Work Bench and other goodies tool GLOAT & learning to cut dovetails....

[John A. Callaway]

Okay, so we got up at 4 a.m. this morning and we hit the road around 4:45. It is usually a three and a half hour drive from my house to downtown Atlanta. It was supposed to snow this morning in ATL , so I wanted to give myself a bit of a window. The bride had to be back into Savannah by 3 p.m. for a meeting at the SCAD campus. We were back by 1:30 p.m. missed the snow.

Anyway.

Got the bench home, set up, and gonna get to using it here in a bit.
Also, this thing is VERY sturdy, there is no side to side racking....on the carpet or on the tile, although it will slide across my tile if you lean on it. Standing in front of it on the carpet, it will rock forward and backward just a little bit... I put it on a piece of 1/2 inch plywood that I have... still does it just a bit. So weight wont be used to prevent racking, more so sink it into the carpet fibers to work the feet into a stable footing.

I am very happy with this bench. It literally blows the Sjorberg out of the water. The top is thick, ( i will get all the measurements if somebody wants more than what is on the highland website. ) and the vises are good quality. This is a bench that is very well thought out. Even with it being the small bench, the quality shows and the cost is worth it to me at least. ( I know several of you will say I coulda built one for half of what I paid for it. )

I picked up a block plane today, some water stones ( couldn't spring for the Nortons right now ) a honing guide, a 4 inch square, along with the bench from highland. I went to HD and grabbed a granite tile, some 320 to flatten the chisel backs ( I have some 1500 and 2000 grit to polish them with ) and some 1x3 and 1x4 clear pine to start practing those dovetails ....

On to the pics.

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[John A. Callaway]

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Making nice ribbons fresh out the box....

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2069.jpg

My dovetail practice pieces lying in wait....

[Steve Pirrelli]

That's a sweet bench. Congrats!

[John A. Callaway]

I gathered everything up.... I also snagged a little cheap tool box set at Lowe's to tidy thing up when I am done working......went looking for a set of dividers. Highland was out of the three pack... Lowe's didn't have them either. So, this is where I am now, after dinner I am gonna do a little honing and flattening to those chisels, then start my first set of dovetails....

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2071.jpg

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[David Gendron]

Good for you, it look like a good bench(even if I like Roubo style bench better). Are the bench dogs metals? the Kings stones are realy good stones BTW. Look like you are off the a good woodworking start! Keep us updated on your progress!

[David Gendron]

Ho and one more thing, it would be good if you would like, to let us know how much work it was to flaten and sharpen the chisels. and well or bad they keep an edge!

[brian c miller]

Is you bench on carpet... inside the house?

Flattening is dependent on how bad your chisels are to start. Try marking the back with "sharpie scribble" and take a few swipes... if there are low spots the marker will still be there. Lots of marker left mean lots of flattening to do.

[Andy Hsieh]

congrats on everything - That's the same bench I was gonna buy if I had had the money way back when. It never ceases to amaze me the posts of people who manage to get their bench to be located in a bedroom or inside the actual house. I barely had clearance to get mine from the garage into the unfinished basement :o

that is one great score! enjoy the ride.

[Darnell Hagen]

Nice pile of newness! I'm envious.

So's you know, just because it's granite doesn't mean it's flat, before you grind away at anything check it with a straightedge.


Here's the easiest way I've found to flatten chisels-

http://thewayiwood.blogspot.com/2010/01/lapping.html

Were I you, I'd return the dovetail markers and pick up the sliding bevel instead, the small size is ideal for dovetails and is good for other work, too.


There's nothing wrong with King stones. Pick up a small fretsaw, it'll make clearing dovetail waste a snap.

[dan sherman]

Is you bench on carpet... inside the house?

I second this question! :D

[David Gilbert]

John,

Your workshop is clearly more elegant than mine. It appears that you have both carpeting and a chair rail. I'm guessing that you have some elegant projects in your future. It sure looks like you have some lovely tools to work with too!

Cheers,
David

[Tony Shea]

That carpet is going to end up a disaster once you really start to indulge in the wonderful hobby. Believe me that dovetails will not be where it stops. Nice bench, would have loved to saved a bit of time and bought one. But then again it's a satisfaction thing too. I enjoyed the process. But good luck and make some sawdust to grind into that new carpet.

[David Christopher]

John, thats a great gloat...looks like you won the lottery..
Ive been to Highlands a few times and my wallet is allways thinner when I leave

[John A. Callaway]

yes, it is in the house.... I have another thread that got kinda long talking about the situation.... I own a townhouse, with out a garage. The house should be sold well before I get into anything big, and the bench will most likely wind up upstairs in a extra bedroom, once the bedroom suite up there is sold... In the mean time, the dining room is where it's at. I plan to put down some mats pretty soon. I have a shop vac that use on the cars in the foyer closet...saw dust will be kept to a minimum ... and I am smart enough to understand no sanding or power tools of any kind in the house. I grew up with a dad who is a woodworker ( into turning now ) and I have ran plenty of crown molding and built several mantles .... so I am aware of the mess... I am really trying to go all neander if I possibly can, sans table saw. ( I saw a cool portable Porter Cable at Lowe's today, very similar to the rigid model, only 200 dollars less !!! ) And not all of this was purchased today... buying what i can , when I can.

I just sharpened up those chisels. I learned that the honing guide isn't gonna work on these, even the larger ones. The bevel sides have a square edge, not a angle so the guide wont clamp them well.... And , I am really comfortable free handing the angle with them. I have a Tormek at my disposable a few miles away ( dad again ) but I wanna go at it with stones. This set was pretty flat across their backs.... a couple of them had a little hollow down the middle, but nothing too bad. The stones worked great.

gonna go try to lay out a set of tails.....

[gary Zimmel]

Quite the haul John. Good for you.
Looks like you are pretty much ready do do some dovetails.
Keep us updated on your progress.

