Some of my Besseys DON'T clamp

[Brian Penning]

It's not due to glue on the bars either.
When I tighten them the handles get tough to turn quite quickly and no matter how much force I apply they don't clamp very tight.
I do see an Allen screw near the mechanism but no clue what it's for.
Any ideas?
TIA

[glenn bradley]

I assume you are talking K-body clamps. The allen set screw is what provides the teeth that grip the serrations on the bar. You can access this screw easily if you remove the plastic stop at the end of the bar and slip the lower jaw off. The screw is not tight on any of mine but is screwed in all the way; just not torqued. Before you go there though; are you saying if you unscrew the handle several turns, press the handle towards the bar to engage the teeth and turn the handle . . . it slips?

[Mark Woodmark]

I have the same problem with some of my Besseys also. Two of them eventually broke between the bar and the jaw face. I am slowly replacing my Besseys with Jet clamps

[Brian Penning]

Before you go there though; are you saying if you unscrew the handle several turns, press the handle towards the bar to engage the teeth and turn the handle . . . it slips?

No, I'm saying the clamp works normally - nothing slips, it simply requires a lot of force to clamp something and even at that it doesn't clamp all that tight.
Thks

[Andy McCormick]

I also have had problems with the K bodys. Andy

[Steve Orbine]

So let me guess, these were made in China ?

[Dan Bowman]

I had the same problem on a couple K bodies. I returned them to Woodcraft and after they convinced themselves the clamps didn't work, they credited the sale price to some new Revo's (one of the guys said "yeah, I've heard about that problem"). So far so good with the new ones.

[Thomas Hotchkin]

I had the same problem on a couple K bodies. I placed some lube on screw threads and socket head works great. Also added a rubber coating to wood handles great improvement over all. Tom

[Mike Conley]

I am having the same problem with two of my clamps.

[Steve Bagi]

Same here. Two of my K bodies just grind when I tighten them. Tried lube, didn't work. I called Bessey and they acted like they never heard of the problem. I was told it was probably due to sawdust in the threads. They also told me they no longer supply replacement part for the K boddies (I asked for a new threaded handle). I'll be buying Jets or Jorgies next time. :(

[Gary Herrmann]

Maybe I've been lucky. I've never had this problem with any of mine.

[Will Blick]

> I placed some lube on screw threads and socket head works great. Also added a rubber coating to wood handles great improvement over all.

.
This is great advise, for all parallel clamps.... I have tested many parallel clamps, and as much as I like K body bessies, (I have about 40) they simply are not well made clamps... you must keep the threads well lubricated, its almost mandatory you add a thicker, tackier grip, which will yield you about 150 - 200 lbs of extra force...and even then, an avg strength man will only achieve about 500 lbs of force, even though they are advertised at 1,000 lbs of force. The new Revo's are no better.... they actually slip worse than the K bodies. Most will drop from 600 lbs to 300 lbs of force within 4 minutes of clamping.... Jets slip even worse.... you should always re-tighten after clamps to hold the force you are trying to achieve. (of course, not all clamp jobs require max. force, consult your glue makers recommendations)

Remarkably, the best of the parallel clamps I have tested are the Stanley Baily's... they achieve the advertised amount of force without tearing your hands apart, or adding on to the handles, 1k lbs, the handles are better than all the big name clamps, no mods required, and they slip the least. I guess because they were late into the game, they never became very popular...

[Joe Jensen]

> I placed some lube on screw threads and socket head works great. Also added a rubber coating to wood handles great improvement over all.

.
This is great advise, for all parallel clamps.... I have tested many parallel clamps, and as much as I like K body bessies, (I have about 40) they simply are not well made clamps... you must keep the threads well lubricated, its almost mandatory you add a thicker, tackier grip, which will yield you about 150 - 200 lbs of extra force...and even then, an avg strength man will only achieve about 500 lbs of force, even though they are advertised at 1,000 lbs of force. The new Revo's are no better.... they actually slip worse than the K bodies. Most will drop from 600 lbs to 300 lbs of force within 4 minutes of clamping.... Jets slip even worse.... you should always re-tighten after clamps to hold the force you are trying to achieve. (of course, not all clamp jobs require max. force, consult your glue makers recommendations)

Remarkably, the best of the parallel clamps I have tested are the Stanley Baily's... they achieve the advertised amount of force without tearing your hands apart, or adding on to the handles, 1k lbs, the handles are better than all the big name clamps, no mods required, and they slip the least. I guess because they were late into the game, they never became very popular...

Cool, how are you measuring the force, do you have a strain guage or something?

[Alan Schaffter]

Cool, how are you measuring the force, do you have a strain guage or something?

Oh, grab the popcorn! I'll let someone else handle it this time

[Brian Penning]

Screw threads = the Handle threads?

[Jim Coffey]

Same here. Sure would like to find a fix.

[Will Blick]

Joe, a basic pressure gauge... 1 sq inch surface area, reads in psi. This is total clamping force at the clamp only, not at the glue line.



http://www.pbase.com/bglick/image/103632137.jpg

[Jim Eller]

As long as we're on the slippin' clamp thing, I have some K-clamps that work fine but I have some of these that slip in almost every position. I purchased four some time ago and three of them slipped so the the supplier sent me four more. Some of those now slip also.

Any fixes for these that anyone knows about??

[Will Blick]

I wish I had a solution for the slipping problem. Unfortunately, I think it would take a re-design of the clamp.... IMO, what is required is a rigid bar like we have now with hard metal, which is required to prevent bending...which under 30" clamps do a decent job at.... (but not the longer ones).... but the underside of the bar, where the movable jaw bites into, must be made of a softer metal.... soft enough to allow a better bite...but not too soft, where it will bite, and then deform the soft metal. This is clearly a difficult problem to solve in a $30 product....

Bar clamps with soft metal iron bars (not the polished nickel bars sold at Rockler) are the best "no slip" clamps you can use. In my tests, they loose 10% of force in 10 minutes...no other clamp has come close to this. I addition, due to their intelligent handle design, can produce 1000 - 1200 lbs of force with destroying your hands... that means one bar clamp is equal to 2 - 3 parallel clamps. There is no substitute for leverage, something not possible with thin round handles.

These iron bars are not glue friendly, as we all know, but they are the most effective clamps I have tested. Since I use fast dry glues, I simply re-tighten my parallel clamps every few minutes.... if I need epoxy type glues that require very long clamp times, I would probably invest in more bar clamps... I never tested them over many hours, its possible they too would start to slip, but I doubt they would slip as bad as the parallel clamps..

