Cheap Shop-vac vs Festool Vac

[Jim German]

I was looking at a Festool Domino the other day, and while paying $900 for it is one thing, paying another $300 (or more) for one of there vacs seems ridiculous. I looked at the Bosch AirSweep, and its similarly priced. Besides for the fancy auto-off/on features, is there anythign besides for being quieter that makes these better than the nice $30 shop vac I got from lowes?

[Neil Brooks]

I'm visually impaired, but like bicycling.

For riding at night, I bought a $700 light.

It's about 20% better than the next most expensive light ... which ... costs about $350.

I figure ... that's about the same deal as most Festool products: about 20% better than the competition, and about twice as expensive :)

[Chris Rosenberger]

If better suction, better filtering, lower noise, auto on & off, antistatic hose & no adapter required to connect to Festool tools are not important to you, then get the $30 shop vac.

[Rod Sheridan]

If better suction, better filtering, lower noise, auto on & off, antistatic hose & no adapter required to connect to Festool tools are not important to you, then get the $30 shop vac.

Bingo, or buy a Fein or Nilfisk vacuum............Rod.

[Van Huskey]

I was looking at a Festool Domino the other day, and while paying $900 for it is one thing, paying another $300 (or more) for one of there vacs seems ridiculous. I looked at the Bosch AirSweep, and its similarly priced. Besides for the fancy auto-off/on features, is there anythign besides for being quieter that makes these better than the nice $30 shop vac I got from lowes?


The biggest thing is variable suction and level of filtration. Get a shop vac, add a Cleanstream filter, add an auto on-off switch and maybe add a dust deputy put it all on a shop built cart with a nice flexible hose and a jury-rigged variable suction and you pretty much have a better mousetrap but it isn't as pretty and you will have about $250 in it. This way you can build it up over time and pick the features you want.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I think the CT33 is sort of loud at the higher settings. Also, the bags cost me $35 for a 5-pack and I don't exactly want to be buying new bags all the time.

So that is why I kept my 6gal Ridgid $40 shop vac. It came with all the adapters free, works very well, and I can take the filter out and wash it and pop it back in. I also am willing to vacuum up everything and abuse it because it's not an "investment" like the festool.

The only time I use the Festool is when connecting it to sander, saw, and anything like that. To me, the price jump is because the Festool has a Hepa filter, and it does a great job at cleaning the air that passes through it.

Suction wise, I don't exactly see a big difference comparing it to my Ridgid or Dyson home vacuum for that matter... 99% of the time I am dialing down the suction knob on the festool to where it's quiet, yet has enough suction for the task. To me, that's half way or less...

To me $900 seems HIGH for the domino. If they have a patent on it, well that patent will expire and soon you'll be seeing loose tenon slot cutters by harbor freight for $100. :)

$300 doesn't seem too high for the shop vac considering people pay $500 for Dysons, and $2400 for the latest model Kirby Vacuums... THey all pretty much do the same thing and that is "suck air".

[Maurice Ungaro]

Chris for ONLY $200, Oneida will sell you a "Festool compatible" Dust Deputy. It clamps right on top of the Festool vacuum. At least you would not have to buy bags anymore...:D

[John Harden]

I vote for the new version Fein Turbo II. I have the older version (w/o VS) and it is significantly quieter than the Festool. Works awesome too.

Regards,

John

[Bill White]

I'll keep my old Ridgid stand by thank you. Got a good filter and adapters for it. Too much tech is too much tech.
Bioll

[Van Huskey]

I vote for the new version Fein Turbo II. I have the older version (w/o VS) and it is significantly quieter than the Festool. Works awesome too.

Regards,

John

If you are going to buy one of the "better" vacs I agree the Fein is every bit as good as the Festool and are less expensive.

[Joe Cowan]

I just, this week, received the Festool CT33 along with the boom arm attachment. Now, my hose and cord come in from overhead and rotates as I need it to. I have ordered the new Oneida cyclone made for the Festool line of vacs and will not have to worry about bags. This is expensive, but how much is nicer, more pleasant hobby time worth. To me, this is 10 times better than the way, I tried, to do in the past. Most time, I would just let the dust go out into the shop. Not any longer.

