G1023S is no more

[Andrew W. Thomas]

I finally dropped the hammer and ordered the Grizzly G1023S this morning and received this email around noon today. Back to the drawing board for my first TS.



Dear Mr. Thomas,


Thank you for your internet order #5746882, web reference #3787408.
Due to high demand, the limited stock of our discontinued G1023S Tablesaw has sold out. We have canceled your order for this item and are in the process of updating our internet site.
We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused you. If we may be of further assistance, you may contact us at our Toll Free Order Line at 1-800-523-4777 or email us at csr@grizzly.com. Thank you very much for your order.
Sincerely,
Laura
Grizzly Industrial, Inc.

[Gary McKown]

Alas, I don't see the G1023SL(W) on the website, either, although it was in the catalog I got not too long ago. Guess that means I now own an obsolete saw.

[Glen Blanchard]

That's a bummer indeed. I am rather disappointed in hearing how Grizzly handled this. It seems filled with apathy to me.

Telling you to call if they can help you further???? Are you kidding me???? You are trying to give them your money for crying out loud!!!!! I would have expected a phone call notifying you of the situation and an offer to help you in choosing another table saw.

[Jason White]

If you don't mind left-tilt, I recommend jumping on one of the other 1023's while they still have them.

Jason



I finally dropped the hammer and ordered the Grizzly G1023S this morning and received this email around noon today. Back to the drawing board for my first TS.



Dear Mr. Thomas,


Thank you for your internet order #5746882, web reference #3787408.
Due to high demand, the limited stock of our discontinued G1023S Tablesaw has sold out. We have canceled your order for this item and are in the process of updating our internet site.
We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused you. If we may be of further assistance, you may contact us at our Toll Free Order Line at 1-800-523-4777 or email us at csr@grizzly.com. Thank you very much for your order.
Sincerely,
Laura
Grizzly Industrial, Inc.

[Joe Leigh]

$#@*(&^)))(*^^&!!!

I was just about to pull the trigger on that saw this wekend!!!!

I should have known that price was too good to be true.....

[Van Huskey]

Alas, I don't see the G1023SL(W) on the website, either, although it was in the catalog I got not too long ago. Guess that means I now own an obsolete saw.


Are you talking about the 2010 catalog? If so I think you are mistaken the 1023S__ saws are not in the 2010 catalog (unless it is in the clearance section) as they don't have riving knives an are no longer built, as of 2010 table saws have to have riving knives to get a UL label. The new 1023 saws have the "R" suffix as in 1023RL.

[Van Huskey]

If you don't mind left-tilt, I recommend jumping on one of the other 1023's while they still have them.

Jason


They redesigned the 1023 saws with riving knives so they obviously plan to keep selling them, the right tilt in question here was just the last of the non-riving knive 1023 saws to be sold out, the left tilts (non-riving knife saws) went much earlier.

[Van Huskey]

That's a bummer indeed. I am rather disappointed in hearing how Grizzly handled this. It seems filled with apathy to me.

Telling you to call if they can help you further???? Are you kidding me???? You are trying to give them your money for crying out loud!!!!! I would have expected a phone call notifying you of the situation and an offer to help you in choosing another table saw.


Hmm I saw it the other way, no way you could consider this bait and switch, which if they did what you suggested it could be seen as bait and switch. Plus, I always figure if I make an order via internet I would expect internet response, had I called then I would have expected a call.

[Glen Blanchard]

Hmm I saw it the other way, no way you could consider this bait and switch.

Nope. No claim of bait and switch. I'm just not impressed with the "if we can help you further, please call us" response to this particular situation. Perhaps I am being overly critical (I've had a rough evening so far, so I have to allow for that possibility :rolleyes:).

If I understand it correctly, Andrew submitted his order and apparently their server accepted the offer, at least preliminarily. If it is discontinued and sold out, the order should not have been accepted. By canceling the order, Grizzly has created the problem and (in my eyes) should make a better effort to solve it.

Don't get me wrong, I am not stirring the pot here for Grizzly. As a matter of fact I have my eyes on one of their 12" jointers. I just think they could make more effort to find Andrew an acceptable substitute.

[Van Huskey]

Nope. No claim of bait and switch. I'm just not impressed with the "if we can help you further, please call us" response to this particular situation. Perhaps I am being overly critical (I've had a rough evening so far, so I have to allow for that possibility :rolleyes:).

Sorry, I didn't explain properly I was saying if they did what you suggested that it could be considered bait and switch.
Obviously, not offereing anything else could not be bait and switch.

