Hand sanding sucks - is a belt sander the way to go?

[Niels J. Larsen]

I'm currently building a coffee table and I'm now preparing the thing for finishing.

I usually use my Festool ROS up to 180 grit and then switch to hand sanding along the grain with 220 grit and 340 grit.

One of the big reasons I bought into the Festool system is that I absolutely hate dust :D

Naturally there's a lot of dust when hand sanding, so in a moment of insanity I thought about buying a belt sander and using that instead of hand sanding. Since it would be able to sand along the grain, in theory it should work.

However I'm not sure it's the solution to my problems as I've read about a belt sander being hard to handle and will easily leave marks on the surface.

I've also thought about using a card scraper, but my experience with one is very limited (although I have quite a few), so I'm not sure how it compares to sanding - e.g. is it similar to 340 grit or higher?

Would a scraping plane be the solution I'm after?

The question is - apart from using a big stationary drum sander or similar - is there another *really useful and preferably quick and easy* solution to my hand sanding problems?

Niels

[Mitchell Andrus]

If you don't do a lot of large surface sanding, a 4" belt sander is the next best thing to a drum or twin drum machine. A few uses and you'll wonder why you waited to buy one. But.... I have one and hardly touch it though. I run stuff through the double drum.

Of course, the neanders will tell you to learn the old ways of the force and there's nothing wrong with that. Planes and scrapers work very well and make little if any dust, but require elbow grease, a learning curve and extra tools/effort to keep the blades sharp. Some folks don't have the muscle for this for various reasons.
.

[David DeCristoforo]

Unfortunately, (boy, I hate that word!) this is one of those things for which there is no good "shortcut". Sanding or scraping, you must do it. Any power sander will leave marks regardless of the grit you use. They may not be visible if you are using a very fine grit and a really good ROS but they will be there and they will affect the clarity of your finish. "Hand" sanding with fine grits with the grain is the way to go but even this will leave fine scratches. The best method I have found is to hand sand down to 400 and then use the card scraper to remove the fine scratches. You will immediately see the difference in the clarity of the surface. Learning to properly sharpen and use a scraper is an essential skill if you want the "best" finish. It has been said that a properly prepared surface can be finished with a coat of shoe polish and it will look fabulous whereas a poorly prepared surface can be laboriously french polished and it will still be lacking.

[Niels J. Larsen]

Unfortunately, (boy, I hate that word!) this is one of those things for which there is no good "shortcut". Sanding or scraping, you must do it. Any power sander will leave marks regardless of the grit you use. They may not be visible if you are using a very fine grit and a really good ROS but they will be there and they will affect the clarity of your finish. "Hand" sanding with fine grits with the grain is the way to go but even this will leave fine scratches. The best method I have found is to hand sand down to 400 and then use the card scraper to remove the fine scratches. You will immediately see the difference in the clarity of the surface. Learning to properly sharpen and use a scraper is an essential skill if you want the "best" finish. It has been said that a properly prepared surface can be finished with a coat of shoe polish and it will look fabulous whereas a poorly prepared surface can be laboriously french polished and it will still be lacking.

David,

Is it absolutely necessary to hand sand down to 400 *before* using the card scraper?

Would it be possible to use the ROS down to 180 and then switch to the card scraper and obtain the same result?

[Van Huskey]

Although I have done it on occasion I just don't understand why one needs to go past 220. I figure if Jewitt, Flexner, Tolpin and Dresdner don't go beyond 220 why would I. In the end you burnish the wood and cause more finishing headaches. I love card scrapers but depending on how much surface you have they can be something akin to work. In the end if you can get to 180 with the ROS and a light hand sand at 220 I think that is good for almost every finish, probably overkill for a film finish which 180 is quite sufficient except in very hard or very light woods where 220 may be needed even with a film finish.

[Jamie Buxton]

Hunh? You're considering using a belt sander for the finish sanding -- at 220 and 340 grit? No, that's not a good idea. For one, I've never seen sanding belts finer than 180 or so. For two, belt sanders do sometimes dig in.