[johnny means]

I'm visually impaired, but like bicycling.

For riding at night, I bought a $700 light.

It's about 20% better than the next most expensive light ... which ... costs about $350.

I figure ... that's about the same deal as most Festool products: about 20% better than the competition, and about twice as expensive :)

I enjoy my bikes too and bet these guys would be shocked at the prices involved in that hobby.

[Paul Ryan]

$300 doesn't seem too high for the shop vac considering people pay $500 for Dysons, and $2400 for the latest model Kirby Vacuums... They all pretty much do the same thing and that is "suck air".

Right before christmas we bought a bran spanking new Kirby from a Kirby salesman for $900. He started at $2400 but after a little arm twisting we settled on a resonable price. Such as with festool vacums if you want the best you must pay for it but they dont negotiate.

[Van Huskey]

I just, this week, received the Festool CT33 along with the boom arm attachment. Now, my hose and cord come in from overhead and rotates as I need it to. I have ordered the new Oneida cyclone made for the Festool line of vacs and will not have to worry about bags. This is expensive, but how much is nicer, more pleasant hobby time worth. To me, this is 10 times better than the way, I tried, to do in the past. Most time, I would just let the dust go out into the shop. Not any longer.


The boom arm is indeed nice and for those that want to keep cost down an extra hose a little hardware and scraps around the shop can make an excellent version for your work table for very little money and if you do the shopnotes type roll around with or without the dust deputy you can make another for your portable cart.

[Maurice Ungaro]

I enjoy my bikes too and bet these guys would be shocked at the prices involved in that hobby.

Hehe....yeah Johnny. There is that thread on the new Stanley Sweethearts, and I was going to make that analogy, but I didn't want to start up something else. You know...I think my road bike is worth more than my truck.

[Van Huskey]

road bike is worth more than my truck.


Road bikes are for wimps...:p After 14 years and about 20,000 miles I took my first mountain bike ride and I think 10 years later I have done a combined 1,000 miles on my road bikes, my Merckx, Colnago and Land Shark just hang there...

Every hobby I have ever had was stupid expensive and it doesn't help I am a equipment junkie one good thing about woodworking is that it does help reduce furniture and home improvement costs.

[Maurice Ungaro]

I had a nice Klein mt. bike for a 8 years. I only used it to amuse my friends. I don't have any depth perception, so single track ain't a lot of fun for me.

You only rode 20,000 in 14 years? THAT'S whimpy! :D

[Van Huskey]

I had a nice Klein mt. bike for a 8 years. I only used it to amuse my friends. I don't have any depth perception, so single track ain't a lot of fun for me.

You only rode 20,000 in 14 years? THAT'S whimpy! :D


I would agree that 20K in 14 is sad. It was during high school, college and grad school so very few chances to get in more than 10-20 miles in a day, and I usually only used it as Xtraining so maybe 6 months a year at most.

Given your location have you ever done the Assault on Mt Mitchell? I was a yearly staple in my youth. My undergrad was at Wofford so I just had to roll out of bed and ride to the main gates for the start.

If there is a inexpensive adult "male" hobby I have done my best to avoid it.

[Thomas S Stockton]

I have the smallest fein vac used to be a bargain at around $150 came with attachments and a really good filter. Don't know about the current models. I really have no use for variable suction my sander works fine with a single speed unit. A standard Porter-cable hose from one of their sanders hooks up just fine to Festool stuff, I have mine duct taped to the Fein hose. A domino is blowing chunks not fine sawdust so a fancy filter is not as important, but you can always get a cleanstream filter later.
I think bottom line is a cheap vac is not going to hurt a domino in any way and a less expensive shop vac will be fine. Another thing is the domino is about as noisy as a shop vac so you should be wearing ear protection, even the high end vacs make enough racket I don't want to use them with out ear protection.
Don't get hung on having the best tools, get hung up on making things you enjoy and doing the best work your capable of.
Tom

[Maurice Ungaro]

Van,
I've never done Mt. Mitchell, but I have done Bridge -to- Bridge a few times (ends up at the top of Grandfather Mt.). I've contemplated Mitchell, but I really get fed up with having to "own" a number, and ride with 12,000 other people....of extremely varying skills.

