Best Saw for Straight Accurate Cuts?

[James Farrow]

O.K. Me again.

Well the manual mitre saw I was considering is not a good choice. I checked it out at CT and it was really flimsy and looked cheaply made. So I have to find an alternative.

First, this is what I need it for. To make straight accurate cuts.
And lots of them, To cut small squares, rectangles, etc...

So, being at a complete loss as to what kind of saw is best, I would like your opinions on what kind of benchtop saw I should look at.

Compound Mitre Saw?
Table Saw?
Circular Saw?
or ???

Thanks,

James :)

[Chris Padilla]

James,

What is your budget and can you provide more details on what you are doing? Will you be getting deeply into ww'ing or is this a passing fancy or do you just want to 'get by' for right now?

For most of us here in the US, the table saw is often the center of the wood shop but as I alluded to above, it really depends on YOU and what YOU need. Help us out with a few more details and we'll be only too happy to help you spend your money! ;)

:D

[James Farrow]

Hi!

I want to cut numerous small squares (say 1" to 2" square of varying thicknesses for example), rectangles, etc... This is for building up blanks for turning segmented bowls, vases, boxes, etc... So the number of squares, rectangles, etc... might number in the hundreds.

And of course they have to be cut straight and accurate.

I am hoping for a benchtop as the work will be intricate and I want to be able to get close to it.

Hope this makes sense.

James :)

[Donnie Raines]

Table saw with a cross cut sled would get my vote. Straight, easy and very safe.

[John Miliunas]

James, this is completely personal opinion but, "accurate" and "benchtop" are typically not used in the same sentence. A tablesaw is probably the most repeatable in accuracy and have it matched up with some type of sled for angle accuracy and safety. I use a Jointech Smart Miter on my cabinet saw and it's accurate, repeatable AND safe. This may be a bit overkill for what you're trying to accomplish, unless if your work extends beyond the spinny thing. :cool:

[Chris Padilla]

James,

If you want something 'benchtop' I am thinking a power miter saw might be something for you to investigate. I hesitate a little bit suggesting this because of the size of pieces you are looking. With some forethought (clamps/jigs), you can safely and accurately cut 1" squares on a powered miter saw and do lots of them.

I would go to my local h/w store or Home Depot/Lowes (borgs) and start browsing around at the myriad of power tools they have and see if you start getting ideas about what you want.

While I agree with John (and boy, that really steams me, too! ;) ) that a benchtop table saw isn't very solid/accurate, a powered or compound miter saw is and might work for you.

If you go for a bigger (contractor or cabinet) table saw, then that coupled with a nice miter fence/sled (Incra, Jointech, etc.) would be very nice. However, that is A LOT more money than a compound miter saw and definately won't work on a bench.

[James Farrow]

Thanks for the replies.

Well I said benchtop for two reasons. I want to get close to the work and I also don't have a lot of room for a large saw.

And, can I cut small intricate pieces on a large saw?

Seems like overkill to me. Like using a sledge hammer to nail tacks.

I guess the perfect saw would be a small scroll saw or small band saw
that did straight, fine, and accurate cuts but I gather they don't exsist.
Or are extremely expensive.

James :)

[James Farrow]

Thanks Chris!

I have been looking at a 10" Delta CMS (Model 225) that looks like it would be
the right thing. They even have some with lasers on them.

Just wasn't sure, so that's why I figured I would ask.

James :)

[Roger Fitzsimonds]

James

Check out the bt3100 Ryobi saw. It comes with a sliding table and is very accurate. I know a guy that uses his for segment cutting exclusivly. he had a unisaw for other work. It isnt abench top but it does have a small foot print.

just my dos centavos

Roger

[Tom LaRussa]

I have been looking at a 10" Delta CMS (Model 225) that looks like it would be
the right thing. They even have some with lasers on them.

James,

The laser is a nice gimick, but it's no help in making the kind of fine cuts you're talking about -- it simply doesn't have the accuracy, despite what is implied by the word "laser." These are really only useful, IMHO, for framers who need to make repeated cuts to within some number of millimeters of the same length.

Also, holding pieces as small as you're contemplating cutting on a power miter saw is liable to be difficult at best, and extremely dangerous at worst.