I'd stick with the Festool ROS for finish sanding. I get discs for mine up to 600 grit. You get a really fine finish, and you get dust collection too.


The folks who argue that sanders leave scratch marks are not taking the abrasives to a fine enough grit. Industry regularly polishes (that is, uses abrasives) lenses to optical quality. The scratch marks are so simply so fine that that they cannot be perceived.

[Niels J. Larsen]

Hunh? You're considering using a belt sander for the finish sanding -- at 220 and 340 grit? No, that's not a good idea. For one, I've never seen sanding belts finer than 180 or so. For two, belt sanders do sometimes dig in.

I'd stick with the Festool ROS for finish sanding. I get discs for mine up to 600 grit. You get a really fine finish, and you get dust collection too.


The folks who argue that sanders leave scratch marks are not taking the abrasives to a fine enough grit. Industry regularly polishes (that is, uses abrasives) lenses to optical quality. The scratch marks are so simply so fine that that they cannot be perceived.

Well I considered a belt sander it in a moment of sanity :D

What type of sanding discs do you use? I know there are an abundance of different ones available...

[Mitchell Andrus]

You will immediately see the difference in the clarity of the surface.

I can't find anything wrong with what David has said, but I'll add some....

If you're planning on staining, test both sanded and scraped surfaces all the way through the finish process. They may look quite different depending on the wood/stains used.
.

[Jamie Buxton]

What type of sanding discs do you use? I know there are an abundance of different ones available...

Dunno if this will help you, in Denmark. But I get these fine-grit sanding discs from Klingspor: http://www.woodworkingshop.com/cgi-bin/ABE5B3D3/mac/qryitems.mac/itemDisplay?qryType=STYLE&itemSt=VD6901SK&coreDsc=6%22%20X%209%20HOLE%20STEARATE%20H%26L%20D ISCS%2050PK

For grits finer than 400, Festool USA sells something I haven't tried. I'd expect you can find it in Europe too. It looks like a foam sheet with abrasive on it. Apparently the back of the foam sticks to the velcro surface of the sanding pad. Festool shows grits of 500, 1000, 2000, and even 4000.

[Frank Drew]

Belt sanders can be tricky, and one false move can put a hell of a divot in your work. For that reason, I like belt sanders with sanding frames, which keep them extremely stable on the work. Even so, I would only use belt sanders for intermediate sanding, finishing with a ROS then hand sanding and/or scraping.

[Jamie Buxton]

Although I have done it on occasion I just don't understand why one needs to go past 220... .

It depends on the finish. If you're applying a rather thick film finish -- for instance spraying or brushing a varnish or lacquer -- then 220 is probably good enough, particularly on soft woods. However, on my best furniture, I like to limit the thickness of my finishes. I use a wipe-on technique precisely because I can keep the finish thin. With a thin film, there's less varnish to fill in the scratches, so it does pay to sand further -- 400 on most any hardwood, and 600 on hardwoods that will take a high polish.

[Glen Butler]

Although I have done it on occasion I just don't understand why one needs to go past 220. I figure if Jewitt, Flexner, Tolpin and Dresdner don't go beyond 220 why would I. In the end you burnish the wood and cause more finishing headaches. I love card scrapers but depending on how much surface you have they can be something akin to work. In the end if you can get to 180 with the ROS and a light hand sand at 220 I think that is good for almost every finish, probably overkill for a film finish which 180 is quite sufficient except in very hard or very light woods where 220 may be needed even with a film finish.

I agree with these statements. But I don't necessarily disagree with David, I just feel that on a majority of stuff sanding that fine isn't necessary. On my production work I don't go past 180 on the ROS and I don't hand sand before the first sealer coat, a light 220 grit on that and I put on the final coat. Never had a customer complain about the finish. ROS swirl marks wont show up on 150 or finer even with a stain. It's your call how much time you want to invest in sanding, but adequate and thorough sanding is key to a good looking product. A belt sander is good for heavy material removal and getting you to a 120 grit. Beyond that the ROS should get you 180 and a 220 hand sand is not that difficult if you have done all the prior steps properly.

