Eurekazone's EZ Smart Guide

[Steve Jenkins]

This is one person's thoughts after playing with the Smart Guide system.
This is an antichip and guide rail system that is designed to be used with your own circular saw.
The pics were taken by Dennis Peacock at my BBQ last weekend. They show what you get with the smart guide system. 2-50" rails with connectors to make 1-100" guide, 1 smart base, zero clearance anti-chip inserts, and two smart clamps. Also included is some double stick tape, and screws and t-nuts for fastening your saw to the base. Either can be used. Also shown is a cross section of the guide rail itself.
The instructions seemed pretty straightforward and, unusual for me, I actually scanned them before putting things together.
The first step is mounting your saw to the base. The smart base has a raised rim around it to aid in properly positioning the saw. The saw I used was an old Porter Cable and the base was too wide to mount it in the correct position so I trimmed the saw base down a bit (subject of a whole other thread already posted). I have since discovered that had I notified Eurekazone of the saw model they would have trimmed the raised rim off one side of the smartbase prior to shipping.
There are two types of antichip inserts for the base and it comes with 2 of each. One kind is designed for use without the guide (the smart base can be purchased individually) and the other for use with the guide.
The inserts slide in from the front of the saw and snap into place. Because of the way my saw sets the depth of cut, to cut the blade slot I simply set the saw on the edge of a table with the blade lowered and slid the insert in with the saw running.
I used the saw both with and without the guide and the cut was chip free on both sides of the blade. To cut without the guide I used a straightedge and measured the offset just as you normally would.
The smartguide has an anti-chip insert on both edges that is trimmed by the saw blade so it lines up exactly with the cut line. The guide itself is a rigid aluminum extrusion approximately ½” thick. It has a raised ridge along the center line for the base to ride on. There are two grooves in the bottom for attaching the clamps and for the two connectors to fasten two guides together for longer cuts.
The clamps which mount under the guide are normally oriented parallel to the guide and in this position will clamp a piece 1-3/4 wide for trimming and still have the edge of the stock at the centerline of the clamp. If you remove the screw and spring from the end of the clamp it will pivot so you can clamp a very narrow piece. The clamps are designed in such a way that they give you enough clearance under the stock you can actually lay it on the floor or bench to cut.
As I said this is just one persons look at the Smart Guide system from Eurekazone. I think it is an excellent system for chip free cutting of panel stock. Unfortunately I don’t have an operable camera at the moment so I can’t give any detail pictures of the actual cuts and the set-up. If you are contemplating a guided circular saw system I think this one deserves serious consideration.

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the review, Steve.

[Paul Berendsohn]

Nice job Steve!

At the risk of gilding a lily, may I make a few observations? A couple things that might not be immediately apparent to some reading your review that are worth noting...


The SmartGuide is bidirectional, that is to say that the same zero offset and splinterfree qualities are present on both sides of the guide. Much less swapping around of the guide, as well as the ability to utilize one side if the other becomes damaged.

Also, the joining of the rail sections is noteworthy. Unlike any other system (of which I am aware anyway), the SmartGuide uses three self aligning, "dovetailed" connectors which give you a virtually seamless connection, with none of the flex that users of other guides have complained of.

I hope this isn't meddling, you did a fine job! Thanks for giving the SmartGuide a day in the sun ;)

Paul

[Joseph N. Myers]

Steve,

Excellent report, short, descriptive and to the point.

You didn't mention the Smart Table (not required to use the system) but I find the table to be great for me, especially when cutting plywood. (My back isn't that great and it saves all that bending and the likes).

Regards, Joe

[Keith Christopher]

Is it useable with a router too or just a circ saw ?

[Paul Berendsohn]

Very usable... In fact they label it as like having a handheld CNC and while I was skeptical it is in fact true. Very very slick setup! Have a look at the examples they post on their site (www.eurekazone.com (http://www.eurekazone.com))

[Steve Jenkins]

Is it useable with a router too or just a circ saw ?

As Paul said it is very useful with a router. They have a universal router base that can be used in conjunction with the guide rail for dados,flutes,grooves etc.
The points that Paul made regarding using both sides of the guide are right on as is the comment on joining the rails together. When I did that I could not feel when I went over the joint with the saw.
Joe you're right, I didn't mention the smart table because I only wanted to discuss the guide rail system. The table is quite useful as you pointed out and can be otained either in kit form or fully assembled with fold-up metal legs and will support a 4x8' sheet easily.
By the way the blade I used on my saw was a 10 dollar Oldham from Home Depot.

[John Miliunas]

An Altendorf, it's not! BUT, a great system, nonetheless. Thanks for an excellent overview Steve, and Dennis, very well defined pics! :)

[Paul Berendsohn]

LOL.. But, can you put an Altendorf in the trunk of your car, or stash it on a shelf when not in use? ;)

[John Miliunas]

LOL.. But, can you put an Altendorf in the trunk of your car, or stash it on a shelf when not in use? ;)

Only if it's a real, REAL BIG car or shelf! :eek: Forklift would be handy, too. :D :cool:

[Chris Padilla]

I had a chance at Terry's CSBBQ to mess with the guide that Steve Clardy brought. We also played with the router guide. We found it to have too much play in it as we zipped it up and down the guide (no router attached). Now perhaps there is some adjustment to it that we weren't aware of or perhaps it works better with a router attached...I don't know. All we did was plop the guide on there and move it around a bit.

I still have my EZ stuff in a box...guess I should get it outa the box, eh? Oh wait, my garage is still in chaos!!! ;)

[Paul Berendsohn]

Play where Chris? From your description it sounds like you mean in the plaform that rides on the guide rail, but I can't see how that's even possible judging from mine which is machined to give a tight dovetailed fit on the rail... can you describe where the play was?

[Chris Padilla]

Yo! Coffelt, Clardy...help me out here. All three of us were messing with it, Paul. Maybe between the three of us, we can be clearer. All I know is that we were disappointed with the play. Steve Clardy meant to contact Dino about it but I'm sure he forgot...he is like that... ;)

[Paul Berendsohn]

Believe me I know the feeling... I have a long list of things to attend to, if I can only find the list :confused:

But judging from my router setup, it's as tight as... ummm a duck's backside (or should that be a dove's tail? :rolleyes: .

[Steve Clardy]

I concur with most said here. This is a great system. I do have a couple of things to work out with it through Dino. I haven't had the time.
I have been working on my own review, and have most all of the pics taken. None on the router attachment or table yet.
The router attachment on mine does have some play in it. But I think that when you set it up, and push your router in the direction it needs to go, the pressure from pushing will make the slop go away, as long as you keep constant pressure pushing your router forward.

When I set my base up, I did the cutting of the insert differently. I did it by the directions and it worked really well. Install eureka base, raise saw up off it's base, like you are going to set the depth of cut, set the saw down on a scrap that is clamped over the table edge, and plunge the running saw into the insert, holding everything tightly down to the scrap. What you are doing here is having a backer board under the plastic insert so the blade won't catch it and break it, like I did one of mine.:o
Heres a shot of a crosscut on poplar plywood. Absoutely no chip out on either side.

Later
Steve:)

[Paul Berendsohn]

Hiya Steve...

Glad to hear there will be yet another review, the more the merrier ;)

Without having a sense of where the play is coming from, it's hard to reconcile it with my experience of course, which was flawless. But if there's enough that you think it could cause any issues at all, I'd encourage you to contact Dino and see if maybe your base needs to be replaced. He's extremely accomodating in my experience. I'd hate to think your experience with the router system won't be as good as mine has been...

[Steve Clardy]

Hiya Steve...

Glad to hear there will be yet another review, the more the merrier ;)

Without having a sense of where the play is coming from, it's hard to reconcile it with my experience of course, which was flawless. But if there's enough that you think it could cause any issues at all, I'd encourage you to contact Dino and see if maybe your base needs to be replaced. He's extremely accomodating in my experience. I'd hate to think your experience with the router system won't be as good as mine has been...
Paul. The play on mine is on the router plate that sits on the guide rail. I haven't had time to address it. I have four staircases going and a set of cabinets to start the first of november, and seems i can't get anything done.:o
I may have a mismade piece or something, just haven't done anything about it since the barbecue where I met my long lost twin. :eek: Haven't seen him in years.:eek:
I have been in contact with Dino on a regular basis. I am working on some other stuff besides the guide system. Nice guy. I've been in phone contact with him also.
Later
Steve:)

[Paul Berendsohn]

Yeah, he certainly is a good guy Steve. I assumed from what Chris said that the plate was the culprit. Mine slides like ice on ice with no play whatsoever, get yours replaced and you'll be impressed...

[Scott Coffelt]

Yo! Coffelt, Clardy...help me out here. All three of us were messing with it, Paul. Maybe between the three of us, we can be clearer. All I know is that we were disappointed with the play. Steve Clardy meant to contact Dino about it but I'm sure he forgot...he is like that... ;)

I concur with Chris on this :p . There is about 1/16 to 1/8" play (in and out, side to side, how ever you want to state it), the base moved from side to side. It was the only thing I saw that I could say was a little disappointing. For a guide system to be a useful tool, I would expect ZERO (That's 0.000") play, other wise there is always a risk of a miss cut. I did not see the same play in the CS plate. I want to be able to not have to worry about the amount or lack of pressure against the rail. Now I didn't spend a lot of time messing with it, so maybe I am missing something and Dino can provides us with the details.

[Paul Berendsohn]

Wow... I was so surprised to hear these reports that I just put my router guide together again to make sure I wasn't hallucinating. Mine's tight as a drum. So (not to belabor the point but to make sure I'm following) the dovetail in your black plastic base is where the play is occurring? I've been looking my router setup over to try to figure out what could be happening...

[Scott Coffelt]

Yes it was within the dovetail, personally I think its a bad unit. Things do happen once inwhile. I also noticed the base was grey (Steve and Chris, right?), whereas my CS plate is green. So I wonder if a different batch.

[Steve Clardy]

Wow... I was so surprised to hear these reports that I just put my router guide together again to make sure I wasn't hallucinating. Mine's tight as a drum. So (not to belabor the point but to make sure I'm following) the dovetail in your black plastic base is where the play is occurring? I've been looking my router setup over to try to figure out what could be happening...
Yes. Play is in the router attachment. NOT the guiderail.
Scott. Yes, base is dark gray. Probably a design or color change.

[Paul Berendsohn]

No question it has to be a bad unit Scott. Mine's black and it appears the dovetails are machined, rather than cast in, so you must've gotten a bad one. I can't wiggle mine even if I lean on it.

[Steve Clardy]

No question it has to be a bad unit Scott. Mine's black and it appears the dovetails are machined, rather than cast in, so you must've gotten a bad one. I can't wiggle mine even if I lean on it.
Scott only has the saw BASE. not the guides and router attachment. Unless He has purchased one since the Barbecue. Scott??
He was talking about mine.
Steve:)

[Scott Coffelt]

Nope just the saw base, I am most liklely to buy the rails this week though. Still out on the router attachment at this time. I want more feedback on the attachment before I buy it.

[Paul Berendsohn]

Ooops, I guess I lost track of who had the router base! But whoever has the base in question, has a bad one ;) so let Dino replace it and then let me know what you think...

