Dimensional Wood Not Dimensional?

[Mike Goetzke]

Warning - sort of a rant.

I needed to buy some 2x10x8' boards to add support to the load carrying I-beam in the basement. I went to Lowe's and when I got home for some reason I measured the width and the two boards and they were 9" even though the tag said 9-1/4"! Returned them, went to Menard's and they had the true 9-1/4" but the lumber was soaked from sitting outside. OK - Home Depot, theirs were all warped and also 9". Stopped at Lowe's since it was on the way home figuring I'd just use shims. Just by chance I looked at the 16 footers - they were all 9-1/4". So I guess buyer beware or maybe the standard on dimensional lumber has changed?.

[David Thompson 27577]

Warning - sort of a rant.

I needed to buy some 2x10x8' boards to add support to the load carrying I-beam in the basement. I went to Lowe's and when I got home for some reason I measured the width and the two boards and they were 9" even though the tag said 9-1/4"! Returned them, went to Menard's and they had the true 9-1/4" but the lumber was soaked from sitting outside. OK - Home Depot, theirs were all warped and also 9". Stopped at Lowe's since it was on the way home figuring I'd just use shims. Just by chance I looked at the 16 footers - they were all 9-1/4". So I guess buyer beware or maybe the standard on dimensional lumber has changed?.

Perhaps "the standard" has changed, but more likely, you have experienced the differences in dimension that happen as a result of changes in moisture.

And yes, that can make a 1/4" difference in a 2X10.

[Myk Rian]

HoPo, Menards, and Lowes, OH MY. :eek:

[David DeCristoforo]

The Ron Popeil rotisserie oven comes with a disclaimer to the effect that the slogan, "set it and forget it" is "not to be taken literally. Stock dimensions, likewise, are not be take literally. A "2X10" can range anywhere in thickness from 1 1/4" to 1 3/4" and in width from 9" to 9 3/4". The one thing you can count on, regardless of where you buy it, is that it will not be 2" X 10".

[Ben Franz]

This is one of the reasons I quit buying framing lumber from the BORGs. The moisture content varies wildly - I think it's a combination of poor drying and improper storage.

"Real" lumberyards can usually be trusted not to make things worse by improper storage and some of them even buy better stock to begin. The payoff is when a load of trash is delivered, one call can usually get it replaced if you're a regular customer.

One job I did years ago required framing a new floor next to a section that had been framed several months earlier and sat exposed while the project was suspended (client financial meltdown). We had to buy KD stock to avoid mismatched floor frame problems.

Green wood can be evil stuff!

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

one call can usually get it replaced if you're a regular customer.


Why would I need to be a regular customer to deal with a load of 'trash'?

I'm sorry, but the whole notion of "dimensioned" wood (e.g. a 1-by-something being only 3/4" or a 2-by being 1.5") is to take into account all of the factors that cause lumber to become smaller - either to due moisture/drying or due to cutting/planing. I expect a 2x4 is actually 1.5x3.5 to take this into account - so I don't think a customer should be told that it's even smaller. Following that logic, a 2x4 is allowed to be 1.5x3.5 which means the mill could cut the raw lumber to 1.5x3.5 and then additional planing and shrinking bringing it down to 1x3 or less. Where does it stop?

"Honey, can you get my 2x4's for me? They're in the kitchen cupboard, in the box labeled 'toothpicks' "...

[Steve Jenkins]

I don't think it does stop. A 2x4 years ago was 2x4 then went to about 1-3/4x3-3/4 then 1-1/2x3-1/2 and now is getting on the shy side of that.

[Chip Lindley]

IT STOPS where load bearing strength for a certain size and grade of lumber becomes unobtainable. Building codes DO remain in effect!

[Eddie Darby]

Just another good reason for owning a moisture meter.
You never know what moisture content the Borg's are offering this week!

[Mike Goetzke]

Just another good reason for owning a moisture meter.
You never know what moisture content the Borg's are offering this week!

The board I ended up buying that was 9-1/4" was really dry - 5-6% moisture level. I used doubled up LVL beams to hold the ceiling joists on this 8' wall. In the basement I used a big sledge hammer to drive the 2x10's next to the floor joists to get full support on the steel I-beam below.

[Pete Shermet]

This is one of my pet peeves!! and I blame it on the mills not the moisture in the lumber. some mills are just plain ripping the general public off, in order to get more lumber out of the logs! You can't begin to tell me that, with todays technology we can't minimize waste using thin kerf blades.
What happens to the building code when the "2 X 4" goes from 1-5/8 X 3-5/8 to less than 1-1/2 X 3-1/2. Again does this not affect the load bearing properties of the lumber and hence the integrity of the structure? I raised this issue with the Canadian Wood Council years ago when I ran into the problem while buiding my deck. I also brought it to the attention of Standard Weights and Measures.(Federal Canadian Government). They just choose to turn a blind eye to it and the industry just lumbers along (pun intended)!!!!!
I am very wary when I shop for lumber, a good lumber yard will also be aware of the issue and instruct their buyers not to purchase this substandard S#!T!!! Rant over ! We should band together and complain to these agencies formally , strength in numbers!!!
PS>. We all got ripped royally when they went to "Metric " Plywood!!

