New Here and need advice

[Jiten Patel]

Hello all,

I've been on here reading for a while and thought Id post and get some of your expert advice and opinions.

My partner and I are looking into starting a card business using a Laser Engraver/Cutter to cut intricate designs into the card.


Ive been looking into suitable laser cutters and found so many contenders its easy to get confused. We would be cutting card of varied thickness, and producing about 1000/2000 cards a week in the beggining. I guess I need to ask a million questions but I'll start with the basics I guess.

We have been looking at the GCC range (C180, Mercury 2 and Spirit), Epilog lasers (Zing and Mini). We are confused about what sort of power we need as we have been getting conflicting advice. 30w, 40w or 60w>]

And we have also been told to stay away from Chinese Glass tube lasers and gere towards a Synrad laser and not go for Coherent Deos tubes as they do not last as long....is there any truth to this.

So can anyone shed some light onto this and maybe point us in the right direction?

Thanks in advance

Jit

[Dan Hintz]

If you'll only be cutting paper and thin cardboards, you can get away with the lower-powered cartridges... I'm assuming vector cuts, so you'll tend to max out the speed of the carriage pretty quickly, even at low power. I personally wouldn't go above probably a 45W cartridge for such a task, and would probably be pretty happy with a 30-35W unit.

[Jiten Patel]

So to cope with future demands a 40w should be the most I would need?

I will be using vector cutting for the most part, will abode Illustrator work ok with these machines or must I change to CorelDraw?

[Dan Hintz]

Illustrator will be fine with the major manufacturers (Epilog, ULS, etc.)... I cannot say for the larger Chinese machines, but I know there's no direct link with the smaller Chinese machines.

[Richard Rumancik]

Jiten, you did not ask this, but I'll answer it anyway . . .

You need to consider if an x-y type laser is suitable for what you want to do. Let's suppose that you want to cut 2000 cards a week. And let's assume 5 minutes cutting per card. That would be 10,000 minutes of machine time. Which seems like you would need to run 24/7 to do this.

Now keep in mind that when it comes to cutting "intricate designs" 5 minutes on an xy laser bed does not do much cutting. If you plan to cut anything complicated it will take much longer.

I would seriously look at a galvo laser (marker). If you can keep your designs in a small zone say 8" x 10" then that might work. It would work on pre-printed material, but it is not large enough to cut the perimeter out, if that is what you wanted to so. If you want to go larger (and tile) then you need a galvo on an x-y table. This will cost some serious money.

You could cut cards on an x-y table but if it takes 20 minutes per card then your cards will be very expensive and I don't think you will find a market. Even with a simple (stationary) galvo laser, you will have some challenges to make the numbers work.

[Tania Duper]

Epilog has a laser splitter to cut 2 shapes at the same time, cutting the time in half.
http://www.epiloglaser.com/legend_doublehead.htm

You may also be able to stack the paper so using a high powered laser may be needed to cut through all the layers. Of course, one has to watch for burning or flaming and play around with how many sheets you can stack before you have problems.

[Jiten Patel]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice.

I am quite worried about the timings. Some of our designs are quite basic and some really complex therefore not all would take 5/10 mintues.

Is it possible to stack the card? Ive been told thats not wise? If I can that would be a bonus.....

My Budget for a machine is around £10/15000 so im guessing the bigger machine with the double heads or a galvo would be way out of our budget.

Can anyone reccomend a suitable machine?

[Dan Hintz]

You can stack, but you won't get more than 2-3 sheets (I've heard as high as 4-5 in some cases, though they appear to be rare) in a stack before char begins to appear on the edge (and you normally would alternate layers of tissue paper between the cardstock).

I cannot say what pricing is like in your area, but your budget seems within the lower limit of reason. £10/15000 equates to around US$15-20k, which would probably get you a basic 45W machine with a large bed (18" x 24") and possibly the laser doubler option.