[Dennis Peacock]

Paul,

It was in fact the router plate that had the play in it. The Rail looked fine and the saw cuts on it were very good. I was impressed with it. :D

[Paul Berendsohn]

LOL... OK, OK I'm comvinced you guys have a defective router base. One of you call Dino and have him ship a new one out, before I do ;) I want to see some glowing reviews of the router attachment before I have to post my own :rolleyes:


(Smileys per agreement)

[Steve Clardy]

LOL... OK, OK I'm comvinced you guys have a defective router base. One of you call Dino and have him ship a new one out, before I do ;) I want to see some glowing reviews of the router attachment before I have to post my own :rolleyes:


(Smileys per agreement)
It's in the works on getting the router attachment straightned out here on my end. Just hastened happened due to lack of time on my part.:o

I think we are kinda hijacking Jenkins thread here. He has more pics to post yet I believe on the actual use of the guide rails and saw base with Dennis using it from what I have read on his initial post.
So let's let the router thing go till I can get a chance to do something about it.:D:D:):)

Steve:)

[John Miliunas]

[QUOTE=Steve Clardy] I think we are kinda hijacking Jenkins thread here. He has more pics to post yet I believe on the actual use of the guide rails and saw base with Dennis using it from what I have read on his initial post.
So let's let the router thing go till I can get a chance to do something about it.
Steve:)
/QUOTE]

I think Steve is right! Dennis' post went something like: "It was in fact the router plate that had the play in it. The Rail looked fine and the saw cuts on it were very good. I was impressed with it."

Soooooo, this is a pretty good indication that he may have a pretty good comparison now between this and the venerable F system? :confused:

I, for one, do NOT want to see a "F" vs "E" war. I would, however, be very interested in seeing an actual comparison. I still believe both systems do what they're designed to do in great fashion and anyone already set on one or the other will not be swayed. On the other hand, for those folks w/o either system, it would be beneficial. :) Whatdya' say, Dennis? :cool:

[Steve Jenkins]

John, I understand what you are asking but based on what I have seen here in the not-to-distant-past I am reluctant to do it. I think that anyone interested in a guide system should read the reviews and comments and then they will be prepared to ask specific questions to which they will get good answers.

[Scott Coffelt]

To me that's the problem. What I and many have been asking for is a true side by side comparison, from someone not with either mfr. and willing to be fair, accurate and blunt if need be in their statements. What we get is here is a review of one, her is a review of another. At least with you and Dennis on this, you both got to see and use both.

I'd like to see the following items and I am sure others could add.

* Price comparison for similar set-up (rail lengths)
* Accuracy
* Cut quality
* Instructions
* Packaging
* Flex in rails
* smoothness of cut and guides
* 90 vs 45 degree
* added features/benefits ... (integrated system with dust collection, integrated system no dust collection, etc.)
* Speed to set-up and use
* Storage options
* Consumables and replacement parts
* Clamping vs. non-clamping performance
* Alternative applications (i.e., router use, triming warped boards, etc.)
* Distribution channels (i.e., mfr direct vs catalog vs whatever)
* In the end, recommendations (all be it it ma have some bias, but don't you think the guys a Wood magazine and others have the same)

I realize that is much work, but in the end I think it is what folks are really looking for. Personally, I have no clue if the manufacturers are sending the equipment for a short test, giving to the testers, or what. That shouldn't matter in the testing. Heck there are even other cheaper solutions out there that could be included, but for the me these two are the main ones I was looking at.

If all this was done, I don't think it would be viewed as anything other than a non-bias tool review. Just the view of one very interested future purchaser.

[Steve Jenkins]

Scott,
understood.
Actually either Dennis or I could probably sit here and give a pretty good answer to each of your points off the top of our head. To make it really worthwhile it should be accompanied with pictures of each step to illustrate the points. I can't get to something like that for a few weeks.

One thing that makes apples to apples comparison difficult is that you can't really do that. The Festool is a saw and rail system that must be used together. Granted the saw can be used by itself but no other saw can be used on their rails.

The Eurekazone EZ Smart guide System is designed to work with any circular saw and any router (with the router base).

To compare the price really doesn't mean too much but the other points can be compared.

How long a trip is it from KC to here? I could set you up with both and you could have a ball.:>)

[Chris Padilla]

Road trip, road trip, road trip.... :)

[Scott Coffelt]

Road trip is ut of the question for me unfortunately at this time, it would be about 8 hours.

I realize cost is tricky subject, but excluding that I think the others should be farely straight forward. Pictures are only needed to really prove a point I guess.

I am willing to wait, if it takes weeks that's fine, if it never happens that's fine too. I guess I'll have to print off the two reviews and try and figure out what is the same and what is different.

Thanks

[John Miliunas]

John, I understand what you are asking but based on what I have seen here in the not-to-distant-past I am reluctant to do it. I think that anyone interested in a guide system should read the reviews and comments and then they will be prepared to ask specific questions to which they will get good answers.

Steve,

Gotchya'. I too understand that it may indeed open "conversation" in directions we probably shouldn't go. :rolleyes: Sometimes comparisons of that nature can split up, what is otherwise, a very happy community and severe it into separate "camps", if you will and that's not a good result. :( For myself, I happen to own and operate the EZ SG1 system with one of two circular saws. The system has fit my needs splendidly and I've not even used it to the full extent that it can be used for. Yet, by the same token, and as I've said many times before, you'd have to pry my Festool equipment from my cold, dead fingers! :D I consider BOTH companies to be top notch and, judging from the responses to either system, it's quite obvious that both companies have accomplished what they've set out to do: Design and manufacture a product to exacting specs and deliver on what each respective OEM promises to deliver. I'm not really sure what more we can ask out of either! :)

To that end, my sincere thanks go out to both, Dennis and Steve for the reviews and expanded information on both products. Thanks to the respective OEM's for providing the equipment for the tests! ALL of you guys rock, in my book! :D That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!!! :) :cool:

[Greg Mann]

Steve,

Gotchya'. I too understand that it may indeed open "conversation" in directions we probably shouldn't go. :rolleyes: Sometimes comparisons of that nature can split up, what is otherwise, a very happy community and severe it into separate "camps", if you will and that's not a good result. :( For myself, I happen to own and operate the EZ SG1 system with one of two circular saws. The system has fit my needs splendidly and I've not even used it to the full extent that it can be used for. Yet, by the same token, and as I've said many times before, you'd have to pry my Festool equipment from my cold, dead fingers! :D I consider BOTH companies to be top notch and, judging from the responses to either system, it's quite obvious that both companies have accomplished what they've set out to do: Design and manufacture a product to exacting specs and deliver on what each respective OEM promises to deliver. I'm not really sure what more we can ask out of either! :)

To that end, my sincere thanks go out to both, Dennis and Steve for the reviews and expanded information on both products. Thanks to the respective OEM's for providing the equipment for the tests! ALL of you guys rock, in my book! :D That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!!! :) :cool:

I think John is right on the mark. There has probably been more than enough info put forth for someone to make an informed decision which way they might go. This is no different than all the threads we see like 'Which TS to buy' or 'Which DC to buy'. For some strange reason, this one just seems to generate more heat than light and we don't need that. In the end, each of us needs to weigh the pros and cons of either as they relate to our goals, integration with existing or needed equipment, budget, methods of work, etc, etc, etc.

Dennis and Steve have done a nice job with their reviews. Showed a little courage in the process, too.;) Asking one guy to make the definative choice is asking too much, IMHO.

Greg

[Scott Coffelt]

If that's what it must be then fine. But one last thing, we're all men and women here. If one wants to take it personal, then that's too bad. My hope was not to hurt feelings here or there, but to actually get a head-to-head comparison. That said, maybe someone like Wood magazine or whomever else will find it something to test out and provide the details. With that being said, I see no real need for anyone to post any reviews of any tool, because in all honesty it's only their view and since it would not be tested against something else then what do we really have to base it on... to add to the point, no need to inquire about a tool as one might get a panty bunched somewhere if the response wasn't the vast majorities feelings... long rumbling which is really meant to say, come on guys. It's just a simple head to head from someone lucky to get to test both out. Heck, if mfr F and mfr E want to send me tools to test, I'll be more than happy to give a true side by side. Geeez! :rolleyes:

[Greg Mann]

If that's what it must be then fine. But one last thing, we're all men and women here. If one wants to take it personal, then that's too bad. My hope was not to hurt feelings here or there, but to actually get a head-to-head comparison. That said, maybe someone like Wood magazine or whomever else will find it something to test out and provide the details. With that being said, I see no real need for anyone to post any reviews of any tool, because in all honesty it's only their view and since it would not be tested against something else then what do we really have to base it on... to add to the point, no need to inquire about a tool as one might get a panty bunched somewhere if the response wasn't the vast majorities feelings... long rumbling which is really meant to say, come on guys. It's just a simple head to head from someone lucky to get to test both out. Heck, if mfr F and mfr E want to send me tools to test, I'll be more than happy to give a true side by side. Geeez! :rolleyes:
I hear you Scott, but the difficulty with a head to head is that this is not like a couple 14 volt cordless drills. There are too many things that are different. It doesn't make sense to evaluate Festool's guide without including the benefits of their saw. Eurekazone relies on the generic application of readily available saws and therefore can only provide certain capabilities within the scope of the chosen saw. Would it be fair to criticize them because they don't make their own saw? I don't think so. But it would be silly to criticize Festool because they do, especially because it is such a good one. Too many variables, all of which have different value to each of us.

Greg

[Paul B. Cresti]

Scott,
Ditto on what Greg said except.... Festool gives you a great saw. Remember it is a safe plunge cutting saw with a riving knife, variable speed (for different materials) and it miters at the exact same spot where you perform 90d cuts. Regular saws have their pivot point offset from their 90d cutting line. So while the EZ may give great cuts also in the 90d or angle mode its limitation is in the saw itself. Also remember Festool is an entire system, DC, and can also use the router and jigsaw on the rail and then of course the MFT (multi function table). I invested in a system for jobsite use where tools are interchangeable and where their quality is second to none, your needs may be different.

[Dennis Peacock]

OK....Please allow me to inject some comments here.

Eurekazone EZ Smart Guiderail System - No Saw and No special Vac setup
Festool Guiderail "System" - Saw, Guiderail and Vac

The only "real" comparison that can honestly be done here is:

1. How well are the guiderails made.
2. How well and secure do the guiderails "daisychain" together.
3. Deflection of BOTH guiderails, clamped and unclamped.
4. Clamping method for BOTH guiderails.
5. How narrow of a piece that can be "safely" clamped to BOTH guiderails.
6. Can BOTH guiderails be used "without" clamping and still get a good straight cut without the rails moving during the cut.
7. How well does BOTH guiderails handle a 90 degree cut.
8. How well does BOTH guiderails handle a 45 degree cut.

Cost can't really be a factor here in the comparison. Reason? Without the Festool saw, you don't have a way to cut with the Festool guiderail alone unless you want to use the rail like a "clamp-n-tool guide". Which again defeats the overall purpose of the guiderail. So with that in mind, you would have to purchase the saw AND the guiderail from Festool to have a setup that would allow you to use it as intended. Eurekazone's guiderail system is designed with the ability to use your own saw and their saw plate. The EZ cost savings here is not needing to purchase a saw to use the guiderail.

