new purchase advice

[Dave Sharpe]

Hi all, I've been on SMC for awhile as a hobby woodworker and have just moseyed over to the engravers forum for a visit. My wife and I have been considering various ways to make our hobbies pay as we consider retirement, and I've got some questions about engraving. I have this vague idea (just starting on the consideration processs) of using an engraver/cutter to make items for sale (ie: picture frames, candle lanterns, etc) I've done some experimenting with scrollsaws and sold some items, but it seems that if I want to make a business out of such things, the accuracy and repeatability of a laser cutter would be the way to go.

AFter a brief search of the internet, I haven't been able to discover the cost of such machines. I'm thinking of a small machine - up to 12 x 18" capacity. I see they are available in lease-to-buy packages which tells me the aren't cheap. SO:

1.) how much are these things to buy outright? (ballpark numbers are ok at this point)
2.) how much maintenance doe they require? are they pretty reliable?
3.) Reccomendations on brands to consider or avoid? And why those brands?
4. Any other tips for us?

Thanks in advance for your replies and your input. SMC is always a great resource!

Dave Sharpe

[Rodne Gold]

Dave, from $12-20k for a new 30-40w unit with all the accesories , filters , blowers and other stuff you need.
They arent inherently reliable or terribly unreliable either, tubes go at random and they are expensive to replace - myriads of other small niggly problems..tho not too bad. You cant leave the machine alone -fires can break out.
All machines of the same spec and price range do the same thing and all mainstream mnfgrs seem to be as good as the other. If you havent seen the name on SMC or rarely see it associated with kind posts or see bad things about it ..prolly best to avoid that brand.
Support and guarantee are prolly going to be important to you - select the brand that has the best in your locale. I wouldnt consider anything that has less than a 18 month to 2 yr bumper to bumper warrantee - tubes are pricey!!

Having said that , a cheap chinese machine with a glass tube is going to be much much cheaper than any mainstream machine ($2k to $4k) and might be worth considering to get your feet wet with whilst you build a market - you can always go for the expensive stuff when you are actually making money (if you actually do - see below)

Other tips
Building a market is the toughest thing of all and is a daunting task in these economic climates - bear in mind that you will have competiton with more experience than you..everyone with a laser these days is looking to make it pay and there are many of em out there - with cheaper chinese machines and mainstream machines already amortised - your pricing model may be awry or your market might be flooded.
Lasers do not cut wood of any appreciable thickness well , leaving charred edges and the like or just not having the power to do so well..they work better on other substrates - so Im not too sure that they will do better than a simple scrollsaw - especially at their price - most crafters dont count a lasered item as a crafted item - whereas scrollsaw stuff is considered "hand made"

Why dont you rather concentrate on design and marketing at first and sub out the cutting work to erstablish whether your concept is actually viable.
Learn the in and outs of the process from the subcontractor and then you will have a good idea of what is actually achievable with the various substrates/wood/designs you are going to use.

When buying the machine , apply the 1/2 x2 rule - halve the promised thruput and double the quoted costs and if it still makes economic sense with your products - go for it.

I will warn you , onesies and crafty type gee gaws are probably never going to make a decent income.
This is a relatively expensive tool and it should make or mark expensive objects.

Search the forums for a lot more comprehensive material on starting up a lasering business and take a look at the thread titled "things I wish I knew before buying a laser " (Im not sure of the exact title - but its about 2-3 months old)

[Mike Null]

I second what Rodney says but even more I'll almost guarantee that you can't make a go of it making and selling things you like to make.

I'll also guarantee that you can find a used machine for sale at a good price from someone who had the same idea.

Engraving is primarily a service rather than a product and most of us who try to make a living from engraving have found a way to market that service be it engraving customers goods or custom engraving for them or engraving something from a wholesalers catalog to their spec.

[Joe Pelonio]

I've been doing laser work now for nearly 7 years, and despite the broad base of potential customers in Seattle and the Eastside (had a shop in Bellevue) I have never been able make a living from it. Before I took a daytime job due to the economy the laser was just one tool in my sign business.

My best customers for laser work are and have always been production wholesale work for others, some manufacturing of parts, and a lot of work for other sign shops. In your location the customer base is a lot smaller, you can certainly ship but it's going to be harder to find them, unless perhaps you could cook up some business from the naval base.

As a supplement to retirement, it's much like what I'm doing now, supplementing my job income. Since my machine is paid off it's mostly I profit, but starting out it could take years to pay for itself. If you do decide to go for it you can be sure that we will all be helpful when you need assistance, but it's also important to realize that a laser is not an instant money maker. If I remember correctly there have been at least 4 lasers offered for sale here on the Creek classifieds in the last 30 days or so, might be good to go back and read those and see if they say why they ended up selling.

[Dave Sharpe]

Thanks for the responses, and the advice. Sounds like my idle musings of making it big in the engraving business are probably just that - idle musings. Rodney, I appreciated the suggestion to concentrate on developing a market and subbing out the actual engraving - sounds like good advice to minimize investment intially while testing out the market. I'm not sure that I'm interested in turning this into a real business at this stage in life, and it sounds like the only way to approach this is as a serious business, so I'll file the whole idea under "maybe one of these days....."

Thanks all.

Dave

[Dave Johnson29]

so I'll file the whole idea under "maybe one of these days....."


Dave,

Don't be too hasty there. There are Chinese made machines ($3K++) that can do a surprisingly good job. Search on here for "Rabbit" and James Jargosky (spelling) he recently bought his second one to supplement his first, still working hard, one.

One of the most common outcomes from Q&A on this group has been, "what I started out to do is not what is making me the money." People started with the idea of engraving and are mnaking money from wall plaques or mirrors or...

If you have a few $K to splurge on a new hobby direction then I say do it. If the few $K means you don't eat until it brings in cash, then don't do it. I am retired and my home-rebuilt laser makes me around $1K per month without even trying. I started out with engraving in mind but I have not engraved anything for many months.

[Bill Morrison]

I'm curious or confused or both. I thought a hobby was for fun and relaxation and not another way of making money. I bought my laser and shopbot for something to do, not as a way to make money. I am just curious if perhaps I have it wrong. IF one has to do without the essentials doesn't that take it out of the hobby class? Not debating mind you, just curious.

[Dave Johnson29]

I thought a hobby was for fun and relaxation and not another way of making money.

Bill,

You make it sound like it is a bad thing to make money from a hobby. A lot of my hobbies have become small business over the years. I had more fun and enjoyment building my lasers than I do using them. maybe the building was a hobby.

When I finally got one working, I messed with some ideas from this group and when I showed them to to some friends, many of them wanted one. They then showed stuff to their friends and suddenly I was getting orders.

Should I have said "cain't be done guys, it's a hobby" or should I make stuff and let the laser earn it's way. After all, the laser tube is a consumable and will need replacing eventually and that is not going to be cheap.

I still regard the laser as a hobby, but for about a total of 40 hours a month it pays it's way. Maybe if I had surplus cash to burn I may be a little more philanthropic, but I am not even close to that level.