[glenn bradley]

As long as we're on the slippin' clamp thing, I have some K-clamps that work fine but I have some of these that slip in almost every position. I purchased four some time ago and three of them slipped so the the supplier sent me four more. Some of those now slip also.

Any fixes for these that anyone knows about??

Jim, those look like Woodline's knock-offs, not K-Body clmaps. Similar though. I have some K-Body clamps from 5 months ago and they work just like the ones from 5 years ago. I know this certainly doesn't help those that are having problems but are the other folks reporting problems using Besseys or knock-offs?

The Bessey's use a threaded allen head screw for teeth; one engages the front edge of the rail and one engages the back edge. Perhaps one of these has fallen out? Here's a few shots from a clamp I have used weekly for many years:

142679142680142681

As stated, none of mine are tight but they are all screwed in flush at the top, they can go deeper but appear to be sorta loose by design. If all surfaces of this screw are shot, it could be replaced. If the screw or the bar have been damaged, I would give some consideration my technique or the proper use of this clamp for the job :). Don't get me wrong, I have many clamps that would fail if I used them for something that the K-body can do easily. There are other clamps in my arsenal that can provide that crushing power if required. The K-bodys are good to around 400 or 500lbs IIRC. HTH.

[Will Blick]

> The K-bodys are good to around 400 or 500lbs IIRC. HTH.


Glenn, this is about right.... although I have gotten some well tuned Bessyes up to about 750 lbs, its painful to the hand...and this is with some extra heavy duty thick overgrips. While 500 lbs seems like a lot of force, it's only 1/2 the amount advertised by Bessey, nonetheless a decent amount of pressure. But remember, if you divide this over a glue area of 10 sq inches, (2" thick boards over 5" between clamps) its only 50 psi at the glue line. So the simple solution, when more clamping pressure is required, is to use more clamps, vs. "pushing" less clamps...... as the less you "push" the clamps, the less they slip, so that is two good reasons not to back down... (less slippage and easier on your hands )

My guess is, clamp makers all try to win the advertising war.... and max. clamping pressure "psi" is always a buzzword, just like MegaPixels in digicams....however, I have never seen a clamp maker advertise slippage at x psi, over 2 minutes, 4 minutes, 10 minutes, etc. This specification is more relevant to how the clamp should be used......

[Will Blick]

Oh, forgot to mention.... I have tested the Woodline copies of the Besseys and immediately returned them... .while the Revo's are far from a perfect clamp (max pressure and slippage), the Woodlines were much inferior.

BTW, I am not picking on Bessey.... Gross Stabil clams were nearly 2x worse than Besseys...and Jets did not perform much better.... And despite what appears as "shortcomings", all in all, for the money we pay for these clamps, you are getting a quality clamp, with the Stanley's leading the pack (in the parallel clamp category, but I like the option of ganging Besseys together for a longer clamp)

As for the thread issue, I have had a few of these as well.... the max pressure the clamp will produce, is partly dependent on the frictionless contract between the threads. some threads are machined better than others. These threads should be kept lubricated to reduce friction.... some new clamps I test of the same make and model, will show variances from, none, to 150 lbs... this is mainly due to the thread friction. Often just adding some teflon lubricant, will increase the clamps output by 150 lbs. (when the threads were dry) The last batch of Revos were fully lubricated from the factory... maybe they have been reading these threads... ;-)

[Rob Sack]

Many of my Bessey clamps also slip, which makes using them difficult to use. What about the Jorgensen version of the K - Bodies?

[Jim Eller]

Glenn,

I said, I do have Bessey's that do not slip, but, these (the one pictured) do.

I thought maybe someone had a cure for the problem.

Thanks,
Jim

[glenn bradley]

Glenn,

I said, I do have Bessey's that do not slip, but, these (the one pictured) do.


Thanks for correcting me Jim. I committed the ultimate sin of responding without reading carefully enough. I'm a dork. :o

[Will Blick]

Since this subject was brought up again.... yesterday, I decided to test a new batch of Revo's for slippage..... I tightened to 600 lbs.... I wanted to check the 10 and 15 minute levels...but never made it back into the shop, this morning, the gauge read 30 lbs, about 24 hrs... for those who work with long cure epoxies, this might be valuable information....

[John Lanciani]

Will,

Just curious, but are you sure that the pressure reduction that you're seeing is the clamp slipping and not a problem with the gauge? Are you able to tighten the clamp to the original indicated pressure after it has decreased without releasing and re-tightening the clamp?

John

[Richard Amabile]

Oh, forgot to mention.... I have tested the Woodline copies of the Besseys and immediately returned them... .while the Revo's are far from a perfect clamp (max pressure and slippage), the Woodlines were much inferior.

BTW, I am not picking on Bessey.... Gross Stabil clams were nearly 2x worse than Besseys...and Jets did not perform much better.... And despite what appears as "shortcomings", all in all, for the money we pay for these clamps, you are getting a quality clamp, with the Stanley's leading the pack (in the parallel clamp category, but I like the option of ganging Besseys together for a longer clamp)

As for the thread issue, I have had a few of these as well.... the max pressure the clamp will produce, is partly dependent on the frictionless contract between the threads. some threads are machined better than others. These threads should be kept lubricated to reduce friction.... some new clamps I test of the same make and model, will show variances from, none, to 150 lbs... this is mainly due to the thread friction. Often just adding some teflon lubricant, will increase the clamps output by 150 lbs. (when the threads were dry) The last batch of Revos were fully lubricated from the factory... maybe they have been reading these threads... ;-)

I have a few of the older Bessey's and a few Revos, but have not used them on more than a few projects. I was considering changing to Jet's because I heard they were better. But, based on what I am reading in this thread, that may not be the case. Recently I was told that the Jorgensen 6000 (old style) clamps were the ones to use when you really needed significant pressure like clamping large pieces of 2 inch stock. Has anyone used these? How do they compare with the others?

[Will Blick]

> Just curious, but are you sure that the pressure reduction that you're seeing is the clamp slipping and not a problem with the gauge?


When I run this same experiment with a pair of vice grips, there is virtually NO pressure loss... the gauge is quite simple, its not failing....




> Are you able to tighten the clamp to the original indicated pressure after it has decreased without releasing and re-tightening the clamp?