In overall comparison.
Do they BOTH provide a guiderail for straight accurate cuts on the line. Yes
Do they BOTH have a good clamping system for securing the rails. Yes
Do they BOTH have a well made guiderail. Yes
Do they BOTH provide "chip free" cuts in plywood at 90 degrees. Yes
Do they BOTH provide "chip free" cuts in plywood at 45 degrees. Yes
Do they BOTH have accessories to further each rails ability for router use. Yes

In all fairness and honesty.....It should be the reviewers task to best "educate" others via the review to help each one better understand whatever is being reviewed. A good review with Pros and Cons is the next best thing to being there and helping others see and experience the various tools without having to purchase them theirselves is a plus. After all, an educated tool purchase based on reviews helps to reduce the frustration factor of tool purchases. Of course the review posted is only one person's view....BUT...I believe that if you look further, there are others that have the same tools and are also posting comments about the tool in review.

To answer another question? I "tried" to deflect the Festool AND the EZ Guiderails....and didn't get any real deflection in either one.

I will post the Festool Guiderail Review shortly. I still belive that the EZ review should be done seperate from the Festool review. Let each perspective buyer make the decision of which "they" like better. Just MHO.

[Frank Pellow]

Good analysis Dennis!

I do have one question about the comparison. How well does each system work without clamps? I have found the Festool rails to be quite good without clamps in most situations. Does the Eurekazone system even work without clamps?

[Dennis Peacock]

Good analysis Dennis!

I do have one question about the comparison. How well does each system work without clamps? I have found the Festool rails to be quite good without clamps in most situations. Does the Eurekazone system even work without clamps?

I believe that the newer rails from EZ works like the FT rails. Padding on the back of the rails help hold it in place. I haven't seen the newer EZ rails but have talked with Dino about them. Sorry, but all I can say is what I've been told. The EZ Rails at Steve's did not have the foam padding on the back, so yes...they will slide around very easily and "must" be clamped.

[Scott Coffelt]

Thanks, Dennis that's basically what I was looking for. One thing that i am not clear on, I know the answer for Festool. I realize that the performance may change depending on the saw, but with the saw you used do you still get clean cuts at 45%? Is it sstill lined up? I know the festool pivots, thus always aligning the blade next to the guide and gives a clean cut on at least one edge and also stays true to the measurement line.

I personally do not care about the plunge, but where I need a system like this is for cutting down panels and the ability to cut 45 degree cuts. Some day I'll have a larger shop and will be able to expand my TS, but for now I need to find a new solution for handling sheet goods. I have no plans to cut anything other than wood with this thing.

Thanks

[Dennis Peacock]

Thanks, Dennis that's basically what I was looking for. One thing that i am not clear on, I know the answer for Festool. I realize that the performance may change depending on the saw, but with the saw you used do you still get clean cuts at 45%? Is it sstill lined up? I know the festool pivots, thus always aligning the blade next to the guide and gives a clean cut on at least one edge and also stays true to the measurement line.
Thanks

Good Morning Scott,

Uncle Steve Jenkins should be able to answer that question for ya. I don't have an Eurekazone setup here or I would answer your question perfectly as well as provide pics to back it up. The closest EZ GR setup is 5 hours from here....so....<b>Steve Jenkins or Paul B. ?</b>

[Paul Berendsohn]

I'm really hoping that we can maintain the recent level of polite, only semi partisan ;) discourse here, so I'll try to tread softly...

First and foremost... both Dennis and Steve have done great jobs in documenting most of the features of each system, and I applaud them both for the work and time they've invested. Each system has it's pluses... Dino himself has recommended the Festool saw as a great product.

That said, there is to my mind a fatal recurring flaw in this debate that I have to admit being frustrated over. The pluses of the Festool system are recited over and over. Yes it has a lovely dust removal system, for instance. But yet again it seems that the advantages of the SmartGuide are glossed over. Do they both give splinter free cuts? Sure... the Festool does, on ONE side only. If you purchase a tool on the premise that it will eliminate splintering, why wouldn't you demand that it does so on both sides of the cut? Now, the Festool saw is great, but to say the SmartGuide is "limited to the performance of the saw it's used with" ignores the central premise of it's design. It makes ANY RH saw a precision device. I've used mine with a 70 dollar Ryobi and a stock blade and got cuts that blew my mind. Take that 70 dollar Ryobi saw off the SmartGuide and it still has zero splintering... does the Festool? How much time is spent by a Festool user recutting "bad" edges or swapping sides around to maintain a good edge?

Another repeatedly stated plus for the Festool is it's "clampless" nature. For myself I'm afraid I don't see the big deal as it probably takes me no more than 90 seconds to secure my SmartGuide but so be it. Once again however, the merits of the SmartGuide are being glossed over. How narrow a piece can you cut with the Festool guide? As I recall (again I'm relying on my often faulty memory) it's around 6 inches or so. This past weekend I split an 8 foot section of 3 inch molding flawlessly with my SmartGuide... one pass, no splintering... and used BOTH sections. Can that be done with the Festool?

A central difference in the systems is their design philosophy. Paul Cresti has mentioned buying a system with interchangable tools. The distinction here is that Festool requires those tools to be theirs. Eureka's design philosophy is that this degree of precision, safety and versatility should be available to anyone regardless of the tool they own.

In essence what I'm trying to say is that both systems are superb but if we're going to compare them, whether head to head or at a distance you simply must give equal weight to the pluses of the SmartGuide as well as those of the Festool system. I'd be happy to continue the dialog if there's enough interest...

Best Wishes,

Paul

[Paul Berendsohn]

P.S... Sorry I missed the most recent postings while composing mine. Yes, you are able to make beveled cuts with the SmartGuide and retain all of it's features. You simply use the other track in the SmartBase as shown on the Eurekazone website. (www.eurekazone.com (http://www.eurekazone.com))

Paul

[Frank Pellow]

...

How narrow a piece can you cut with the Festool guide?

...




I have cut several pieces 3 centimetres wide and over 3 metres long with the Festool guide (three 1400 mm guides joined together). It did require some clamping which took about a minute to set up.

[Steve Jenkins]

Dennis did a pretty darn good job of outlining the points that Scott listed so I think I will toss mine.
I think that Paul brought up some very good points that have been mentioned but not emphasized regarding the EZ Smart guide system. As he said "glossed over".

As for the 45 degree beveling don't forget thet the smartbase contains a zero clearance insert that will prevent tearout or chipping on both sides of the cut even when you don't use the guide You just have to put in a new insert and cut it with your saw set at 45. When I tried mine at 45 degrees it was off the line of the guide by about 3/32. It was wide of the line though so it didn't damage the antichip strip on the guide. I don't know how the newer saws(mine is way old) would compare to that and I suspect that brand to brand they may differ a bit depending on where the pivot point is.

I think that Paul's point regarding the system of tools is one of the srongest in favor of Eurekazone. How many of us already have a router(or more) and circular saw? The ability to use my own tools on a high quality guide rail and get better performance from them is a very real benefit.

[Paul Berendsohn]

Well, if that was done with the Festool clamps in a standard configuration Frank, they've certainly changed since I used them (admittedly some time ago). Not to belabor the point, but to reiterate my question could you split a piece of trim as I did and use both halves? Not to be argumentative but this is another case where having a flawless cut on both sides is the deciding factor...

Thanks for your comments Steve, I'm trying hard to make my case without this degenerating into the previous type of brawl ;)

Paul

[Scott Coffelt]

Thanks to all, that's is the information I was really hoping to get out of this analysis.

To Dennis and Steve, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for all the time and effort you two gave to provide these comparisons. Time is of value for me, and I am sure for you maybe even twice as valuable. These forums are great for many things, but one thing that I really like is that I can hear from users of most tools about what they purchased and why, along with how they have perfromed. Now we all must take some info with a grain of salt because it hard to spend $$$'s and then say, boy that was a mistake. But in all I feel we get enough views that we can conclude ourselves. The added value is when one or a group of individuals can review multiple head to head and then provide an overview. Though this rare, as most of us are not made of $$$$'s, when it does happen it's a plus.

It seems it's harder for me to find funds to spend on tools, or at least my tastes seem to be getting more expensive. Reviews like this help in the process in insuring that my money is spent on the product that fits my needs the best. So what will I buy? Don't know, I need to digest this info. maybe Santa will be nice this year to me :p .

Thanks Again.

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hi folks,

as you have probably noticed I’ve been trying to stay away from this F vs. E discussions as friendly and objective discussions often ended with personal attacks.

First I’d like to thank Dennis for his honest comparison. And I have to agree that it seems to be quite hard to compare both systems side by side. It’s basically correct, both apparently to provide as much accuracy and safety as possible.
But as Dennis said those systems are designed differently in many ways.



I have cut several pieces 3 centimetres wide and over 3 metres long with the Festool guide (three 1400 mm guides joined together). It did require some clamping which took about a minute to set up.

Correct. It’s definitely possible to cut such narrow pieces. The MFT might be a great addition for short, narrow parts and repeated cuts if you don't have a table saw.



How much time is spent by a Festool user recutting "bad" edges or swapping sides around to maintain a good edge?

I wonder how much time is spent by a Eureka stuff (+ basic circular saw) user cleaning up the mess after trimming a door at customer's home.




Another repeatedly stated plus for the Festool is it's "clampless" nature. For myself I'm afraid I don't see the big deal as it probably takes me no more than 90 seconds to secure my SmartGuide but so be it.

Basically correct. It doesn’t take long to clamp down the rails.
And who long does it take to change drill bits on a drill with keyed chuck compared to a drill with keyless chuck?
Not much difference I think. But do you prefer the keyless chuck and appreciate the quick process?
Me for sure.



Sorry I missed the most recent postings while composing mine. Yes, you are able to make beveled cuts with the SmartGuide and retain all of it's features. You simply use the other track in the SmartBase as shown on the Eurekazone website.

Does this work for any bevel between 45° and 90° or only for 45° and 90°?



In essence what I'm trying to say is that both systems are superb but if we're going to compare them, whether head to head or at a distance you simply must give equal weight to the pluses of the SmartGuide as well as those of the Festool system.

I think that has been pointed out by Dennis, Paul, Greg, ... Different systems, different concepts, different approaches, different solutions which are really hard to compare. At least if price is a major factor of this comparison.

Regards,

Christian

[Frank Pellow]

Well, if that was done with the Festool clamps in a standard configuration Frank, they've certainly changed since I used them (admittedly some time ago). Not to belabor the point, but to reiterate my question could you split a piece of trim as I did and use both halves? Not to be argumentative but this is another case where having a flawless cut on both sides is the deciding factor...

Paul

No, it was done with light duty bar clamps. Here is a thread that shows the setup: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=12900.

Re the both halve question: I find that the Festool blades are so good that I can use both halves. In the work shown in the above thread, I was just using rough sawn wood so it did not matter, but I have frequently used plywood on both sides of the cut and it has been impossible for me to tell the difference.

[Paul B. Cresti]

I am glad no company reps have chimed in to this discussion (at least I hope no reps are stealth posting :mad: ) This is a good discussion on two products. As it has been stated one uses propriatary tools while the other is aimed at using what you got.

