Old Files -- Is the Steel Good For Anything? Part II

[Tom LaRussa]

Thanks all for your previous contributions.

I now no longer consider these to be worthless files.

Instead they are as-yet-unshaped chisels. :)

BTW, I think I will try to anneal them fully before working the steel.

The question is, though, can I reharden them if I do that? :confused:

Should I treat them as though they were O1 steel? :confused:

BTW, here are some pics of the files in question. That big one looks like it could make a pretty hefty 5/8" mortising chisel -- if all goes well. It's 7/8" wide and more than 1/2" thick.

[Leif Hanson]

http://www.threeplanes.net/toolsteel.html has a good guide to heat treating.

I would anneal the files by heating them to cherry red with a propane or mapp gas torch (using a hot charcoal bed can help to heat them evenly) , then stick them in a bucket of ashes so they cool slowly. You can then shape the steel to whatever form you choose, be it a chisel, turning tool, knife - what ever.

To harden them heat them again to cherry red - to just where they lose any attraction to a magnet if you find it hard to tell by color - then quickly dunk the the steel into oil and lightly swish it around to cool it quickly. This can be motor oil, peanut oil - just as long as it's not highly flammable.

The quick cooling will harden the steel - too much, most likely and it will be brittle and too hard to sharpen, therefore must be tempered (which is just a mild anealing, really). You can do this by sticking it into a 350 - 450 degree oven for about an hour or so. The lower temperature will temper it less, and leave it harder, the higher temperature more, leaving it softer.

Somewhere inbetween is the happy point, around Rc55 to Rc60 or so. High quality chisels are around Rc58 to Rc62, Japanese steel can be up around Rc65, cheap chisels can be down in the low to mid 50's somewhere - saw steel is usually around 50. Harder steel is more brittle and harder to sharpen, and too soft won't hold an edge well.

HTH

Leif

[Ray Thompson]

quickly dunk the the steel into oil and lightly swish it around to cool it quickly. This can be motor oil, peanut oil - just as long as it's not highly flammable.

HTH

Leif
Minor point, high carbon steels are quenched in water. Annealing temp of 400Fwill give a hardness of Rc57. Pretty good overall info otherwise. I may have hardened those things originally, I worked in the hardening room of Nicholson File for a couple of years a loooooong time ago. A nasty place to be. Heating was done in a vat of molten lead covered by a thin layer of coke, then quenched in salt water and stored in fresh water before final sharpening and packaging.

Ray

[Pam Niedermayer]

Ray, we've been having a discussion about file hardening on the Woodcentral Hand Tools board, WC rasp hardening (http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?frames;read=49238)

Do you think the process that you've described would be different if the tang were also hardened?

Pam

[Tom LaRussa]

Hi Ray,


Minor point, high carbon steels are quenched in water.
So is this stuff likely higher in carbon than O-1?



I may have hardened those things originally, I worked in the hardening room of Nicholson File for a couple of years a loooooong time ago. A nasty place to be. Heating was done in a vat of molten lead covered by a thin layer of coke, then quenched in salt water and stored in fresh water before final sharpening and packaging.
Sounds like something out of Dante's Inferno!

When I was researching this stuff on the web I found some knife/sword makers who heat steel at home in a bath of melted salts. After reading about the catastrophes possible with such a system -- like splashing 2000 degree melted salts in one's face -- I decided to go the more sedate route.

I may build a propane forge at some point, but for now I'm just sticking to the Kingsford method. :D

[Tom LaRussa]

I would anneal the files by heating them to cherry red with a propane or mapp gas torch (using a hot charcoal bed can help to heat them evenly) , then stick them in a bucket of ashes so they cool slowly.
I don't have a gas/oxy torch, and some of these things are pretty big, so I think I'll just go with the charcoal method.

I have one of those big, cast-iron, smoking-pit type barbeques, which hold heat really well. I think I'll just build a nice big fire with charcoal in there, plop the files into it, and let it burn itself out and cool overnight.

How's that sound?

[Leif Hanson]

"I don't have a gas/oxy torch, and some of these things are pretty big, so I think I'll just go with the charcoal method."