When I lived in Atlanta, we'd scoot up to the N. Ga mountains a good bit. I miss that. Greenville is about 3.5 hrs from here, so I need to exploit that more.

[richard poitras]

The biggest thing is variable suction and level of filtration. Get a shop vac, add a Cleanstream filter, add an auto on-off switch and maybe add a dust deputy put it all on a shop built cart with a nice flexible hose and a jury-rigged variable suction and you pretty much have a better mousetrap but it isn't as pretty and you will have about $250 in it. This way you can build it up over time and pick the features you want.

+ one Van........

[Van Huskey]

Van,
I've never done Mt. Mitchell, but I have done Bridge -to- Bridge a few times (ends up at the top of Grandfather Mt.). I've contemplated Mitchell, but I really get fed up with having to "own" a number, and ride with 12,000 other people....of extremely varying skills.

When I lived in Atlanta, we'd scoot up to the N. Ga mountains a good bit. I miss that. Greenville is about 3.5 hrs from here, so I need to exploit that more.

Back in my day there were closer to 1200 than 12000 riders and my last Mitchell I was in a 50+ rider pace line that had screamed (28mph avg) through the foothills and I pulled ahead on a long decent (I was big for a cyclist 185lb) and the front of the pace line went down and took out all but 7 riders that was it for me.


Oh one thing about the Festool that is nice is it has a 20 amp plug where most of the others have 15 amps, which allows a little more breathing room with higher amp tools as long as it is plugged into a 20 amp receptacle. Be aware that the chances are VERY high that a 20 amp circuit probably only has a 15 amp duplex receptacle since they are MUCH cheaper and allowed by the NEC but if you have 12ga wire and a 20 amp breaker you can just wire a 20 amp recept where you plug in the vac. Woodcraft has a auto on/off switch that has two inputs so you could run a 20 amp vac and a 20 amp tool if each are plugged into different circuits, perfect if you have a multi-wire branch circuit which many purpose wired shops have.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

If better suction, better filtering, lower noise, auto on & off, antistatic hose & no adapter required to connect to Festool tools are not important to you, then get the $30 shop vac.

I'm not sure about the 'better suction' part. Those cheaper shop vacs are pretty darn powerful. That's probably why they are so loud. They are meant for general vacuuming rather than dust collection from a tool. They also do liquids which is great when I'm having a water catastophe in my house. :(

Also, I'm not sure about 'better filtering' part either. Most shop vacs have paper filters that, when coated with dust, offer pretty good collection of fines. There are also a bunch of aftermarket HEPA filter options that are pretty inexpensive.

'Lower noise' is good. But it depends on what tool you are using it with. Even a moderately noisy tool like a sander makes me don hearing protection because of the prolong time I'm using it.

'Auto on/off' doesn't seem to be a big deal these days. One can purchase an inexpensive wall adapter from Rockler, Woodcraft, etc. I also am seeing this option now offered on many lower cost brands.

As a caveat, I don't own a Festool vacuum. Mostly because of cost. But, secondarily, I'm not convinced that these are the best choices for general cleanup, thus still requiring that I keep my sceamin' shop vac in my little shop.

I also noticed that the unit does not come with attachments for floor cleaning which further makes me think that it's not really meant for anything other than dust extraction from a portable tool. Also, the thought of paying the high price for bags everytime I empty my vacuum would make me use a broom which defeats the purpose of reducing dust. However, I'm probably overly thrift (i.e., cheap).

However, if it give folks peace of mind, or added enjoyment in their home shops, that's cool. :)

-Jeff :)

[Jim German]

Thanks guys for all of the repsonses.