[John A. Callaway]

Okay, cut the first set. Tails first, then pins. Pine chips and cracks pretty easy. at least they fit together...The veritas saw is a little hard to start a kerf, but that should fade with practice.... Please tell me any thoughts you have. I plan on doing another set or two tomorrow after I get a few things done around the house.

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Gimme what ever thoughts you got as soon as they come up....

Thanks guys.

[James Scheffler]

I just sharpened up those chisels. I learned that the honing guide isn't gonna work on these, even the larger ones. The bevel sides have a square edge, not a angle so the guide wont clamp them well.... And , I am really comfortable free handing the angle with them. I have a Tormek at my disposable a few miles away ( dad again ) but I wanna go at it with stones. This set was pretty flat across their backs.... a couple of them had a little hollow down the middle, but nothing too bad. The stones worked great.

gonna go try to lay out a set of tails.....

I have the Irwin chisels and that honing guide. I actually just sharpened them tonight. It works, but barely. The 1/4" takes a lot of fussing to get it to clamp right. I suppose with slight changes in production in the last few years (new manufacturer - the chisels are no longer made in England), they may not play at all together any more.

It would probably work better if you grind the chisel sides down on a grinder. I might just try that on my 1/4". Thanks for getting my brain working on that! :)

Jim

P.S. I just saw your dovetail pics. That's actually really good for your first try!

[David Gendron]

The DT's look realy good and they will only get better with practice... I think you already know what to do, it is only a mather of practice! As for you honing guide, a read Chis Shwarz saying that they usualy need a little filing here and there to make them work good. So maybe you want to email him to know what to do!
Good start on the slipery slope of hand tools woodworking.

[Brian Kent]

Looking good. I'm impressed that you are showing your dovetails before cleanup. What Veritas saw is that?

[John A. Callaway]

It is the 14 tpi saw... And I didn't clean them up because I didn't want to hide anything from those in the know ..... cause well.... I wanna know !!

Yeah, I have both of Schwarz's books, as well the book Hand tool Essentials which he had a lot of his articles in....

Truth be told, I will save the jig for the plane blades...and until I can get the MKII from veritas. I took to free handing these chisels pretty easy. I tried to take some pics of them to show, but the camera really wouldn't pick up the mirror finish on the edge...maybe in the sunlight tomorrow. Plus these are starter chisels to practice with, from using them to cut, and to learn to sharpen before I upgrade.

I really like the little brass mallet. It feels good in the hand and has a good weight to it.

[gary Zimmel]

Your first one looks pretty darn good John.

If you are having trouble getting your saw to start a cut try and take about 80% of the saws weight off the wood.
The better you become with your sawing the better those dovetails will get.
Sawing exercises are a must to me..

[Jim Koepke]

Nice looking bench. Blows the Sjoberg right out of the water.

I have watched a lot of videos on cutting dovetails and one of them really helped me with getting a saw started. It is by a woman and she starts the cut with the saw barely touching the wood and moves it back and forth real quick to start the kerf.

Another method is to start the cut on the side closest to you with the tip of the saw pointing up.

You will eventually find what works best for you.

jim

[Darnell Hagen]

Nice first set! Wow, that's impressive. Well done!

It looks like you're chisel is pushing back over the line, if you take smaller bites that will help. I saw out my waste, if I need to I'll just take a light paring cut to define the bottom of the tails. I don't use a mallet at all when making DT's.


the saw barely touching the wood and moves it back and forth real quick to start the kerf.


Agreed. Start at the far tip of the saw, no downward pressure, light grip, short strokes. Start with a push stroke, all the teeth touching. Short strokes until you have a kerf, non dominant hands thumb guiding.



videos ... by a woman


If you mean Kari Hultmans, it's awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp_aW0rO2uk&feature=channel

[Michael Peet]

John, I wish my first set had come out as nicely as yours. Keep doing one or two a day and you will quickly get the hang of it.

I have that saw. It will get easier to start once it gets broken in a little. Having a real bench must make things easier. You should see mine! :eek:

You might consider a marking knife instead of a pencil for marking the pins. It makes a much finer line, but more importantly it makes a clean-edged "slot" that you can register your paring chisel in to clean up the sides of the pins. Although I had repeatedly read this, it took me a while to try it. Pencil is still fine for the tails.

+1 on the fret saw suggestion; it makes waste removal quicker for me, at any rate.

Mike

[John A. Callaway]

Thanks guys, a fret saw and a marking knife are definitely the next to be purchased. I had to remove the lead stick out the pencil to lay out the pins... I will break out the exacto set today to see if that helps ....

[Rob Young]

Gimme what ever thoughts you got as soon as they come up....

Thanks guys.

Good job! I did the same for practice but go ahead and take it a little further. Glue up the dovetail, let it set up and the next day do the planing down as if it were going to be a finished project. This will tell you a little bit more about how you did cutting square inside the sockets and once glued and planed you get to learn more about what is and isn't acceptable in fit once you add glue to the mix.

I have the Veritas DT saw (Xmas gift) and really like it too. I've not had a problem starting a kerf with it. You might want to experiment just a little bit with how much weight you put on the saw during the start as well as tipping forward or back to start on the front or back edge instead of straight across. Both work, but one may work better for you. I've started tipping up to start the kerf on the back (inside) with very light pressure then I can rock back and cut square.

Have fun with your new toys, I mean tools!

[David Keller NC]

John - One very strong recommendation based on personal experience with a concrete-floored basement workshop, but a carpeted upstairs. I'd strongly suggest putting down a sheet of plywood, laminate flooring, roll of lineoleum or other impermeable surface down under your bench and extending out from it at least 3 feet in all directions.

Getting small wood chips out of carpet is real murder, regardless of how good of a vacuum you may have. I've got chips "permanently" embedded in my upstairs carpet from being careless in not completely cleaning my shoes after a day in the workshop.

[James Taglienti]

Very nice setup... i always wanted a proper bench, but i haven't got enough room in the shop for one...