[Terry Welty]

I love my belt sander, but I only use it for initial sanding.... I then switch to the ROS with an 80 grit, working then 150 or 180 and finally to 220. I then hand sand with 320 (if necessary) works for me... I usually don't have to sand by hand very long or very hard...

[Howard Acheson]

No, belt sanders are not usable for fine sanding. Anything above 220 should be done by hand. Machine sanding will burnish the wood causing finishing problems.

But, sanding--by hand or machine above 220 grit is not the thing to do anyway.

Here is something I put together a number of years ago. You might find it helpful.

Sanding wood--hard or soft--beyond 220 does little more than burnish the wood making staining difficult. This is particularly true if you are using a pigment stain which sits on the surface and relies on "nooks and crannies" to impart color. Softer more porous woods can be sanded to to 220 but harder less absorbent woods may stain best if only sanded to 150. The best compromise is to aim for 180 grit.

A number of years ago a large cabinet/custom furniture shop I was involved with did series of adhesion tests with various finishes and sealers. As part of this test we explored adhesion based on sanding grit. We found about the same adhesion up to 180 - 220. Beyond 220 adhesion dropped off due to burnishing of the underlying wood particularly when non-linear machine sanders were used. This was tested on birch panels. We also found that the resulting smoothness of the first coat of finish was not materially affected by the smoothnes of the underlying wood for sandpaper grits between 150 - 220.. The smoothest surface substrate for final finishes was obtained by sanding lightly after the first coat of finish was applied and dry. Which makes the case for a thinned first coat of finish.

So our conclusion was that sanding beyond 180-220 was not necessary and could be actually detrimental.

But, most important was that there was a big appearance affect if the surface was not HAND sanded in the direction of the grain using the highest grit used on the sanding machine. A flat pad sander produced a much flatter surface than a ROS. However, both required final hand sanding with the grain for optimum appearence. If not hand sanded, swirl scratches could show. Final hand sanding using a sanding pad in the direction of the grain is a must.

To carry it one step further, sanding at 320-400 grit after the first coat and subsequent coats was the optimum. No improved appearence was noticed by between coat sanding beyond 400 for varnish. 400 was the sweet spot for thinner finishes. Between coat sanding was always done by hand whether for flattening or for adhesion.

I think you will find similar thoughts in the popular finishing books but YMMV.

Finally, the first coat of ANY finish will soak little shards of wood and cause them to raise whether the surface was sanded, planed or scraped. When the first coat of finish dries these hardened shards are what causes the surface to feel rough. Sanding with 320 paper will remove these hardened shards and subsequent coats will go on smoother. So, smoothness counts after the first coat of finish, but not much before that.

The machine finish determines the starting grit. Jointers, planers, belt sanders etc, should leave a finish that allows starting with 100 grit. From there, go to 120 grit and sand until the marks from the prior grit are gone, then move to 150 and finish at 180 grit.

Plywood is factory sanded to 180 grit. Therefore, it's best to not sand plywood except with 180 grit and sand by hand. Get the first coat of finish on and then sand with 320. That way you are sanding the finish, not the wood. This avoids sanding through today's very thin surface veneer.

[Tony Shea]

I agree with above. To sand past 220 on raw wood is just unecessary work and actually could effect the bond of the finish if the wood is polished too much. I do go to 220 on raw wood most of the time and probably that isn't necessary. It's after the 1st coat of finish that you want to smooth thigs up to high polish and subsequent coats as well. These method will leave you with just as smooth a surface than if you went to 400 on raw wood. Save the 320 and 400 for sanding coats of dry finish. For that matter buy a book about finishing and they'll give you great insight on preparing wood and applying finishes.