Yes, of course..... that is why I constantly re-tighen every few minutes during a 20 minute glue-up.... unless you have clamps that don't slip, then this should be considered mandatory....



> But, based on what I am reading in this thread, that may not be the case. Recently I was told that the Jorgensen 6000 (old style) clamps were the ones to use when you really needed significant pressure like clamping large pieces of 2 inch stock.


I only have a few Jorgensens.... they perform as well as the K Bodies, maybe a bit better.... as mentioned, and I know its a hard pill for many of us to swallow, but if you want to use parallel clamps (vs. bar clamps) and you want max. pressure, nothing comes close to the Stanley Baily's..... they nearly double the force of the all the big name clamps... and....they slip the least.... here is a Stanley after 4 hrs, it started at almost 1200 lbs.


http://www.pbase.com/bglick/image/103632192.jpg


BTW, I am not the only one who found this little gem, a few of the ww magazines also tested them and agreed in general with my findings. And whats really strange is, they are no longer on Amazon, they only sell the "F" Bailey clamps now? About a year ago, "Big Lots" stores were blowing out the Bailey Parallel clamps for $10, if there was one local, I would have cleaned them out :-) I thought Stanley was closing out the line of parallel clamps....but I see them on the Sears web site... (full price) so I guess not......


http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?TYPE=CATEGORY&CATEGORY=Parallel+Bar+Clamps

[Jim Eller]

Thanks for correcting me Jim. I committed the ultimate sin of responding without reading carefully enough. I'm a dork. :o

Dear Dork,

Bless you my son. You are forgiven:):)

Jim

[Alan Schaffter]

I'll say this just once-

The only way to properly, and accurately test these kinds of clamps using a pressure gauge to see if they are really losing pressure, slipping, the bar/frame/mechanism is deforming, or if the vinyl/plastic jaws are just compressing is:

(1) Remove the vinyl/plastic jaw faces (you may also need to insert hardened metal pads if the metal jaw faces are ductile.
(2) Put a pressure measuring device (gauge or load cell) between metal jaw faces (or pads).
(3) AND, THIS IS IMPORTANT- put a precision micrometer between the metal jaw faces.
(4) Crank the handle until the pressure applied reaches something less than the rated max pressure.
(5) Leave it for awhile and check you readings.

If the force decreases, but the distance does not increase, you have a bad gauge or a bad experimental setup. Without the steps above using a pressure gauge between the vinyl/plastic jaw faces tells you absolutely NOTHING. It takes almost no deflection of the reference surfaces to generate a completely erroneous pressure gauge reading.

If you don't do all the steps, you are not measuring ANYTHING useful and your results mean NOTHING- it is engineering and physics, nothing more.

The big question, is why does this matter? When do you apply clamps to a glue-up with the forces mentioned, and when do you not turn the handles a little more to account for squeeze out and deformation of the wood? For pressure to be constant the item under pressure must not move OR COMPRESS at all. Again, physics and engineering.

[Will Blick]

Alan, your first post in this thread read......

> Oh, grab the popcorn! I'll let someone else handle it this time


Did you run out popcorn? After your persistence in the last thread, I knew damn well you could not live-up to your post. And you still fail to realize, last time when you started this same argument, that "someone" you were searching for to defend your position, he never surfaced. Instead, other posters stated the obvious, and they respectfully disagreed with your position. But it was obvious you could not be convinced.....once you took a stand, you defended it with your life.... this is very common in engineering, I see it quite often at my day job, but you take it to a new level. So, after the last debacle..... your decision was, start it all over again???

OK, here we go again.......


I feared responding to this thread, knowing you would offer the same arguments as before, which are NOT applicable. And while I have no intentions of trying to convince you of anything, as I have encountered many people like your before. You have a lot of knowledge, but loose sight of the big picture. However, for the benefit of fellow ww's I feel compelled to "once again" dispute your positions.... argggggg.....



> The only way to properly, and accurately test these kinds of clamps using a pressure gauge to see if they are really losing pressure, slipping, the bar/frame/mechanism is deforming, or if the vinyl/plastic jaws are just compressing is:


This is where you have refuse to comprehend the key issue at play here. (and you did the same in the last thread) The point is, for ww, we don't care which of the above shortcoming exists in a clamp. All we are concerned about is, when we clamp two pieces of wood together, what pressure are we achieving when we tighten the clamp and how much pressure is remaining between those two pieces of wood over a period of time..... It's that simple Alan..... why do you insist on making it more complicated?? It's the ol adage, "can't see the forest through the trees." Yes, I can further refine this test, to find out EXACTLY where the shortcomings of each clamp is, but I simply don't care. I want a clamp that can achieve a desired amount of pressure, and hold it for a certain period of time, get it?

And also, did you ever come to realize, that both ww magazines, one being FWW, did the exact same tests as I did.....those dumb editors just like me, were simply interested in the clamps performance...they were not interested in dissecting the exact causes of the shortcomings..... have you written them yet with your surpreme knowledge and explain how their articles were senseless? If you do, please be sure to cc me on the correspondence, I need a good laugh.


(1) Remove the vinyl/plastic jaw faces (you may also need to insert hardened metal pads if the metal jaw faces are ductile.


Again, you are trying to isolate a possible shortcoming, i.e. the cause of pressure loss...but my question is, why? This is how we use the clamps, so therefore, this is how they should be tested. (as a side note to others, as I mentioned in the previous thread, I did remove the the plastic faces, and got the same result, but its a moot point)


(3) AND, THIS IS IMPORTANT- put a precision micrometer between the metal jaw faces.


This will isolate the jaw slippage .... what is the value of knowing this? If we knew the jaws slid on the bar, creating a larger gap, what would we do about it? Would we re-engineer our $25 clamps to solve these problems? Lets get real here...



> (4) Crank the handle until the pressure applied reaches something less than the rated max pressure. (5) Leave it for awhile and check you readings.


Yes, you got this part right, and this is exactly what I do.....




> If the force decreases, but the distance does not increase, you have a bad gauge or a bad experimental setup.


As mentioned in the previous thread Alan, my gauge has been tested twice, its within +/-3% of accuracy, is that close enough for this purpose?



> Without the steps above using a pressure gauge between the vinyl/plastic jaw faces tells you absolutely NOTHING. It takes almost no deflection of the reference surfaces to generate a completely erroneous pressure gauge reading.


