

I know that many of the Neanderthal's may feel the same way about many of the power tools and/or jigs that are out there. IE dovetail jigs.

Please parden my ignorance, but what is a CNC machine?

[Christian Aufreiter]

Please parden my ignorance, but what is a CNC machine?

CNC stands for Computer Numerical Control.
A good basic description can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNC).

[Todd Burch]

To answer "CNC: Is it really woodworking?" My answer - absolutely yes.

Don't confuse ugly designs, cheap sheet good products, a plastic look and feel, KD (knock down) furniture (RTA - ready to assemble) furniture, etc., only with CNCs. These types of pieces can and are made with traditional machinery every day.

An analogy would be Bondo. In the hands of a weekend hack, bondo repairs can be as ugly as sin. In the hands of a pro, it can be used for an imperceptable repair on the most expensive of autos.

I don't accept the argument that CNCs are only good for stable sheet goods. Wood, cut on a tablesaw, or cut on a CNC, will still move the same amount in the same conditions.

I think CNCs are purchased, not because they can do an operation better so much as they can do it faster with a less skilled person driving the machine. As a benefit of being computer controlled, you can optimize waste and speed, and in the end, attain better margins.

Jim, is your Festool ATF55 not "computer" controlled with its speed control? :) Anyone have a variable speed router or planer?

One could also ask, is operating car with a computer in it (and most do today) really driving? Fuel mixture ratios are changed as you drive, timing is adjusted, suspensions tightened or loosened, variable steering ratios based on speed, etc., etc., etc...

[Keith Christopher]

I was watching DIY and the luthier they were following around used a CNC (small one.) To cut "F" holes out in mandolin tops. LN uses them to cut their wooden handles for their planes (source: Tool box Hist chan) It's wood working but not craftsmanship for sure. But sometimes I wish I had one when I'm making a ton of Dados. :)

[Greg Mann]

I met with some fellow woodworkers yesterday. The subject of CNC machines came up. The following question begs an answer. Is CNC really considered woodworking?

I know that in a production shop, it is an invaluable tool if you are duplicating items. Beyond that, where does the joy of woodworking come in?

I know that many of the Neanderthal's may feel the same way about many of the power tools and/or jigs that are out there. IE dovetail jigs.


As I read this at my desk I can hear 40 CNC machines just outside my door. This same question was asked in the metalworking disciplines 40 years ago. I can tell you those 40 machies are definitely 'metalworking'.

When CNC first migrated into my industry the same things were being said about high production, lower skilled operators, simple repetitive tasks, etc. The reality today is very different. CNC is used in virtually all facets of manufacturing, from millions per year to one-offs, simple repetitive cuts to the most intricate forms you can define.

Is it woodworking when you use CNC? I think so. The act woodworking is basically presenting a cutting tool to wood (or wood-like substitutes) and controlling the movement of that tool or the wood, or both, to achieve a desired result. Things like movement in the wood before or after the fact, are more related to the ART of woodworking than the ACT of it. Trust me, metal moves too.

As an aside. CNC does not ensure quality in and of itself. In my industry, just like amongst woodworkers, there are huge differences in quality even when the same machines are used by the various practitioners. That is where the art of metalworking, or woodworking, comes into play. A metal part, poorly processed, is junk too. Just my $.02

Greg

[Dan Gill]

I was watching DIY and the luthier they were following around used a CNC (small one.) To cut "F" holes out in mandolin tops.

I saw that same series, and he also used a CNC guided router to cut the arched back for the mandolin. That part of his job may not be woodworking, in your view, but I dare say he's a woodworker of unquestionable talent.

[JayStPeter]

Here's my take: Say I take a piece of wood and run it through a shaper or tablesaw with a stock feeder. Is that woodworking? Is it craftsmanship? The blank was turned into a part while the human just fed it into the machine.

I don't see how CNC is any different. It's just another way to turn a blank into a part. I'd love to have CNC machines, it would be good fun.

If you've ever worked at a place that builds prototypes using CNC, you will realize that these guys are just a different breed of craftsman. They have to design parts, program the machine, and build jigs to hold the parts during the process. Believe it or not, plenty of mistakes are usually made.

It's not like you just throw a log in and pull out a chair.

To me, a craftsman is someone who can build something nice from start to finish using knowledge and tools collected over time. What knowledge and which tools are mostly irrelevant.

Once CNC machines are put onto a factory floor to turn out thousands of copies, the craftsmanship is mostly gone. But that first prototype ...