[Jim Koepke]

If you mean Kari Hultmans, it's awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp_aW...eature=channel

That is not the one. That is awesome and I like her ambidexterity. That is also something that just takes practice.

I think the woman I saw was asian, but not sure. She started the saw with a quick and short back and forth motion, about 4 strokes before using the full saw length.

jim

[John A. Callaway]

second set cut, I have a long way to go.... I cut these tails and pins so small I had to grind down and sharpen a pocket screw driver to use as a 1/8" paring chisel just to clean out the waste... this is 1" x 3" pine...


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[Darnell Hagen]

Marking knives aren't necessary, I've got one, it's great for pulling slivers out of your hand and that's about it. It doesn't fit when you start doing skinny pins. An exacto does a better job, just be aware that you're registering the side of the bevel and not the side of the blade.

Actually, my favourite way to transfer the layout is Roy Underhills method. Before you chop out the waste, use the kerf to guide your saw blade, use the saw to mark the pin board. A light backward pull is all you need, you don't want a kerf, just a mark. Then saw to the outside of that mark.

When you chop out the waste, work from both sides of the board. Then your chisel won't blow out the grain when it exits the stock.

You're doing great, my first sets of dt's looked way worse.

[Michael Peet]

Hi John,

That second one looked like it was tough.. One suggestion to make things a little easier on yourself might be to use fewer tails and pins for now - there's fewer mating surfaces to get "just right". As your proficiency grows, you can move on to more complex joinery. JMHO of course.

I like the skinny pins too, and an Exacto #11 works just fine to mark them.

:)

Mike

[John A. Callaway]

I will try that with the saw, the exacto line is very hard to se in the end grain....and marking over it with a mechanical pencil doesn't really work.

I am chiseling from both sides of the board...I was just looking over my pics... I dunno what I did to get the chips out behind the marking gauge line....

[John A. Callaway]

cut sets 3, 4, 5, tonight. went a little bigger this time to try and make it a little easier to see my mistakes.

set # 3 was a complete waste. I laid them out backwards...didnt catch it until I was cutting the second board. Oh well :(

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set # 4 has its problems... I realized how to get the saw started good, but I cut the to the lines on basically the wrong side on the pins... and the joint wouldnt close up all the way. I guess my chisel clean up wasn't so good...so I went back and tried to pare out some more end grain in the bottom of each piece and it didn't help...

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set # 5 came out to be the cleanest joint so far. except it was so tight that it ended up splitting the pin board. but even with that problem... the joint looks good to me as far as sawing to the line and controlling the chisel a little better.

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[John A. Callaway]

I also noticed something tonight with my veritas dovetail marker ... I guess I will take it with me next time I go to Atlanta or maybe just order another one. See what you think...

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[Jim Koepke]

I also noticed something tonight with my veritas dovetail marker ... I guess I will take it with me next time I go to Atlanta or maybe just order another one. See what you think...




I bet if you give them a call, you will not have to wait nor order another.

I have made a few of my own markers and have also used a bevel gauge. One time at a hardwood lumber yard in Berkeley, CA these were in the display cabinet. They were cheap because the guy who ordered them thought they were squares instead of dovetail markers. They are made by Joseph Marples of England. Related to the other Marples and there are a lot of them to be related to in the wood tool making world. As I understand it, Joseph Marples & Co. is still in business.

142422

jim

[John A. Callaway]

I think I may wanna get some markers like that . I like these ones that I have though, they are durable easy to use and stackable I am sure Veritas will swap this one out... I just think mailing off something this small is a bit ridiculous...but, it is slighty crooked out of the milling machine. the other one is quite fine.

[Darnell Hagen]

It's not cheating to put a clamp across your pin board to control splitting.

Tap them together slowly, if it's too tight pull them apart and look at your joint. Pare a little from the shiny spots, thats where it's pinching.

The bigger pins are a little easier to learn on, you may want to try thinner stock, too. Drawer sides thicker than 1/2" look too chunky, anyway. I don't think I'd go thinner than 3/8", though. It gets harder to keep the teeth engaged to control the stalling of the saw.

You're doing good, do you feel like you're making progress?

[dan grant]

looking good, i think thinner stock is a good idea to start, no more then 1/2" thick

[James Davis]

Those tails are looking good. I don't know that thinner stock will make a difference but getting poplar instead of pine helped me a lot. gluing and planing will also help to see what you have.

JMTCW
James

[John A. Callaway]

I think I am progressing. I do agree , thinner stock might make a bit of a difference... I wanna get these through tails down pat then start in on half blinds... by then I should be using a better set of chisels.

[Tony Shea]

I honestly think thicker stock is better to start with as is gives you a longer path to align the saw with. Not sure if that makes sense but don't know how to really say it. But you are on the right path. I like to keep mine tight when I get done with the sawing and chisel waste, then I will test fit. It should be real tight. The pencil marks that are left over will usually tell me where it is too tight and I will just pare it out until I get a nice slightly snug fit. Never force them as you will split the pin board every time. I know you want to just go into making the entire joint but I spent a lot of time in the beginning with just sawing exercises. Take a board and lay out the thickness line with your marking gauge. Then draw straight lines across the end of the board about a 1/16" or 1/8" apart. You will be able to tell what lines are off and what lines are straight. Move on to straight lines that are at an angle relative to the endgrain as pins are. Then move on to lines angled like tails are across the board face. Even a few years after being ok at dovetails I will still go through these practise sessions at least once a month. They really help me out with sawing technique which IMO is the most important aspect of making quality dovetail joints. Keep up the practise and take care of that carpet.

[John A. Callaway]

I have a big piece of masonite ( 4x6 ) that i put under the bench for now. I am doing pretty good at keeping everything clean. I am kind of a clean freak... Shop vac is positioned right next to the bench, and I turn it on between every board to keep everything nice and clean.

I am gonna run over to Lowe's today and grab some poplar and pull the dewalt miter saw out and chop up some to try it out. I think lowes carries sticks thinner than 3/4" ...