Just so it's clear - I wasn't referring to a full blown oxy/acetylene torch setup (though that would be nice), rather just a harware store variety bernzomatic MAPP gas torch:

http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/070042190427_3.jpg


Mapp gas kit from Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=misc%2fsearchResults.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@0641734962.1099059644@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdcadcmmdgmglkcgelceffdfgidgmn.0&MID=9876)

Bernzomatic company web site (http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomatic/consumer/jhtml/)

About $40 for the whole setup, and $10 a bottle after that. Or even a propane version of the same thing if you are patient enough (less heat, slower).

"I have one of those big, cast-iron, smoking-pit type barbeques, which hold heat really well. I think I'll just build a nice big fire with charcoal in there, plop the files into it, and let it burn itself out and cool overnight"

Sounds great (I'm converting an old Weber grill myself), if you can get the steel hot enough. If you can't, introduce some air into the mix to heat it up some more. An old boy once suggested a simple hair dryer to me.

Leif

Edit - more info:

http://www.geocities.com/zoellerforge/miniforge.html

http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/forges/microfrg.htm

http://www.reil1.net/

http://www.emainc.com/radnor/forge.htm

http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/forges/brkdrum1.htm

http://www.vikingmetalworks.com/firepot.html

[Peter Gavin]

A quick question (or two). Is it necessary to remove the rust before annealing/tempering because it would change the chemical composition of the metal? and is it okay for the metal to rest directly on the charcoal or should it be suspended in some manner? This is really interesting to me.

Thanks

Peter Gavin

[Leif Hanson]

"Is it necessary to remove the rust before annealing/tempering because it would change the chemical composition of the metal? and is it okay for the metal to rest directly on the charcoal or should it be suspended in some manner?"

Before anything else - I'm not a blacksmith, I'm just passing on what I've learned, and please don't take it as any more than that. I'm sure guys like Ray are going to be able to give more informed opinions, and hopefully correct me when I spout off the wrong things. My own experience is very limited, I've just been researching it this last summer in anticipation of doing a batch of molding plane blades.

You know, I'm not sure about the rust, but I doubt it matters a whole lot. On resting the steel on the charcoal - there aren't any special precautions taken, just jam it in. I don't know about the specific chemical makeup, but charcoal is supposed to add carbon to steel during forging, which can be a good thing.

If making a forge, I've heard that kingsford type charcoal simply will not get hot enough - you either have to make your own charcoal or use coke if it's available. There are some interesting web site out there on how japanese blacksmiths make "earth forges" and on making their own charcoal that you can google that I found absolutely fascinating to read (I don't have any links handy).

[Tom LaRussa]

OH! :o

I have a propane version.


[quote]
"I have one of those big, cast-iron, smoking-pit type barbeques, which hold heat really well. I think I'll just build a nice big fire with charcoal in there, plop the files into it, and let it burn itself out and cool overnight"

Sounds great (I'm converting an old Weber grill myself), if you can get the steel hot enough.
I had no problem getting it hot enough for my first project, which was only a plane blade and a paring chisel. But the blade is small and I only heated the chisel out toward the end.

Still, I think I can get it hot enough for this much metal, but it might get expensive, i.e., I think it will use too much charcoal to make it a good permanent solution without an oxygen source.

So long term I'm going to build a propane forge type thingie, a la Ron Reil. I'm going to keep it a bit more simple/crude though, because I don't need to get it hot enough to melt metal, just heat it to 1500 degrees or so.

I don't want to have to mess around with building my own burner, so a couple months ago I bought one of those backyard turkey fryer kits on closeout at the Borg for $20. It looks like this one, but it only came with the large pot. http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1958374119.1099061681@ @@@&BV_EngineID=cccdadcmmdgmfedcgelceffdfgidgjm.0&CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=Super%20Categories/Outdoor%20Living&MID=9876&pos=p05 The important thing, for my purposes, is that is has a HUGE propane burner, all ready to go.