It sounds like basically the only reason to get one is for the convience of the auto-on/off, sincethe better suction is pretty irrelevant for a domino, and it doesn't have better filtration. And the noise doesn't matter much to me since I'll have ear plugs in anyway.

I'll save my $300 for some other tool I think.

[Jason White]

Huge difference.

The Festool vac (mine is a CT22) has suction control and does a much better job of sucking up chips and sawdust from my saws, routers & sanders than my 14-gallon RIDGID shop vac used to. The filters never get dirty when you use a paper bag, and you don't lose suction until the bags are packed tight. Also no fine dust in the air.

Was well worth the money for me!

Jason


I was looking at a Festool Domino the other day, and while paying $900 for it is one thing, paying another $300 (or more) for one of there vacs seems ridiculous. I looked at the Bosch AirSweep, and its similarly priced. Besides for the fancy auto-off/on features, is there anythign besides for being quieter that makes these better than the nice $30 shop vac I got from lowes?

[Philip Johnson]

Jim

I own the smallest festool vac not even sure of the model without going out and looking, I use it with a sander and domino and it works well and does what it is suppose to do. The auto on and off is a great feature.I don't remember what I paid for the vac, if a tool works and works good you soon forget about the price. That being said I am sure you could make almost anything that sucks work and do the job. I was hesitant to buy the vac too but when they wanted 90 bucks for the hose 40 or 50 for some adapters to make a shop vac work it seemed it was not a lot more to just bite the bullet and get a system designed to work. They do give a small discount too when buying the vac with a tool.

Phil

[Paul Greathouse]

I agree with Van and Richard,

Here's my setup for my track saw cutting and sanding table that works great.
6.5 hp ShopVac brand vac $150
Sears Start/Stop switch $25
Onieda Dust Deputy $100
Clean stream .2 micron filter $35
Extra ShopVac hose $15
Total $325

Added to this is a shop made boom that will swivel to any point on the table that didn't cost me anything but scraps from the shop and some PVC pipe and fittings. It will do anything the Fesstool w/boom will do at a fraction of the cost and I don't have to change bags. When the ShopVac dies, I buy another one for $150 not $300 and I'm back in business. After more than a year of use I haven't had to clean the filter yet, the Dust Deputy is that good.

[Brice Burrell]

I'm not sure about the 'better suction' part. Those cheaper shop vacs are pretty darn powerful. That's probably why they are so loud. They are meant for general vacuuming rather than dust collection from a tool. They also do liquids which is great when I'm having a water catastophe in my house. :(

Also, I'm not sure about 'better filtering' part either. Most shop vacs have paper filters that, when coated with dust, offer pretty good collection of fines. There are also a bunch of aftermarket HEPA filter options that are pretty inexpensive.

'Lower noise' is good. But it depends on what tool you are using it with. Even a moderately noisy tool like a sander makes me don hearing protection because of the prolong time I'm using it.

'Auto on/off' doesn't seem to be a big deal these days. One can purchase an inexpensive wall adapter from Rockler, Woodcraft, etc. I also am seeing this option now offered on many lower cost brands.

As a caveat, I don't own a Festool vacuum. Mostly because of cost. But, secondarily, I'm not convinced that these are the best choices for general cleanup, thus still requiring that I keep my sceamin' shop vac in my little shop.

I also noticed that the unit does not come with attachments for floor cleaning which further makes me think that it's not really meant for anything other than dust extraction from a portable tool. Also, the thought of paying the high price for bags everytime I empty my vacuum would make me use a broom which defeats the purpose of reducing dust.However, I'm probably overly thrift (i.e., cheap).

However, if it give folks peace of mind, or added enjoyment in their home shops, that's cool. :)

-Jeff :)

I'd like address some of the points Jeff mentioned. I don't think his comparison of a cheap shopvac and a quality vac like a Festool are fair.

The Festool can do water too. They make a sponge type filter for liquids. Plus, the vac has sensors that automatically shuts the vac off when it's full so the motor can't such up any water.