[Frank Drew]

I also don't believe that sanding past 220 (by hand, with the grain) is necessary -- and I'm talking high end work, under a bright finish -- but I do think you need to spend a good amount of time with the 220, and constantly brushing off your work helps a lot, IMO.

I'm very finicky, and if I'd noticed sanding scratches I'd have revised my methods and gone to higher grits, but I never found it necessary, after all the hand sanding.

[David DeCristoforo]

OK, I'll qualify. If you are using a finish like lacquer or varnish, no, you don't need to go finer than 220. But for oils, you do. I wet sand my oil finishes down to at least 600 and sometimes finer. And yes, you can probably go to the scraper after a sanding with 180. It will just be more work to remove the scratches.

[Richard Dragin]

If you are using a hand held belt sander to do finished work you might be a redneck. It really is a tool of last resort for carpentry and has no place in fine woodworking.

I like to sand to 500 and burnish the wood for my rockers but then I use clear Danish so pigment isn't an issue. If you are staining listen to Howie.

[Tri Hoang]

I may be going out on a limb here but if you hate dust, don't make it in the first place. Hand planes & scrapers will give you a finish ready ...usually faster than sanding.

I hated dust too and have gone to extremes to control it. I've learned along the way that the best way to deal with dust is not making it. Shavings are better than chips. Chips are better than coarse dust. Coarse dust is better than fine dust.

[Andrew Gibson]

I made a pair of tables last year, a tv table and a coffee table. The tops were roughly 2, 8-10" boards joined together with biscuits. After the glue up I had slight differences in the boards and needed to level and smooth them. The first I broke out the belt sander with 180 grit belt. It left a very scratched surface and I ended up with a card scraper and a couple blistered thumbs (first time using a card scraper) to get to a point that I was happy with, then a light hand sanding with a block and 180 and 220 and I was done. Probably spent 5 min max on each grit after the scraping if that. (tops were about 18"x48")

the second table I went straight to the card scraper and in half the time i had spent with the belt stander I had a Nice smooth flat slightly curly cherry table top. again maybe 10 min of sanding and I was done.

I picked up a cabinet scraper as my new toy a few weeks ago and used it to level a glued up panel and in a couple minuets I had a flat and smooth surface. hand sanded with basically only a few strokes of 180 then a couple coats of waterlox and sand at 220 few more coats level with 320 coat or 2 more and 0000 wool and wax and I'm done.

[Robert Chapman]

Sanding is the least favorite part of woodworking for me. So here's what I have done to minimize it. I bought a Jet 16 -32 drum sander. I use 150 grit paper in it. After the drum sander I use the ROS with 150, 180 and 220 grit. It takes very little time to get to the 220 ROS and then I use a thinned polyurethane/tung oil. I sand with 220 between the first three wiped on coats and then 320 and 400 grit with the last two coats. Makes a very nice furniture quality finish.

[Kent A Bathurst]

OK, I'll qualify. If you are using a finish like lacquer or varnish, no, you don't need to go finer than 220. But for oils, you do. I wet sand my oil finishes down to at least 600 and sometimes finer. And yes, you can probably go to the scraper after a sanding with 180. It will just be more work to remove the scratches.

OK- you were referring to wet sanding the oil finish, not dry sanding the bare wood. THAT I can understand, of course.....

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Ud0zpPeim_QPLM:http://blog.lillypulitzer.com/wp-content/plugins/Flutter/phpThumb.php%3Fsrc%3Dfiles_flutter/1228408931horseofadifferentcolor.jpg%26w%3D450 (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.lillypulitzer.com/wp-content/plugins/Flutter/phpThumb.php%3Fsrc%3Dfiles_flutter/1228408931horseofadifferentcolor.jpg%26w%3D450&imgrefurl=http://blog.lillypulitzer.com/2008/12/04/now-thats-a-horse-of-a-different-color/&usg=__fzLZAwwDGtz3vFpfY4MAZmiymRc=&h=299&w=450&sz=38&hl=en&start=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Ud0zpPeim_QPLM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwizard%2Bof%2Boz%2Bhorse%2Bof%2Ba%2Bd ifferent%2Bcolor%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1)

