Question about epoxy floor prep

[Phil Thien]

Rehabbing the basement shop a little bit. Plan is to use some form of epoxy floor covering with some grit in it to prevent slipping.

Anyway, all the products I've seen so far have you etch the floor with some stuff that comes with the kit. Then you rinse the floor.

I can see doing that in a garage, but how do I do it in a basement where I have walls between the area I'm working and the floor drain? I don't want to get my base plates soaked.

Is hosing the acid wash off the floor required? Or will I be able to use a mop to do this?

Are there epoxy alternatives that don't require etching that I can still use with the colored chips? I like the colored chips.

[Andrew Nemeth]

You should be fine wet mopping it up. You may want to repeat it a few times. Also, provide good ventilation when you use the etching agent. Muratic acid, one of the most common agents, is very caustic to metal and will rust your iron fast. Good luck. I hope you get your sprikles soon.

[Phil Thien]

You should be fine wet mopping it up. You may want to repeat it a few times. Also, provide good ventilation when you use the etching agent. Muratic acid, one of the most common agents, is very caustic to metal and will rust your iron fast. Good luck. I hope you get your sprikles soon.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm afraid of muriatic acids for that exact reason. The kits I'm looking at come w/ citric acids. But isn't acid, acid? Won't vapors from either eat metals up? My concern is they say the citric acid should etch the concrete to feel like 150-grit sandpaper. So that is pretty strong stuff.

[David Christopher]

Okay.

My concern is they say the citric acid should etch the concrete to feel like 150-grit sandpaper. So that is pretty strong stuff.

grape juice will do the same thing....rental companys use grape juice to clean up their motor and concrete mixers

[Michael Flores]

Try painting an area with the epoxy paint and see how well its hold up, the acid is to clean the concrete from all the oil and gas from cars. We never parked our cars in the garage so i didn't have saturated oil. When i bought the epoxy paint i spilled some on the floor before i did the acid wash and once it dried it wouldn't come off for nothing.

The company i work for just had the floor done in the plant and the company that was subcontracted just came in and rolled it on without the acid wash. Extremely durable.

[Dale Probst]

Phil,
You can rent a buffer with coarse abrasive pads, buff the concrete, then vacuum and mop. You're just trying to give the epoxy a foot hold. If you go the acid route, use clear lacquer or paint on your metal parts before you put the acid down and they should be okay.
DP

[Alan Schaffter]

Phil- three issues

1. Was the floor sealed - does it have a glossy look or is it flat? If shiny, that needs to come off.

2. Is the floor smooth and greasy/oily or just dirty? Smooth and greasy, use Muriatic acid. As you know it is another name for hydrochloric acid! It attacks metals and bases (which is why it is used to etch concrete)

3. If the floor is not greasy or oily, then all it needs is to have a textured surface for the epoxy to bond with. Muriatic is the choice again because it is reasonably inexpensive in quantity and works fairly quickly, but may not be suitable for use inside with limited ventilation.

If you use acid you should neutralize it before washing it away. Whatever cleaning/etching method you use, make sure the floor is completely dry before you attempt to apply the epoxy.

The alternatives to Muriatic acid, mechanical grinder (expensive, dusty, noisy, can be a lot of work) or other less caustic acid. Citric acid will etch like Muratic, only slower. Limeaway and CRL will do the same but may be too expensive for the quantities you will likely need.

Since this is a basement, you don't need the strength of bond you would if it were a garage.

Also, Epoxy floors can be slippery when covered with sawdust. Get the "Shark flakes" non-slip additive

[Phil Thien]

Thanks for all the tips.

Alan, I don't know what the floor looks like under the current vinyl tiles, but I am pretty sure that it has a sealer on it because the other parts of the basement seem too shiny and smooth to not have been sealed.

I imagine the sealer would be another PITA for a homeowner to remove.

I've been struggling with whether I just want to let someone else deal with it. I can get the entire job done (removing current tiles, grinding, commercial grade epoxy) for $4.50/foot.

While the DIY epoxy materials would only cost $.25 to $1/foot, I am concerned about the sealer and the adhesive used for the tiles. I think I'd have to use a lot of chemicals to remove that stuff, whereas a pro outfit would just grind it.

Decisions, decisions.

All I know is I love that red color with the flakes.

[Dale Probst]

You'll love the epoxy, I'd hire it done for that price, it's a lot of work that you could put into something else.
DP

[Alan Schaffter]

I've been struggling with whether I just want to let someone else deal with it. I can get the entire job done (removing current tiles, grinding, commercial grade epoxy) for $4.50/foot.
.