HEPA filters for vacuums without a prefilter are largely a waste of money. If debris is allowed to contact the HEPA filter it can ruin it. Small sharp pieces of debris can punch millions of tiny holes in your HEPA filter and it won't take long to degrade the filtration. A prefilter like Festool's filter bags contains the debris so it's not only easy to clean up but it protects the filter from clogging and damage. Besides, inexpensive shopvacs leak like a sieve so there is little point of adding the expense of a HEPA filter.

Those inexpensive auto triggering outlet adapters are generally poor quality. Might be okay for occasional use but with daily use these things don't always hold up well. I know because I've had a few.

Festool vacs are fine for general cleanup, that is, if you don't mind going through more filter bags. Festool vacs come with a small hose meant for dust extraction for hand held power tools not general clean up. A larger hose makes a big difference. The good news is your large Shopvac, Ridgid, Craftsman and other brand hoses and cleaning sets will work with the Festool vacs. I tend to always use a broom first not matter what vac I have. I also still have my old shop vac for cleaning up large volumes of debris.

I won't argue the fact that the filter bags are an ongoing expense. I'm a general contractor so the client pays for the filter bags. I'd be more careful if it were coming out of my pocket. That said, the bags can be reused. They aren't technically reusable but plenty of people have reused their bags numerous times.

Sure the tool are pricey and maybe not for everyone, but.... We have lost a good sense of what value is here in America. We want it for as little as possible even if that means the quality is poor. When we come across products that cost more we are hesitant because we are so used to things with little true value. With Festool your paying for more than just a high quality, well designed tool. You get good service from the company. The proof of the value of Festool products is their high resale value. Try selling a DeWalt tool or better yet, a shopvac and see what you get for it. Further proof is the fact that so many people are so satisfied with their Festool products that often buy more.

Everyone hesitated in buying their first Festool tool, I did too. But once you use the tool you'll wander why you didn't jump in sooner. If for some reason you aren't happy, you've got 30 days to return it no questions asked.

[Doug Shepard]

If better suction, better filtering, lower noise, auto on & off, antistatic hose & no adapter required to connect to Festool tools are not important to you, then get the $30 shop vac.

You forgot about being able stack Systainers on top of it, which saves a bunch of room that otherwise wouldn't get used.

[Tri Hoang]

I used a Ridgid WD1450 ($95), Auto on/off switch from Lee Valley ($40), a .2 micron washable Clearstream filter ($30), and a pack of 3 15G medium dust bags from Walmart ($10). That's $175.

The real capacity of the bag is just around 9G due to having the filter in the middle. The bags really keep the filter clean. I don't generate a lot of dust so a single bag would last quite a while (2-3 months). With my typical usage, the return on investment of the Dust Deputy (was on sale for $100) would be 7-8 years as compared to the bags...At $200 for the Dust Deputy, it would be around 15 years. In addition, the WD1450 set up has about 1/5 (20%) the operating cost of the CT22E (bags).

The WD1450 is significantly more quiet than most shop vacs but still probably lose out to the Festool. However, at 1/3 the initial cost (compared to CT22E) and 1/5 the operating cost (bags), it's an easy choice for me as I pretty much have to wear the ear muff around most tools that generate dusts to be collected with the WD1450. To me, variable suction control is just having an adjustable hole in the collection path and antistatic hose would still collect dust on the out side.

As for the comment about leaking issue with typical shop vacs, I think the leaks are on the negative pressure side, not positive. With the WD1450, I can't find any air path on the positive side that the air would not have gone through the HEPA filter first. So would you care to illuminate my lack of understanding here.

For the record, I do own two other Festool tools...just not the vac.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Sure the tool are pricey and maybe not for everyone, but.... We have lost a good sense of what value is here in America. We want it for as little as possible even if that means the quality is poor.[/rant]

One of my shopvacs is 26 years old, the other is over 30 years old. Both are Sears brand too.