Festools are engineered with the upmost quality, functionality and ergonomics but they are pricey. Do they perform? you bet they do. Are they worth it? To me they sure are. Once you have used thier tools you will never want to go back (again MY opinion). If you are short on cash and want a quick solution to one aspect only (straight cuts/routing) this is a no brainer in which direction you will go. If you want quality tools that work together and do not mind the investment (or feel it is warranted for your situation) then you know the other side. My opinion is EZ is a design of the next level of straight line clamping guides. Festool takes it to the next level beyond and offers tools engineered better for each given task and able to work with each other. If you want to upgrade your tools, introduce a great DC system, have all your tools work in harmony than I think you should seriously look at Festool.

[Paul Berendsohn]

Well gee it seems like we are getting off the straight and narrow of this discussion once again...

With all due respect Frank I think if we open the discussion up to what can be done by adding after market products this is going to spiral out of control... If I cobble up a phenomenal dust collection adapter to my PC does that mean that it invaildates the Festool's great system?

Paul, to state that the SmartGuide is only the best choice for simple straight cuts and routing for those "short on cash" shows an utter lack of knowledge regarding it's versatility. In my case, I can assure you, price was no issue when I bought my original system. As to it's abilities I'm going to assume you haven't reviewed their website examples. Perhaps that would be appropriate. Interestingly enough, my choice was motivated largely by what you have stated "quality tools that work together" and "have all your tools work in harmony ". The difference is I wanted to use the tools I already owned ;)

I hope we can maintain the pleasant dispassionate character this thread has had...

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul,
First no this is fine, just lets take it for what it is worth - a discussion on tools. (just do not go there with "my utter lack of knowledge" :( ) I have other quality tools and I just found Festool to be that much better. I got involved with Festool for their sanders and DC setup. Once I tried their other tools I found them to be that much better than my current ones (Bosch routers and jigsaw). My point was if one buys Festool one is buying GREAT tools AND GREAT capability. I still feel you can not really (apple to apple) compare the two head on because with Festool there is so much more involved beyond the saw and router.

[Dennis Peacock]

Good Morning Gentlemen,

Let's keep this on topic here. This discussion can work well if we don't take things "personally" and begin pointing fingers at one another. We are all sharing our experiences and some are sold on Eurekazone and others are sold on Festool. In my book, educate me on BOTH setups and let me and the size of my wallet decide the final decision for me and my shop.

If we all state the abilities of each setup and if we also note the "dis-abilities" of each setup, then we're all that much better educated to make an overall decision.

Basically put? You can use a "Clamp-N-Tool Guide" and you circular saw to make good straight cuts and this doesn't even involve Festool nor Eurekazone. :rolleyes: ;)

Now....let's get back on topic here. Please? All is good so far.

[Christian Aufreiter]

With all due respect Frank I think if we open the discussion up to what can be done by adding after market products this is going to spiral out of control... If I cobble up a phenomenal dust collection adapter to my PC does that mean that it invaildates the Festool's great system?

I don't know which technique Frank uses for cutting narrow stuff but I simply place another piece of wood of the same thickness under the rail. Works just fine.
BTW, I often use "after market products" such as clamps or saw horses to secure my workpieces. But this has basically nothing to do with my GCSS system, it's simply necessary in some cases.

Regards,

Christian

[Frank Pellow]

...
With all due respect Frank I think if we open the discussion up to what can be done by adding after market products this is going to spiral out of control
...


Paul, I do not understand your comment. Two inexpensive bar clamps (that almost everyone will have in their shops already) hardly qualify as "after market products".

[Paul Berendsohn]

Paul...

My statement was of course directed at your knowledge vis a vis the capabilities of the SmartGuide. I make no claim for instance to be an authority on every aspect of Festool for instance, and therefore I have never tried to minimize it's capabilities... nothing more was intended as I'm sure you are aware.

Since this thread was originally a review of guide systems I can't see what the claim that "with Festool there is so much more involved beyond the saw and router" has to do with this debate. Regardless of how much one may love their other tools this discussion relates to guides and the tools which may be affixed to them. I love my DeWalt sander, but why would I bring that into this?

I keep hearing that we can't compare these two systems, and I ask why not? Hasn't this been a valuable discussion for those debating a purchase?

[Frank Pellow]

I don't know which technique Frank uses for cutting narrow stuff but I simply place another piece of wood of the same thickness under the rail. Works just fine.
BTW, I often use "after market products" such as clamps or saw horses to secure my workpieces. But this has basically nothing to do with my GCSS system, it's simply necessary in some cases.

Regards,

Christian

Christian, That is the technique that I use and that I showed in the thread. I did clamp the two peices of wood together.

[Christian Aufreiter]

Christian, That is the technique that I use and that I showed in the thread. I did clamp the two peices of wood together.

Thanks. I checked out the pic. You simply used the clamps to secure the boards.

[Paul Berendsohn]

LOLLLL... OK, let's see...

Frank, I don't think my comment was mysterious. If I add a piece of cardboard to each side of my PC saw the dust pickup is radically improved. Should I incorporate that into my comparison of dust pickup vs the Festool? I've been under the assumption that comparing these systems was limited to their use without any additional devices, perhaps that was wrong. I certainly can glue a nonslip pad to the underside of my SmartGuide, with enough effort I suppose I could weld a Festool saw base on my PC. Would that then be a valid comparison?

Yes, Christian, I too use all manner of clamps, saw horses, and even calipers and digital protractors, but not for the purposes of testing what these two systems can do as they are sold... :rolleyes:

This can be a great discussion, if we maintain a level playing field.

[Frank Pellow]

LOLLLL... OK, let's see...

Frank, I don't think my comment was mysterious. If I add a piece of cardboard to each side of my PC saw the dust pickup is radically improved. Should I incorporate that into my comparison of dust pickup vs the Festool? I've been under the assumption that comparing these systems was limited to their use without any additional devices, perhaps that was wrong. I certainly can glue a nonslip pad to the underside of my SmartGuide, with enough effort I suppose I could weld a Festool saw base on my PC. Would that then be a valid comparison?

Yes, Christian, I too use all manner of clamps, saw horses, and even calipers and digital protractors, but not for the purposes of testing what these two systems can do as they are sold... :rolleyes:

This can be a great discussion, if we maintain a level playing field.

I do not think of this as a contest. Rather, I am reporting on how easy it is to cut narrow pieces with the Festool guide rail and saw.

[Paul Berendsohn]

I agree Frank, this isn't a contest. It's intended to be a discussion, and since it's a subject we're all obviously passionate about it may get heated. You said you didn't understand my point, and apparently sought to disqualify it by rationalizing the use of additional clamps. I explained why I thought that was not valid for the purposes of this discussion.

For myself, I think the thread was most valuable when it kept strictly to the merits of each system, pure and simple, as was done very admirably by both Dennis and Steve...

[Paul B. Cresti]

Dennis,
You are correct. I am selling off my Festool stuff and going back to my shooting board with my worm drive ;) Now I wonder what is the best plywood I should use... hey does anyone no of the best plywood for......

[Greg Mann]

LOLLLL... OK, let's see...

Frank, I don't think my comment was mysterious. If I add a piece of cardboard to each side of my PC saw the dust pickup is radically improved. Should I incorporate that into my comparison of dust pickup vs the Festool? I've been under the assumption that comparing these systems was limited to their use without any additional devices, perhaps that was wrong. I certainly can glue a nonslip pad to the underside of my SmartGuide, with enough effort I suppose I could weld a Festool saw base on my PC. Would that then be a valid comparison?

Yes, Christian, I too use all manner of clamps, saw horses, and even calipers and digital protractors, but not for the purposes of testing what these two systems can do as they are sold... :rolleyes:

This can be a great discussion, if we maintain a level playing field.
So you can 'cobble up' a phenomenal DC system for your 'E', even though cobble up and phenomenal system used in the same sentence sounds like a stretch, and the question of better DC on the 'F' goes away. But if Frank 'cobbles up' a clamp system on his 'E', then we have to get back to discussing the systems "as they are sold"? :rolleyes:

Greg

[Paul Berendsohn]

Greg,

Thank you... I assume you realize you just made my point for me ;)

OK, let's get back to where we went off on a tangent, shall we?
For the sake of simplicity, I'll cede the dust collection advantage to Festool... OK? I'm going to try to keep the focus here on guide systems, I think that's what this thread was about once upon a time.

Let's try this:

I've got a great circular saw, as do most here. Is the Festool guide usable with it? Is it universal as is my SmartGuide? Nyet...

The SmartGuide is bidirectional... is the Festool? No. Therefore when Frank rips the edges off his long plank with his 11 meter (was it?) guide rail...how does he rip the opposing edge? I imagine he walks outside, or turns this massive rail around to make the opposite cut. With my SmartGuide I simply slide it over to where my next cut is. If I damage my edge (as someone reported having done when plunging his Festool) can I use the opposite edge of my Festool? Nope...

Does the Festool give you antisplintering on both sides of the cut? Nope...
Heck, the Smartbase gives me double sided antisplintering even off the guide (http://www.eurekazone.com/products/smartbase.html)

Now, let's talk about the included clamps. Do the Festool guides swivel to enable me to clamp very narrow workpieces (http://www.eurekazone.com/products/smartclamp.html (http://www.eurekazone.com/products/smartclamp.html))? Nope, go hunt around for a matching piece of stock and a few bar clamps. Can I add a couple of their clamps to their guide to make it a self supporting workstation like my SmartGuide? Sorry, no dice. (By the way... rumor has it that the about to be announced new SmartClamps will even let Festool users reap it's benefits).

Now, Frank joined up his guides to make the aforementioned beast of a rail. But how did he join them? The earlier Festool joined in one place, and after complaints about flexing (documented on this very site) they "improved" it to two. My SmartGuide joins in three places, and all three are dovetailed, and self aligning to eliminate any "bump"
(http://eurekazone.com/products/smartconnector.html). The Festool guide? Ummm no again. (In this photo btw, please note that the guide is literally floating on the SmartClamps).

I can continue but do I need to? Festool makes a great saw... a lovely vacuum... and probably a wonderful router but if we're talking guide systems here, as I thought we were it's simply no contest.

Paul

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis,
You are correct. I am selling off my Festool stuff and going back to my shooting board with my worm drive ;) Now I wonder what is the best plywood I should use... hey does anyone no of the best plywood for......

Too Funny Paul!!!!! Just trying to keep things a little "lite" here. ;) :rolleyes:

[Dennis Peacock]

Let's try this:

I've got a great circular saw, as do most here. Is the Festool guide usable with it? Is it universal as is my SmartGuide? Nyet...

The SmartGuide is bidirectional... is the Festool? No.
Therefore when Frank rips the edges off his long plank with his 11 meter (was it?) guide rail...how does he rip the opposing edge? I imagine he walks outside, or turns this massive rail around to make the opposite cut. With my SmartGuide I simply slide it over to where my next cut is. If I damage my edge (as someone reported having done when plunging his Festool) can I use the opposite edge of my Festool? Nope...
Does the Festool give you antisplintering on both sides of the cut? Nope...
Heck, the Smartbase gives me double sided antisplintering even off the guide (http://www.eurekazone.com/products/smartbase.html)

Now, let's talk about the included clamps. Do the Festool guides swivel to enable me to clamp very narrow workpieces (http://www.eurekazone.com/products/smartclamp.html (http://www.eurekazone.com/products/smartclamp.html))? Nope, go hunt around for a matching piece of stock and a few bar clamps. Can I add a couple of their clamps to their guide to make it a self supporting workstation like my SmartGuide? Sorry, no dice. (By the way... rumor has it that the about to be announced new SmartClamps will even let Festool users reap it's benefits).