I would recommend what I use, which is a Nobex Champion (hand) Miter Saw. I've had mine for about seven years now and just love the quality and precison of the cuts it gives me.

This is not some flimsy piece of junk. It's a very precise saw/mechanism, made in Sweden, and sells for $139.99. It comes stock with an 18 tooth-per-inch blade, but if you want the smoothest cut possible buy a 32 tpi blade as well for another $14.99.

Here's a link to it at Highland Hardware:

http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=877

I'm posting a pic below.

HTH,

Tom

p.s. Chris and John are great guys, but they think that anything weighing less than 500 pounds and/or drawing less than 20 amps is not really a tool. :eek: ;)

[John Miliunas]

p.s. Chris and John are great guys, but they think that anything weighing less than 500 pounds and/or drawing less than 20 amps is not really a tool. :eek: ;)

Hey, watch-it, there Tom! I resemble that remark! :D :cool:

[Chris Padilla]

<br>
p.s. Chris and John are great guys, but they think that anything weighing less than 500 pounds and/or drawing less than 20 amps is not really a tool. :eek: ;)Hey, watch-it, there Tom! I resemble that remark! :D :cool:

BTW, I've been posting more in the Neander section! :eek:
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Gary Max]

Hey John---where is the gas tank at on Tom's saw??????

Cutting small on a table saw works.---use a good blade and set the height of the blade to match your stock. If you stay away from the saws with big wings you can get one with a small foot print.

[nic obie]

James,

Believe or not, in your case I think I'd go with the Ryobi BT3000 table saw over a powered mitre saw. The Ryobi is small and relatively cheap. Besides, you will need a table saw anyway in order to rip the wood down to appropriate size before crosscutting into squares.

[John Miliunas]

Hey John---where is the gas tank at on Tom's saw??????

Cutting small on a table saw works.---use a good blade and set the height of the blade to match your stock. If you stay away from the saws with big wings you can get one with a small foot print.

Not sure 'bout the gas tank, Gary, but I'm thinkin' there might be a battery or two underneath that cutting deck! :D

And yes, I still think some type of TS setup would be the most accurate and safest. The Ryobi mentioned would probably be a real good option. :) :cool:

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/26712331.jpg

No need to spend any appreciable money. Those old Disston miter box saws go begging for buyers at the old tool auctions. The miter box is 1X3 hard maple laid up on edge with a removable false table. The saw guides came from a flea market but could easily be fabricated from brass or steel stock and solder with hack saw, files and drill press.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70922046.jpg

[James Farrow]

Thanks for all the responses!

I will check out those Ryobi ones. Don't kniw if they are available in
Canada or not though.

James :)

[Keith Christopher]

You're gonna want to rip the pieces to some final width. The table saw (perhaps a small contractors on (well tuned and squared) with a good mitre gauge will allow you to cut these. But I worry you are looking for something to turn these out quickly and square and that worries me. I tested cuts on my osborne mitre gauge for repeatability and accuracy, well I have to agree with NA from NYW I have not fired up my miter saw since I got this miter gauge. In then end it's a space/comfort level. I still see you needing to clean up the edged however.

[Maurice Ungaro]

...and then there's the band saw option!!!!

Maurice

[Chris Padilla]

Maurice,

I thought about mentioning the BS but unless you get one with a carbide blade, I don't think you'll get as clean a cut on it. Sure, a quick swipe or two with a nice sharp plane would do wonders but.............. :o

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I can tell you from experience, you don't want to cut small 1" squares on a miter saw. If they get caught in the wrong place they can go flying. I'd get a table saw involved and a crosscut sled for repeatability. Virtually any TS will do. I would stay away from the DIY'ers like Ridgid and Ryobi though.

If you want accuracy and power, you'll need a good belt drive saw with a great fence. Grizzly's GO444Z for example...it's only a few dollars more than a jobsite saw and it will last you a long time.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G0444Z

[Bob Smalser]

Fellas....I been doing this for a long time and I wouldn't be caught dead cutting 1" squares on a TS....sled or no sled.

Bandsaw or hand miter box for me, thanks.

One thing stands out about these forums in the 18mo or so I been playing with them...and not just this forum....is the remarkable number of serious accidents.