Jay

[Keith Christopher]

I saw that same series, and he also used a CNC guided router to cut the arched back for the mandolin. That part of his job may not be woodworking, in your view, but I dare say he's a woodworker of unquestionable talent.
Oh for sure, he said he got the CNC because he needed a faster way to make these parts then by hand. I'm sure he's done that work more times than I've used a table saw. My point was using a CNC is working wood, but it is not craftsmanship. Then hand and eye make that happen, tools are tools, it's how we use them that make us woodsmiths.

[Bruce Page]

Absolutely! As already said, it's a tool - no different than a TS or planer or a drill press. I would love to replace my conventional mill with a CNC. I almost bought a used Supermax a couple of years ago, I regret no doing so. One of these days I will have one, if the right deal comes along.

[Chris Padilla]

It's not like you just throw a log in and pull out a chair.
Jay
...I'm working on it.... :D

[Keith Outten]

A subject near and dear to my heart these days as my ShopBot CNC router is currently laying all over my workshop floor in pieces...ready for me to start the assembly process. My personal opinion is that CNC equipment, laser engravers and any other new technology tools are simply taking the place of their predecessors and the age old question concerning whether these new fangled machines are changing the essence of woodworking is nothing new. Hand tools to power tools the result of any Craftsman producing an end product that is beautifull or functional is at least the primary goal. Enjoying the project, and part of that being the selection of tools and materials, can be the most enjoyable part of the process.

It's not about the tools...it is all about the medium whether you are working with wood, metal or glass. If you made a wooden bowl by rubbing your blank with rocks would you be a woodworker? I think so.

[Jim Becker]

If you made a wooden bowl by rubbing your blank with rocks would you be a woodworker?
Oh...now I know what I was doing wrong!! :eek: :D :p

[Chris Padilla]

It's not about the tools...
:eek: What??!! :eek:

Keith, Keith, Keith...it is ALL about the tools!!! :D :D :D

[JayStPeter]

:eek: What??!! :eek:

Keith, Keith, Keith...it is ALL about the tools!!! :D :D :D

Sorry Chris, but you have some catching up to do compared to Keith ;)

I do wish I had one of those large crates like the one in your garage though :D

Jay

[Keith Christopher]

wood, metal or glass. If you made a wooden bowl by rubbing your blank with rocks would you be a woodworker? I think so.
Inc Gloat ! this is a LN 1000BC makes the best dents for the money !

[JayStPeter]

Inc Gloat ! this is a LN 1000BC makes the best dents for the money !

You spent way too much for that. You shoulda bought a well used Stanley. ;) :D :eek:

[Greg Mann]

Here's my take: Say I take a piece of wood and run it through a shaper or tablesaw with a stock feeder. Is that woodworking? Is it craftsmanship? The blank was turned into a part while the human just fed it into the machine.

I don't see how CNC is any different. It's just another way to turn a blank into a part. I'd love to have CNC machines, it would be good fun.

If you've ever worked at a place that builds prototypes using CNC, you will realize that these guys are just a different breed of craftsman. They have to design parts, program the machine, and build jigs to hold the parts during the process. Believe it or not, plenty of mistakes are usually made.

It's not like you just throw a log in and pull out a chair.

To me, a craftsman is someone who can build something nice from start to finish using knowledge and tools collected over time. What knowledge and which tools are mostly irrelevant.

Once CNC machines are put onto a factory floor to turn out thousands of copies, the craftsmanship is mostly gone. But that first prototype ...

Jay
Jay,

You are right. CNC is just another way of saying 'motion control'. The allure is in the ability to define it electronically and 'memorize' it for future use. The art and craftmanship are not gone but resident in the programs; they have originated in the mind of the programmer. Another benefit is that programs can be tweaked and refined over time so that the process produces better results as the experience of the programmer/craftsman improves, in other words, better craftmanship. In the end, it is the same as any other tool, except that it has the potential to be more consistent than human muscle memory. I am sure we will see more use of CNC as the cost of it comes down.

Woodworking lends itself to its use in many ways. For example, the machines can be far less expensive that metalworking CNCs because it takes so much less force to remove material. A router makes a wonderful milling spindle pretty much out of the box. Guiderails can be aluminum and UHMW instead of 5 to 20 tons of grey iron.

Greg

[Ian Barley]

"Craftsmanship" is one of those big ethereal words that has as many uses as it has users. I make series stuff that is cut on a pin guided pattern router or using templates. I shape it on spindle moulders using power feed. I describe myself as a manufacturer because repetition and volume is what is important to me. I have heard many of my customers describe me as a craftsman because each of the pieces I build for them I build "for them" and the experience of hand made is rare to them. When I have the space and money I will be cutting with CNC. The final product will still be assembled by hand and I will still call it manufacturing and my customers will still call it craftsmanship.

If Chippendale were trying to make a living manufacturing furniture today I believe that he would be using the most productive techniques available and at least partly that means CNC.