Now, Frank joined up his guides to make the aforementioned beast of a rail. But how did he join them? The earlier Festool joined in one place, and after complaints about flexing (documented on this very site) they "improved" it to two. My SmartGuide joins in three places, and all three are dovetailed, and self aligning to eliminate any "bump"
(http://eurekazone.com/products/smartconnector.html). The Festool guide? Ummm no again. (In this photo btw, please note that the guide is literally floating on the SmartClamps).

I can continue but do I need to? Festool makes a great saw... a lovely vacuum... and probably a wonderful router but if we're talking guide systems here, as I thought we were it's simply no contest.

Paul

Points well made there Paul.

[Paul Berendsohn]

Thank you Dennis, I appreciate it...sincerely.

[Steve Jenkins]

One minor point Paul. Festool doesn't have any "included clamps" they are 27-30 bucks ea.

[Paul Berendsohn]

Sure Steve... pour salt in the wound ;)

[Dennis Peacock]

I guess one "could" list out each guiderail setup, what it comes with and any additional items "required" to make it a fully funtioning Guiderail? :confused: :)

[Paul Berendsohn]

Oh nooooooooooo Dennis... I hope you're not proposing the start of another thread! :eek:

;) :p

[Dennis Peacock]

Oh nooooooooooo Dennis... I hope you're not proposing the start of another thread! :eek:

;) :p

Who me?????? :confused: :p :p :D

[Scott Coffelt]

Heck too difficult of a decision. I quit, i'm selling all my tools and moving to Alaska. :cool: :p :p :p

The way i see it their both really good for something. If you want to lock yourself into the whole Festool system, including tools they offer the best dust collection system and great cuts, at least on one edge. If you want something more conducive to buying tools of choice than the EZ is the way to go. And if your Chris P. and have all kinds of money buy both. :p :p :p

[Chris Padilla]

Hey, believe it or not...I'm running low! Need CSCO to get back into the 20s-30s. :D LOL....

Actually, I've been looking around at the PC 325Mag CS. It seems $149 is the going price and if Amazon would charge a penny more, you can get PC to knock off $25 off a $150 or more purchase from PC. Hmmm.... I'd almost hate to sell my Skil 77 Mag but that would be about the only way to justify a saw purchase just to mate better with the EZ.

Hmmm......

I think we might need a new thread about which CS (sans Festool) has the best DC! :D

[Jim Becker]

I think we might need a new thread about which CS (sans Festool) has the best DC!
Likely to be a short thread since it's a short list!!

[JayStPeter]

Likely to be a short thread since it's a short list!!

Well lets see, I can name some:

PC and uhhhhhhh ..... :confused: :eek:

[Paul B. Cresti]

All I know is with my Festool saw I get clean cuts on both sides! and the safety of a plunge saw with riving knife and the best DC you can get! Do not knock the DC at all because when I am installing in someone elses house that is priceless. On top of that I use the Festool router & GUIDERAIL and have unlimited capabilities for all types of sliding dovetails, dados up the wazoo, additional triming and plunge cutting abilities, micro adjustability, once again DC, etc... then you add a sander to the DC and you get the best sander there is and absolutely dust free.....you get my point ;) There is no better routers, DC, saw (the only plunge cutting saw & saw with a riving knife), sanders, jigsaws... on the market period. Add a guide rail system that does exactly what it is suppose to, clean cuts any where you want, and in my book and in my opinion there is no comparison!

This has been fun but I think we beat this subject to death!:)

[Greg Mann]

If I understand correctly, with the 'E' system you use one edge for square cuts and can use the other edge for 45s. Cool. I believe Christian asked if you could accommodate other angles, presumably without installing a fresh spinterguard. Have not seen a response yet. Also, IF one edge is set up for 45s and one for 90s does that not negate using the guide 'going both directions' unless you just happen to need a square cut and a 45? To me, that turns the 'E' into effectively a one edge system. Seems like having one edge that does both, and everything in between, would be every bit as useful, AND would remove the chance of inadvertantly using the wrong edge.

As far as Festool's clamps not swiveling, that is what makes them so easy for the vast majority of the times they are needed, which, by the way, is not that often.

Beyond that, in the post just above, I believe Paul C. summed up my feelings about 'F' perfectly.

Greg

[Paul Berendsohn]

Greg... You are incorrect. You can use both edges for either square or bevel cuts, of any degree, without damaging the edge. And to clarify, the SmartClamps only pivot when needed, whereas the Festool's clamps ummmm... don't? Anyway, have enjoyed the discussion.

[Greg Mann]

P.S... Sorry I missed the most recent postings while composing mine. Yes, you are able to make beveled cuts with the SmartGuide and retain all of it's features. You simply use the other track in the SmartBase as shown on the Eurekazone website. (www.eurekazone.com (http://www.eurekazone.com/))

Paul
Well which one is it? Either you use one for beveled cuts and one for square, or use use either for both. One of your statements contradicts the other. And, you haven't addressed the issue of other bevel angles.

Greg

[Steve Jenkins]

Greg, if you look at a picture of the smart base on the Eurekazone.com website you will see that there are two grooves in it. One is for bevels and the other is for 90 degree. The guide rail only has one raised ridge for the base to ride on but you can go in either direction since there are chipfree strips on both edges and the raised ridge is centered. There also is a section on their new smart clamps. they look like they will make using the smart guide even easier as they are designed to support the stock above a worksurface when cutting. Steve

[Paul Berendsohn]

Greg,

You're getting yourself in a dither by not reading my posts carefully. You are misreading and understanding both of them. You use a different track in the BASE. You can use either side of the GUIDE. I believe it is illustrated on their website (www.eurekazone.com (http://www.eurekazone.com/)).

My only personal experience is with 45's which work perfectly well. Now it's entirely possible that the Festool saw has some advantages in occasional cases due to their pivoting saw base. I find it interesting though that I have none of the difficulties setting bevel angles on my humble PC saw that have been reported by users of the ummm... competitor.

I can't help but notice that while you're determined to hold my feet to the fire, you haven't refuted any of my points relative to the SmartGuide. I can only assume that you haven't because you can't and my point remains that if we are comparing guide systems, the original purpose of this thread, the SmartGuide just decimates any competitor. (I'll leave the specific rivalry out... the SmartGuide is superior, period... In my humble opinion of course;) )

Coincidentally, Dino just posted a preview of the new SmartClamp which makes any other clamping system look barbaric (http://eurekazone.com/images/gallery/smartclampingsystem.html). Unlike other systems which use gloryfied C clamps, this system is revolutionary. It allows you to clamp pieces that are astonishingly small, lets you use your SmartGuide as a mobile workstation, keeps the wood perfectly level to the guide, and allows repositioning without reclamping.

Now, we can go head to head again if you wish but the question is really even simpler now. Does anyone, any guide system, have these advantages? No... period, end of story.

Mandatory Smiley Insertion ;) :p :D

Best Wishes,
Paul

[Steve Clardy]

Seems to me we are getting away from the Eureka REVIEW again. This was not a comparision test between E vs F.
Steve. Lots of Smilies

[Paul Berendsohn]

I agree Steve...that's why I mentioned leaving specific rivalries aside. I'd be much more interested in seeing someone explain why my explanation of the pluses of the Eurekazone system are invalid...

Thanks for the smilies, nice to keep things civil ;) I'm out of here for a bit, have a good Saturday everyone!

[Christian Aufreiter]

Greg, if you look at a picture of the smart base on the Eurekazone.com website you will see that there are two grooves in it. One is for bevels and the other is for 90 degree. The guide rail only has one raised ridge for the base to ride on but you can go in either direction since there are chipfree strips on both edges and the raised ridge is centered. There also is a section on their new smart clamps. they look like they will make using the smart guide even easier as they are designed to support the stock above a worksurface when cutting. Steve

Hi Steve,

I noticed the two different grooves and I do understand (speaking of technical aspects) that this design can ensure that the cutting of 45° and 90° cuts is the same. In fact Mafell has used a similar design for years. But while Mafell claims that this (http://www.mafell.de/produkte/prod_saegen_fuehrungsschienen_elektrowerkz.htm) works for 45°/60° and 90° the Eureka rail/base is said to work at any bevel.
How is this technically accomplished?

Thanks!

Christian

[Frank Pellow]

...
The SmartGuide is bidirectional... is the Festool? No. Therefore when Frank rips the edges off his long plank with his 11 meter (was it?) guide rail...how does he rip the opposing edge? I imagine he walks outside, or turns this massive rail around to make the opposite cut. With my SmartGuide I simply slide it over to where my next cut is. If I damage my edge (as someone reported having done when plunging his Festool) can I use the opposite edge of my Festool? Nope...

11 meters, very funny! :rolleyes: Actually it is 4.2 metres. And, yes I do need a lot a room to turn it around. But the rails that I use in "normal" situations are either 1.4 metres or 2.8 metres, and they are easy to turn.




Does the Festool give you antisplintering on both sides of the cut? Nope...

Paul, you have been told serveral times that, due to the quality of the Festool blades, there is no splintering on either side of the cut. Why do you keep either stating or implying that this is not the case?

Maybe you should go into politics. :D :D Several (unnamed by me to avoid breaking SMS guidelines) think that repeating miss-information many many times that it makes it true. :mad:




Now, Frank joined up his guides to make the aforementioned beast of a rail. But how did he join them? The earlier Festool joined in one place, and after complaints about flexing (documented on this very site) they "improved" it to two. My SmartGuide joins in three places, and all three are dovetailed, and self aligning to eliminate any "bump"

Two certainly appers to be sufficient. As I have already reported in other threads, I have not experienced ANY flex.




I can continue but do I need to? Festool makes a great saw... a lovely vacuum... and probably a wonderful router but if we're talking guide systems here, as I thought we were it's simply no contest.
Paul
You certainly have not proven that to me. I will acknowledge that Steve, Dennis, and you have proven to me that the E guide rails are good. But better than F ?????????

[Paul Berendsohn]

Geez Christian... Do you have to show up as I'm leaving? ;) (tschuss)

To reiterate ;) my statement-

[ Now it's entirely possible that the Festool saw has some advantages in occasional cases due to their pivoting saw base. I find it interesting though that I have none of the difficulties setting bevel angles on my humble PC saw that have been reported by users of the ummm... competitor. ]

Should we start a new thread about who has the best beveling? :rolleyes: I keep thinking that this started out as a thread about guide systems, not DC...not saws... not sanders.

So again, I'll take my leave after asking does anyone have a superior guide system to the SmartGuide? I'll be interested to see if we can stick to that...

Paul

[Frank Pellow]

Geez Christian... Do you have to show up as I'm leaving? ;) (tschuss)

To reiterate ;) my statement-

[ Now it's entirely possible that the Festool saw has some advantages in occasional cases due to their pivoting saw base. I find it interesting though that I have none of the difficulties setting bevel angles on my humble PC saw that have been reported by users of the ummm... competitor. ]

Should we start a new thread about who has the best beveling? :rolleyes: I keep thinking that this started out as a thread about guide systems, not DC...not saws... not sanders.

So again, I'll take my leave after asking does anyone have a superior guide system to the SmartGuide? I'll be interested to see if we can stick to that...