[Frank Pellow]

James,


I would recommend what I use, which is a Nobex Champion (hand) Miter Saw. I've had mine for about seven years now and just love the quality and precison of the cuts it gives me.



I have the same saw and I can also recommend it. In Canada, it is available from Lee Valley and here is a link: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=32926&category=1,42884,43836&ccurrency=1&SID= (note that the price is in Canadian $).

[James Farrow]

Thanks!

Yeah, I think that's my best, and safest, choice. Spent a while checking out mitre saws, table saws, etc... and they seem like to big a tool for what I want.

Thanks for the link. Saves me UPS, or FEDEX, charges, duties, etc...

James :)

[Lawrence See]

James, Try checking the FSK/E saw at Proxxon.

Regards, Larry

[Dave Wright #2]

I've done similar cuts when building architectural models. We use basswood or MDF to make building parts at larger scales or simplified building masses at smaller scales. After trying different approaches we settled on the band saw for angled or stopped cuts and the table saw for right angle cuts. The table saw cuts more smoothly and accurately, which saves cleanup time later on.

Teeny cuts at the table saw can be made safely using a cutoff box. Clamp a stop to the cutoff box fence at the desired cut dimension. Hold the workpiece tight to both the fence and stop using a push stick to keep your hands well away from the blade. Slide the box gently past the blade. Setup time is very quick with practice and if you use a spring clamp (instead of screw clamp) to hold the stop in place.

I use my large cutoff box for this work, but would prefer a small one dedicated to this purpose if doing a whole lot of it. It is important to sequence your cuts such that the wood distance cut by the blade is less than the wood distance resting against the cutoff box fence. This improves results and is important from a safety standpoint.

Regards,

Dave

[Bob Smalser]

Teeny cuts at the table saw can be made safely using a cutoff box...

How do you keep a carbide tooth from grabbing an offcut and flinging it back at your face?

[Chris Padilla]

If the offcut isn't captive, it shouldn't get tossed. I think it would be easy enough to rig up a stop that once the wood hits it, can then be flipped up out of the way thus not keep the offcut captive. Perhaps the devil is in the details here.

[Steven Wilson]

James,

I would use a tablesaw of some sort with a well designed cutoff sled. You want to clamp the wood down and then push through the blade. As for saw, you can use any contractor or cabinet saw although the kerf tends to be a bit wide. You might be able to find an old 6"-8" hobby saw that were fairly popular in the 50's that would make a good base for a small stock cut off saw. If you're looking at cutting smaller pieces (say 5/16" thick or thinner) then the Proxxon saw might be the ticket http://www.minicrafttools.com/37006.html .

[Bob Smalser]

The TS is a ripping machine, not a crosscutting machine. Even in the bad old days before chop boxes, we always had a big radial arm saw (or two) set up for that.

Sleds or no sleds, push sticks (especially the flimsy, squirrelly little notched ones I've seen Norm use on TV), crosscutting on the TS is a questionable practice if you do enuf of it to have the Probabilities and Statistics Monster catch up to your butt.

My only injury ever in a shop was 3 decades ago in a commercial yard where me and my partner had finished ripping heavy, 4X5 Live Oak stock on the big 14" Unisaw, had just one crosscut to make and the radial arm saw was tied up for the next half hour.

No sweat, we say....we just grab the miter slide (or maybe the sled used for panels too big for the radial arm....don't remember) and trim 3" off the end...looked around to make sure the boss was nowhere in sight as we were violating a prime shop safety rule...my partner poised to grab the offcut as the me and the saw completed its cut.

Fortunately, I had my left hand out like a catcher's mitt to catch that loose offcut if the blade grabbed it while I pushed with my right.

Sure enuf, my buddy missed, a tooth grabbed that chunk and flung it straight toward my face, my hand deflecting it as it flew across the shop.

Broke two bones in that hand...but we taped it up, kept our mouths shut (until today) and continued working to avoid losing our eyebrows and even more meat from our behinds.

Make sure your only push sticks look like this one that both hold the piece down and inboard towards the fence:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4959362/70035116.jpg

And also make sure your fence is adjusted...not dead parallel to the blade....but one playing card's worth of thickness away from the blade measured at the far end of the fence. Some wiser gents than me even make that a matchbook cover's worth.

