Sommerfeld's Router Setup

[Rich Johnson]

Went to a woodworking show today and watched a Demo with the Sommerfeld table, fence, router bits, and Triton router. It was impressive. Yes it was a guy who knew what he was doing but the ease of the process made me consider there system. Router bits all the same size so no height adjustments when changing bits, ect. There prices are reasonable as well, I know you get what you pay for but again it made me strongly consider them for my setup.

Any comments both positive and negitive?

[Mike Heidrick]

Pretty impressive show done by a guy that does it for a living a ton of weekends a year. Whats up with Sommerfield and CMT?

[Bob Wingard]

I have one of his earlier "laminate" router table tops and it has served me well. A friend of mine wanted one,, and was convinced to buy the newer aluminum extruded table top at about 2X the $$$. I can't tell you how many times he's offered to trade .. he just can't get that wings aligned. I've read that they had some problems with a few batches, but this thing has been awful.

Marc & CMT parted ways a few years back about when he "introduced" his Chinese-made "Sommerfeld's Own" brand of bits. He must have had a LOT of CMT inventory, 'cause he's been "closing-out" his remaining CMT tooling for at least 3-4 years.

He's a great salesman/talker with a decent line of product .. take that for what it's worth. I've bought some of his stuff .. usually after giving it lots of forethought. I really hesitate to make spontaneous purchases of major items at the shows .. too much emotion involved.

[Jim Eller]

I just purchased Marc's tongue and groove set to put the corners of a chest together.

It worked as advertised. Perfect flush fit. No height adjustment need when changing bits! Man that was cool.

Jim

[Bob Wingard]

I just purchased Marc's tongue and groove set to put the corners of a chest together.

It worked as advertised. Perfect flush fit. No height adjustment need when changing bits! Man that was cool.

Jim

And .. you're lucky you bought them recently .. .. search back through the archives, and you'll see a pretty heated discussion about those bits and how they worked in their original configuration .. (they didn't). Tongues were never the same depth as the grooves, so if you used Marc's prescribed joinery technique, you could never make a square box .. .. it's a long story, and it looks like he's fixed it, but it was a real nightmare early on .. and the only reason he fixed it was because of all the griping going on right here. If I remember correctly, Al Navas kept him apprised of what was going on here, and he finally made some retroactive corrections (thanks Al). I don't think for a minute Marc is a really bad guy .. he just wouldn't step up to do what was necessary to make these bits work as advertised .. and his wife made matters worse by claiming this was the intended way for them to work.

Defective product + untruthful denial = I'll buy my stuff elsewhere.

[Jim Eller]

Bob,

I guess I waited long enough. I've never purchased from Marc before this. I have seen him and his booth at the shows but never attended.

I purchased his video set in Atlanta the end of January. After watching them I though the tongue and groove set would work for the hope chest I was building. And it did.

Jim

[Bruce Wrenn]

I've seen Marc for years, even when he was doing in conjunction with Kreg. He used to use a Hitachi router, which he also sold, instead of the Triton. Swore the Hitachi was the best thing since sliced bread. Remember that at the show, most of the demonstrators are "showmen." Look at the guy doing Freud blades for Peachtree. For years he did Oldham blades. The only exception to the "showmen" status (IMHO) is Jerry Cole with his Dubby. He puts on a great demo, and as a very satisfied owner, I can duplicate what he does at the show. But Jerry invented and improved the Dubby, so he knows his stuff.

[Al Navas]

...search back through the archives, and you'll see a pretty heated discussion about those bits and how they worked in their original configuration .. (they didn't). Tongues were never the same depth as the grooves, so if you used Marc's prescribed joinery technique, you could never make a square box .. .. it's a long story, and it looks like he's fixed it, but it was a real nightmare early on .. and the only reason he fixed it was because of all the griping going on right here. If I remember correctly, Al Navas kept him apprised of what was going on here, and he finally made some retroactive corrections (thanks Al)....
That be me, Bob <raising my hand...> :)

I worked with Sommerfeld to address the problem,as it had turned into somewhat of a PR issue. By the time I contacted him he had started production of the bearings that resulted in the permanent fix. I use T&G in all ply boxes, as they are very good, and always give me excellent results. Add durability, and the bits are really a good buy. And having the capability of changing from one bit to the other as often as you wish is something to be experienced to be appreciated.

The following is the fit you can expect to get from this matched-height router bit set:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/Sandal_Woods/Shop%20Tools/Tgjoint-sommerfeld.jpg

So, quite a water under the bridge by now, and pretty much a permanent fix. Bob Wingard deserves a lot of credit, for keeping the issue alive for as long as he did.

.

[Bob Wingard]

Yeah .. and I probably should not have brought it up at this time .. it just triggered some old thoughts & memories and I had it all written and sent brfore giving it a second thought. As I said though .. Marc's not a bad guy .. he just made some bad business decisions, and it made him (and his wife) look kinda silly by just not admitting to the simple math of the matter. Yes, he did make it right, and that was all I asked inn the first place. In fact, his retrofit bearing still didn't work quite as well as the one I made/modified when I was working, and I too, still use it to this day. It's a wonderful concept, it was just poorly implemented in it's early days. In his defense, I even contacted CMT directly both by email and in person at the IWF show that year, and they never responded to the email .. the guy at the IWF show looked at me as if I were an alien when I tried telling him of the simple dimensional error. He took some notes, saying they'd analyze the complaint and get back to me .. .. that was either 4 or 6 years ago .. .. I think I'll quit waiting any day now .. . hehehehe.