Paul
The ability to a bevel is a very important aspect of a guide rail system. I, for one, am confused, about the aspects of bevelling with a rail with the E system.

[Dennis Peacock]

Ok Paul.....I haven't seen it said anywhere by any Festool Fan.....So I'm stepping up to the plate. :eek:

GuideRail and clamps to Guiderail and clamps? I prefer Eurekazone.
The Festool stuff is great....but there is always room for better...no matter who the maker is.

I like the clamping method better.
I like the way the guiderail was designed.

Here are two pics.....from the end of each debated guiderail. This is as far as side by side as I'm going to go. :rolleyes:

[Greg Mann]

Greg,

You're getting yourself in a dither by not reading my posts carefully. You are misreading and understanding both of them. You use a different track in the BASE. You can use either side of the GUIDE. I believe it is illustrated on their website (www.eurekazone.com (http://www.eurekazone.com/)).

My only personal experience is with 45's which work perfectly well. Now it's entirely possible that the Festool saw has some advantages in occasional cases due to their pivoting saw base. I find it interesting though that I have none of the difficulties setting bevel angles on my humble PC saw that have been reported by users of the ummm... competitor.

I can't help but notice that while you're determined to hold my feet to the fire, you haven't refuted any of my points relative to the SmartGuide. I can only assume that you haven't because you can't and my point remains that if we are comparing guide systems, the original purpose of this thread, the SmartGuide just decimates any competitor. (I'll leave the specific rivalry out... the SmartGuide is superior, period... In my humble opinion of course;) )

Coincidentally, Dino just posted a preview of the new SmartClamp which makes any other clamping system look barbaric (http://eurekazone.com/images/gallery/smartclampingsystem.html). Unlike other systems which use gloryfied C clamps, this system is revolutionary. It allows you to clamp pieces that are astonishingly small, lets you use your SmartGuide as a mobile workstation, keeps the wood perfectly level to the guide, and allows repositioning without reclamping.

Now, we can go head to head again if you wish but the question is really even simpler now. Does anyone, any guide system, have these advantages? No... period, end of story.

Mandatory Smiley Insertion ;) :p :D

Best Wishes,
Paul
Paul,

I'm a little tired of you claiming the moral high ground and then throwing around terms like "decimate any competitor" and "makes any other clamping system look barbaric". I have not criticised features on 'E' because I have not used it, just commented on what were percieved inconsistencies in claims made. Now I get it, I can do any bevel in either side but I have to keep track of what track is in the base, which side I trimmed it in, and where the heck I put it, as opposed to one that does all and is always there. It is always easier to claim how convenient something is when you leave out a few steps.

As I said, Paul C. summed up my feelings about 'F' yesterday. He also stated we have beat this to death. Since the carcass is beginning to smell I am out of this thread for good.

Greg

[Frank Pellow]

Dennis, thanks for the pictures of the clamps but I do not really understand from the E picture how the clamp works. Maybe the picture is not wide enough. One guess is that the thing on top (blocking part of the rail) is a portion of the clamp and that it clamps to the right (off photo) and over the edge of the material to be cut. That then leavbes me confused about the fact that it appears to be blocking part of the rail.

Please help me to understand this.

[Paul Berendsohn]

Why oh why didn't I just take a nap when I got home like I planned to?
************************************************** ******
Greg... In the words of Ronald Reagan, "there you go again".

I don't know where you get the idea you need to keep track of what side you trimmed what to and etc etc etc. Certainly not from anything I see written here and it simply isn't true. If I want to cut a bevel, I flip my PC saw (with it's one handed lock and easy to read protractor gauge ;) ) to the bevel angle, drop it into the correct track and cut...
************************************************** ******
Frank,

A politician? You cut me to the quick!

As far as the issue of bidirectionality goes, it's really quite simple. You do apparently have to flip your rail, or workpiece, correct? I do not... what more is there to say?

As far as the antisplintering issue, I'm sincerely happy to hear your results are so good. However, it is at odds with what other prominent users have reported. It is often stated that the Festool saw gives minimal, but not nonexistant, splintering on what they term the "waste" side. And I note that you didn't quite fully answer my question...what happens when you use your saw OFF the guide?

Lastly, as far as the connector issue goes I've read a thread confirming that Festool added the second connector after concerns about flexing on this very site...

Regretably, I am writing this from home where I don't have broadband, but if you dispute my above referenced threads, please drop me a PM and I will be glad to research, retrieve, and forward them to you for your information.

************************************************** ********
Dennis...Thank you!
************************************************** ********
Now I really AM taking a nap, I'm sure there'll be plenty to read later.;)

[Steve Jenkins]

Dennis, thanks for the pictures of the clamps but I do not really understand from the E picture how the clamp works. Maybe the picture is not wide enough. One guess is that the thing on top (blocking part of the rail) is a portion of the clamp and that it clamps to the right (off photo) and over the edge of the material to be cut. That then leavbes me confused about the fact that it appears to be blocking part of the rail.

Please help me to understand this.

What I don't understand is why don't people take about 2 minutes to look at Eurekazone.com and see how the parts operate together and seperately. There are plenty of good pictures to illustrate how the clamp works and how the base can be used off the rail and still get chip free cuts. It almost seems like it's a contest to see how many times and how many different ways an explanation can be given. If one were really interested just check it out.

[Christian Aufreiter]

Geez Christian... Do you have to show up as I'm leaving? ;) (tschuss)

To reiterate ;) my statement-

[ Now it's entirely possible that the Festool saw has some advantages in occasional cases due to their pivoting saw base. I find it interesting though that I have none of the difficulties setting bevel angles on my humble PC saw that have been reported by users of the ummm... competitor. ]

Should we start a new thread about who has the best beveling? :rolleyes: I keep thinking that this started out as a thread about guide systems, not DC...not saws... not sanders.

So again, I'll take my leave after asking does anyone have a superior guide system to the SmartGuide? I'll be interested to see if we can stick to that...

Paul

Paul,
I know that my English isn’t perfect (it’s certainly far away from being perfect) but I don’t think that my previous message which you responded to was hard to understand.

I did by no word mention the advantages of the Festool saw, sanders, dust collection, nor did I comment on your PC circular saw.
I didn’t even ask for a comparison of the different system I simply wanted (and still want) to know how bevelled cuts (at any angle between 90° and 45° and with the cutting line being the same) can be accomplished with the Eureka rails (and the saw base which is obviously required).

Regards,

Christian

PS: I've tried to figure this out from the pics and descriptions on the Eurekazone website but couldn't find the requested information.

[Frank Pellow]

What I don't understand is why don't people take about 2 minutes to look at Eurekazone.com and see how the parts operate together and seperately. There are plenty of good pictures to illustrate how the clamp works and how the base can be used off the rail and still get chip free cuts. It almost seems like it's a contest to see how many times and how many different ways an explanation can be given. If one were really interested just check it out.

Steve, I was not trying to be difficult. I was trying to understand and the picture that Dennis showed confused me. I will take your suggestion and look at the web page that you have referenced in the hope that there will be an answer there.

[Steve Jenkins]

Maybe this will help. Since we are talking about the guide rails and how they compare the only way it can be done fairly is to use the same saw on both.

OK test one
take my circular saw doesn't matter which one and try it out . Works great on Eurekazone guide rail.
Will not work on Festool guide rail

Test 2
Take Festool circular saw. Works great on Festool guide rail
Works great on Eurekazone guide rail.

I don't think that there is any disputing the quality of the Festool saw.

What we have been trying to do ( I think) is compare the rails.

Since no circular saw except the Festool will work on their guide rail then we need to use their saw on both to get a fair comparison of the rails. Now all of a sudden the bevel cut debate disappears.

[Frank Pellow]

...
As far as the issue of bidirectionality goes, it's really quite simple. You do apparently have to flip your rail, or workpiece, correct? I do not... what more is there to say?

That (except with a 4 metre + rail) it is not a big deal. (Just as you say, and I admit, that clamping is not a big deal).




As far as the antisplintering issue, I'm sincerely happy to hear your results are so good. However, it is at odds with what other prominent users have reported. It is often stated that the Festool saw gives minimal, but not nonexistant, splintering on what they term the "waste" side.

I guess I am either lucky or blind.




And I note that you didn't quite fully answer my question...what happens when you use your saw OFF the guide?

(I thought that this thread was about saws in conjuction with guides but, nevertheless...) Except for cutting "2 by" lumber with Festool 28 tooth construction blade, I have seldom used the saw without a guide rail. I will try it that way with a finer blade and plywood in the next couple of days and report back.




Lastly, as far as the connector issue goes I've read a thread confirming that Festool added the second connector after concerns about flexing on this very site...

And, I am using the rails with 2 connectors and I am experiencing no flex. Paul, you are using 3 connectors with no flex. Everyone is happy :) and there is no flex issue.

[Frank Pellow]

Maybe this will help. Since we are talking about the guide rails and how they compare the only way it can be done fairly is to use the same saw on both.

OK test one
take my circular saw doesn't matter which one and try it out . Works great on Eurekazone guide rail.
Will not work on Festool guide rail

Test 2
Take Festool circular saw. Works great on Festool guide rail
Works great on Eurekazone guide rail.

I don't think that there is any disputing the quality of the Festool saw.

What we have been trying to do ( I think) is compare the rails.

Since no circular saw except the Festool will work on their guide rail then we need to use their saw on both to get a fair comparison of the rails. Now all of a sudden the bevel cut debate disappears.

I don't understand how the bevel cut debate disappears but, then again, I still don't know how the bevel cut is done in conjuction with the E quide rail. Maybe I will learn that from their web page as well.

In particular, I want to know it I can draw a line (or really just two marks to denote the ends of the line) then cut an angle cut exactly to that line with the E guide rails system.

[Dennis Peacock]

Sorry Frank.....I didn't get a pic of the clamps in use on the EZ. But here is a getter shot of the clamps. Remember, this is the old style clamps for EZ and not the newer GR-Clamps....

[Dennis Peacock]

I don't understand how the bevel cut debate disappears but, then again, I still don't know how the bevel cut is done in conjuction with the E quide rail. Maybe I will learn that from their web page as well.

In particular, I want to know it I can draw a line (or really just two marks to denote the ends of the line) then cut an angle cut exactly to that line with the E guide rails system.

Frank,

To answer your line and cut question. yes you can. And this can be done with EITHER guiderail setup....Both Festool and Eurekazone do a fine job of making guided-controlled-smooth cuts.

All this is like debating if the air we breathe is really air or if it's water. :confused: ;) :D

[Steve Jenkins]

In particular, I want to know it I can draw a line (or really just two marks to denote the ends of the line) then cut an angle cut exactly to that line with the E guide rails system.


Frank in the attempt at brevity sometimes a post can read as harsh when it's not meant to be. Sorry bout that
Now back to your question. I understand what you are getting at and I believe that I addressed the question somewhere back in the hinterlands of this thread.:>)
Short answer as question was worded yes.
BUT
It may not cut right to the antichip strip when you tilt the saw for a bevel. It may cut out from the strip a varying distance depending on the brand of the saw(I think) and the bevel angle you are cutting. So in response to the unasked question you may have to measure an offset for the cut.
You would still get a chipfree cut on both sides of the blade though because of the zeroclearance insert in the base.
I use the word "may" not to be disingenuous but because I can't test every saw out there. It all depends on where the pivot for the tilt is relative to the guide strip when the saw is in the smartbase.