As for the offer of help, what else would you expect, the point was IF you want any further help let us know. I undetsand you said you would expect a call, I think an email suffices if that is how you communicated with them, in other words if you are comfortable ordering a near $1k item over the computer then you obviously don't need the human touch for everything. I do see your point however.

[Glen Blanchard]

As for the offer of help, what else would you expect, the point was IF you want any further help let us know. I undetsand you said you would expect a call, I think an email suffices if that is how you communicated with them, in other words if you are comfortable ordering a near $1k item over the computer then you obviously don't need the human touch for everything. I do see your point however.

Van,

Your point is well taken. If not a phone call, perhaps an email saying something like this,

"Dear Andrew,

I am sorry to inform you that we are unable to fill your order, yada yada yada. However, I looked closely at your order and I believe we can find another table saw for you. You may want to consider model ABC or model XYZ. These are very close to the model you ordered. Please call me and I will be happy to explain the differences between these models. I am confident that we can find a table saw for you."

[Chris Tsutsui]

These are still on the Grizzly website, as $750 + shipping. Quite a bargain.

For kicks I sent in an order for 10 of them hoping to see if I get the same letter or perhaps a discount on the saw I really want...

j/k, I didn't do that :D

[keith jensen]

I'm with Glen on this one. With all of the inventory management technology out there, I would think Grizzly would have known when the 1023S gauge hit E and would not accept orders. Not too big of a deal though, I'm sure there is a silver lining here somewhere....just be patient.

What about a used Powermatic? My saw was made more than a decade before I was even born but man does that thing cut circles around my contractors saw. One thing it could use is a better blade changing system though!

[Tony Shea]

I do agree with Glen's point about the system should have automatically registered that the saw is not available and your order can not be processed. A simple automatic sold out and no backorder would have been great. I'm surprised such a large outfit doesn't have a computer system that automatically checks inventory and relay's the imformation to the orderign system on their website.

But since they don't I would agree with Van that the email would be suficient since the order had been placed over the internet. But none of this really matters.

Sorry to hear that you can't get the saw you wanted at the price you expected. You should have grizzly give you some personal information of the last few people who ordered them so you can bargain with these guys and get the saw you want. Now that would be the ethical way for Griz to handle the situation.

[Van Huskey]

Van,

Your point is well taken. If not a phone call, perhaps an email saying something like this,

"Dear Andrew,

I am sorry to inform you that we are unable to fill your order, yada yada yada. However, I looked closely at your order and I believe we can find another table saw for you. You may want to consider model ABC or model XYZ. These are very close to the model you ordered. Please call me and I will be happy to explain the differences between these models. I am confident that we can find a table saw for you."


The problem with your proposed email is that someone would cry bait and switch and depending on governing laws they would at least be able to get past summary judgement... That email could cost a company a lot of money.

Grizzly does seem to have some issues with inventory, twice in the last month or so there has been a post here about how someone tried to order something and were told it was out of stock, both times Papa bear showed up said it was a mistake and the item was onsite and could ship very soon.

[Rob Hough]

Expecting the "personal" touch from an Internet sale seems to be asking for quite a bit. I'm guessing that if you really wanted the touchy feely sales experience, one would be better off to call a sales rep.

While my dealings with Grizzly have been very minor at this point... They have earned big points with me thus far.

[Glen Blanchard]

Expecting the "personal" touch from an Internet sale seems to be asking for quite a bit.

I'd agree if we were talking about an order for a pair of hinges or a bottle of glue. But for an $800 purchase???? In today's economy???

[Andrew W. Thomas]

I didn't mean this thread to be a complaint but more so a warning for others because within the last week I'd probably seen the G1023 posted 10 times as recommendations for saw purchases.

I was obviously disappointed that my order was processed and later denied but I'm more so skeptical of why the site has not been changed. Like Tony said, with a company the size of Grizzly I'm surprised that they do not have an automatic inventory system that would have rejected the saw purchase.

I'm going to try and get a chance to call the company tomorrow to see if its just not available to my area. I know Grizzly ships from three locations around the U.S. If its just the case that the nearest distribution center to Chicagoland doesn't have anymore then I'm going to begin to complain in hopes of getting one from one of the other warehouses. If they are truly out of the saws then... oh well.

[Van Huskey]

I'm going to try and get a chance to call the company tomorrow to see if its just not available to my area. I know Grizzly ships from three locations around the U.S. If its just the case that the nearest distribution center to Chicagoland doesn't have anymore then I'm going to begin to complain in hopes of getting one from one of the other warehouses. If they are truly out of the saws then... oh well.


Good idea and I might try calling the three stores directly first and you may KNOW there is a saw in Washington for example when you talk to the CS rep.

[Marshall Border]

I will say this Andrew that you can't go wrong with the big Grizzly brand , good luck with your decision ........:rolleyes:

[Paul Ryan]

Look at it as a blessing. Save your money and buy one of the newer model 1023R saws. Those look like really nice saws with some real nice features, IMHO the most attractive 10" saws grizzly has.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I really don't see how Grizzly could have handled it better.

They replied within a few hours ...not days.......

They didn't try to bait and switch or suggest an alternative......

Let me show you how a different company handled me three years ago.

I called a company...they dealt not only in the bandsaw I wanted but the lathe I wanted too. The guy answered the phone....said he was swamped and he would call me back that afternoon. Both of the tools were nearly or over $3,000 each.

2 days later I hadn't heard from him.....I ordered an MM-16...put it on a credit card.....ordered a PM-3520B ....put it on a credit card.....paid the credit card off at the end of the month....over $6,000 ... The guy called me back 2 days after I ordered from somebody else.....

Now I could mention the company and the guy's name ......it would be recognized.....and folks here would jump up and defend him...... but I wasn't treated right.....

You got notified within a few hours and they didn't try to strong arm or sucker you into another product....

I'd say you were treated well.

[Jim O'Dell]

I think the issue with the online inventory was brought up a couple years ago, and yes the capability is out there, but the cost to implement it is sky high. At least that's how I'm remembering it.
When I ordered my G0691 in December, I ordered it by phone as that was the only way to get the advertised special. I knew immediately that they were out of the saw. When you talk to them by phone, you get real time information. There is a lag in the online ordering. In many ways, it is very understandable. It is possible that someone has to print off the orders every so often, then work them like the rep does when you call in. If you are at the end of the ones printed off, it might be a little while.
I'm sorry too you weren't able to get the saw you ordered. But I agree with Paul, save your pennies and get the 1023R series or the G0690/691. I think the riving knife is worth the extra...that's why I got the 691 instead of saving some money on the 1023. JMHO. Jim.

[Dave Lehnert]

Before I order a tool from Grizzly I call or e-mail and ask if it's in stock. I don't like to have anything on back-order. I want to know exactly when to expect it. Not just show up one day when out of town or such.

[Mark Woodmark]

Due to high demand, the limited stock of our discontinued G1023S Tablesaw has sold out.

Is this a new marketing tactic? Discontinuing a product that has a high demand. I am a little surprised they did not suggest a replacement

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mark,

As of 1/1/2010...UL listed saws have to have use a riving knife. Those currently in stock can be sold.

Grizzly redesigned the saws with a riving knife and are no longer making the one without the riving knife.

There is no plot.....

If they suggested a replacement...some skeptics would scream "bait and switch".

The reason the saw recently had such a great demand is because Grizzly lowered the price several hundred dollars to close them out.

[Van Huskey]

Mark,

As of 1/1/2010...UL listed saws have to have use a riving knife. Those currently in stock can be sold.

Grizzly redesigned the saws with a riving knife and are no longer making the one without the riving knife.

There is no plot.....

If they suggested a replacement...some skeptics would scream "bait and switch".

The reason the saw recently had such a great demand is because Grizzly lowered the price several hundred dollars to close them out.

Exactly, plus the only reason these were still around is they were right tilt, the left tilts went much quicker. In the end I think most will be happy they "missed" this deal, they will likely end up with a left tilt that has a riving knife and be better off.

[Bill Shawver]

Mark,

As of 1/1/2010...UL listed saws have to have use a riving knife. Those currently in stock can be sold.

Grizzly redesigned the saws with a riving knife and are no longer making the one without the riving knife.

There is no plot.....

If they suggested a replacement...some skeptics would scream "bait and switch".

The reason the saw recently had such a great demand is because Grizzly lowered the price several hundred dollars to close them out.

If you are aware of this, don't you think Grizzly is fully aware? I heard about this months ago, seems like they would have been on top of this issue since they are legally liable, and would be keeping a very close eye on stock and import dates. Seems odd that his order was accepted when much smaller companies like Tyler tool has online inventory counts.

I think they should step up and give him the newer saw for the same price. Had Grizzly not accepted his credit card, and confirmed his order (contract) then he would be SOL. I see it as a contract issue. IMHO

[Mark Woodmark]

Mark,

As of 1/1/2010...UL listed saws have to have use a riving knife. Those currently in stock can be sold.

Grizzly redesigned the saws with a riving knife and are no longer making the one without the riving knife.

There is no plot.....

If they suggested a replacement...some skeptics would scream "bait and switch".

Didnt know about the riving knife thing. Still feel they could have suggested a replacement. You dont have to buy the replacement if you dont want it

[Van Huskey]

If you are aware of this, don't you think Grizzly is fully aware? I heard about this months ago, seems like they would have been on top of this issue since they are legally liable, and would be keeping a very close eye on stock and import dates. Seems odd that his order was accepted when much smaller companies like Tyler tool has online inventory counts.

I think they should step up and give him the newer saw for the same price. Had Grizzly not accepted his credit card, and confirmed his order (contract) then he would be SOL. I see it as a contract issue. IMHO

I can't get the exact language I need to be sure (without actually placing and order with Grizzly) but most e-tailers would not have had a "contract" at this point. Not as sure about inventory BUT there is a ton of precedent on price mistakes by e-tailers and with a few simple steps they can avoid getting caught by their mistake. I am not aware of a major retailer that has been forced to take a hit via price mistake. The normal approach is to prevent the contract from being formed is to design a system that conditions the contract on verification of the contents of the order, if this fails then they can always fall back on the equity doctrine of unilateral mistake. In the end likely no enforceable contract here, unless Grizzly is WAY behind the times with their order language and they have poor legal representation.


Anyway you look at it Grizzly does have an issue with order processing, similar issues have come up several times here. However, my guess is that for most people Grizzly will get a pass since they do have the best bang for the buck almost across the board with machines.

[Van Huskey]

Didnt know about the riving knife thing. Still feel they could have suggested a replacement. You dont have to buy the replacement if you dont want it


Again, bait and switch. Google bait and switch and you will understand why no company that wants to stay in business would do what you suggest. If I had a store and you were a regular customer I wouldn't hesitate to work with you but at arms length I would NEVER mention an alternative unless the customer ask first. The rep said if you need help contact us, if he emails them back I betcha they are more than willing to recommend another saw, but in this case he will have initiated it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

If you are aware of this, don't you think Grizzly is fully aware? I heard about this months ago, seems like they would have been on top of this issue since they are legally liable, and would be keeping a very close eye on stock and import dates. Seems odd that his order was accepted when much smaller companies like Tyler tool has online inventory counts.

I think they should step up and give him the newer saw for the same price. Had Grizzly not accepted his credit card, and confirmed his order (contract) then he would be SOL. I see it as a contract issue. IMHO


Bill,

Sure Grizzly knew the UL obligation....that's why they indicated the saw was being discontinued. It wouldn't meet the new UL standard.

No company has any obligation to offer a new product at a reduced cost just because they ran out of a heavily discounted, discontinued stock.

Think about this:

1. Grizzly probably takes a huge number of orders...online and in the store every hour. They make money by doing volume.

2. His order obviously wasn't the only one being taken.

3. While inventory may be kept by computer, some human has to interface with it. So if one human has pulled one from stock to ship but hasn't made an entry into the computer yet....another order could be taken...then the guy who pulled the last one from stock makes the adjustment to the computer inventory...and the 2nd buyer just got burned....not intentionally. And if the order is made on line, it may take awhile before another human gets the order and checks the adjusted inventory to find one isn't available anymore.

4. There are skeptics who would say if they suggested an alternative they were playing "bait and switch".

Grizzly handled this in good fashion IMHO.

[Tony Shea]

I'm still stuck about the inventory systems not being interconnected at some point. My last dealing with them was a similar issue but with something much smaller, a Dewalt Dado set. It took them a couple days to finally send me an email that the item is currently on backorder with zero mention of this in the ordering process. The order went through but apparently instantly went on backorder. I guess it had been out of stock for a couple weeks and still no internet update. It seems they could spend a little $ to iron the internet site of these inventory issues. I had to call to have my order cancelled as I could not wait weeks for a dado set. Not a big deal in reality but a minor inconvienence. Nothing to sway me from doing more business with them but now most orders I do make will be over the phone for product availability. I do agree the handled the situation well as there was not mention from them for a replacement, but if you wanted you could call and discuss this with them. In reality other people that have put the tool through some tests would be a better 3rd party to reccomend a different tool. According to Griz all their saws are worthy reccomendation, especially the top end expensive ones.

[Dan Friedrichs]

It seems they could spend a little $ to iron the internet site of these inventory issues.

+1. I just find it really odd that a company as large as Grizzly has a website that looks like it fell out of 1994.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Those complaining about missing out on a sales special and not being notified of a suitable alternative product need to do one thing: Grow a thicker skin!
Why should they have to suggest another product for you? You obviously are adept enough to scour their internet site and pick out a product. Did you not see the other products in that category offered?

It's not like going to a restaurant, looking at the menu, and having the waiter tell you"I'm sorry sir, we are out of that dish this evening....might I suggest something else?" No, this is a purchase that you have obviously contemplated for some time, and have weighted and considered alternatives. Time to go to plan "B".

[Prashun Patel]

As a person in a customer-facing position, I offer this:

Companies often handle things in suboptimal ways because they're run by humans. While it's the job of a good customer service company to reinforce the fallacious idea that each customer is the center of its universe, the fact is, even the best companies deal with multiple issues simultaneously, and occasionally make mistakes.

I submit that a better channel for your dissatisfaction is to give a company with a good reputation (such as Grizzly) the benefit of the doubt, and to call the right person and politely explain why you think they handled something wrongly.

Chances are, you'll feel much better about the interaction. In many cases (this almost invariably happens when my customers have legitimate complaints to me) you'll get some kind of gesture or 'freebie' as a token of atonement.

[Mark Woodmark]

Again, bait and switch. Google bait and switch and you will understand why no company that wants to stay in business would do what you suggest. If I had a store and you were a regular customer I wouldn't hesitate to work with you but at arms length I would NEVER mention an alternative unless the customer ask first. The rep said if you need help contact us, if he emails them back I betcha they are more than willing to recommend another saw, but in this case he will have initiated it.

I know what bait and switch is. The price on the discontinued model was not ridiculously low (I believe around $800.00 with shipping) and it was discontinued for a reason which you stated. Please correct me on this price if it is wrong. The G1023Z is $795.00 + shipping and appears to be a very similar saw. Until it was discontinued the G1023S was sold by Grizzly for a number of years (I have seen it as far back as 2003). Does that show a pattern of bait and switch? Has anyone found Grizzly to be a bait and switch company? IMHO the average person would research the product and the company before laying down this amount of money for a product, especially if buying it off the web. This research would tell them something about the company. I purchase most of my tools off the internet because I can get a better price than your local store and avoid sales tax which seems to outweigh the shipping cost most of the time....if the item does not have free shipping. I have found aftersale support to be as good as if I purchased locally, sometimes better as companies are willing to send replacement parts without you having to receive the part or the whole tool back. Locally, most the time they want the whole tool returned. In most cases this is more of a hassle for me than just replacing the defective part. How does a company discontinue a product, replace it with something else and deplete its inventory of the discontinued item without letting the public know that discontinued item is still for sale? The salesman could have also stated the reason it was discontinued and simply said "We are replacing it with this model" or "We recommend this model as a replacement". I just dont see bait and switch with this tool and feel most other people would not either. Maybe Grizzly is guilty of not updating its website and sale staff in a timely manner and not putting this item into its closeout section. What are others opinions?

[Joe Leigh]

The G01023Z is also discontinued and no longer available. The replacement for the G01023 series, the G01023RL is back ordered until May 11. Just spoke to customer service 10 mins ago. The G0690 is also back ordered and due in the first week in March.
Not many options at Grizzly for the 1023 buyer that are in stock.

[Glen Blanchard]

I have to agree with you Mark. I am certainly not accusing Grizzly of employing bait and switch tactics. However, in my mind, they dropped the ball on this one. The server should have rejected the order as there was none in inventory, and as such this deserved a little more attention than merely, "call us if we can be of further assistance". I have to assume that this is a rare occurrence. If it is, more personal attention is not too much to ask. Unless of course this kind of thing takes place frequently, and Grizzly does not have the man/woman power to handle all of these with a greater degree of goodwill. Of course, if this DOES happen often, there are bigger issues that need to be addressed.

IMHO.

[Mark Woodmark]

I agree with you Glen, If this was a repeating thing with Grizzly then maybe bait and switch could be claimed. Also it appears you are right, Grizzly dropped the ball on this one. It appears at Grizzly the left hand doesnt know what the right hand is doing.....I just checked, the G1023Z is still on their website, but like the G1023S, not in their catalog

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Enough......

This dead horse has been beat enough.