I guess I lost my sense of value and quality a long time ago. I'm guessing that they're in the same place as all my missing socks pairs and all those disappeared yellow pencils. :)

-Jeff :)

[Jeffrey Makiel]

The Festool can do water too. They make a sponge type filter for liquids. Plus, the vac has sensors that automatically shuts the vac off when it's full so the motor can't such up any water.[/rant]

Brice...I'm not picking on you. I didn't articulate myself properly. Also, I'm only speaking from a homeowner standpoint these days.

Mostly all common big box shopvacs are ready for water pickup right out of the box. Many are listed as 'wet/dry' vacs' vs. dust extractors. I did not wish to imply that Festool doesn't pick up liquids. However, with Festool, you have to buy an accessory kit that costs another $100 to pick up liquids. This is getting too costly for me.

Also, every shop vac I've owned had a vacuum suction stop for when the maximum liquid level has been reached or if the vac tips over. I think mine uses a floating ping pong ball thingy as the suction stopper.

I also don't think that mine leaks past the filter canister. That thing is on there pretty tight using a wing nut and gasketed cartridge on all my vacs. If the tank itself leaks, I don't notice it, and it really doesn't matter as the air must still go past the filter.

-Jeff :)

[Alan Schaffter]

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB050004.JPG

Cheap pawnshop Shopvac, mini-cyclone on sale, less than $10 in hose and PVC fittings, total cost < $200 . Great suction, no loss of suction, no expensive bags, no noise, easy to dump- Priceless!!!!

[Brian Kent]

I like that, Alan.

Does anyone use a muffler on a shop vac?

How much change in vacuum and how much change in sound volume?

[Paul Greathouse]

Tri

It sounds like you found the right setup for your situation. Your setup may cater towards a larger group than mine would.

I generate a large amount of dust so bags wouldn't be the way to go for me. I also live in the country so I can dump my Dust Deputy bucket on the burn pile when it fills up, I don't need to worry about bagging like someone in a residential setting would.

In the past 12 months I have built 2 bath vanities, other misc bath casework, a triple router table and I am currently building a new set of kitchen cabinets along with a kitchen desk, tall pantry and more cabinetry for the utility room. So I guess I generate a little more dust than most guys would. I think anyone with semi-heavy use like myself, would really benifit from a Dust Deputy or similar product as opposed to bags.

[Brice Burrell]

Brice...I'm not picking on you. I didn't articulate myself properly. Also, I'm only speaking from a homeowner standpoint these days.

Mostly all common big box shopvacs are ready for water pickup right out of the box. Many are listed as 'wet/dry' vacs' vs. dust extractors. I did not wish to imply that Festool doesn't pick up liquids. However, with Festool, you have to buy an accessory kit that costs another $100 to pick up liquids. This is getting too costly for me.

Also, every shop vac I've owned had a vacuum suction stop for when the maximum liquid level has been reached or if the vac tips over. I think mine uses a floating ping pong ball thingy as the suction stopper.

I also don't think that mine leaks past the filter canister. That thing is on there pretty tight using a wing nut and gasketed cartridge on all my vacs. If the tank itself leaks, I don't notice it, and it really doesn't matter as the air must still go past the filter.

-Jeff :)

Jeff, The $100 accessory isn't necessary for the Festool vac for liquid clean ups. For that matter neither are the sponge filters although you can ruin the HEPA filters by by getting them wet. So it's best to remove them and use the sponges.

I'm familiar with the ping pong ball float. I had a vac that the float was so troublesome I had to remove it. Another one that cage for the float broke so it too had to be removed. It's a great design idea. It's certainly a simpler design than Festool's electronic shut off.

Most shopvacs leak too badly for me to use in my clients homes. A HEPA filter for shopvacs are an improvement over the stock filter. But, you aren't getting HEPA filtration by any means. You can argue the same is true with the Festool vacs. I am certain the filtration of the Festool vacs are vastly superior to the average shopvac with a HEPA filter.

And don't worry about picking on me, I can take it. :D