[John Miliunas]

OK guys. I have read through ALL of this thread, from whence it started to present. It's obvious to me, at least, that those owning the "F" system are NOT going to back down in any way, shape or form. Same goes with the "E" camp. Fine! :) Fact is, those of us with each respective system are, no doubt, happy with it. Why the continued barrage back and forth is simply beyond me. :confused:

Bottom line: They are BOTH great setups. They BOTH exude fantastic quality and are BOTH backed by fantastic Customer Service. I have to believe that, beyond the nit-picking and the "mine is better than yours" scene, there has been ENOUGH written on both. So much so that, there really *should* be enough info out here to make a determination as to which one would serve an individual's particular needs the best. :)

BUT, just in case there is ANY doubt in anyone's mind, BOTH systems have a 30-day, money-back guarantee! :D I can't speak for Festool, but I do know that EZ will even pick up the shipping to return it! Some people have chimed in about this, that and the other thing being a "no brainer". Well, here it is: Get one or the other. Try it. You like it, keep it. If not, return it and try the other. If you don't like that one either, return it and go back to doing things the way you've been doing them, good, bad or otherwise. :rolleyes: Personally, I wish I had enough $$ to buy BOTH of them, as I can see specific uses where one will outshine the other. Sadly, I can't afford to do that, so I will be happy with what I have. It sure beats the heck outta' doing it the "old way"! :)

Stepping down off my soapbox, now. Thanks for listening! :cool:

[Frank Pellow]

...
It may not cut right to the antichip strip when you tilt the saw for a bevel. It may cut out from the strip a varying distance depending on the brand of the saw(I think) and the bevel angle you are cutting. So in response to the unasked question you may have to measure an offset for the cut.
...


Thanks Steve. That is what I expected.

[Frank Pellow]

OK guys. I have read through ALL of this thread, from whence it started to present. It's obvious to me, at least, that those owning the "F" system are NOT going to back down in any way, shape or form. Same goes with the "E" camp. Fine! :) Fact is, those of us with each respective system are, no doubt, happy with it. Why the continued barrage back and forth is simply beyond me. :confused:
...


John, I believe that I am still (mostly) seaking and (usually) obtaining technical information from this thread.

[Pete Harbin]

Well said John!

I think that John hit it right on the head...those who are invested in either system are pretty darn passionate about them, and not likely to be to excited about the other. As one of many future purchasers of either system, I'd be most helped by a thread in which those who own the systems can only answer specific questions about the system they own. Obviously this is a community with all the benefits of free exchange (even the more "passionate" ones) and I don't mean to imply that any speech or opinion should be censored or directed, but if the intent of this thread is to assist those of us who are still in the pondering stages, then all of the "guide rail" measuring going on isn't turning out to be very useful...entertaining, yes. To me the best portions of this thread have been the explainations given to detail various features and the pics with explanations. Combine those detailed explanations from actual users with the great info provided on both company's websites, and now someone can get a pretty solid idea of which system would work best for them.

For my own consideration, I already have routers, sanders, a jig saw, and a fairly new CS, so I'll probably be looking to the EZ in the near future. I've even seen a few new things here about the EZ that I didn't know/understand. However, I'm not afraid to admit that I have spent a considerable amount of time oogling the Festool website. If I didn't have an already sizable investment in tools that I'm already happy with...I...could...be...su...su...sucked...in! :eek:

Pete

No NHL hockey...no problem! The New Mexico Scorpions just won the home opener last night over the Corpus Christi Rayz! Tonight we've got the Memphis River Kings! How in the world do these guys in minors live on les than $1.3 million a year? They must be playing for some other reason.

[Christian Aufreiter]

As others and I already stated it’s hard to compare only the different guide rails. But, yes, we (or at least someone who has the different rails at hand) can compare them but where do we draw the line? – “Only the rails” would mean only the rails. Without any sawbases, saws, additional tables, accessories, etc. Yep, we could compare the quality of the rails and the different lengths available.
But would this make any sense? Would any potential customer be interested in such a comparison? I don’t think so.

Personally, if I were contemplating a GCSS (and a guided router) I’d be interested in the performance of the hole set up.
And if we believe what Dennis stated in his message (No 41) and this is what I do both products are good. Now it primarily depends on our individual requirements which system we prefer.
That’s at least my point of view.

So I really question the value of comments like this:



With all due respect Frank I think if we open the discussion up to what can be done by adding after market products this is going to spiral out of control...

If basic clamps which hold down the workpiece are considered as “after market products” we could go on like that and state that using a circular saw with the Eureka rails is not valid because it would be an aftermarket tool.
Sounds stupid? Is stupid IMO.

And while might be funny to talk about artistic ways to operate a circular saw with one hand and hold the workpiece with the other one, arguments like this don’t make it easier to discuss this topic in an unemotional manner.



I too use all manner of clamps, saw horses, and even calipers and digital protractors, but not for the purposes of testing what these two systems can do as they are sold...


So I think it’s clear that I’m not the least bit interested to continue this kind of discussion. If someone out there still feels a need for it please don’t count on me because there are better ways to spend my time.

However, as I hope that it’s possible to find a certain level of quality I’ll add a few points.

As for clamps being (not) included, no clamps are included with Festool power tools or Festool guide rails. Different clamps (basic clamps, quick clamps, Rapid quick-action clamps) are available separately or in packages along with other accessories (for example, Hole drilling set, Guide rail accessory Systainer).
Talking about the Eureka system, clamps are included in some of their packages if I understood the information provided on their website correctly.



The SmartGuide is bidirectional... is the Festool? No. Therefore when Frank rips the edges off his long plank with his 11 meter (was it?) guide rail...how does he rip the opposing edge? I imagine he walks outside, or turns this massive rail around to make the opposite cut. With my SmartGuide I simply slide it over to where my next cut is. If I damage my edge (as someone reported having done when plunging his Festool) can I use the opposite edge of my Festool? Nope...

Although I’ve never felt a need for a bi-directional guide rail, I think it could be handy, especially when it gets damaged. No matter which guide rail product you use it must be set up newly for a new cut. In such cases, the Eureka must be slid over and the other side of the rail can be used. But even Frank doesn’t need to go outside and turn round his rail, he can just flip over his boards and place the rail.
If you consider that the Eureka rails require clamping while the Festool rails don’t I guess that both ways take approximately the same time.



Does the Festool give you antisplintering on both sides of the cut? Nope...
Heck, the Smartbase gives me double sided antisplintering even off the guide

Cutting “off” the guide isn’t really an operation which should be important when comparing the guides but, yes, I have cut melamine with my Festool saw (off the guide) and the cuts were splinter free. Of course, this requires a sharp and clean blade but we all know that it’s one of the basic rules of woodworking to use sharp tools.
And as clean cuts are even possible without using the rails, the cleanness of the blade doesn’t matter that much along with the rails. Although Festool rails are equipped with a splinter guard I have the impression that the quality of the sawblade is the major factor for the smoothness of the cut.

Cutting narrow pieces:
I have cut narrow pieces (I don’t remember exactly but it was around 3 cm I think) successfully using the Festool rails. Instead of requiring clamps as the Eureka rail does I need do is place another piece of wood of the same thickness under the rail.
Which method is better? I don’t know.
Which one works faster? I don’t know either.
I think you can appreciate the clamps in some cases but you can also appreciate the ability to work without clamps.

Joining rails:
I’ve never used the old Festool rails so I can’t comment on them. Basically, I don’t think the older rails are of much interest. Those who already own them can’t change them and I haven’t seen anyone who wanted to sell his Festool system because he was dissatisfied with the rails, and today you get the new rails. The current (newer) Festool rails connect to each other without flexing. I don’t own as many long rails as Frank but I’ve cut a 2100 mm long sheet goods with my 1400 mm and 800 mm rails connected to together and it worked very well.
I’ve read that a similar performance is provided by the Eureka system.

Bevelled cuts:
I think the technique of the Festool setup has been mentioned and explained a couple of times and Steve already posted how the Eureka works.

Necessity of clamping:
Eureka zone owners state that clamping down the rail is necessary. Not so with the Festool rails. While placing an tightening a clamp is basically not a time-consuming process, some situations require clamp-less operation. For example, if you have to replace a damaged part of a (wooden/parquet, …) floor.

Another aspect of the Festool system is that you can cut very close to a wall, cabinet, etc. Again important when you have to replace a part of a floor next to a cabinet (which can’t/shouldn’t be moved, of course).

The Festool rails can be used with (of course) Festool plunge saws, router and jigsaws. While I haven’t used my jigsaw along with the rail it’s worth mentioning IMO. As far as I know the Eureka rails can be used with many, not all popular circular saws and routers.

Festool offers rails which can be used for the 32 mm cabinet making method.

One question, how much cutting depth do you lose with the Eureka rails + base and how much with the Festool guide?
(Yes, I own Festool rails but they are about 150 km away from my computer so I can’t measure them).

I almost forgot, both companies offer a variety of accessories.


I hope my post covers the most important aspects of the different rails. I do know that there are other very important factors which can/could/should be considered when trying to decide what to buy. The most important point is the circular saw in my opinion but I’m not going to debate this subject now.

Hope this helps,

Christian

[JayStPeter]

As far as the antisplintering issue, I'm sincerely happy to hear your results are so good. However, it is at odds with what other prominent users have reported. It is often stated that the Festool saw gives minimal, but not nonexistant, splintering on what they term the "waste" side. And I note that you didn't quite fully answer my question...what happens when you use your saw OFF the guide?



Like Frank, I don't have any complaints about the "waste" side. I believe it could happen. I'm pretty sure the reason it doesn't is the quality of the blade and proper alignment of the blade with the guide. The 'E' system may have the advantage here as the blade quality is not supposed to be a factor. But, I have many times used the "waste" side cut as a final cut.



Lastly, as far as the connector issue goes I've read a thread confirming that Festool added the second connector after concerns about flexing on this very site...



I hope my posts about my guide problems aren't what you are referring to. I was using a guide designed for 2 connectors with only 1. I also was not complaining about flex, but of a "bump in the road" when transitioning between rails. So far, I haven't entirely eliminated the bump in the road. But, there has never been an adverse effect on cut quality, only on the smoothness of pushing the saw. I will admit that I am seriously considering purchasing a long rail. Partially because of this and partially because I just think it will be easier.

I'm also interested to see what you come up with for improved dust collection. Don't take this as negativity, just the engineer in me. I borrowed a PC before buying the 'F' to see how good the DC port worked. At the time, I was honestly pretty happy with my homemade guiderail and just wanted dust collection. I did attempt some cardboard and got better results, but still had some problems with the spring loaded blade guard knocking it off. I only had the saw for around a half hour, so I didn't really try too hard. I had a couple of ideas, but never really tried them. Definitely post your solution, I am interested to see what you have come up with and how much it improves the PCs DC performance.

Jay

[Paul Berendsohn]

I think this should be renamed "The Dawn of The Dead" Thread because it keeps rising from the grave and will never die. ;)

Like many here, I believe that is has gone beyond tedious, and verges on outright silliness but I'd like to make a final (I hope) comment or two.