Keeps the feedback coming guys. I really appreciate it. The down side is, I have to back to the railroad tonight, so the updates and picks may drop off for a day or two at a time, but they won't stop. I haven't found a way to take my bench and tools with me from hotel to hotel... I need one of those George Jetson suitcases......HHHmmmm....

[Tom Henderson2]

Could you post a side view of the problem DT marker?

[John A. Callaway]

I will post a side view of the marker when I get back home.

I haven't been home and had time to cut some more tails yet, but I have picked up a few sticks of 1/2" poplar....

And in other news, I ordered Rob Cosman's dove tail Degree from woodcraft , along with his Rough To Ready DVD... just for kicks.

I also ordered James Krenov's A Cabinet Makers Notebook and The Impractical Cabinetmaker , along with a book and DVD set called Basic Box Making by Doug Stowe. Popular Woodworking's bookstore is having a bit of a sale right now.... and I got a small back pay check from work..... So time to grow the library a little bit.

Look for another set of dovetails from me in a few days. When I get the Dovetail degree set in I will give a full review.

[David Keller NC]

John - One comment on the dovetail practice. When you see Rob put his pins and tails together, there's a bit of a "cheat" going on. Not that he's being dishonest or isn't a superb dovetail artisan (kind of like the ring of that last label), but the fit of his pins and tails is substantially aided by the combination of woods that he's using.

Specifically, he's using a hardwood like mahogany or walnut, and a very soft wood like EWP (eastern white pine) and in one video, aspen.

What happens is that he just needs to get the P&T cuts pretty close, but the compressibility of the EWP or aspen does the rest - the walls of the socket on the harder wood compresses the softer wood, yielding a perfect fit unless the cut was waayyy off.

Technically, this isn't a "cheat", since the usual situation is a hardwood drawer front and a softwood drawer side.

I would recommend practicing with a similar combination. Not only does it likely yield a "gloat" set of pins and tails, but it also gives you a very good feel for what you will need to do in a common cabinetmaking situation.

Poplar isn't too bad of a choice for the "hardwood" section, but you might consider picking up a board of mahogany or perhaps cherry from your local Woodcraft or lumber yard. At first glance, it might seem ridiculous to use south american mahogany as practice wood at $12 a b.f., but when you actually figure out the total outlay, it's pretty small - a 6' long, 4" wide piece of 4/4 mahogany will come out at $24 (2 b.f.), you can get at least 18 practice pieces out of it if you make them 4" long. This wood, btw, is what Ian Kirby recommends for beginners to practice with. The specific reason is that its not too hard, not too soft, the end grain will not crumble when chopped or pared, and it doesn't have pronounced early/late grain hardness variations the way oak and ash do.

[Michael Peet]

I agree with David's suggestion about using a combination hardwood / softwood. In fact I am fortunate in that my local lumber yard sells scraps of mahogany, walnut, oak, etc for just a few bucks apiece.

I usually rip a length each of hardwood and softwood the same width, cut and assemble the joint, then chop off and reuse the two boards again. This way you can get a practice joint out of every couple inches of stock.

I use poplar as the "soft" wood.

Mike

[John A. Callaway]

David, that is a interesting little bit of info about his technique. As soon as the videos arrive I will certainly check that out.

I got poplar because everyone on here said it was easier to learn on that pine. I am hoping to at least cut a set or two tomorrow. I have been gone from the house for almost three days now.

I was in Jacksonville today, but the bride came down here and kept me company so I didnt get a chance to run over to woodcraft.

I was looking at some of the lumber websites I have bookmarked, and ebay... There are some good deals ( 10 - 25 bucks ! ) on cutoff boxes and assortments sold by the bulk pound "grab bag" style box... maybe I will order a couple of those and see what I get.

I really need to go ahead and order the other veritas DT saw. I have the 14 TPI saw, so maybe next pay day I will go ahead and pick up the other two.


I will keep you guys updated.

[John Coloccia]

For what it's worth, I have all 3 saws, but the only one I use for dovetails is the 14 tpi. I use the crosscut for cutting pen blanks and sometimes for shoulders. The 20TPI is nice, but I just don't use it that much. If I let the saw do the work, the 14 works for me, even in thin stock.

[John A. Callaway]

I sent them an email showing them the defect. These people are AMAZING. They are going to ship me another one free of charge, and all I have to do is send the defective one back.

I am very happy with my wheel marking gauge, saw and markers, and I will, like most of you, be a very happy customer of theirs for many years to come.

Thanks Lee Valley. Customer service like this is not the norm these days.
:):):)

[John A. Callaway]

I sent them an email showing them the defect. These people are AMAZING. They are going to ship me another one free of charge, and all I have to do is send the defective one back.

I am very happy with my wheel marking gauge, saw and markers, and I will, like most of you, be a very happy customer of theirs for many years to come.

Thanks Lee Valley. Customer service like this is not the norm these days.

[Jim Koepke]

Gee, now I feel a lot better. Pine has been my primary wood due to cost. Making dovetails in pine has been a challenge.

From reading what others have stated about pine, it looks like it is not my fault.

Though, I am starting to get some good results when my memory of where to cut stays on the right side of the lines.

jim

[David Keller NC]

I actually prefer a EWP in combination with a hardwood (usually S.A. Mahogany) as practice. Though I can cut dovetails with high confidence of success after switching over to handcut totally from router cut a few years ago, additional practice is never a bad thing - even virtuoso musicians still practice, so I figure that woodworkers should be no exception.

Anyway, the reason I use EWP as the softwood is that I've been able to take care of the primary disadvantage by a combination of technique and tools. Specifically, EWP end grain will crumble very easily if undergoes a lot of force from mallet chopping to remove the waste, and will also crumble readily if it's pared with an otherwise sharp but high cutting angle chisel.

I keep a set of chisels specifically for paring Eastern White Pine that are ground at a 20 degree bevel angle with about a 3 degree secondary bevel. These pare EWP incredibly well, but the edge will collapse or shatter if chopping or paring a hardwood is attempted. This set is, of course, an inexpensive one, and I don't keep a wood-specific set just for practice. Almost all of the period pieces I make use EWP as a secondary wood.