[Richard Rumancik]

I wouldn't base my plan on being able to stack until you have tried this on someone else's machine or had a demo.

I have a hard enough time maintaining clean edges on paper/cardstock with one thickness. If you have more layers and the layers separate, they will trap smoke between the layers. You will also have a more obvious discolored edge, as you will have to increase the power.

Even if you have a method to hold the layers together, as soon as you cut a few holes the layers will separate from each other.

When cutting paper you may get some discoloration, smoke haze, and residual smell in the paper. You will need to come up with ways to keep each under control.

[Viktor Voroncov]

It's not easy and I can say practically impossible cut more than 2 layers together with acceptable cut quality. Laser doubler also not perfect solution as you will have possibility cut two objects same time but power will be divided on 2 :(

[Rodne Gold]

A galvo laser will work very quickly , you can get marking fields as large as 210mm x 210mm - but something 140 x 140 would prolly work for card.
You could easily make a shuttle system to minimise loading and unloading.
You will not need appreciable power either for this task , a 10-20w Nd yag or the like would be more than adequate.
Cycle times on quite complex designs would be less than 30 secs including shuttling , you could do about 100 an hour or more depending on design.
3-500 cards a day would be easily achievable.
Apart from card you can do a lot more with these lasers , like marking metals , plastics and so on , you could cut foils for applying to the cards and indeed engrave the card itself.
You could also buy a clicking press and produce the designs a lot quicker and cheaper - however this would require clicking dies and largeish production orders.
GCC (laserpro) make these glavo lasers in co2 and various other laser types. I think you are looking at the upper end of your budget or perhaps 5k more , however a 2nd hand machine would be well within your money.
There are maintenance costs - some light sources need replacement after x amount of hours but assuming using amortising over a 2 yr period of the laser engraver cost and maintenance of $25k , it means the cost of lasering including machine cost is 1k a month or $50 a day and on a production of 4000 cards a month , it equates to about 25c a card (+ labour and other stuff) so lets say in total , 50c (30p?) a card at your lower level of production. Of course you can supplement this with other work as 1000 cards a week will leave you plenty time for other stuff.

[Doug Griffith]

First off, I'd outsource until I at least had throughput/timing issues figured out.

Then, how about multiple cheap Chinese machines. Start with one to get your feet wet. Once you've got multiple machines up and running, you can set them up as cells and have redundancy should one fail.

[Viktor Voroncov]

Glass tube in chinese lasers have some fluctuation in power during work - mostly depend from temperature of water inside cooling system. As result could be different cutting quality in one card. Galvo is not bad solution.

[Richard Rumancik]

A galvo laser will work very quickly , you can get marking fields as large as 210mm x 210mm - but something 140 x 140 would prolly work for card.
You could easily make a shuttle system to minimise loading and unloading.
You will not need appreciable power either for this task , a 10-20w Nd yag or the like would be more than adequate.
. . . .

Yes, I agree with Rodne that to start off I would find a galvo system onto which I could develop some kind of shuttle/rail/pallet system where you could slide work under the laser head. If you get a versatile marking head then you could automate it as much as your production justified. You can start off with manual loading/unloading, then gradually add some bells and whistles (feeder, indexing, optical registration, unloading etc.) as your budget and production allows.

Jiten, although a lot of these galvo lasers are called "laser markers" they are quite suitable for cutting thin materials. So don't be confused by the terminology. You don't really want to look at the "real" machines used in the industry to do things like cards. You'd need 10x the budget and 100x the volume.

If you plan to register your designs to preprinted cardstock the registation aspect needs to be well thought out. Also, be aware that laser cutting through preprinted ink has it's own issues. The ink may discolor or haze. Textured and woven paperstocks can help hide some discoloration.

Rodne - did you really mean to suggest a yag laser? I would have thought CO2.

[Dan Hintz]

Rodne - did you really mean to suggest a yag laser? I would have thought CO2.
I'm sure he meant CO2... just that most galvos are YAG, so it's an easy slip.