????? I disagree with this, and explained previously, I tested this as well, the problem is not in the jaw faces...but you probably forgot. With a gauge used in this test, which has been tested against a standard, (which mine has been tested by Ashcroft), the gauge will tell you 2 things:


1) What pressure the clamp can exert with avg. human strength.

2) How much slippage occurs in the clamp over time.


Those are the only two issues that matter to us!!!! Whether it's bar deflection (which its not in these simple test, due to the short distance of the jaw faces, as seen in the pix) or if the acme threads are slightly reversing (most do not) or the jaw is slipping on the bar (the major culprit) or face deflection (NOT!)....


I want to keep this thread on track....but for the record, when the jaws spread apart much further, the total force of the clamp is reduced due to bar deflection (true with pipe clamps as well as the heavy duty Bessey F clamps)



> If you don't do all the steps, you are not measuring ANYTHING useful and your results mean NOTHING


I "would" agree with you Alan, if: the goal was to start a year long R&D project, to test each and every brand of clamp, and set up a benchmark test for each of the parameters, similar to what the ww magazines did..... and then produce a detailed report on what % of the total slippage came from each of the variables. However Alan, that is not the purpose here, instead, I use this test to compare clamp A vs. clamp B. The results are relative.... get it?



> The big question, is why does this matter?


Two primary reasons Alan....

1) When some of us glue up, we want a certain amount of pressure at the glue line, (based on the glue manufacturers recommendations)....in order to know this, we need to know how much pressure our clamps can generate. If you use clamps that generate 1/3 the force, you need 3x as many clamps.... so is that relevant? It is to me, but maybe not to you....get it ???


2) The pressure requirement is suppose to remain at the glue joint for a certain period of time, based on the glue type used. How do we know if the clamp holds the required pressure over 20 minutes? 1 hour? 24 hours? We test it Alan...its that simple......


It surprises me a person of your superior knowledge even has to ask this question... it seems obvious to the avg. person....


OK, I pray you don't turn this thread into a debacle like you did in the previous thread, but if history repeats itself, this thread will be shut down by the mods......

Why the heck did I ever leave lurker mode ? sheeeesh...... I sure see why many posters stop contributing....

[Paul Ryan]

Will,

I have no reason to question your findings. Quite honestly I find it suprising that your guage tells of slippage and lose of pressure. My only question, if my bessy's slip and loose pressure why after they have clamped something for hours, days, and sometimes even weeks without being removed are they still very tight when I go to removed them? Again I am not saying I don't believe you, but why are they still tight if they are loosing pressure? Usually I dont need to tighten them very much, just enough to get some squeeze out and have the joint closed fully.

[Will Blick]

Paul, there is a chance you have minimal slippage. I could be a result of not over tightening them.. the less you tighten them, the less they slip. The greater you tighten them, the more potential they have for slippage.

If you clamp to full taught, then the next day, you can not further tighten them, I would suggest you are experience no slippage or very little slippage.... is that what you are saying? If so, those are some good clamps... no sarcasm there.... I have had the same make / model clamps, and some perform better than others in total pressure and slippage... The Stanleys consistently being the best in pressure and slippage....

[Alan Schaffter]

Will, I just couldn't let your snake oil pitch stand. Sorry, but you continue to miss my point- there are two absolutely different issues here!

First, it is not whether these clamps are slipping, creeping, deforming, etc. and for that reason not applying the same force over time. They may very well be doing that- the big issue is it can't be measured the way you continue to incorrectly attempt to do and tell everyone about. I don't care if your gauge came from the Bureau of Standards- Using it they way you do is just simply BAD engineering, bad physics, and just wrong!!!! Tell everyone you think a particular clamp slips, bends, doesn't apply consistent force, etc. because you observed the head move on the bar or whatever, not that you measured it- because you DIDN'T!!! Don't try to convince people you are correct by showing them a picture of a pressure gauge!!!!

Answer me this- if you were to clamp a glue-up, with a theoretical "perfect" clamp that doesn't slip, bend, etc. etc. and you put a load cell or your gauge between one board and one clamp jaw, do you think the clamp will be applying the same amount of force, as indicated by the load cell or gauge, when the glue is cured, as it does in the beginning? If you do, you are absolutely wrong again.

First as you apply glue to most woods, the fibers expand slightly from moisture. After you have clamped the parts, eventually the moisture leaves, the glue sets, and the wood fibers contract. Also, the glue, just about every glue, including epoxies, will contract as it cures- what you are left with is a clamped object that is thinner, maybe by only a few thousands, but thinner. The end result is that the indicated force will be less, maybe a lot less when measured with a load cell or gauge.

It you disagree with either of these two FACTS, then you need to spend some time studying how force is measured, how gauges work, and the properties of materials (metal, plastic, vinyl, wood and adhesives).

As to these clamps, some are better than others for sure, but the differences won't affect a glue-up done carefully and correctly. Many glue-ups, especially long grain to long grain joints can be done satisfactorily without clamps- using the slip technique. Except for curved laminations where clamps are necessary to overcome the tension in the wood, excessive clamping pressure should never be used, and if it IS needed, it is likely because of poor craftsmanship.

If you are trying to use some theoretical glue manufacturer's PSI recommendation and trying to compute that for a particular glue up with a double conversion of clamp pressure, over clamp jaw area, over glue up area, you are probably the only woodworker spending unnecessary time trying to doing so. Properly cover the parts with glue, clamp for consistent squeeze out, then as the glue cures and the glue and wood fibers contract, give the clamp handles another twist if needed. Lurking is a good idea.

[Will Blick]

I expected nothing less from you Alan.... your defensiveness is relentless....


> If you are trying to use some theoretical glue manufacturer's PSI recommendation and trying to compute that for a particular glue up with a double conversion of clamp pressure, over clamp jaw area, over glue up area, you are probably the only woodworker spending unnecessary time trying to doing so.


This babble demonstrates just how confused you are on this entire topic. And I won't be the one to educate you either, call the glue companies tech support ask them how they do it.... ahhhh, but I know, they are wrong too...they spent million$ in R&D and yet Alan can correct them as well.... it seems everyone in the world practices voo doo engineering, except you Alan? Seem odd? Did you ever write the letter to FWW magazine and blast the editors of the magazine for performing the exact same tests that I have ? Why don't you ever respond to this Alan? I guess us engineers are all wrong, and you are the only one that understands any of this? Your positions make no sense....



