Plywood shaper insert ring?

[Dave Cav]

I am using a CMT 40mm molding and profile cutting head in my Delta HD shaper for the first time. The knives are a little wider than the thickness of the boards I'm cutting the edge profile on, so ideally I should drop the cutter head below the table a little bit. Unfortunately the head is too big to go through the factory cast iron insert ring, and there was no way I was going to run that cutterhead without something filling all the extra space left around around the cutter with the CI ring removed. I put the CI ring back and put a piece of 1/4" hardboard on the shaper table, which raised the wood up enough to get the cutter centered on the wood. This seemed like a reasonable temporary work around, but I wanted a more permanent fix, so I used the CI insert ring as a template and used a flush trim bit in the router table to cut out a new ring out of a piece of 3/4" cabinet grade plywood. After some sanding, fitting and screwing it down it seems to work fine, and the shaper cutter dropped down and cut it's own relief in the plywood ring. This seems pretty much exactly like making a plywood ZCI for the table saw, but I'm pretty new to shaper operations, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't violating a Major Shaper Rule somewhere.

BTW the CMT shaper head is a really nice piece of equipment.

[David DeCristoforo]

No rules violated. Standard procedure. No worries.

[Dave Cav]

Thanks; good to know.

I'm new to shaper operations, but I'm pretty impressed with the capabilities of my Delta HD. I know that as shapers go the Delta HD is really only a "medium duty" machine compared to the big cabinet shop and production models, but it has a real 2 HP motor, and pretty much blows a router table away. Really steep learning curve, though.

[Mike Heidrick]

Really steep learning curve, though.


Curious why you say that though compared to a router table? Especially on a Delta? What did you find to be the biggest learning challenge?

Reverse?
Wider Range of profiles and cutter sizes?

[Rod Sheridan]

Dave, the only issue with using those HSS knives to cut plywood is that it dulls them very fast.

I make my rings from HDPE plastic, and drill and tap them for levelling screws.

I use a fly cutter in the drill press to cut half way through for the internal and external hole, then complete them with a pattern router bit.

I presume that your head has chip limiters?

Have fun with the shaper......Regards, Rod

[Dave Cav]

Curious why you say that though compared to a router table? Especially on a Delta? What did you find to be the biggest learning challenge?

Reverse?
Wider Range of profiles and cutter sizes?

Lots more power, much bigger cutters, a lot more setup, many more options with reversable cutters, rub rings, offset fences, and so on. Plus safety and good technique is much more important (not that it's NOT important for a router table).

[Dave Cav]

I presume that your head has chip limiters?

Have fun with the shaper......Regards, Rod

Here's the head I'm using:

http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/cmtshapersys.htm

I believe the design tends to limit the chip size at least compared to older inserted knife designs.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Dave looks like it doesn't have chip limitors. Does the head have a "MEC" or "MAN" designation printed on it?

MEC obviously is for power fed applications, MAN is for hand fed operations.

The insert head I have is for MEC only, however I have seen them with chip limitors, just not the model I own.

Regards, Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

Dave, we use plywood and mdf insert rings on powermatic 27's all the time to get a ring bigger than the largest insert but smaller than the hole in the table. I have lowered a cutter (or raised one) into those inserts on occasions. Usually only with carbide though, not HSS into man made materials. One thing I'm thinking, I didn't read it in your op but I hope you are using the mounting screws for the stock insert plate to hold your shop made version in place. I wouldn't want to see it turn into a small wooden hula hoop. Also, I like to create a bit of clearance between the cutter and the insert. The true ZCI serves no purpose for the table ring but can allow chips to get caught and burn a bit IME. I have backed a fence into a cutter to create a ZCI to minimize tearout, and they do burn a bit, but the compromise seems worth it in those cases.

For my Delta HD shaper at home I have a piece of well waxed mdf with a radius close to the euro blocks (that is what they call those 40MM heads across the pond) and a strip of hard wood underneath for clamping this to the table. It can be quicker to install than changing rings and gives the same functionality for up to half the cutter. Often you don't even have to pull the rings. Another option is to run reverse rotation and let the extra cutter run above the work. I wouldn't like that for a hand feed but for a powerfeed on a 40MM head it works fine.

Rod brings up a good point about hand feed in general. I checked my Amana catalogue (several people sell that exact same set up, mine is from Amana), and I don't see any indication of hand or mechanical feed for that cutter. I have done both, but primarily power feed. Makes me wonder if hand feed is acceptable safety wise.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod brings up a good point about hand feed in general. I checked my Amana catalogue (several people sell that exact same set up, mine is from Amana), and I don't see any indication of hand or mechanical feed for that cutter. I have done both, but primarily power feed. Makes me wonder if hand feed is acceptable safety wise.