As to "is it really woodworking"? Well it is a process of working wood and it undoubtedly does happen, so yes - it is really woodworking.

PS - Keith - I am very keen to hear of your experiences with the ShopBot!!

[Dave Bartley]

I would like to thank all for their replies. The answers were about as diverse as the discussion we had the other night. If it comes to the point that you can throw in a log, and "out comes a chair " I will then question " where is the woodworking/craftsmanship?

The much mis-aligned/quoted "Norm" I think said it best. Many of us have hears it said. If I had the tools that guy had in his shop, I could build it as well myself. His answer was.... all the tools are only as good as the craftsman that is operating them.

[Dick Parr]

As I read this at my desk I can hear 40 CNC machines just outside my door. This same question was asked in the metalworking disciplines 40 years ago. I can tell you those 40 machies are definitely 'metalworking'.Greg

And when CNC came into the shop you lost the machinist who was replaced with a machine operator. Some times you got lucky and found one that could program also. But the true machinist is almost a thing of the past in any large production shop, :( unless of course you have a blue streak shop for emergency's.

My 2 cents

[Tom O'Donnell]

Over the years I have had great delight in producing projects with a hand held router. Projects that were considered could only be done with the CNC router some of these I have posted on my home page for all to see. What is required is a greater knowledge of the use of the template guides.

Tom

[Mark Singer]

For me it really depends on the application and the process. Years ago I designed buildings and drafted them completly by hand drafting techniques. The result was architecture. About 15 years ago I began using CAD systems to draw and design. I will almost always start by hand sketching. The result is still architecture and it has not diminished in quallity with the advent of CAD. I see buildings around that because of their poor design and insensitivity to the site and context ...do not qualify as architecture regardless of the process used. They are buildings...not great ones ...not even good ones. And so it is with woodworking...it is all woodworking ...on different levels...the rewards for using individual tools to create something will not be experienced if it is all CNC. If it is part of a finely crafted piece that is well designed for its intent then it becomes woodworking and crafstmanship.

Sticking a frozen dinner in the microwave is cooking...although its not like when grandma had all the pots on the stove and if someone asked her the recipe she couldn't tell them...it was just " a little salt....a little onion and a bit of chopped garlic" That kitchen smelled great when I came from school.... Just like the smell of wood in the shop...newly cut walnut...."a little planning...a little mortising...a bit of CNC..."

[Greg Mann]

And when CNC came into the shop you lost the machinist who was replaced with a machine operator. Some times you got lucky and found one that could program also. But the true machinist is almost a thing of the past in any large production shop, :( unless of course you have a blue streak shop for emergency's.

My 2 cents
That sometimes happens but it is not our experience. Every now and then I need to do something on our toolroom equipment. This is much like the manual stuff I started with in the 60s. While these machines can take advantage of modern carbide cutters, fifteen minutes of dodging hot chips and I am ready to exersize my 'craft' behind a Lexan window. It has been my experience that most of us old-time machinist appreciate CNC more than the young guys. I can still cut Acme threads on that toolroom lathe but it does not take long for it to become pretty dreary work. I imagine Mark probably got tired of sharpening his pencil back at the drafting table before he went to CAD.

Greg

Greg

[Mark Singer]

I imagine Mark probably got tired of sharpening his pencil back at the drafting table before he went to CAD.

Greg

Greg[/QUOTE]
Greg,
It may all be woodworking ....but our love of it should bring out the best from each of us. If you are making a repetative item...CNC can't be beat. As an architect I can still sharpen my pencil...and even draw ....unfortunatley skills that are rare of the architects today coming out of school. I enjoy those abilitities very much and use them daily.

There are those of us that eat to live and those that live to eat.....I sure enjoy a fine homecooked meal.....and a handcrafted piece of fine furniture...I can't see Krenov or Maloof ordering a CNC machine in the near future...

[Fred Chan]

The use of any sort of tool to transform the shape of a piece of wood should be considered woodworking. The real question is what exactly is the definition of woodworking. Is it working with wood to earn your living or is it the joy you get from working with wood?:)

[John Weber]

YES, the others have covered it well. Before planers, jointers, and routers there were hand planes of all sorts. Before chainsaws, there were axes. A CNC machine is just another tool for the woodworker to achieve the result he/she wishes. Some enjoy the process as well as the final product, and to these folks a CNC machine may leave something to be desired, but many people will also be excited by it's possibilities, and enjoy the programming as well and final fitting.

John

[Ralph Morris]

As long that anyone doesn't sign the works "Hand Made By" if u use those CNC machines....:D I run those CNC machines in the machine shop every day. Once in a while I would run some woods for fun.;) I have been machining putters for golf out of all kinds of steels, I threw in wood and made a putter out of wood :p