> Will, I just couldn't let your snake oil pitch stand.

Its the same snake oil delivered by Franklin Glue engineers, FWW magazine and Wood Magazine. So who is delivering snake oil here Alan..??? Just because you don't understand something, does not make it false, you have to grasp this sooner or later....




> Answer me this- if you were to clamp a glue-up, with a theoretical "perfect" clamp that doesn't slip, bend, etc. etc. and you put a load cell or your gauge between one board and one clamp jaw, do you think the clamp will be applying the same amount of force, as indicated by the load cell or gauge, when the glue is cured, as it does in the beginning? If you do, you are absolutely wrong again.


I never suggested it would.... but its a question of degree Alan... you are so caught up in trying to pitch your position, you defy common sense... If I clamp up 8 Parallel clamps at 500 lbs of pressure each, and 4 hours later they are at 200 lbs.... is this because of changes in the wood? Glue drying? HUH? No Alan, this is called slippage, its that simple.... I have some high end metal vises for used for milling machines....when I clamp a wood glue-up in them occasionally, guess what? The next day, the gauge is reading within 5 - 10% of what it did when I tightened it. Why? I guess its bad testing? Bad gauge? Bad technique? sheeeeessh.... It's a $700 clamp, and there is NO slipping.... the technique I am using, FWW is using, and TiteBond uses, are the same.... its only you pursuing this senseless babble.



> It you disagree with either of these two FACTS, then you need to spend some time studying how force is measured, how gauges work, and the properties of materials


Been doing it for 30 years Alan..... but what we are discussing here, a bit of common sense is all that is required, which you are obviously lacking in...




>Except for curved laminations where clamps are necessary to overcome the tension in the wood, excessive clamping pressure should never be used, and if it IS needed, it is likely because of poor craftsmanship.


You better start advising the glue engineers at Titebond of your theories Alan, because they would argue this point.... (or just hang the phone up on you) I have spoken to them for many years at trade shows. They have researched this for years, I trust their research vs. your pointless posts. But I am sure you are more qualified than the glue engineers as well, right? For me, I will trust them over your babble... call me a fool. And yes, once you finish this ridiculous rant, I will re enter lurking mode, I suggest you do the same, you have tainted too many threads..... rarely if ever adding anything of value....

[Will Blick]

Alan, simple question, which I am sure you will avoid answering..... while your engineering knowledge is limited, your ability to dance around the real issues is superb.....

I run a test clamp A vs. clamp B.

I glue two identical boards together in each clamp.

Clamp A I tighten to 500 lbs with the gauge in place, in 8 hours, it reads 475 lbs.

Clamp B, I also tighten to 500 lbs with same gauge in place, in 8 hours it reads 150 lbs.

My conclusion is, Clamp A is a better clamp to use.

Based on your position, your conclusion is, there is no conclusion that can be drawn from this test. Did I get it right? :-)

[Will Blick]

> Nope, no conclusion because of a problem with the pronoun


oh, this is getting comical....now the problem is with a pronoun? hee hee hee......



> and the procedure.


geee, thats odd, you could have explained what was wrong with the procedure, but you didn't? I wonder why? hmmmm... maybe because you had no good reason? :-) The truth can be painful, huh....



> A little bit of knowledge and shop savvy and the problems will go away.

more stray statements, that offers no support of your position...... once again Alan, I give credit where credit is due, know one can wiggle out of jam like you.....sheeeesh, fabulous work.....



> Another hobby, maybe?


Yes, I think you should consider becoming a writer of science fiction books, you are off to a great start with these threads! You got the make-up.... great imagination, you can fill the pages with babble, and never provide any substance! ;-)

[Alan Schaffter]

Alan, simple question, which I am sure you will avoid answering..... while your engineering knowledge is limited, your ability to dance around the real issues is superb.....

I run a test clamp A vs. clamp B.

I glue two identical boards together in each clamp.

Clamp A I tighten to 500 lbs with the gauge in place, in 8 hours, it reads 475 lbs.

Clamp B, I also tighten to 500 lbs with same gauge in place, in 8 hours it reads 150 lbs.

My conclusion is, Clamp A is a better clamp to use.

Based on your position, your conclusion is, there is no conclusion that can be drawn from this test. Did I get it right? :-)

Nope, no conclusion because of a problem with the pronoun and the procedure. A little bit of knowledge and shop savvy and the problems will go away. Another hobby, maybe?

Oh, and Franklin says for original Titebond:

"Required clamping pressure Enough to bring joints tightly together (generally, 100-150 psi for softwoods, 125-175 psi for medium woods and 175-250 psi for hardwoods)."

And you are worried if the clamps don't generate 500-1000# !!! And as I said- what woodworker is measuring that pressure besides you? Are you getting ready to market Blick Clampo-meters so you can dial in 175 lbs.? Oh, gee I better not clamp medium wood today, my clamps are only cranking out 123 psi!?!?!?!?

[Will Blick]

> "Required clamping pressure Enough to bring joints tightly together (generally, 100-150 psi for softwoods, 125-175 psi for medium woods and 175-250 psi for hardwoods)."


OK, your copy n paste skills are good, thats a great start Alan....



> And you are worried if the clamps don't generate 500-1000# !!! And as I said- what woodworker is measuring that pressure besides you?


Oh boy, but now you trip and stumble over the fundamentals of pressure and force over area. And yet, you preached how intelligent you are in this area? sheeeeesh.... here is the basics in a simple example, maybe this might help ya Alan.... (and hopefully not embarrass you too bad)

you glue two 48" boards together, 2" thick. 48 * 2 = 96 sq inches of glue line.... ya with me?


Now, lets shoot for the low end of the Titebond number you quoted, 125 psi.... 96 * 125 = 12,000 lbs of total force, OK?


Lets use clamps that can only generate 300 lbs of force, 12,000 / 300 = 40 clamps. This is according to Titebond, right Alan? Ya still with me ?

Now, lets say you use bar clamps at 1,200 lbs of force each.... you will use 1200/300 = 4 x less clamps, or 10 clamps. Not bad, huh.... makes a glue up much more feasible, huh. Does any of this make sense now? Do you see why having basic knowledge of your tools can be useful to get in the ballpark? That is all we are trying to do here....

OK, hopefully the embarrassment this caused, will end your posts to this thread.....or will your "wiggle" skills over ride your common sense?

[Will Blick]

And just to be clear Alan, cause so far, nothing has come easy ....