[Mark Woodmark]

After finish has cured

http://www.griotsgarage.com/product/car+care/car+polishing/orbitals+and+car+polishing+tools/griot%27s+garage+random+orbital.do

http://www.griotsgarage.com/product/car+care/car+polishing/orbitals+and+car+polishing+tools/professional+3+inch+random+orbital.do

[Chip Lindley]

Hand belt sanders are at the Bottom of the Sanding Food Chain!

Belt sanders are notorious for tipping and gouging the surface at exactly the wrong moment. In the time it takes to learn how to use a big heavy BS with finesse, you could probably have hand scraped the whole project.

Some BS's have accessory *sanding frames* which help things along considerably. BUT, still there is that CLOUD OF DUST! (WITHOUT the hearty Hi-Oh Silver!) Unless you have a downdraft table, belt sanders are not too awfully dustless.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...use a big heavy BS with finesse..."

Oxymoron!

[Frank Martin]

Mirka vac block:
http://www.amazon.com/Mirka-91490-4-Inch-5-Inch-Abranet/dp/B001BKXWEE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1266209933&sr=8-1

These have been available in Europe for at least couple years, finally available here in the US. I really like it. The port fits the Festool hose readily. Excellent dust collection. I had thought Festool would come out with hand sanding pads with dust collection. Instead they came out with regular old sanding blocks at a steep price...

[Van Huskey]

OK, I'll qualify. If you are using a finish like lacquer or varnish, no, you don't need to go finer than 220. But for oils, you do. I wet sand my oil finishes down to at least 600 and sometimes finer. And yes, you can probably go to the scraper after a sanding with 180. It will just be more work to remove the scratches.

Now that makes sense, I thought we were talking about bare wood exclusively.

[Niels J. Larsen]

Mirka vac block:
http://www.amazon.com/Mirka-91490-4-Inch-5-Inch-Abranet/dp/B001BKXWEE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1266209933&sr=8-1

These have been available in Europe for at least couple years, finally available here in the US. I really like it. The port fits the Festool hose readily. Excellent dust collection. I had thought Festool would come out with hand sanding pads with dust collection. Instead they came out with regular old sanding blocks at a steep price...

Actually Festool have just released hand sanding pads with dust collection and I might buy into that.

However I'd still like to avoid hand sanding (and the noise from the vacuum if I go the Festool way) all together.

I think I'll try the card scraper and some wet sanding since I'll be applying Danish Oil.

[Charles Robertson]

I've been using belt sanders since the late 60's. I know I'm not good enough with them for finish sanding. Own several and rarely use them. In my opinion, unless I'm doing freeform, I use thickness planer, hand plane, random orbit, scraper/handsand-(in what ever order). Not for every one, but it works for me and I'm stickin' to it! You need to have one for those special times but I believe you will rarely use it. You have gotten a lot of good advice from all above. Get one, you will use it. Practice on plywood, you will see how they are a bit testy to control. Thinner the vineer the better. Good luck.

[Charles Robertson]

Don't see how you can avoid hand sanding if you are working with wood. A good vac is pretty darn quiet. I have a Fein-hardly hear it. Wood is solidified dust.

[Al Willits]

No, belt sanders are not usable for fine sanding. Anything above 220 should be done by hand. Machine sanding will burnish the wood causing finishing problems.

But, sanding--by hand or machine above 220 grit is not the thing to do anyway.

Here is something I put together a number of years ago. You might find it helpful.

Sanding wood--hard or soft--beyond 220 does little more than burnish the wood making staining difficult. This is particularly true if you are using a pigment stain which sits on the surface and relies on "nooks and crannies" to impart color. Softer more porous woods can be sanded to to 220 but harder less absorbent woods may stain best if only sanded to 150. The best compromise is to aim for 180 grit.