The only heads of this type that I've seen marked MAN are the heads with chip limitors.

I have done the same as you Peter, however now I stay away from hand fed operations with my cutterhead.

I would expect that as we adopt or adapt more EC safety standards that cutter markings will become more common.

Regards, Rod.

[Brad Shipton]

Dave, in case you have not seen a version with chip limitors there is a link below showing what Rod and Peter are chatting about. The chip limitors are an EU safety feature. EU safety regulations are quite a bit more stringent and apparently they have inspectors that come around to commercial shops and check things like this.

http://canada.felder-gruppe.at/?page=shop_node&node=950

From what I understand of the EU safety regluations they limit the gullet depth for manual operations. In comparison to the horror stories you read from the old days, I think modern cutters are really quite safe. It still is pretty darn eerie to feel the air from a large cutterhead.

Brad

[Rod Sheridan]

It still is pretty darn eerie to feel the air from a large cutterhead.

Brad

That's for sure, along with the turbine type whine it makes me very glad that I have a stock feeder:D.

Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

http://www.garnigasrl.com/catalogo/informazioni_tecniche.pdf

The above Garniga catalogue gives an explanation of MEC/MAN and feed rate calculations for cutters.

It's in several languages, just scroll through and read the applicable sections.

Regards, Rod.

[Dave Cav]

Thanks for the links and the discussion on safety heads. I assumed someone was making this type of head (Amana, CMT) in steel (Felder) but hadn't seen one. It doesn't look like they are widely available in the US; most of the web search hits I got seemed to be from OZ or Europe. I agree that the current shaper cutters (including the CMT/Amana profile heads) are probably a lot safer than the old style cutters with lots of open space around the perimeter of the cutter. However, one afternoon of messing around with my CMT head convinced me to buy a power feeder (Grizzly 1/2 HP) which I am in the process of getting set up right now. The other thing that drove the purchase is that some of the pieces I'll be shaping are 8 feet long and over a foot wide, and it would be difficult to handle big pieces like that by myself and get a consistent cut without a feeder.

[Rod Sheridan]

You'll enjoy the feeder. and the cutterhead.

It's amazing how great a surface finish HSS knives produce.......Rod.

[Brad Shipton]

Dave, do you use an outboard fence with your shaper? Its amazing how accurate, safe and easy you can prep stock this way. If not, you might want to search that term to understand how many use this. Many use a board clamped to the table or some of us go a bit nuts. Its main advantage is the fact it bridges the space between the infeed and outfeed fences.

Rod, the power feeder is great, but it dont work none to good for end joints :) Even with the stock clamped to the sliding table that big finger joint cutter is a little concerning.

Brad

[Rod Sheridan]

Brad/Dave, yes an outboard fence allows you to do many things, as long as you have a power feeder to control the stock.

I use an outboard fence for profiling rails/stiles, it profiles/dimensions in one shot. I cut the stock about 1/32" oversize and let the shaper do two operations in one.

It's also very useful for tongue/groove work such as cabinet backs, once again profile and dimension in one pass.

And yes Brad, those finger joint cutters are awe inspiring, I don't have one.

regards, Rod.

[Joe Calhoon]

One more thing to keep in mind, EU regulations consider a shaper with a feeder MAN feed. Moulders, Tenoners and Profilers are considered MEC feed because the feeding devices on those machines are more substantial.

That said I have a couple sets of those universal cutters without the limiters and have no problem using them with a feeder. I would avoid hand feed though.

Joe

[Dave Cav]

Dave, do you use an outboard fence with your shaper? Its amazing how accurate, safe and easy you can prep stock this way. If not, you might want to search that term to understand how many use this. Many use a board clamped to the table or some of us go a bit nuts. Its main advantage is the fact it bridges the space between the infeed and outfeed fences.
Brad

I have the Delta, Roger Cliffe and Lonnie Bird shaper books, and none of them discuss an outboard fence. From your and Rod's description, am I correct in assuming that an outboard fence is a straight fence clamped to the table a fixed distance from the cutter head (and split fence) that the stock indexes off of, and the power feeder is set to hold the stock against the outboard fence, not the split fence? It also appears that with this setup the split fence would not even be used and could be retracted back out of the way. Do you run normal or climb cutting with this setup?

I got the power feeder set up this afternoon, and then cut a 2 x 4 into 3 32" pieces to do my test cuts. Most of the 2 x 4 is now chips, but I did get everything dialed in (zero snipe) and got the edges of my cabinets profiled.