I don't measure the pressure on my glue-ups as you insinuated... there is no need to...... I know approx. the force each clamp type can exert, so once they are tested initially, I can do the math in my head, and come close enough to the number of clamps required.... can you believe it is all this easy ?

[Van Huskey]

OK I am not an engineer, don't play one on TV, although I was a combat engineer for a spell in the employment of a major merchant of force but all that did was teach me how to destroy the painstaking work of engineers at a speed of about 8,040 m/s.

The only issue I keep coming back to is one I haven't seen addressed here and it well may be a non-issue but I hope it gets addressed before this thread is locked, while although not a fortune teller either I can see in its future.

I can not see how big of a surface area the gauge has where it rests on the surface pad of the clamp. This seems important to me because the surface area on a parallel clamp is about 1.5 in^2 on a 3/4" thick glue up, I assume the surface area of the gauge is significantly less. I basically understand that it is still PSI if the gauge is properly designed no matter what size pad is in contact with the surface BUT the plastic pad will deform more in this small area than the larger area of contact in an actual glueup senario. This would allow a clamp with a rock hard pad to appear to perform better than a clamp with more deformable pads. It doesn't totally nullify the readings but it seems to speak to the degree of claimed "slippage".

I like a good academic discussion but I feel this is a case of much ado about nothing, you know some serious sound and fury kinda stuff. I have no question that my parallel clamps have significant pressure still on a joint after 24 or 48 hours and I have never had a joint fail where I thought it had anything to do with clamping pressure, but in the end enquiring minds just can't help but ask.

To Alan and Will I know what it is like to be a dog with a bone on a forum, I tend to be a bull in a china shop when I am sure I am right but one thing I have learned to keep a forum more civil is to just avoid using the other persons name, when you are quoting their post everyone including them knows who you are talking to, there is just something about someone that doesn't know you calling you by a familiar name when the discussion is devisive, kinda like a friend of my who likes to call people "buddy" when egging them on. A good friend on another forum told me once to never call anyone a name or use an adjective when addressing them that would make you wanna hit a guy if he said it to your wife or mother, pretty good advice for forums and real life, I do wish I was capable of heeding it all the time myself!

In the end this is a good and useful discussion until someone gets their eye poked out. :D

[Will Blick]

Hi Van


Thanks or the humor, I needed it :-)


> I can not see how big of a surface area the gauge has where it rests on the surface pad of the clamp.


It is exactly 1 sq inch, hence why its mated to a gauge that reads in psi. And yes, this is important..... but accounted for when the gauges are built.



> BUT the plastic pad will deform more in this small area than the larger area of contact in an actual glueup senario.


I thought the same thing....till I started tested them. The clamp makers did an excellent job with the jaw face material. The faces do not deform, or if they do, its so little, its negligible. As mentioned in the previous thread, I have removed the jaw faces on some clamps and get the same results.... Initially I put some steel inserts over the jaw faces, results are nearly identical. The problem of slippage is mostly with the movable jaw sliding on the bar. In the previous thread, I showed how Rockler pipe clamps (very nice design) slipped 600 lbs in 2 minutes, when used with the polished nickel bars they sell with the clamps. This had to be an oversight from Rockler...... the movable jaw would not "bite" the pipe at max. pressure.... the clamps easily generated 1200 lbs of force due to the ideal handle design..... I changed the pipe to black iron..



> I have no question that my parallel clamps have significant pressure still on a joint after 24 or 48 hours and I have never had a joint fail where I thought it had anything to do with clamping pressure,


Glue-ups have a wide range of applications.... quite often with small moldings, I use rubber bands, or blue painters tape as my clamps.... and I never had a failure either... yep, glue is amazingly strong. Not all joints require the glue to perform at its max. holding capacity, or have an invisible glue line. . You have to evaluate if the joint will receive pressure at the glue line... a good example is a M&T, none of this discussion is relevant to a joint like this, due to the force on the joint is at "wood to wood" vs. "at the glue line." A good fit is more relevant than clamp pressure.


The most obvious application where a glue joint is vulnerable is table-top glue ups, where a board can receive pressure right at the glue line.... and often with no support below it. In a case like this, it makes sense to maximize the glues holding capacity. And this is what glue manufacturers test.... Having insufficient clamping pressure can reduce the glues ability to hold by 90% (based on glue manufacture testing, not mine).... whether this will cause a failure is dependent on its application....as mentioned, decorative moldings with no pressure, have no reason to fail, other than the stresses of wood movement due to changes in humidity.... but if molding is glued with the grain, movement is not an issue... So some common sense still needs to be applied to all this. But that does not dismiss the purpose of my clamp tests.... 1) see the max. force a clamp can produce, and 2) how long the clamp can hold the force. This information is relevant for "which clamps to buy" and how best to apply them when gluing.


There is also another very significant reason for suitable glue pressure.... and its to produce an invisible glue line. The is specially true with longer boards (again, such as a table-top), as the manufacturers suggested clamping pressure is not really required for the glue itself, but to over come the woods desire to deform after milling.. Franklin engineers advised me of some of their testing which I found quite interesting.... if edges were jointed and glued up within less than an hour, the required clamping pressure can be as low as 25 - 50 psi....but within an hour, the wood moves just enough to require the higher clamping pressures to overcome the woods slight deformation at the glue line. Since the glue makers are aware most glue ups never occur this fast after milling, their pressure recommendations are based on the longer "mill to glue-up" times which are the norm. Also, the longer the board, the more deformation occurs over the length. To simplify, glue makers suggest an average pressure for most applications, otherwise you will end up with a complex matrix of mill time, vs. glue line depth vs. pressure on boards, vs. wood type (hard or soft), etc, etc.


Your "forum" advise is very fair and impartial. I agree... and I was at fault in that area, I guess I could not stop myself.... I just hate being stacked for no good reason. It was after a 15 hr day, and I was stunned the last thread on this subject, where the poster made the same arguments, did not lay all this to rest.....but like a fungus spore, it germinated again, in the identical manner. I am embarrassed to get involved in such crazy exchanges....it happened only twice to me on this forum.... the last time with the same poster, over this same issue... which is why I, like others, simply stop contributing.... why? You have some interesting information, you try to contribute it, and this happens. I have learned from years of forum participation, its human nature, and IMO, its what destroys forums, or at least reduces valuable contributions, cause who wants to deal with this? I will say SMC is still one of the better forums in this regard. But still, I have seen many excellent contributors fade away on this forum through the years...