[Viktor Voroncov]

Galvo: how about CUTTING quality on the borders of maximum working area? Laser light will fall on material surface under considerable angle.

[Dan Hintz]

Not really a problem if you're cutting a thin material such as paper...

[Jiten Patel]

Rodne,

Thank you, that is a fantastic response (thanks to the others too).

Ok so a shuttle system? How would one create such a thing. And can you point in the right direction for some more info on these galvo lasers?

And we considered outsourcing, but got ridiculous quotes of £5-6 for each A5 card! We thought that was a ridiculous price hence why we thought investing in a machine would be the way forward.

[Bill Cunningham]

I don't know how many different designs you have in mind, or how many cards you need to cut from each design. If your designs are going to be pretty standard with you, and or your going to cut thousands from each design, a laser is not the most cost effective way to do it. You could have a lot of steel rule dies made for 15-20k$ and a used click press would not be all that hard to find. With a few dies, a click press, you could have 2000 cards cut in virtually no time... If your only doing a hundred of each design, then scrapping that design when complete, a laser would work.. But for large numbers, die cutting is the only way to make money.

[Rodne Gold]

I would suggest another type of laser other than C02 , like a yag or ndwhatever , if it can cut paper (which I think they can) as they would be more versatile in some respects , like metal marking , than a co2 would. He would obviously have to investigate the options more as to what can be processed and marked and whether he had a market for it...
A shuttle system could be a real home made affair that allows one card to be loaded and another to be lasered at the same time - maybe something as basic as something using a sliding desk drawer mechanism and a piece of wood with an indentation for the card ... havent worked out the exact details.. :)
I actually think my calculations re cycle times etc are overly pessimistic and are a worst case scenario as i have seen far faster cycle times with some pretty complex thin stock cutting.

[Jiten Patel]

We would have around 30 stock designs which but some of these designs offer initals (which obviously would need to be changed) and then we would offer a bespoke designing service, which we would design a card from the ground up tailoring the clients needs into it, so I think die cutting (which we looked into) doesnt offer the flexibility we need.

Ok so looking into a galvo laser looks like the way forward (still not ruling out a laser engraver). Can anyone reccommend a few companies which offer small laser marking systems so I can shoot out a few enquiries?

[Dan Hintz]

Rodney,

I love the idea of a machine that can work with a lot of materials, but I don't believe YAG is the proper way to go for this... the 1-2 micron wavelength of a YAG isn't really suited for organics like paper, so Jiten would need a significantly more powerful unit to get the same throughput (and YAGs are already 2-3 times the price of a comparable wattage CO2). In fact, YAGs are often used to clean contaminants off of paper surfaces because of the reduced chance of damage to the substrate. That said, I'm not as versed in YAGs as I am in CO2 units, so I'm interested in hearing cases where that's not true...

[Viktor Voroncov]

Agree with Dan, for example Chinese lamp NdYag lasers do not engrave/cut paper.

[Richard Rumancik]

Take a look at the Synrad site and see what they have for co2 markers. Also look at some examples in their applications section.

Laser markers are a bit different than laser systems. Often a manufacturer will buy a laser and marking head to mark their own parts (bar code,part number etc) and build their own enclosure, provide rails for feeding material under the head, select their own software etc.

If you do a Google image search on CO2 laser marker you will see a lot of variations and may get some ideas and it may point to some manufacturers. The tube and marking head are not all that large. But you may need to build a table, elevator platform, shroud of some sort, arrange for exhaust air etc.

You can build some rails with card pallets out of aluminum extrusions and wood. Probably quick and dirty to start and then rebuild it properly when you know what you really need.

The reason why you got quotes so high is because it is not economical to make greeting cards on an xy laser. It's not that the suppliers are making bags of money, it's that it is taking 10 minutes plus to make each card and so the quotes you received are appropriate for the equipment. Just that it is the wrong equipment.