That, not running the blade up higher than the work and the better push stick design should mean you can live without an expensive and clumsy aftermarket riving knife on a 10" saw, although I'd sure want one on a more powerful 12" or larger saw.

[Dave Wright #2]

Chris is correct. The offcuts are not trapped between the blade and anything. They just fall away. I'm just passing along a method that has worked for me. I've never had any kickback, thrown workpiece or offcut, microkickback, or other adverse incident. I'm not saying that such events are not possible - just that I don't see how they could happen and that they haven't happened to me. I've cut pieces as small as maybe a 1/2" cube. It is important to securely hold the workpiece against the fence and stop with a pushstick. Depending on the situation this may take some practice and/or finesse.

Oh yea...don't bother trying this unless you're using a contractor's saw or cabinet saw. Benchtop saws vibrate too much and produce imprecise cuts anyway. Might as well step over to the bandsaw.

[Bob Smalser]

The offcut doesn't have to be trapped to catch a sawtooth and fly into your face.

I'm not saying you can't crosscut on the TS....but the sleds are for big stock that won't fit in the chop or radial arm saw, not itty bitty stock more wisely done elsewhere.

Most commercial shops I worked in had safety guidelines or downright hard rules forbidding most TS crosscutting...and there's a good reason:

Do questionable practices long enuf, and the Probability and Statistics Monster is sure to come knocking on your door.

Perfectly clean 1" squares? Bandsaw or miter box shy of the line and take them to the line on the disk sander.

Like I said....my paltry 18mo participating in these forums are most notable for the number of serious accidents out there in the hobbyist ranks.




The TS is a ripping machine, not a crosscutting machine. Even in the bad old days before chop boxes, we always had a big radial arm saw (or two) set up for that.

Sleds or no sleds, push sticks (especially the flimsy, squirrelly little notched ones I've seen Norm use on TV), crosscutting on the TS is a questionable practice if you do enuf of it to have the Probabilities and Statistics Monster catch up to your butt.

My only injury ever in a shop was 3 decades ago in a commercial yard where me and my partner had finished ripping heavy, 4X5 Live Oak stock on the big 14" Unisaw, had just one crosscut to make and the radial arm saw was tied up for the next half hour.

No sweat, we say....we just grab the miter slide (or maybe the sled used for panels too big for the radial arm....don't remember) and trim 3" off the end...looked around to make sure the boss was nowhere in sight as we were violating a prime shop safety rule...my partner poised to grab the offcut as the me and the saw completed its cut.

Fortunately, I had my left hand out like a catcher's mitt to catch that loose offcut if the blade grabbed it while I pushed with my right.

Sure enuf, my buddy missed, a tooth grabbed that chunk and flung it straight toward my face, my hand deflecting it as it flew across the shop.

Broke two bones in that hand...but we taped it up, kept our mouths shut (until today) and continued working to avoid losing our eyebrows and even more meat from our behinds.

Make sure your only push sticks look like this one that both hold the piece down and inboard towards the fence:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4959362/70035116.jpg

And also make sure your fence is adjusted...not dead parallel to the blade....but one playing card's worth of thickness away from the blade measured at the far end of the fence. Some wiser gents than me even make that a matchbook cover's worth.

That, not running the blade up higher than the work and the better push stick design should mean you can live without an expensive and clumsy aftermarket riving knife on a 10" saw, although I'd sure want one on a more powerful 12" or larger saw.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Bob, I believe you are wasting your time. They don't want to hear about any saw without a motor even if it is the safest, most accurate way to do the job at hand. I used to be the same way about power tools, but I've learned over the years that there are places where hand tools are not only nicer and more fun to use, but better suited to the job too.

[Chris Padilla]

I think if 100s of these little squares need to be cut, cutting them by hand isn't going to work for very long, IMO.

Further, Dennis, I disagree that Bob is wasting his time and be careful with broad generalizations like that. We always need counter-viewpoints to a situation...it helps to keep us more well-rounded in our ww'ing experiences. I appreciate Bob's views.