I have some more questions about other shaper operations, but I'm going to start another thread.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...am I correct in assuming..."

You got it. Feed either way but NEVER BY HAND!!!!!. A power feeder is essential for this kind of setup and you want a bit more roller pressure than you would "normally" use. The split fence can be used to shroud most of the cutter and to attach your dust sucker.

[Rod Sheridan]

In addition to what David said, you can make a wooden box on the outboard fence to house the cutter head, and provide dust extraction.

Regards, Rod.

[Dave Cav]

Thanks again. I may give the outboard fence technique a try a little later. Sounds like it might come in handy for running T&G, shiplap, things like that. The back of my cabinet will be shiplap solid stock, so that might be an opportunity to give it a try.

[Dave Cav]

Hi Dave looks like it doesn't have chip limitors. Does the head have a "MEC" or "MAN" designation printed on it?

MEC obviously is for power fed applications, MAN is for hand fed operations.

The insert head I have is for MEC only, however I have seen them with chip limitors, just not the model I own.

Regards, Rod.

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner; I was busy drilling and tapping my shaper top for the power feeder.

Yes, the CMT shaper has MEC engraved on the top surface. Interestingly enough there is NO mention of this in the manual or anywhere else with the cutters; must be a Euro spec thing, although I would think that if someone in the States was injured using one of these heads manually a good lawyer would be all over that.

[Peter Quinn]

The only heads of this type that I've seen marked MAN are the heads with chip limiters.

I have done the same as you Peter, however now I stay away from hand fed operations with my cutter head.

I would expect that as we adopt or adapt more EC safety standards that cutter markings will become more common.

Regards, Rod.

I read a bit on a site from some wood workers in GB a while back, and they were discussing euro blocks with chip limiters. The idea seemed to be that the chip limiter cutter head will cut off the tips of your fingers before slapping your hands away on a hand feed should you contact the cutter head while the not limiter heads will suck in your whole hand should things go wrong, and leave you with nubs. Either way your piano career will be over should you touch that cutter. I have one large euro rabbit cutter that is stamped "Mechanical feed only" in plain english, and I have no intentions of ignoring that warning.

On the back fence front, learning that technique was a revelation to me and I strongly urge any shaper user not familiar with it to explore that option. Especially if you are straddled with one of those old delta fences. One doesn't need to throw down for a Martin back fence to get great performance. Mine are a series of scraps, from 1/4" mdf through 6/4 QSWO depending on the thickness of the stock being processed. Any rigid straight edge material thing enough not to interfere with the power feed works fine for me. Micro adjust? A small dead blow and a keen eye. Like John Henry.

[Dave Cav]

On the back fence front, learning that technique was a revelation to me and I strongly urge any shaper user not familiar with it to explore that option. Especially if you are straddled with one of those old delta fences. One doesn't need to throw down for a Martin back fence to get great performance. Mine are a series of scraps, from 1/4" mdf through 6/4 QSWO depending on the thickness of the stock being processed. Any rigid straight edge material thing enough not to interfere with the power feed works fine for me. Micro adjust? A small dead blow and a keen eye. Like John Henry.

I hadn't heard about a back or outboard fence until I started the two shaper threads last week. Now I can't wait to try it; sounds like a great idea and I DO have one of those lousy Delta fences.

[Rod Sheridan]

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner; I was busy drilling and tapping my shaper top for the power feeder.

Yes, the CMT shaper has MEC engraved on the top surface. Interestingly enough there is NO mention of this in the manual or anywhere else with the cutters; must be a Euro spec thing, although I would think that if someone in the States was injured using one of these heads manually a good lawyer would be all over that.

Yes it's an EU safety initiative.............Decades ahead of us.:D

Regards, Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

Dave, the nice thing about the split fence is your ability to carefully dimension stock at the same time you mold it, like for cope and stick door parts. I have an out feed adjust only fence on a minimax shaper whose hood is almost as bad IMO as the old delta still sitting in a corner. On a fence where both plates micro adjust, I'll always set the outfeed to the cutter to dial out snipe, then set the infeed to the depth of cut. I'll rip my stock 1/16" over and take this off on the shaper, exactly. But with an infeed fence that doesn't adjust, that option is effectively lost to you, and the back fence becomes a great option. It can dimension quite precisely, never any snipe problem.

I suppose you could mold, rip to width a bit over and joint, but that is cumbersome, and the TS/jointer method isn't always as precise as I'd like IME. For anything narrow enough to fit between a back fence and the cutter and in need of extreme precision I prefer a back fence.