[Richard Rumancik]

Galvo: how about CUTTING quality on the borders of maximum working area? Laser light will fall on material surface under considerable angle.

Viktor, maybe it isn't as bad as you think. The galvo mirror does not focus on the material directly. Otherwise there would be a considerable out-of-focus condition as well as the angle you refer to at the edges of the marking zone. In between the mirror and the material (paper), there would be a flat field lens. This will capture the beam from the galvo mirror, focus it, and direct it downwards. The beam may not be fully perpendicular but it is not at 45 degrees either.

Jiten, you need to look for a large field lens as your part is large. A larger field lens will be more expensive. Unfortunately it may result in a larger spot size. Whatever you choose, make sure you have a demo of its capabilities before you buy anything to ensure it will do what is needed for your application.

[David Fairfield]

Besides the time factor I see two more potential snags--

*Smoke staining on white paper. Nobody wants to get a dirty card.

*Beam reflection off the vector grid. You get little tick marks that are hard to avoid.

You can work around these problems, but its going to eat into your time and add to the learning curve. :(

Be sure to get demos before you buy a laser for this application.

Dave

[Dee Gallo]

*Smoke staining on white paper. Nobody wants to get a dirty card.


Dave

Dirty Cards - Sounds like a new direction for card designers to pursue: rad cards with burn marks...should appeal to the kids who buy jeans with bullet holes and the like!

:D dee

[Richard Rumancik]

Besides the time factor I see two more potential snags--

*Smoke staining on white paper. Nobody wants to get a dirty card.

*Beam reflection off the vector grid. You get little tick marks that are hard to avoid.

David, a vector grid would not be the best option for this. For this application it would be best to cut in air. I would imagine a card pallet as a rectangular piece of wood or acrylic with a hole cut out for the shape. If it is very delicate then a more complicated (dedicated) pallet may be needed (say with pins) and the cut sequence controlled well. Otherwise there can be some flimsy pieces unsupported during cutting.

Smoke is always an issue with paper. Residual smell is also a concern. These need to be addressed in some way.

[David Fairfield]

Dirty Cards - Sounds like a new direction for card designers to pursue: rad cards with burn marks...should appeal to the kids who buy jeans with bullet holes and the like!

:D dee


Haha, then there's the other kind of dirty. I might like to get one, but it would really depend on the sender. :o

Dave

[Jiten Patel]

Ok Ive done a bit of research, and as expected there are quite a few manufacturers out there (Arghhh)

Sticking with a tip, GCC (laserpro) have these marking systems, one is in an encloser and the other two seem like that are just the laser unit? Would that mean I would have to get enclosures for them or am I missing the point completely?

Also the laser type is different on each....Nd:YVO4, Q-Switched, Fiber?

Any Ideas if I am on the right track with this?

I have enclosed one of our designs to give you guys an idea of what we are trying to acheive.... so that might clear things up a little (I hope)!

[Jiten Patel]

....atachment

[Rodne Gold]

A galvo is definately the right way to go for designs like that.
I have looked up various laser sources and types , the fibre laser seems to be the best of all - but whether it will cut paper , I have no idea

The way forward is contact the manfgrs you wish to deal with , explain your requirments , ask em whats best for your application and ask for samples of what you want to do.
Be careful about sources , some might need replacement after fairly limited use and might be expensive.. Ask what the running costs are.
Apply the 1/2 x2 rule , ie halve the quoted output or thruput and double the quoted running costs and if it still is profitable , it's worth a bash.
I have done a lot of laser cutting on business cards and the like and its profitable and with my co2 lasers havent had discoloration issues at all. The quicker you can cut the less chance of heat affected zones there are - ie less charring.
More powerful lasers will also minimise charring , think of trying to burn a small hole in paper with lets say a BIC lighter versus a small soldering torch thats a lot hotter. The lighter will do it , but messier and less accurately than the torch with its small pinpoint flame.
Ps to see timings and systems , search Youtube for "laser cutting greeting cards"

[Dan Hintz]

Rodney is right on one thing, a galvo system is the only way to go, if you must go with a laser (i.e., short run cards, too few to economically press cut)... a carriage system will take forever cutting that out compared to a galvo.