At that price you could lay a floating engineered hardwood floor right over top of what is there now- it would look better than epoxy. It might be a little slippery when sprinkled with sawdust though, but you could always hit it with a buffer and steel wool pad to dull it down.

You didn't say you had and existing tile floor. If it is old, the tiles could have asbestos in them. The tiles may or may not pop up easily but the adhesive (likely the black stuff) will likely be a bear. It comes down to whether you have more or less energy than $. I think you are right about the grinder and if you try to do it yourself you could end up spending a lot of money on a rental grinder and a lot of time and mess. I don't think chemicals will remove the adhesive- muriatic acid is just used for cleaning light grease and etching the concrete not for removing tile adhesive.

[Phil Thien]

At that price you could lay a floating engineered hardwood floor right over top of what is there now- it would look better than epoxy. It might be a little slippery when sprinkled with sawdust though, but you could always hit it with a buffer and steel wool pad to dull it down.

Good point, and I considered it. My primary concern is being in the basement. I've never had a water problem, but with my luck the water problem would come right after I was done w/ the engineered floor.

If I were above grade, I'd do the engineered floor.



You didn't say you had and existing tile floor. If it is old, the tiles could have asbestos in them. The tiles may or may not pop up easily but the adhesive (likely the black stuff) will likely be a bear. It comes down to whether you have more or less energy than $. I think you are right about the grinder and if you try to do it yourself you could end up spending a lot of money on a rental grinder and a lot of time and mess. I don't think chemicals will remove the adhesive- muriatic acid is just used for cleaning light grease and etching the concrete not for removing tile adhesive.

The tiles are 12x12 vinyl. They're late 70's or early 80's affair. Had they extended all the way to the concrete block wall, I'd just keep them and clean them up. I even looked for NOS so I could just fix the border and live with them. No luck.

I've also thought of replacing them w/ a new tile. At $.50 to $1.00/ft for materials, the price is right. Good durability.

I do have a concern w/ the tiles, though: When the floor was poured, they did as good a job as I guess I could expect getting a nice joint between the block wall and the floor, but it isn't perfect. Getting the tiles to hug the wall and look nice might be a challenge.

I suppose I should buy a few tiles and push them up against the wall and see how it looks. It it looks okay (w/o having to scribe individual tiles), then maybe a red tile floor would be okay.

Time for fun w/ the heat gun.

[Alan Schaffter]

If you don't like the gap where the tile meets to block wall you can always use vinyl cove/baseboard. It comes in rolls and you attach it with adhesive. It is a little tacky but we are talking a basement shop are we not?

Years ago, in my previous house, we had roll vinyl installed right over asbestos laden tile in our partially below grade rec room. The installer did a great job- you couldn't see any seams. The only problem would be that it is not as durable as other options and if you dropped a chisel it will cut easily.

[Phil Thien]

It is a little tacky but we are talking a basement shop are we not?

After spending considerable time/effort to remove the hardened Liquid Nails the previous owner used to attach the crappy panelling to the concrete block wall, I'm hesitant to put any more adhesive on the walls.

Second, I've seen pictures of your shop. I didn't think the words "it is just a shop" were in your vocabulary. :p

[Alan Schaffter]

After spending considerable time/effort to remove the hardened Liquid Nails the previous owner used to attach the crappy panelling to the concrete block wall, I'm hesitant to put any more adhesive on the walls.

Second, I've seen pictures of your shop. I didn't think the words "it is just a shop" were in your vocabulary. :p

Well that is what everyone else tried to tell me (I wasn't buying it) :D ;). I have reached a bit of shop burnout though, or at least slowed way down working on my lengthy "to do" list- lots of little details. I keep getting side tracked on other projects, instead of finishing up appearance stuff that adds nothing to working safer, easier, and more enjoyably.

[John Neel]

My basement room that was to become my shop was the previous owner's exercise room. He had installed a red plaid (De gustibus non est disputandum) indoor outdoor carpet. The house is old, built in 1939. When I decided to turn it into a basement shop, I first removed the carpet and found that a plastic backing to the carpet had stuck to the black mastic that had held some sort of tile. Sometimes this was a problem because the solvent I used to dissolve the mastic would not penetrate the plastic. The 12" square tiles had been removed and the carpet had been place directly over the black mastic.

I found a soy bean based product called 'Beanie Doo' that disolved the mastic. I could do about a 2'x3' section of the floor at one time: Apply the Beanie Doo, wait about 2 hours, scrape, repeat. Sometimes repeat several times. It took about a month of several hours work most days. about 1/2 way through the process a friend suggested that I use his floor polisher with a scrubbing pad. That eased the work considerably.