I figure I'll use the big pot that came with the fryer as the outside of the forge, with a 3 lb coffee can as an insert. Between the insert and the fryer pot will be a few inches of home made "castable refractory material" -- http://home.comcast.net/~j.wasser/NEMES/MakeICR.html -- which is a mixture of 4 parts perlite and one part high temp furnace cement.

I'll chop a big hole -- either in the bottom or the side, I haven't decided which -- to stick in the burner, and away I go...

It might not be terribly efficient, but I think it will produce more than enough heat for my purposes.

:)

[Tom LaRussa]

On resting the steel on the charcoal - there aren't any special precautions taken, just jam it in.
That's what I did, and it worked fine.



If making a forge, I've heard that kingsford type charcoal simply will not get hot enough - you either have to make your own charcoal or use coke if it's available.
I used Kingsford and it got hot enough, but I had to shove the metal right into the center of a burning pile. It would get expensive to do a lot of metal that way I think.


There are some interesting web site out there on how japanese blacksmiths make "earth forges" and on making their own charcoal that you can google that I found absolutely fascinating to read (I don't have any links handy).
Make your own charcoal: http://www.eaglequest.com/~bbq/charcoal/index.html

Charcoal forge made out of an old washtub: http://64.176.180.203/washtubforge.htm

Build a charcoal forge & make your own charcoal: http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/green51.html

[Tony Zaffuto]

If you guys don't losing some time for shipping, send them out to me and I'll run them through one of our continuous belt furnaces. Temperatures range from 1500 degrees F to 2100 degrees F, although we drop the temps over the weekends to just over 1200 degrees F (I have a powder metal parts manufacturing business).

These furnaces are not really suited, though, to re-heat treating.

[Leif Hanson]

Nice!

Here's one of the pages I was referring to:

Building a modified Japanese style sword forge (http://www.twinoaksforge.com/BLADSMITHING/FORGE%20BUILDING.HTM)

It includes a section on making charcoal, too. I don't know how practical it is, but it's a fun read if you're interested in such things.

[Pam Niedermayer]

[i]... There are some interesting web site out there on how japanese blacksmiths make "earth forges" and on making their own charcoal that you can google that I found absolutely fascinating to read (I don't have any links handy).

This is a really cool process. I attended a 3-day seminar in San Francisco last year with a master saw maker Yataiki (Miyano del Endo). We built a forge, assembled the bellows, chopped up pine based home made charcoal (size matters depending on where you are in the forging process), and made some hammer heads from car axels (I think, may have been some other part, leaf springs are good sources for other tool types). Also watched Yataiki make some Yarigana (spear planes). Anyhow, Dave Burnard is my goto expert, he works with Yataiki.

Pam

[Chris Padilla]

Yikes...is this a slope or more of a precipice now? :D

[Tom LaRussa]

This is a really cool process. I attended a 3-day seminar in San Francisco last year with a master saw maker Yataiki (Miyano del Endo). We built a forge, assembled the bellows, chopped up pine based home made charcoal (size matters depending on where you are in the forging process), and made some hammer heads from car axels (I think, may have been some other part, leaf springs are good sources for other tool types). Also watched Yataiki make some Yarigana (spear planes). Anyhow, Dave Burnard is my goto expert, he works with Yataiki.

Pam
Pam,

Speaking of cool, check this out. This guy makes and sells laminated steel -- you could make your own Japanese irons and/or chisels! :)

[Tom LaRussa]

Yikes...is this a slope or more of a precipice now? :D
Kinda feels like you're floating at first, doesn't it? :eek: :D {{evil grin}}

Don't worry though, the budding blacksmith on the go can buy lots of parts and things ready made. For example...

These guys sell ready-made forges in your choice of coal or gas burning, plus all the tools you could need. http://www.centaurforge.com/

This company sells only gas forges, but they sell everything from very little ones to great big ones; and they sell both new and used equipment too. http://www.anvilfire.com/wallace/index.htm

WOW! These guys sell complete kits -- with everything you need all packaged together! http://www.piehtoolco.com/

And if you need more supplies as you go along, you can always just drop by here after work...