First I imagine I may not be the only one who notices irony in someone saying they will not comment any further, as they write the longest contribution to the thread, and quotes me no less than four times... not to mention calling one of my points stupid. But hey, I'm a big boy.

I have spent virtually my entire adult life in the photography business, and if you guys think this debate is bad, try getting a couple Leica, Nikon and Canon owners together to debate which system is superior. From that experience, it has been my observation that the degree of chest thumping and protests is proportionate to the investment in their system. I've noticed here that those who make the loudest protestations are those with the biggest investments in dedicated tools. For myself, I've got about 200 bucks invested in my SmartGuide setup... show me I'm wrong and I'm out the cost of a nice night on the town :rolleyes: but so far all I've seen is continued debates over why the many advantages of the SmartGuide aren't all that important to those who don't own it... imagine that ;)

To the many of you who have dropped me emails thanking me for trying to make sure the SmartGuide gets the attention it deserves, you're welcome.

There's one item on the Eureka website that interestingly enough no one seems to have noticed. They call it the Eurekazone Challenge. In essence, they offer a two week vacation and 2000 bucks to anyone that can demonstrate the superiority of their system... any system! Surely there must be a diehard ummmm European system user out there who'd like a nice, paid vacation and 2 grand? Hmmmm... I'm sure there's an alternative explanation but I can only come up with one... and I'll be a gentleman and leave it at that ;)

[John Miliunas]

I have spent virtually my entire adult life in the photography business, and if you guys think this debate is bad, try getting a couple Leica, Nikon and Canon owners together to debate which system is superior.

Hrmph!!! :mad: And all this time I thought you were an OK guy! Where's Olympus in that mix of yours?! :confused: My poor old OM-1 and OM-2 are deeply offended! :mad: Aw, the heck with that. They went and took my beloved Kodachrome away, so not much more matters..... :( :( :( :cool:

[Paul B. Cresti]

Very entertaining indeed! Paul what kind of stock options do you have?;)

[Gene Collison]

There's one item on the Eureka website that interestingly enough no one seems to have noticed. They call it the Eurekazone Challenge. In essence, they offer a two week vacation and 2000 bucks to anyone that can demonstrate the superiority of their system... any system! Surely there must be a diehard ummmm European system user out there who'd like a nice, paid vacation and 2 grand? Hmmmm... I'm sure there's an alternative explanation but I can only come up with one... and I'll be a gentleman and leave it at that ;)[/QUOTE]

_____________________

Paul,

I have been watching this thread from the beginning and it has drawn my interest. But, there is one question that begs to be asked, and it is; Why are you supposedly as a Eurekazone user only, dedicated to the point where you would post 74 messages on SMC primarily about the advantages of Eurekazone over Festool? I mean the tool is used to cut plywood, not exactly rocket science, only another way of cutting plywood and you are only a user right? I mean most of us have more important things to do (eg. working to make money) than stay on SMC for 3 consecutive days talking about the merits of Eurekazone. I can only conclude that in some way you are associated with Eureka. You seem to know the product even better than Dino, you are an expert on the Eurekazone guide system and the website. You may say that you aren't associated, but there has got to be a vested interest somewhere, it's only logical. Everytime someone mentions something that you interpret as negative about Eurekazone, you are ready to do battle. No offense please, just curious! Your comments would be appreciated!

Gene

[Christian Aufreiter]

First I imagine I may not be the only one who notices irony in someone saying they will not comment any further, as they write the longest contribution to the thread, and quotes me no less than four times... not to mention calling one of my points stupid. But hey, I'm a big boy.


Well, it's one thing to read a post and it's a different one to (mis-)interpret it.



So I think it’s clear that I’m not the least bit interested to continue this kind of discussion. If someone out there still feels a need for it please don’t count on me because there are better ways to spend my time.

However, as I hope that it’s possible to find a certain level of quality I’ll add a few points.

When I wrote "this kind of discussion" I was obviously referring to the first examples I gave, the IMO "strange" after-market-debate.
Or why do you think that I wrote that I hope that it was possible to find a certain level of quality and tried to offer a fair point of view?



If basic clamps which hold down the workpiece are considered as “after market products” we could go on like that and state that using a circular saw with the Eureka rails is not valid because it would be an aftermarket tool.
Sounds stupid? Is stupid IMO.

And as you can easily see I didn't call one of your points stupid. I wrote that it is stupid if we would go on like that IN MY OPINION. And to add an IN MY OPINION stupid example I created this example with the circular saw.
And I admit that the word "stupid" wasn't thoroughly used. I think such a debate would be rather childish.

Christian

EDIT:
At this point I don't see any use of further debating such things as I tried to explain in this post. So I won’t respond to certain kinds of posts any longer.
If anyone has a technical, topic-related question I can answer I'm still willing to help.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Paul,

I can only conclude that in some way you are associated with Eureka. You seem to know the product even better than Dino, you are an expert on the Eurekazone guide system and the website. You may say that you aren't associated, but there has got to be a vested interest somewhere, it's only logical. Everytime someone mentions something that you interpret as negative about Eurekazone, you are ready to do battle. No offense please, just curious! Your comments would be appreciated!

Gene[/QUOTE]

If you allow me, I can answer your question's.
But I can tell you one thing for now.
Nobody knows the EZ Smart better than me. :mad: :) :)

[Paul Berendsohn]

Gene,

The answer to your question is very simple. I like Dino's products, and in point of fact I believe in my heart of hearts two things. First, that not only are they indeed the finest of their type on the market, but they very likely are the only products of their type on the market in many ways. Secondly, I thought from the day I first wandered in here that Dino had not gotten a fair shake in some regards. Lastly, in speaking with Dino as a result of my original purchase of his tools, I established a friendship with him it is fair to say. I will assume Gene, that you are in the habit of supporting your friends as well.

This thread has been the first time that I genuinely felt that Dino had a relatively even playing field and I was determined to keep it that way to the extent I was able. Now, I appreciate your "no offense intended" but I can't help not to do so at your veiled accusations and the concept that posting here as regularly as I do implies the lack of an outside life.

By nature of my business I am online all day, everyday, and perhaps better at multitasking than others ;) . I currently own and operate two fulltime businesses... ( try www.atlanticfilmworks.com (http://www.atlanticfilmworks.com)) Trust me, I have no time to be employed by another. Further, I don't think I have been anymore vehement then many others here, and I'd bet that my average postings per day is not much above most of the regulars here.

In fact, I think that casting doubt upon my motives is another fine example of why I feel Dino hasn't had the fairness accorded him here that other products have. I have stated it for the record, and will do so again. I am not an employee of Eurekazone, I have recieved no compensation from them, nor have I sought them. Can everyone else that has participated in this thread say the same? I'd hasten to point out the advantages of reading forums in languages other than English ;)

Paul

[Gene Collison]

Gene,

The answer to your question is very simple. I like Dino's products, and in point of fact I believe in my heart of hearts two things. First, that not only are they indeed the finest of their type on the market, but they very likely are the only products of their type on the market in many ways. Secondly, I thought from the day I first wandered in here that Dino had not gotten a fair shake in some regards. Lastly, in speaking with Dino as a result of my original purchase of his tools, I established a friendship with him it is fair to say. I will assume Gene, that you are in the habit of supporting your friends as well.

This thread has been the first time that I genuinely felt that Dino had a relatively even playing field and I was determined to keep it that way to the extent I was able. Now, I appreciate your "no offense intended" but I can't help not to do so at your veiled accusations and the concept that posting here as regularly as I do implies the lack of an outside life.

By nature of my business I am online all day, everyday, and perhaps better at multitasking than others ;) . I currently own and operate two fulltime businesses... ( try www.atlanticfilmworks.com (http://www.atlanticfilmworks.com)) Trust me, I have no time to be employed by another. Further, I don't think I have been anymore vehement then many others here, and I'd bet that my average postings per day is not much above most of the regulars here.

In fact, I think that casting doubt upon my motives is another fine example of why I feel Dino hasn't had the fairness accorded him here that other products have. I have stated it for the record, and will do so again. I am not an employee of Eurekazone, I have recieved no compensation from them, nor have I sought them. Can everyone else that has participated in this thread say the same? I'd hasten to point out the advantages of reading forums in languages other than English ;)

Paul

_________________________________________

Paul,

Fair enough on your reply, i'm sure it has cleared the air to some degree around here. I said no offense and I meant it! You know, around here at SMC you don't always have to be on the offense.

Gene

[Greg Mann]

Why oh why didn't I just take a nap when I got home like I planned to?
************************************************** ******
Greg... In the words of Ronald Reagan, "there you go again".
************************************************** ******
Frank,

A politician? You cut me to the quick!


Now I really AM taking a nap, I'm sure there'll be plenty to read later.;)

Quote a politician and immediately thereafter express indignation for being compared to a politician. Take the nap, you must be tired from all your exceptional multi-tasking.

[Dino Makropoulos]

_________________________________________

Paul,

Fair enough on your reply, i'm sure it has cleared the air to some degree around here. I said no offense and I meant it! You know, around here at SMC you don't always have to be on the offense.

Gene
Hi Gene.
To clear the air even more...here is Paul's VESTED INTEREST.



Great Product, Blindingly fast shipping, and wonderful friendly emails, 10++++
Buyer xagent3542 ( 11) Jun-14-04 10:03 4306508121
YCF Dino

[Paul Berendsohn]

Hi Gene.
To clear the air even more...here is Paul's VESTED INTEREST.



Great Product, Blindingly fast shipping, and wonderful friendly emails, 10++++
Buyer xagent3542 ( 11) Jun-14-04 10:03 4306508121
YCF DinoGene...

What Dino has posted is the Ebay feedback from my original purchase of my first SmartGuide.

Now Greg... [Message Deleted]...LOL...on second thought, why bother?

Interesting that I am the only one of the very vehement protagonists here that has had his motives questioned and been insulted personally. I'd have hoped that we could have a spirited, informative debate without falling back on insults. And Gene wonders why I have my guard up...

[Pete Harbin]

All I can say is..."Wow!"

I don't think anyone has mentioned anything about the actual tools in the last eight or nine posts.

If I had a whistle, I'd be sitting some guys in the box for unsportsman-like conduct. Can't we just police up our sticks and gloves, shake hands and call this one a game?

Go Scorps!

Pete

[Dino Makropoulos]

All I can say is..."Wow!"

I don't think anyone has mentioned anything about the actual tools in the last eight or nine posts.

If I had a whistle, I'd be sitting some guys in the box for unsportsman-like conduct. Can't we just police up our sticks and gloves, shake hands and call this one a game?

Go Scorps!

Pete

You ALLright Pete. After all, this is :confused: a review of the EZ Smart.
I Think i will start another thread and call it..Ask Dino The Carpenter about the EZ Smart. I don't think Paul is good for this. :rolleyes:
Paul :mad: you fired :cool:
Wait a minute. I have to hire you first in order to fired you. Do I? :confused:

But I can only do that IF I get the OK from SMC. ;)
Thanks Paul.

[Frank Pellow]

There have now been 14 posts in a row to this thread that contained no technical information. I too, am giving up on the thread and will not post to it again.

[Ken Salisbury]

This thread started as a tool review and not a tool comparison. It seems some of us just don't know the difference. Too many violations of the Terms of Service require me take the following action:

Due to the degeneration of this thread - it is closed to further posting



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