The pores of the old concrete still held some of the mastic. I purchased my epoxy and began the treatment with builder's acid. That removed some more of the mastic. [BTW, I sent sample of the mastic to a lab and it contained no asbestos. This was surprising from what I had read about black mastic] I applied the epoxy and used paint chips supplied by the manufacturer. The manufacturer stated that unless I expected the floor to be wet, the chips alone would be sufficient to stop skidding. I have found that to be true. The application process was simple and quick. The result looks great.

Problems:

Even with the electric scrubber, it is a lot of work. The only good thing is that the constant up and down and kneeling to work on the floor seems to have greatly improved my back problem.

I didn't remove all the mastic from the pores. If I had it to do over again, I would repeat the acid treatment several times, particularly where the mastic seemed to stain the floor. Failing to do this caused additional difficulties with the next problem.

Several sources suggested that taping some plastic over the floor and leaving it for a day or two would tell me if I had a water intrusion problem. I did this and found not a hint of a water problem. My mistake here was that I forgot Atlanta was at the end of a two year drought at that time. The drought has now ended and we have had one of the wettest years on record to say nothing of what the weather people termed a 1000 year rain and several rains that were nearly that much. I have a small water intrusion problem. Water has created little bubbles under the epoxy in several places on the floor. In other places the paint chips have apparently provided a pathway for water to seep up through the epoxy. In the places where mastic was left in the pores, the water brings mastic up through the epoxy and that leaves a brown film on the epoxy. I can remove this by wiping or simply mopping the floor every other week. I usually mop. I am fortunate to have old laundry tubs in the next basement room, so this is fast and easy. Some sources say that the epoxy will eventually just peal off where the bubbles are, but that has not happened yet. It has been 11 months since I finished. The problem is not extensive and if it does peal off, I plan to treat with acid again and repaint those areas.

Since Sawstop had announced they were about to raise their prices. I ordered and took delivery of a Sawstop ICS that had to go in that basement room. I managed to move it around the room by using the plywood sheets that comprised the box the saw was packed in to rest it on and roll it over the mastic. The room also had my 3/4 finished work bench, so I was moving both from one half of the room to the other as I progressed. However, I was very concerned that the acid would etch the table or other parts of the saw. I covered it with a sheet of plastic and there was no damage to anything. When I used the acid, I worked on about 2'x6' rectangles at once. I opened a window and placed a box fan in front of it. I also was able to open the door to the garage on that same level and open a garage door for ventilation. [My basement is only partially below level and the garage is at grade level.]

I had an estimate of $2 - $4 per square foot to have the floor ground. Floor was 330 sq ft. So $660 to $1320 would have saved me much work. However, my back would not have been fixed and that was worth all the work. :) Given my water intrusion problem with the mastic remnants coming through the epoxy I would probably have it ground if I knew then what I know now. Maybe I would just have had the concrete stained rather than epoxied.

Various epoxy formulations can be found at the big box stores. You can also try http://www.epoxy-coat.com/ That site has a video showing the process to apply the epoxy. You can also read a comparison of their epoxy to others. Their color selection is better than what you can get at the big box stores.

I hope this helps.

John Neel

[Phil Thien]

Thanks for all that info, John.

Last night curiosity got the best of me and while I was waiting for some crack sealer to set-up so I could paint (which I did this morning), I took a putty knife to a couple of the tiles and they pop right up without much effort.

The adhesive that was used on my floor was a newer yellowish stuff. I think the same stuff was used for commercial carpeting glue-downs, it is the stuff that gives up easily, not the more flexible stuff they uses these days where you have to cut the carpeting into 4" strips to pull it up.

Armed with this new information I think I can now get the epoxy work done for $3.50/foot (basically they were going to charge $1/foot to remove the tiles). They were already planning on grinding the floor before putting the epoxy down.

But now I'm back to thinking about tile. Those Armstrong solid vinyl tiles are about $.75 per foot. I'm going to get some quotes on having someone else put them down, though. My back and knees aren't going to improve like yours did with more up/down.

[Alan Schaffter]

One other option you might want to cost out that is easy to lay, can be easily pulled up, is easier on your feet than epoxy over concrete, looks great, and can be laid with custom patterns- the interlocking stuff you can buy for garage floors. (solid vs open)

I just did a quick search (Googled: "garage tiles") and the prices ran from a little under $3 sq. ft (less than $2 when on sale) for stuff from Cosco, Sam's Club, and Sears, to over $7 sq. ft. for stuff from specialty stores. The stuff from the discount stores is supposedly made by the same manuf. as
Race Deck sold by specialty stores.