OTOH, when someone makes a contribution with interesting information, the first thing I post is a "thank you" for taking the time to share that information with the group. The last thing I would do in life, or on a forum, is to attack a person for being so generous sharing the information. If I have a question, I simply ask, I don't go after the contributor who spent valuable time and energy sharing information that would have been hard to find otherwise. But it's obvious, not everyone shares my approach...its unfortunate, because most forums end up with more 100 people with questions and at best, only a few with valuable responses. I apologize to the forum for defending myself, it's just my nature - I hate being a door mat :-)

[Mike Henderson]

Will,

I have no reason to question your findings. Quite honestly I find it suprising that your guage tells of slippage and loss of pressure. My only question, if my bessy's slip and lose pressure why after they have clamped something for hours, days, and sometimes even weeks without being removed are they still very tight when I go to removed them? Again I am not saying I don't believe you, but why are they still tight if they are losing pressure? Usually I dont need to tighten them very much, just enough to get some squeeze out and have the joint closed fully.
Like Paul, I've never noticed any loss of pressure in my Bessy clamps over time. Of course, I wasn't looking for it either. But I've left panels in clamp over night and in the morning, it took some real force to unscrew the clamps. When clamping, I generally tighten my clamps as tight as I can by hand.

I'll start looking for signs of loosening after the clamps are left tight for some time. I do lubricate the screw threads.

Mike

[Paul Ryan]

Like Paul, I've never noticed any loss of pressure in my Bessy clamps over time. Of course, I wasn't looking for it either. But I've left panels in clamp over night and in the morning, it took some real force to unscrew the clamps. When clamping, I generally tighten my clamps as tight as I can by hand.

I'll start looking for signs of loosening after the clamps are left tight for some time. I do lubricate the screw threads.

Mike

I am guilty like Mike, I haven't expected my clamps to slip. But I can remember many occasions that it took more force to unscrew the clamp than I expected.

I guess I was always taught not to use any more force than necessary to close the joint and have some squeeze out.

I always clamp, clean up the squeeze out, check the joint, and recheck the tension on the clamps, 9 times out of 10 the clamps don't need to be any tighter. But after the last check of the clamps that happens right away, I don't inspect the clamps until I loosen them. And I cant remeber a time when my bessy's felt looser than I would have expected them.

I can remeber a few times when using my old black pipes with pony clamps, when they felt much looser when unscrewing them, than I expected. I quess I have never expected my clamps to slip unless I cranked the hell out of them, and I generally never felt I needed to do that. And that us usally a recipie for disaster when using pipe clamps.

Thanks for the info Will,

But I think this maybe a situation where I will end up wishing I didn't know that most clamps slip.

[phil harold]

so where is the clamp slipping?

on the bar

or

the threads

I once made the mistake of lubing my threads of my C-clamps with a graphite compound

they sure moved easier but you could watch them unloosen in about a minute

[Alan Schaffter]

>



Absolutely, my last response, and nothing but the facts:

Glue area computation- correct.

Titebond®-based recommended gluing "force" computation correct (but not needed!)

Number of clamps required computation- incorrect. Incorrect assumption.

The usable clamping area of an old style Bessey K-body® comes to about 3.375" X 1.5" +/- which yields 5.0625 sq. in. I don't know the Bessey quoted figures for the K-body® but if you use 1500 pounds (NOT PSI!), the "Nominal Clamping Force", for the Revo® and the usable clamping area you get 1500/5.0625 = 296 PSI! If the number I have seen elsewhere for the K-body® is correct you get only 1000/5.0625 = 198 PSI. Surprise, surprise! It is even less than shown on the gauge! I don't have a Revo® to measure, but Bessey states the "parallel clamping surface" (whatever that is) of the Revo is "30 % larger . . than previous K‐Body®" using that yields 1500/6.75 = 222 psi. In any case, both figures are more than sufficient for this glue-up.

Since the pressure is applied over the entire usable jaw face the absolute maximum number of clamps needed would be 96 sq. in. / 5.0625 sq. in. = 19 (K-body®) clamps; or 96 sq. in. / 6.75 sq. in = 14 (Revo®) clamps. Since the clamping pressure for both clamps exceeds the requirements of this glue-up we don't even need that many of each. But this demonstrates the old adage, "You can never have enough clamps." Again, clamp it for a consistent glue squeeze out- unless you want to spend a bunch of money to buy and trust these Clamping-Force-Indicators at McFeeleys :D http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/BT-2034/Clamping-Force-Indicator

http://www.mcfeelys.com/img/clamping-force-indicator-BT-2034.jpg

For many reasons "clamping pressure" can only be accurately measured in the laboratory (refs: You can Google it like I did and find MANY, MANY citations). Also, "clamping force" is usually "derived" from torque. A clamp's theoretical ability to create force is subjective because the torque is applied by average "humans" (I haven't found one yet) and the conversion of that torque to clamping force is affected by the pitch (tpi and mechanical advantage), surface area, coefficient of friction, lubrication, dirt, etc. of the ACME thread leadscrew, the follower, AND the ball socket on the end- as FWW and other magazines have found out when attempting to test clamps. Bottom line, a manufacturer's figures for "Nominal Clamping Force" or "Clamping Pressure" are VERY SUBJECTIVE.

Thanks to everyone for the PM's of support!

[Mike Henderson]

I think maybe you're making an incorrect assumption about the area of the clamp faces. You're correct about the area, but when we clamp up 4/4 wood, the area of contact is generally less than 1" by the width of the clamp face. I didn't do the math but it seems you'd have to use the force and that area to get the psi - not the area of the whole clamp face.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your calculations.

Mike

[Will Blick]

If this was just a personal issue, I would walk....but your never ending desire to prove your position has led to more flawed reasoning. But in all fairness, at least this time you waited b4 posting, and you did a little research after the previous embarassment, and you are much further along than you were when you started your rant. For that, I commend you.

First, you state the pressure reccomended by Titebond is not required. Once again, even though you have demonstrated elementary knowledge at best, you still tout to know more than a company that has been making glue forever, and has invested millions in research....this says a lot about your "mode of operation" ...... everyone can draw their own conclusions on this....


Now, here is where your last major flaw is.... the clamp can yield a certain amount of force, and yes, we all know its dependent on if Grandma tightens it, or Conan the Barbian tightens them, but lets deal with an avg male, with avg strengthm, like me, and all the guys from the magazines who tested these clamps. Keep in mind, we are not trying to be accurate to within 10%, instead, the goal is to eliminate your 500% errors with your math... so lets rid the side-stepping you have attempted with "subjective"... (I expect nothing less from you)


the advertised clamp force from Bessey is slightly over stated.... they claim 1000 lbs for the K Body...I would suggest, to achieve this, you would probably break a few handles (don't ask me how I know this ;-). I used realistic numbers of an avg person tigtening the clamp. I am not superman, but no wimp either... So the manufacturers numbers and my numbers are close enough, as alll manufacturers stretch the truth on their claims. This force represents TOTAL force, not the force per sq in.... OK?

Now, here is your flaw.... that total force from the clamp, say 600 lbs, is fully transfered to the glue joint. So if you have 6" sq inches of glue joint for that clamp, you have 100 psi of pressure AT THE GLUE JOINT! It does not matter the area of the jaws, because 100% of the clamp force is transfered to the joint! get it? If you don't get it, call the 800 phone number on a bottle of Titebond, and call tech support, that should quickly end your posts on this topic....but would you do that? Heck no...


So assuming the Revos could acheive 1500 lbs of force, the 12000 lbs required over the glue joint in the previous example, would = 8 Revo clamps. Its that simple, once again, you are over thinking this .... once again sir,

(Square inches of joint * psi required) / force per clamp=

number of clamps required.

And just to be clear, the Revos I tested, about 6 of them, can achieve NO more force than the K bodies, another bit of advertised hype.

The other point of confusion you seem to have is psi vs. force. In the gauge I use, when it registers 600 psi, this also equate to 600 lbs of force (or pressure). Why? Because the gauage has a 1 sq inch surface area, so in this case the two units of measure are identical. it does not matter if you double the surface area of the jaw face, the gauge is still reading the total force the clamp is generating, which will not change regardless of the jaw size....

Now, take a deep breath, do some more research, speak to some glue engineers, and then report back...otherwise, your responses represent that of a troll... needlessly pushing an agenda, because you can't accept being wrong and refuse to do some research....that is what all this comes down to in the end.... now get to work before you continue yoru rant....

I patiently await....

[Alan Schaffter]

I think maybe you're making an incorrect assumption about the area of the clamp faces. You're correct about the area, but when we clamp up 4/4 wood, the area of contact is generally less than 1" by the width of the clamp face. I didn't do the math but it seems you'd have to use the force and that area to get the psi - not the area of the whole clamp face.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your calculations.

Mike

I just measured the area of the jaw from the front of the bar to the tip, not the area on each side or behind the bar.

On a long narrow glue up I often put the jaws and bar parallel to the edge of the board which yields a little smaller usable jaw face of .625" X 5.125" = 3.2 sq. in. +/- (again, this is for the K-body®), but I put clamps on both edges which compensates. Bottom line, unless you add "T" handles, hydraulics, etc. to increase the mechanical advantage you aren't going to get much more out of them.

[Will Blick]

Mike, I wrote the simplified formula above...the jaw area is not relevant, because 100% of the clamps force is transfered to the glue joint....

Think of it this way.... lets say the jaw face is 4 sq inches. And the clamp can generate 600 lbs of total force (not psi) when the gauge is in the clamp.


Now we replace the jaws with 8 sq inches of jaw face material.... we put the gauge back in the clamp and test.... the total force will still be 600 lbs of force, because the clamp can not generate more force because we added face area to the clamp.

The issue of force and psi are often confused. In this case, Force = total energy (lbs of pressure), while psi = total energy wthin 1 sq inch. Glue makers specify the amount of pressure required in a sq inch, because they have no way of knowing how big the glue joint will be. From there, you work backwards to the total clamping pressure required... of course, this is all academic, its so simple, once you get used to the relationship.... HTH

[Will Blick]

> Bottom line, unless you add "T" handles, hydraulics, etc. to increase the mechanical advantage you aren't going to get much more out of them


You are missing the point again.... its not trying to get more force, its figuring out how many clamps are required.

[Alan Schaffter]

First, you state the pressure reccomended by Titebond is not required.

I patiently await....

Despite what I said, I'll add just one more post-

Your reading comprehension is as bad as your logic and understanding of engineering- all are seriously flawed!

What I said was "Titebond®-based recommended gluing "force" computation correct (but not needed!)" Not anything recommended by Franklin, your computation was totally irrelevant!

I could go on and on, but frankly I have better things to do. Let my know how things are under the bridge!

Moderators you are welcome to close or delete this entire thread because it contains little correct, useful or actionable information.

[Brian Penning]

Jeez....all I wanted was help on my clamps not properly tightening....
Glad at least that I'm not alone with THAT problem.

[Van Huskey]

Jeez....all I wanted was help on my clamps not properly tightening....
Glad at least that I'm not alone with THAT problem.

You have been



Thread jacked!

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Hey Brian,

Did not read all of this thread for obvious reasons but we have about 30+ Bessey Clamps and all of the old style have pretty much failed by either the grooves smoothing out, handles breaking, cast aluminum joint breaking from defects and even a few with worn stop pins so that the slide part of the clamps falls off when held upside down. Bessey was good and swapped out some because of the bad casting but I have about a dozen now that don't work and will be contacting them again to see if these can be upgraded to the new style. So if you have the new style with the black lever at the bottom, not sure if anything can be done but if you have the old style, no black lever on bottom, then you should talk to a sales manager at Bessey and see what they can do for you.

PS- this kinda reminds me of the stuff you see on Nat Geo that show 2 males mountain goats ramming their horns to show dominance for the female. One eventually wins but they both probably have big headaches later and one eventually gets the girl. No girl here to win over but probably some aching heads:eek:.

[Jim Eller]

OK Boys!!

Take it outside!!!:D

[Will Blick]

I commend you Alan, you bowed out the only way you know how to....throw stones, offer NOTHING to back up your severely weakened position, and suggest the mods delete the thread. For your sake, to save embarassment, I understand your position on this one. Now get back under the bridge, dinner will be served shortly.... again, congrats, this is a milestone for you....progress was made...

[Paul Ryan]

I want to be the 1st one to say I hope this thread isn't deleted. If the mods want to close it I understand. But I think there is some good information here. From both camps. Both fighters seem to make compelling cases for their sides. I guess I can see both points of view and will draw my own conclusions.