[John A. Callaway]

So I got the videos in yesterday... I watched the first one, Hand Cut Dovetails , and Mastering the Dovetail Saw.

The first video was informative, but I think the book will certainly play a more credible role at the workbench. I have yet to view the advanced video.

The Dovetail saw video, however, was a BIG step in the right direction for me. I watched the DVD and then went and practiced what I learned.

I can start the saw much easier now, and I can cut a thinner kerf, and I am cutting more perpendicular to 90 degrees .

I didnt cut a set of tails last night, but I made a BUNCH of practice cuts with my saw, and I got pretty controlled and really quick. I can split a line, cut to one side of the line, or the other side.... Great video :cool:

Still got to watch the advanced dovetail DVD and the rough to ready DVD.

I will keep you guys updated. The railroad is keeping me very , very busy.

[gary Zimmel]

Won't be long and you will be cranking out perfect hand cuts with tiny pins John...

Congrats on getting the DVD's. They seem to be helping already.
A little help goes a long way.
Keep your shop copy book on the bench. It will save you a bunch of running back and forth from your TV and your workbench...

Looking forward to seeing the progress unfold.

[John A. Callaway]

okay...got back to the bench today, FINALLY. Work is eating my soul at the moment :cool:

Any way. Watched the whole dovetail degree series. I hope no one expected me to be able to watch those videos once and read through the shop guide and poof! museum quality dovetails made in savannah! didn't work that way.

Did I improve? Was the DVDs and Book worth it? YES, and YES.

Clearly though, I am still traveling this DT road , and I will be for a while...

It took me two sets just to get the feel of things the Rob Cosman way...and that is fine. This is one joint you dont want to not cut for six or eight months and then go to work on a very expensive piece of lumber. A little warm up clears your head and gets you into the right posture and helps you remember the process.

So , 1/2" poplar today. 4 sets. I need a fret saw, my coping saw blade is too big. My chisels arent the best, but I am making them work for now.

The fourth set finally is something that shows I am getting better, at least , I am telling myself that anyway:cool:

Also, got my replacement DT marker in from Lee Valley, already sent the other back. Great folks them Canuks, AYE !! :D

Enough of my stupidity I guess... on to the pics.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2118.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2112.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2119.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2125.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2124.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2123.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2122.jpg

Some one said I should glue all of these up and then take my block plane to them and clean them up, but I figure I am more concerned with just getting a clean tight fit for now, and my little LN bronze plane is kinda hard to push over these long tails and pins....

[Mark Stutz]

John,
When I finally get my shop up and running after this 18 month ordeal, I'm hoping to do the "one dovetail a night" routine to get back into the swing of things. I would also suggest gluing set #9 and trimming it upwith a plane. You will be surprised at how much better they look than you think. The glue will swell the fibers a bit and I think the plane "spreads" the wood just a fraction as well. The shadow line caused by the extra length also makes them appear rougher than they usually are. You can also get some practice at repair and filling the gaps.

Mark

[Michael Peet]

John, those are really coming along nicely.

Mike

[John A. Callaway]

I watched the videos again.... will probably watch them several more times. One thing I noticed, and I cant remedy right now is creating perfectly flat stock. These 1/2" pieces have a slight cup to them and looking at a few of my joints, the cup is showing the middle if the joint is not sitting flush.


uuuhhh... I need to buy me a smoother soon.

1 st year wedding anniversary coming up. Wife want another Louis Vuitton Bag. can't fuss though, I had my shopping spree a few weeks ago.

[Jim Koepke]

I watched the videos again.... will probably watch them several more times. One thing I noticed, and I cant remedy right now is creating perfectly flat stock. These 1/2" pieces have a slight cup to them and looking at a few of my joints, the cup is showing the middle if the joint is not sitting flush.

uuuhhh... I need to buy me a smoother soon.

I have wondered about marking from piece to piece instead of using a marking gauge.

How would someone do dovetails on a coopered edge?

Of course, square stock is best, but sometimes one has to work with what they have.

jim

[John A. Callaway]

hadn't thought to try that yet.... one of the books I have shows how to cut DTs along a angled edge , but not when one board is slightly cupped and the other isn't. I picked a small piece of oak today at lowe's ... 1/2 x 3" may do a set with that a piece of poplar...

But first, I got a bottle of Danish oil too, gonna treat my bench ....well gonna do a test area on the bottom of the top and see if I like it before I do the whole thing.

[Floyd Mah]

Don't use pine for practicing dovetail cutting. The soft parts are too soft and crumble when you apply pressure. The darker, tough parts are too hard relative to the soft parts and force you to apply too much pressure which causes the crumbling when you get into the soft part nearby. The more even the grain, the better. I've used redwood because it's easy to prepare for practice boards and the grain is relatively even, so despite being soft, I don't have the tools jumping between hard and soft parts. Also it is relatively easy to practice paring when the parts don't fit on the first pass. As for fitting, I've found the best technique once you've are getting close is to target the edges that won't show in the final assembly. That results in a good appearing joint and only you will remember the hassle in getting it to fit. Use a pencil to mark those areas. Good luck.

[Rick Erickson]

I agree - I would ditch the pine. Go with poplar or some similar medium density wood. Pine (IMO) is too soft to practice on. Your tools must be super sharp or the pine will crush. Also, make sure your boards are flat and square. If not, you will be fighting them all the way.

[Rick Erickson]

uuuhhh... I need to buy me a smoother soon.


And so it begins. Welcome to the club. Let us know when you start having dreams at night of the bronze No. 4. That way we will know what stage you are in.

[John A. Callaway]

I have gotten poplar, The last few sets are poplar. I think the results are better with that. Aside from a few of the pieces have a slight cup to them, I am improving.

And yes, that bronze Number 4 from LN is already a dream problem. My wife told me I could buy the Calendar they sell .... but no more tools for a month or so because as she says " the anniversary is my turn " .... so for now, cupped poplar and some sticks of oak will have to do.