[Mark Woodmark]

The Menards in our area occasionally sells 2x's that are 1-3/8". Wood shrinkage happens primarily across the grain (width) and only slightly in thickness. Almost nothing in length. A 2x10 would have to experience a drastic change in moisture content to grow or shrink 1/4" in width. This could happen as it appears sawmills are shipping lumber with a higher moisture content than they used to. The four Menards in our area have all moved the bulk of their construction lumber to outside storage (a covered shed)....wonder if there is a connection between the two?

[Peter Quinn]

Anyone know why they started dimensioning framing lumber in the first place? My guess is its harder to compensate for irregularities in framing with sheetrock than it was with plaster? What real purpose otherwise does the dimensioning serve the builder? My old house is built with full dimension lumber, and it is quite a bit more rigid than the hem/fir tooth picks I see these days. And not so many knots either.

[Jim German]

mmm yet another, "They don't make em like they used to" thread.

You can read the whole history on dimensional lumber over at ye olde wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensional_lumber#Dimensional_lumber).

Personaly I wish the Lowes/Home Depots would just get lumber/molding that was flat and straight. Such a pain to have to go through a big pile just to find a board that is reasonably straight.

And to anwser the question of when will it stop, it'll stop when people stop buying the small/warped/twisted boards.

[Josiah Bartlett]

This is one of my pet peeves!! and I blame it on the mills not the moisture in the lumber. some mills are just plain ripping the general public off, in order to get more lumber out of the logs! You can't begin to tell me that, with todays technology we can't minimize waste using thin kerf blades.
What happens to the building code when the "2 X 4" goes from 1-5/8 X 3-5/8 to less than 1-1/2 X 3-1/2. Again does this not affect the load bearing properties of the lumber and hence the integrity of the structure? I raised this issue with the Canadian Wood Council years ago when I ran into the problem while buiding my deck. I also brought it to the attention of Standard Weights and Measures.(Federal Canadian Government). They just choose to turn a blind eye to it and the industry just lumbers along (pun intended)!!!!!
I am very wary when I shop for lumber, a good lumber yard will also be aware of the issue and instruct their buyers not to purchase this substandard S#!T!!! Rant over ! We should band together and complain to these agencies formally , strength in numbers!!!
PS>. We all got ripped royally when they went to "Metric " Plywood!!

They aren't wasting the kerf, it goes to make MDF or gets burned to power the mill.

[Mark Woodmark]

IT STOPS where load bearing strength for a certain size and grade of lumber becomes unobtainable. Building codes DO remain in effect!

Just because building codes require it doesnt mean they cant slim up a 2x4 more. If 2x4's got narrower, builders would have to start using 2x6's. Sounds like a good way to make more money.

[Chris Friesen]

A "2X10" can range anywhere in thickness from 1 1/4" to 1 3/4" and in width from 9" to 9 3/4".

Not so, at least for graded softwood dimensional lumber. According to the American Softwood Lumber Standard, a nominal dry "2x10" must be at least 1.5"x9.25" and be of at most 19% moisture content. Lumber sold as "green" can be higher moisture but a nominal 2x10 must be at least 1 9/16" x 9 1/2".

In dry lumber if you're seeing anything under 1 1/2 x 9 1/4 then you're getting fleeced.

[David DeCristoforo]

"... if you're seeing anything under 1 1/2 x 9 1/4 then you're getting fleeced...."

Isn't that the point? And forget codes. Ever notice how codes seem to be constantly "adjusted" to embrace "new materials and techniques" that are really nothing more than a way to allow houses to be built cheaper and faster? Right now we are seeing the crummiest houses ever built and every one of them conforms to code.

[Harry Hagan]

Back in the late 70s and early 80s I managed a lumber yard.

Years later a window commercial reminded me of the incompetent bozos that would come wandering through the door claiming to be “builders”. This commercial featured one of those guys replacing a magnetic sign on his old truck that proclaimed his prowess as a plumber with a new sign citing his expertise as a window installer: “Today I do windows”; he proudly says through nicotine-stained teeth.

We always knew when a local factory had laid off workers when a sudden influx of new “carpenters” hit the street.
One day a “builder” was complaining about problems his crew was having getting things to fit. He was a regular customer and had built three to four houses per year for several years. After getting answers to a few obvious questions; I realized, he didn’t know how to lay out a square foundation. Not a clue. He’d never heard of the concept.

That’s when I started offering free seminars on “new” materials and building techniques. Rest assured, he did leave my office that day knowing how to properly lay out a foundation.

Crummy houses? You bet. Up to code? Unlikely.

[Lee Schierer]

It's all in the marketing. Years ago as Steve pointed out a 2 x 4 was 2 x 4 and the lumber yard ate the sawdust to give you a nice looking board that was 2 x 4. Then some marketing guy figured that the sawdust was part of the cost and he could get more product if he started with a 2 x 4 blank and shaved off the saw marks and let you pay for the sawdust and shaving. There were even tests done of conventional 2 x 4's and the new slimmer boards to show that you weren't losing much strength in your house.

The same thing is happening to ice cream and other products. You used to buy a half gallon. Now you buy a container that looks like the half gallon size, but really is only 1-1/2 quarts for the same price you used to pay for a half gallon.

Just be glad you house isn't made like part of mine. The studs in the addition on my house were all rough cut hard maple and are truly 2 x 4. Try pounding drywall nails into maple one at a time without bending them.