[Keith Christopher]

The key problem I see here as stated in my earlier post is since you're only cutting 1" squares you will be likely to want to cut them quickly. which in power tools == sloppy == injury. early on in my WW I was cutting a piece of purple heart, after cutting off a 4x4x3/4 square, I powered off the saw and as the blade was spinning down, I reached to grab it and my finger hit it and pushed it into the blade it grabbed slammed into the throat plate and zing'd past my head. lesson learned. After thinking about this I am inclined to think band saw or MS as they will lead to less sloppiness over the course of the cuts.

[Bob Smalser]

I think if 100s of these little squares need to be cut, cutting them by hand isn't going to work for very long, IMO.


Doing hundreds of them is all the more reason to stay away from the TS and that Prob-Stat Monster.

I could do hundreds of them easy and safely enuf on bandsaw and disk sander as I described above, as only two edges have to be sanded to the line.

[Ted Harris]

Fellas....I been doing this for a long time and I wouldn't be caught dead cutting 1" squares on a TS....sled or no sled.

I cut squares as small as .300"W x .300"H x 11"L every day, and could go smaller if I wanted too. Personally, I don't see any danger in it the way I do it.

[Bob Smalser]

Yeah, but 11" long is plenty past the blade to get control of that offcut if your professional instinct tells you you need to....you are undoubtedly using a sharp, premium blade...and you've probably more time behind the TS than some newbies have sleeping.

1" long and a relatively inexperienced hobbyist is another "risk management" equation entirely. Perhaps not the original poster, although if he was confident about how to do it safely, he likely wouldn't have asked the question...but for every poster and responder there are several newbie listeners.

Personally, I have no idea what this fella's experience, TS alignment and blade look like and I'll advise accordingly.

My Dad's early advice 4+ decades ago that "machines can't hear you cry" remains good advice.

[Ted Harris]

Yeah, but 11" long is plenty past the blade to get control of that offcut if your professional instinct tells you you need to.

1" long and a relatively inexperienced hobbyist are another "risk management" equation entirely. Perhaps not the original poster, although if he was confident about how to do it safely, he likely wouldn't have asked the question...but for every poster and responder there are several newbie listeners.
Sorry, you are right...I forgot that there are plenty of people here that could easily hurt themselves trying new things, including myself.

[James Farrow]

Thanks for the ton of info guys. It is really appreciated.

Well I went out today and checked out these saws. To me, these (Mitre, Table, Circular, etc...) saws are just way to much blade for a novice to be putting their fingers and hands anywhere near. An experienced person could probably work wonders with these things, but they made me nervous just looking at them. LOL!

So, as I don't have any recent experience with these powerful saws I would prefer to err on the side of caution. Swearing and cursing at a hand mitre saw is free, my fingers, or hands. aren't. LOL!

I think I will try the manual mitre and see how it goes. If it isn't really the tool for the job it won't be wasted. I can always use it for other jobs.

Thanks again for all the info.

James :)

[Steve Jenkins]

James I think that is a wise decision on your part. Don't skimp on the saw. When hand cutting precision parts a good and sharp saw will make all the difference. There have been several posters here that can give you guidence in that direction if they haven't already.

[Fred Chan]

A band saw is the way to go. Not only is it reasonably safe to use to cut such small pieces but a band saw is handy for preparing turning blanks for your lathe.

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks!

Yeah, I think that's my best, and safest, choice. Spent a while checking out mitre saws, table saws, etc... and they seem like to big a tool for what I want.

Thanks for the link. Saves me UPS, or FEDEX, charges, duties, etc...

James :)

James, I think by this response that you decided to get the saw that I pointed to at: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page....currency=1&SID= but it is not totaly clear to me. Did you?

[James Farrow]

Your link says the page has been moved.

Anyway, this one:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=32926&category=1,42884,43836

James :)

[Frank Pellow]

Your link says the page has been moved.

Anyway, this one:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=32926&category=1,42884,43836

James :)

I don't know how that happened.

And, I ask again, is that the saw that you decided to purchase?

[James Farrow]

That's the one. It's at the top of my list. Still thinking about it.

Will see how the finances are next month. Then decide.

Thanks!

James :)

[Carole Valentine]

James, Try checking the FSK/E saw at Proxxon.

Regards, Larry
I wondered about those little table saws. They are made for modelers aren't they? Wonder how accurate they are?