But my wishlist at Lee valley is quite extensive, as well as my handwritten list for LN , Tools for working wood, Japan woodworker... and on and on..... Blah!

[Floyd Mah]

It appears to me that you are using a chisel to cut along the line marked with the marking gauge. That's why you have some unevenness and some chipping. Using the chisel you face three problems:

1. The chisel's width is not the same as the length of the cut. That means you have to make two cuts or more to waste the wood next to the line. This produces uneven lines.

2. Setting the chisel in the marked line and chopping forces the chisel which is a wedge to crush wood fibers on either side of the line.

3. There is a slight risk of wood on the good side of the line being lifted or fracturing. This creates the chipping.

Having said all that, the solution is simple. Take a sharp blade or Exacto knife, preferably with a single bevel, and carefully cut on the marked line. Use a steel straight edge so that all the dovetails are lined up. This prevents the unevenness that is most apparent when you are done. Make the cut at least 2 mm deep. That is your finished line. I then take a sharp chisel and place it about 2 mm away from the cut line, on the waste end, with the bevel facing the waste end. When you strike the chisel, the bevel will shove the chisel towards the cut line and lever the chip upwards. When you remove the chip, you will have a clean razor edge at the bottom of the dovetail socket. Do both sides of the board. At this point, I usually use a coping saw or bandsaw (if it happens to have a narrow blade installed) and cut away the rest of the socket that is waste. Chopping with a chisel is an alternative. Then I mount the board upright and pare the bottom of the socket with a chisel. You can use the razor cut edge as a reference or clamp another piece of wood across the marked line as a 90 degree reference. Do this from both sides. The stuff in between the razor cuts generally doesn't offer any stability to the glue joint since it is end-grain, so your main goal is to get it level or slightly lower so that it doesn't bridge up your joint. I use these carving tools (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=16%2E102%2E31&dept_id=12683) from Japan Woodworker to trim the socket. It's the best bargain in their store.

Anyway, try this technique. You'll feel like a joint making machine after you've made just one joint. (Reminds me of the time that I followed a link to youtube to view a video on joint-making. There were other related videos. One had a well-dressed European man demonstrating a machine. There wasn't a single piece of wood or woodworking tool in sight. I finally figured out that the man was speaking Dutch and it was different type of joint-making).

[John A. Callaway]

I will definitely try that . Thanks for the tip.

About those carving tools. WOW !!! I have their catalog, and I must have missed that. I am really wanting those nice detail chisels from LV, and the set of six is almost 200 bucks. The ones you showed me look similar, and for 23 dollars, you have my curiosity peaked.

You said you seem happy with them, ... is there anything you dont like about them? How thick are the blades, and are they durable? It says they have a of RC62 ...

[Floyd Mah]

At first glance, they seem to be quite ordinary. But they have two things going for them.

They are extremely cheap, about $6 each. They're so cheap you can throw them away instead of sharpening them. JWW has more than what's in the set. All different sizes. They are small, less than 6 inches in length, but I find them comfortable.

Their best quality is that they are extremely sharp. Actually sharper than surgical tools. I've drawn blood just by brushing my finger against the edge.

While you are buying stuff from JWW, get this saw (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=18%2E150%2E0&dept_id=13085) for your dovetail work. I have a LN Independence Dovetail saw (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=DS) that cost (at the time) six times more. I've never used it for dovetail work because the JWW saw is so good. You can make your cuts with 2 careful strokes. You will overshoot with 3 strokes. It's a wonderful saw.

[rob cosman]

John if you email me privately I will give you some help. You can check the student page on my site, http://www.robcosman.com//student_gallery.htm , I have walked a few thru this process. rob@robcosman.com
cheers
Rob

[Keith E Byrd]

Nice bench - you are gonna enjoy that!
Where are the tail pics?

[Rick Erickson]

John if you email me privately I will give you some help. You can check the student page on my site, http://www.robcosman.com//student_gallery.htm , I have walked a few thru this process. rob@robcosman.com
cheers
Rob

John, I wouldn't pass that offer up.

[John A. Callaway]

there will be no Japanese style saw for me right now. I like the one I have.

ROB COSMAN !!!!! :D

thanks for dropping in on my little thread here.

I will take you up on that. But I have only had one good session at the bench since I watched the series. Let me get two or three more sessions using your methods to make sure I really let it all sink in... then I will try and see where the problem areas are for me, and come looking for you to diagnose and offer solutions based on my interpretation of your technique.

I will continue on for a few weeks watching the video and then cutting a few sets. I am trying to get really comfy with my saw, and with eliminating all of the careless errors from just not using my brain when I am looking down at a set of boards.

Unfortunately with my work schedule, I can't get in there every night to practice. What takes some people a few nights of trying sometimes takes a few weeks.

[Jerry Olexa]

Beautiful, sturdy bench!!! You had quite a day!!! Enjoy...

[John A. Callaway]

Finally got around to cutting a few more sets tonight. Work has finally slowed down enough to where I had several hours today and this evening to get a few things done. I got to use my new table saw :D ( AWESOME SAW , BTW ) to rip down some boards a buddy gave me at work. They are either elm or cherry.?. I think elm, but either way they were a little to wide and still had the band saw rip on both edges. so I ripped them down to match the width of the two sticks of wood I got at woodcraft in Jacksonville a few weeks ago... a piece of walnut and a piece of purple heart. I wanted to cut some sets with a bit of contrast ...

Before I got started I watched Rob Cosman's video again just to give myself a little refresher and to keep me from making stupid mistakes.

I think I am finally improving a bit. I had the first set split on me, but I see why, and I am still having a little trouble with the saw bouncing around on me when I start. It is a great saw, but I wonder if the backer plate over the blade could benefit from being a little heavier. I am working through it though, and tonight I was very happy with my results. Laying these things out with a ruler is really a aggravation though.