Craig goofed and didn't want to own up to the error .. CMT made the parts to his spec's, and didn't want to support what they made, claiming the error, IF ANY EXISTED, was Craig's, and said to contact him. THAT attempt was answered by his wife, Donna who claimed the error was a FEATURE !! !! !!

There I go again .. .. .. I gotta quit this nonsense.

Nice hearing from you again, Al .. .. ..

[Scott Thornton]

I've bought my share of Sommerfeld products, mostly back in the day, his laminate top, then phenolic top, some router bits etc. When he first switched from CMT to the Chinese orange bits the router bit set I had was off, tongue and groove didn't line up. They were replaced at no charge...

As for recommending them, I wouldn't not recommend his stuff, but also there are a lot of comparable products out there. Kreg, Jessum, Woodhaven etc. all offer great stuff too.

[Bob Wingard]

That be me, Bob <raising my hand...> :)

I worked with Sommerfeld to address the problem,as it had turned into somewhat of a PR issue. By the time I contacted him he had started production of the bearings that resulted in the permanent fix. I use T&G in all ply boxes, as they are very good, and always give me excellent results. Add durability, and the bits are really a good buy. And having the capability of changing from one bit to the other as often as you wish is something to be experienced to be appreciated.

The following is the fit you can expect to get from this matched-height router bit set:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/Sandal_Woods/Shop%20Tools/Tgjoint-sommerfeld.jpg

So, quite a water under the bridge by now, and pretty much a permanent fix. Bob Wingard deserves a lot of credit, for keeping the issue alive for as long as he did.

.

Hey Al .. .. here's the joint, made with my homemade bearing collar .. it don't get any better than this .. .. ..

[John Lucas]

Pretty impressive show done by a guy that does it for a living a ton of weekends a year. Whats up with Sommerfield and CMT?

They split 3 or 4 years ago. Marc then found CHinese mfr and has been sole distributor for them in US. I have not used any of his new bits but I assume that if Marc imported them, they woud be good. They dont look to have carbide as thick as CMT, but proabably way more than is necessary. Marc is the very best demonstrator and video maker. Anyone who has interest in makig raised panel doors and cabinets should order one or more of his videos. A great way to learn.

[Chuck Werts]

I have the T&G set and the shaker raised panel set. I never made anything with a router before and it was easy to use both sets. They all line up just like the demo. I didn't spend the money for the table and fence though. Way to expensive I think.

[Stephen Edwards]

How do you use two separate router bits, change the bits and end up with the perfect height without having to make any adjustments unless you bottom the bits in the collet?

My understanding is that it's not a good practice to bottom the bits in the collet.

[Chuck Werts]

they give you a 1/2 rubber grommet to put in the bottom of the collet.

[Myk Rian]

My PC collet is so deep, nothing will bottom out. You can take small O-rings and put them around the shaft of the bits.

[Jim Eller]

Myk,

Marc addresses the PC issue. He recommends gluing the grommet to a dowel rod. He gives the dowel rod length with the grommets and bit sets and on his web site.

Stephen,

To add to what Chuck said, the bits are manufactured at the same height. I can tell you that the tongue and groove set work perfectly without and adjusting to the height. You just change bits and away you go.

Jim

[robert micley]

i have some sommerfield bits. they seem very good. i caanot tell the difference between freud, whiteside or sommerfield or cmt. i did but the tabletop and fence but returned it however. the tabletop is made of three aluminun extrusions bolted together. when bolted the flatness of the top was way off for me. also the fence was not square enough for me to the tabletop with no way to shim it square. that being said i have had issues with many "quality tools". for instance the festool mft angle gauge, cheap insert rings on an otherwise great jointech router lift, tabletop flatness and polish on a delta 3 hp table saw, narrow wooden edge guide and too much flexibilty in the microfence product, collet problems in the bosch colt palm router.no sliding miter saws provide perfect accuracy on my 45s and 90 degree cuts like my table saw miter gauge. these folks talking about perfect out of the box are not holding up their cuts to the light holding a accurate gauge. some of my tools are really perfect like my lamello, akeda jig, dowelmax, grizzly jointer but i have had my share of frustrations.

[Anchul Axelrod]

I own both the old table AND the new table as well as many of his bits. It's a great system!!

[Courtney Brown]

I used just the Kreg pocket hole system to make storage cabinet. It just would not come out square. I then watch a Summerfeld video using his tongue and groove system. I ordered the tongue set and made another storage cabinet. His cabinet set made a big difference. Everything fit perfectly.

I had a nut fall out of my router fence and damage one of the bits (I forgot an important rule – check and recheck all fittings starting up the router J). I called Summerfeld about a replacement and a few days I had it. Since then I have purchased several other items from Summerfeld’s.

I’ve had a chance to talk with Marc, his Wife and his son at several different woodworking shows this past couple of years. Very pleasant to deal with.

Courtney

[Jim Eller]

Here are a couple more examples of Sommerfeld's tongue and groove set. This is in hickory.

Jim

[Bob Wingard]

"I’ve had a chance to talk with Marc, his Wife and his son at several different woodworking shows this past couple of years. Very pleasant to deal with."

I don't think I've ever said Marc was a bad guy .. .. but he DID make some bad business decisions, then denied the problem and made up excuses for a defective product, and eventually made it right .. BUT .. only after he was cornered with the facts & dimensions, and it was relayed to him that he was getting some rather bad press right here on the Creek.