However, you'll still want a CO2 system, not a fiber (i.e., YAG), so don't confuse the manufacturers in your quote by asking for fiber. CO2 galvos exist, but the fiber version are certainly more prevalent, so your searches will turn up quite a few more of those.

[Tony Lenkic]

Jiten,

Here is a link you should investigate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0vyosN_5cY

[Doug Griffith]

Jiten,

Here is a link you should investigate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0vyosN_5cY

I noticed how the footage of the actual engraving is far slower than the shots showing conveyor movement. I guess it wouldn't go well with the soundtrack being slower.

[Tony Lenkic]

Doug,

The process speed may have been reduced in this clip. Laser can mark a lot faster if one can synchronize conveyor and marker. The idea is awesome for fast turn around IMO.

[Jiten Patel]

Hey Folks, sorry its been a while, been busy planning my wedding! 2 and half weeks left....gulp!

So we've looked into Galvos and shortlisted it down to two (maybe three).

They are

Electrox Razor Co2
GCC Stellarmark I
and the other I'm still researching.

We've been getting conflicting timings for our designs. The test cuts came back and look unbelivably good, but one company said it took 35 seconds to cut a complex design and another said it took 1 min 30 to cut a much simpler design.

Does anyone have any experinece with these models to offer some advice...or does anyone have any of these to do some impartial test cuts for me? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Kind Regards

Jit

[Doug Lynch]

Maybe if you post one of the items you would like to test, several of us could run a test or two and post the results.

Doug Lynch

[Andrea Weissenseel]

I don't know how much faster, than a CO² those lasers are, but I'm cutting designs like the one you've attached and it takes about 15 min. Can only speak for my CO² though

Andrea

[Viktor Voroncov]

We did this tests on GCC Mercury 40 Wt and GCC Stellarmark 30 Wt. Both lasers are CO2, Mercury is flying optics, Stellarmark - galvo head. Time of cutting was approx 14 minutes for Mercury and 20-30 sec for Stellarmark.
BUT ..... working area on Stellarmark is 300x300 promised, in reality circle 300 mm in diameter :(

[Cynthia Block]

I am very new to laser engraving. I am wondering how you cut a design like the one above? I know it has to be in red. I have tried Corel Trace and other ways in Corel, but I cannot figure out how to outline the clipart or design in red. There is no way that I can design something like that. If ya' all can, I am envious of your talents. Thanks for not rolling your eyes after reading this (that is, I am assuming you didn't ;)

[Dee Gallo]

Hi Cynthia,

Welcome to the fun! Two things: first, if you were to cut out that design, all the black parts would fall out and leave you with something like a stencil (or a big jigsaw puzzle). Second, once you trace or draw your shape, just right click on the outline and then click on the red color box, making sure the line width is set to HAIRLINE. This is what really indicates "cut" not so much the color.

Also, unless you want to engrave (raster) the black fill parts, you should make them clear.

Enjoy the experience of learning, it's always an adventure!

cheers, dee

[Dean Carpenter]

Hi Jiten,

You need a paperblaster from SEI (Italy). You can see it on Youtube. It's built for your job and even has outomated paper loading but unfortunately:

1) I don't sell it!!
2) It's way outside of your budget.


regards

Dean

[Jiten Patel]

Thanks all for all your advice.

The paper blaster is exactly what we need, but your right Dean, wayyy to expensive....for now.

We have settled for a Co2 30w Galvo. Its down to the last 2. Just getting prices and everything together, negotionating and should be putting down the money next week....Finally!

Cant wait to get my hands my new toy!