I will be getting my hands on a couple of sets of dividers this payday, as well as a fret saw and a marking knife .... maybe ( cash permitting ) a nice set of detail chisels , along with a true block plane. The little LN 103 is really nice and all, but I need a adjustable mouth low angle plane. Hopefully , the payday two weeks out will afford me the extra cash for a LN # 3 smoother, in bronze. I have been working my butt off to get the extra money to start getting a good inventory of essential tools, and it is starting to pay off. :cool:

the new saw!

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2136.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2137.jpg

the new supply of practice wood

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2139.jpg

set number 10

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2142.jpg

chamfered the edges a little too much

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2145.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2155.jpg

[John A. Callaway]

set number 10 continued , nasty little split.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2166.jpg

set number 11

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2158.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2163.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2165.jpg

this joint is so tight that I couldnt pll it apart if I wanted too without breaking some of the pins or tails off. Is that good or bad?

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2169.jpg

all of my practice sets so far...

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2172.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2177.jpg

[Tony Shea]

Keep on a trucking. Starting to look good man. As to answer the question about fit, it shouldn't be that tight IMO. If it is that tight and you add glue, the moisture of the glue may prevent you from ever getting the peices together again due to expansion. Not only that, if you did get them together most of the glue would probably be scraped off the surfaces. You want to get a good friction fit but you want to be able to take them apart and put them back together.

A saw trick that was posted here that I didn't understand until I tried it has worked wonders for me to get the saw started. Cover the end grain of the wood with pencil. Go along the end grain with the saw and try to take the pencil mark off without cutting into the wood. Damn near impossible but it teaches you the right amount of pressure required to get a good starting saw kerf. It's actually minus pressure, you're almost pulling up on the saw to counter act the weight of the saw. An extremely light touch is the key. Since I learned the right touch to get started I am now in a different class of skill when cutting with the dovetail saw.

[Floyd Mah]

Hi John. You are making good progress. It appears to me that you are over-cutting the sides of the sockets somewhat. Your cuts are crossing the marked line at the bottom of the sockets. This may be the saw is too sharp and you are just slicing thru everything, or the saw is too dull and you are chopping the line because you have trouble controlling the saw. If the saw is sharp, I would suggest elevating the work so that you have a better look at the target line as you approach it. I find that I most often cut past the line because I didn't get a good look at it. Only the finish side of the board needs to be right on the line. If your saw is dull and you can't control the saw well, I would suggest getting the Japanese saw that I mentioned before.

The reason I mention the Japanese saw again is that you would operate it in a different manner than the traditional saw. It's like the difference between shooting a pistol and a rifle. With a pistol, your sight radius, the distance between the front sight and the rear sight is only about 6 to 8 inches, about the same distance between your workpiece and your gripping hand on the saw. That means that any movement of the hand laterally or even a change in your grip can change the angle that you push the saw through. Also, the resistance to cutting created by the wood grain, wood density and saw sharpness and kerf thickness can be magnify any misdirection easily. Just dip the saw slightly and you've cut an extra divot across the guide line. Contrast that to a Japanese saw which can have a handle up to a foot long, where your cut on the workpiece may be up to 14 inches from your gripping hand. This is like shooting a rifle, where the longer sight radius assists your aim and keeps you on target. You can create a long, steady stroke because you are pulling into your center of gravity as compared to a traditional saw where you are pushing away from your center. Because you are pulling the saw, you are creating more of a scraping action with the teeth than trying to force the saw through the wood so it's more controlled.

Anyway, I think it is easier for novices like you and me to learn this technique with the saw I referenced in a previous post. Particularly if you are taking as much effort as I see you are to perfecting dovetailing, I think it's worth the $40 or so to try this saw.

The other issue is that I don't plan to make dovetails for a living, but I enjoy making them. I don't enjoy having them coming out ill-fitting and then spending a lot of time trying to get them to fit. I don't have the luxury of spending a lot of time learning to handle the saw to freehand the cuts. So, what I have done is make guide blocks out of any handy wood blocks to assist me in keeping the saw at the right angle, Just cut a dado on a block to fit the thickness of your workpiece and use your miter saw to cut the needed angle guides to use with your dovetail saw. Consider your apprenticeship over now that you've made a dozen joints. Use the time you gain by improving your artistry. After all, it's better to finish the joint in a reasonable time and having it look good than to have a not-so-good-looking joint and get satisfaction that it took you more than 30 minutes to finish that one corner of your box or drawer (just for the fitting). It comes down to weighing the balance between the journey and the goal.

[John A. Callaway]

well , for the most part.... I think it is more about the journey than the goal. If you take the right path, you get to the right place in the end. And, to put it more real world.... I like cutting dovetails. plain and simple. Until I get more tools, and can start a little project inventory of lumber, these are it for now. Two basics of hand tool working are using a chisel, and using a hand saw. The dovetail saw is on of the more precise tools, as far as saws go. the third would be handplanes, and I will start that down that road soon enough.....

As for sawing down too far past the line, yeah... oops. I should pick me up a desk lamp or something next time I stop off at walmart. I do find it necessary to crouch down a bit to see the line after I get the saw down into the cut. I am getting to where I stop on the line more frequently than stopping past it. this is why practice is so important. I can not stress enough how much of a BIG help Rob Cosman's video's are on dovetails and the dovetail saw. I however couldnt just watch them once and be the master he is. But I take his technique to heart, and his results, and that of hundreds of his students .... the method works. I just need to perfect it with my own hands and eyes.

One of the things he talks about in his dovetail saw video is to acquire a saw, and learn it inside and out before trying out a different saw, like going form western to japanese saws. or going from a gents grip to a pistol grip. You will only confuse your technique and make learning the process that much more difficult. And while I have had the chance to use a pull saw, I find that I like the grips and the push style better , but that is just my preference. As i mentioned earlier, I do think the veritas saw could have a tad bit heavier back plate over the blade.... but I used it a while back practicing in pine the way rob shows in some of his skill building exercises and I could get it started with great results. I just need to stop waiting a month in between sessions at the bench... but I got to work and spend time with the bride ... and sometimes I am only home twelve hours before I leave for three days again.:mad: I still want to pick up the other DT saw veritas makes with the 20 TPI ....