<ADDRESS align="left">Budget Casting Supply LLC</ADDRESS><ADDRESS align="left">60 East 40th Ave - Unit C</ADDRESS><ADDRESS align="left">San Mateo, California 94403</ADDRESS><ADDRESS align="left">Phone: 209-694-8601 </ADDRESS><ADDRESS align="left">http://www.budgetcastingsupply.com/</ADDRESS><ADDRESS align="left"> </ADDRESS><ADDRESS align="left"> </ADDRESS>

[Dave Burnard]

Tom, you asked earlier if your old files had more carbon in them than O1. The answer is probably yes. Good files used to be made out of steel that was something like 1.25% Carbon, nowadays they use 1095 or W1 (0.95%C) - cheap chinese files are made from heaven only knows what but they are very soft in comparison to a real file.

Car springs are usually 5160 and sometimes 1070/1080/1095

I use a box bellows and traditional japanese trench style forge. I use softwood charcoal for fuel. I started out with a propane forge. Here's a picture of the forge and box bellows (fuigo) shortly after the first

<img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11980&stc=1" /><br />

I make my own charcoal, and while making charcoal is easy - making good charcoal is hard. Making good charcoal without annoying your neighbors is even harder. I'm still working at it. The simple barrel retorts overcook the charcoal so you have to make lots of it because it has a lower heat content.

If you're buying it you want lump charcoal, oak is better than mesquite which sparks and pops a lot at first. Hardwood charcoal leaves behind more ash which turns into slag. Softwood charcoal leaves less ash behind. "brickettes" are made from coal dust, sawdust and some flammable wax-like substances.

Careful this slope is slippery.

[Ray Thompson]

Ray, we've been having a discussion about file hardening on the Woodcentral Hand Tools board, WC rasp hardening (http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?frames;read=49238)

Do you think the process that you've described would be different if the tang were also hardened?

Pam

The tang is the same steel as the rest of the file, we just used it as a handle. Since steel floats in molten lead there was a rack that the tang fit into to hold the file down into the lead. If you soften the file then heat the whole thing and quench, the tang will be just as hard as the rest of the file.

Ray

[Ray Thompson]

Hi Ray,


So is this stuff likely higher in carbon than O-1?


No, actually the carbon content is about the same as a file. 01 contains all the other "stuff" that makes it a tool steel instead of a carbon steel.




Sounds like something out of Dante's Inferno!

When I was researching this stuff on the web I found some knife/sword makers who heat steel at home in a bath of melted salts. After reading about the catastrophes possible with such a system -- like splashing 2000 degree melted salts in one's face -- I decided to go the more sedate route.

Try sticking a damp file in a pot of molten lead. You will get something between a burp and a blow out. Every heattreater in the department had burn scars from the pots blowing out. I was lucky I was just a sub and on rainy or high humidity days I tried to get another job someplace else.


I may build a propane forge at some point, but for now I'm just sticking to the Kingsford method. :D

[Ray Thompson]

"Is it necessary to remove the rust before annealing/tempering because it would change the chemical composition of the metal? and is it okay for the metal to rest directly on the charcoal or should it be suspended in some manner?"

Before anything else - I'm not a blacksmith, I'm just passing on what I've learned, and please don't take it as any more than that. I'm sure guys like Ray are going to be able to give more informed opinions, and hopefully correct me when I spout off the wrong things. My own experience is very limited, I've just been researching it this last summer in anticipation of doing a batch of molding plane blades.

You know, I'm not sure about the rust, but I doubt it matters a whole lot. On resting the steel on the charcoal - there aren't any special precautions taken, just jam it in. I don't know about the specific chemical makeup, but charcoal is supposed to add carbon to steel during forging, which can be a good thing.

If making a forge, I've heard that kingsford type charcoal simply will not get hot enough - you either have to make your own charcoal or use coke if it's available. There are some interesting web site out there on how japanese blacksmiths make "earth forges" and on making their own charcoal that you can google that I found absolutely fascinating to read (I don't have any links handy).


Leif is on target with this, but yeah in the greater scheme of things you might add a bit of carbon, but i doubt it is enough to measure.