A number of years ago a large cabinet/custom furniture shop I was involved with did series of adhesion tests with various finishes and sealers. As part of this test we explored adhesion based on sanding grit. We found about the same adhesion up to 180 - 220. Beyond 220 adhesion dropped off due to burnishing of the underlying wood particularly when non-linear machine sanders were used. This was tested on birch panels. We also found that the resulting smoothness of the first coat of finish was not materially affected by the smoothnes of the underlying wood for sandpaper grits between 150 - 220.. The smoothest surface substrate for final finishes was obtained by sanding lightly after the first coat of finish was applied and dry. Which makes the case for a thinned first coat of finish.

So our conclusion was that sanding beyond 180-220 was not necessary and could be actually detrimental.

But, most important was that there was a big appearance affect if the surface was not HAND sanded in the direction of the grain using the highest grit used on the sanding machine. A flat pad sander produced a much flatter surface than a ROS. However, both required final hand sanding with the grain for optimum appearence. If not hand sanded, swirl scratches could show. Final hand sanding using a sanding pad in the direction of the grain is a must.

To carry it one step further, sanding at 320-400 grit after the first coat and subsequent coats was the optimum. No improved appearence was noticed by between coat sanding beyond 400 for varnish. 400 was the sweet spot for thinner finishes. Between coat sanding was always done by hand whether for flattening or for adhesion.

I think you will find similar thoughts in the popular finishing books but YMMV.

Finally, the first coat of ANY finish will soak little shards of wood and cause them to raise whether the surface was sanded, planed or scraped. When the first coat of finish dries these hardened shards are what causes the surface to feel rough. Sanding with 320 paper will remove these hardened shards and subsequent coats will go on smoother. So, smoothness counts after the first coat of finish, but not much before that.

The machine finish determines the starting grit. Jointers, planers, belt sanders etc, should leave a finish that allows starting with 100 grit. From there, go to 120 grit and sand until the marks from the prior grit are gone, then move to 150 and finish at 180 grit.

Plywood is factory sanded to 180 grit. Therefore, it's best to not sand plywood except with 180 grit and sand by hand. Get the first coat of finish on and then sand with 320. That way you are sanding the finish, not the wood. This avoids sanding through today's very thin surface veneer.


Agreed, in my limited exprience, belt sanders are to remove material, not finish work, to easy to leave marks, gouges and stuff.

I've had good luck using the same method as Howard has, I've used mainly poly's and Danish oil, or Danish oil and BLO or Tung oil mixtures.

Al

[Darnell Hagen]

Belt sanders are a crude roughing tool in my shop.

Walnut and Cherry love 220, I find any finer prohibits oil penetration.

Oak is so pourous I stop at 120.

You don't need to sand before you scrape, do it right from the planer. Sanding leaves grit that dulls edge tools.

You don't want a belt sander, you want a stroke sander:

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s168/DarnellHagen/100_3104-1.jpg

[Howard Acheson]

>>> Hand belt sanders are at the Bottom of the Sanding Food Chain!

I have a 4" belt sander that I use every time I need to flatten a glued up panel. I don't have a wide belt sander and neither did we in the shop I was involved with. Our guys could flatten 3x5 foot panel in a couple of minutes using a 4" belt sander. It takes me a few minutes more but it still is more ecomical than buying a wide belt sander. I will start with 80 or 100 grit depending on how well I aligned the boards during glue up. Then I will move to 120 grit. Next I change to a 1/2 sheet orbital sander and move up to 180 grit. At that point I finish off by hand sanding with 180 grit on a felt covered sanding block. At this point, the surface is perfectly flat.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...a 4" belt sander that I use every time I need to flatten a glued up panel..."

With skill and care, one can get a panel flat with a hand held belt sander. Of course, without skill and care, you can do a lot of damage with one. But the OP's question had to do with finish sanding with fine grits and that is a whole different story...