But tell me, who doesn't have a Lee Valley Veritas wishlist a foot long? :D

I am gonna go at it again today and cut another set or two.

[Jim Barrett]

John,
I don't have any trouble starting my cuts...I use a very light touch. As Rob C says take about 80% of the weight off your saw when you start the cut. Once you start it then let the saw do the work. You should be guiding the saw in the kerf not forcing it at all...remember to keep your wrist, elbow and shoulder all in one plane.
I had a dickens of a time bruising my scribe line. Try this...take a piece of your wood and scribe a line 1/8" away from the edge. Now put your chisel in that line and strike it with your mallet. It will most likely bruise the line...so move a bit away from that line and sneak up on the scribed line. Once you finish flip the piece of wood over and try it from that side as well...just keep practicing and easy on that saw...let it do the work for you!

Best regards,

Jim

[John A. Callaway]

well.... I watched the dovetail saw video again today, just to help getting the saw started. A little refresher goes a long way...I can get the saw started good now... until I cant practice for a month and lose the "feel " again...

But today's problem. The word of the day. " Perpendicular " !

You can see the gaps in the to different joints. One of them ended up splitting... the other has a visible wedge of an opening.

I did however remember that I had a desk lamp upstairs not being used in the wife's sewing room. Took it. Helped ALOT !!

way easier to see my marking gauge line and stop at it.

So, the rest of the day, time permitting ... will be working on sawing a line perpendicular to the edge of the board and following the line so I get a nice even tail shape on both sides of the board.

You get one thing right and another thing wants to put up a fight. ... but really this is probably the hardest part of cutting a set of tails. Getting a saw cut to saw cut joint to fit perfectly.

Practice I will.

set twelve was thin oak and elm
set thirteen was thin poplar and elm.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2210.jpg

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http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2199.jpg

[Rick Erickson]

Looking good John. Pretty brave using Purple Heart. That may be counterproductive though. Don't make it so difficult on yourself. Keep working on it. I bet joint 20 will be close to perfect.

[Floyd Mah]

I can't help but notice that the boards used for your efforts #12 and #13 seemed to be different widths (despite the split in #13). If the pair of boards start out mismatched, you will end up with problems matching the pins and tails unless you consistently start with the same reference edge. Also, do you have a small machinist's square, about a 2" blade? It would be very helpful to for verifying that your cuts are perpendicular.

Although I realize that it is somewhat against the idea of dovetailing entirely by hand tools as a purist to entertain the use of sawing guides, as I suggested earlier today, most woodworkers use a dovetail or bevel gauge to lay out the tails and pins at some point in the construction of a dovetail joint. I would suggest that using a 3-dimensional guide at least to orient your saw prior to making the initial cut might be in the same spirit, at least to develop some muscle memory until you become a master. Is it much different to sight along your saw blade to line it up with your window edge during the cut than to place a right angle block on the work edge to ensure that the saw blade is starting out perpendicular to the edge? I find the process of out-smarting the physical pitfalls that the saw and wood place before you as interesting as replicating the technique of others.

[John A. Callaway]

the overhang you see on set 13 is because of both the pin and the tail not being smooth inside. At the very most one was less than a 1/64" wider than the other. And all the pieces were ran through the TS with the fence set at the place for all of the elm, oak, walnut and purple heart.

I dont think I wanna go with a saw guide. I appreciate the challenge of learning it free hand. You do offer up great advice though Floyd. I thank you for your tips and I have tried many of the things you have suggested. I really do appreciate the input.

I like the look of the purple heart, and as hard as it is, I got the best results out of it. Maybe because it is so hard it wont let you gouge or splinter or blowout any part of it unless you try really hard.

I have done a google sketchup of a tool cabinet to fit under the workbench on the stretchers .... I am thinking purple heart drawer fronts with maybe a walnut cabinet. Dunno about the walnut with it though. I will find a good match for the purple heart though. I love the way it looks. Maybe mahogany .... or even a lighter wood like maple.

[John A. Callaway]

set number 14.

I gotta say.

I think I am starting to get it down :cool:

I will let the pics tell the tale, except two things. I took a pic of the raw boards so you could see they are the same height.

Also, one edge has a slight bevel. you will see with the square. Doesnt affect this very fine joint.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2213.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2215.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2217.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2220.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2222.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2223.jpg

[Floyd Mah]

Just saw the last set of dovetails. Looks really good. I was looking for my dovetail book, written by Ian Kirby. It's a really good book, but he suggests, as you seem to have done, making the pins and tails slightly recessed from the surface of the boards. The reason is that when you glue up the joint and finish it by planing, you don't lose any length to your box sides. If, on the other hand, you had the pins and tails slightly proud of the sides, when you have trimmed the pins and tails, your box (or drawer) is now slightly smaller than you had intended. You'll see what I mean when you complete a box and begin to put the finishing touches on the joint with a hand plane. Anyway, good work.

I meant the use of the square (not plane) to check the angle of the cuts, so that when you are preparing to fit the joint, you can pare the sides that are not vertical. The small square (2 or 3" blade) helps you measure the angles, without having to balance a much larger square.

I found that when you are making the final fit, it helps to use a pencil to mark the edges which will be hidden in the assembled joint. If the joint is a tight fit, in the situation where you might trim either of two faces, you would want to alter the edge which wouldn't show, especially if you make a mistake.

I found the use of a low angle block plane or a sharp #3 Stanley was ideal for trimming the assembled joint.

[John A. Callaway]

thanks...yes I used the square to check every cut after the saw....but for some reason that one stick of elm is a little ' raw ' on one edge....

I think cutting them proud is just more work. I try to set my gauge for dead on thickness or a hair thinner.

smoother is coming. gimme a few weeks:rolleyes: