Joe Woodworker Vacuum Veneer Press

[Richard Dragin]

I know a lot of members here have equipment from Joe Woodworker (http://www.joewoodworker.com/) and are familiar with the information on his site. I just ordered a V2+pro system and thought others might be interested in a build along thread. Anyone else who has built one or is in the process feel free to join in and show pictures, otherwise this might be a really short thread! Most report that the actual build only took 2-3 hours.

Joe is in Maryland and I ordered the day of the big snowstorm, my shipment is a little delayed according to UPS. Since I'm eager to get started I went shopping for some of the extra supplies needed for the build. The hardest part to track down was the 3" PVC. I called a few plumbing supply houses and everyone had 20' lengths for $2.20/ft. Home Depot had one piece jammed at the back of the rack and when I asked was told they just found it in the remodel. Since it wasn't in the system they ended up charging me $5. for the whole 20'! So if anyone is in the area and needs some PVC for this project, I have plenty left over.

I thought I had the1/4" NPT tap but it isn't in my set so back to the hardware store one more time.

[Mike Henderson]

I built two from Joe's kits, one with a pump from him and one with a pump I got on eBay. I'll be happy to post pictures if that's what you want - but they're pictures of the completed system and not progress pictures.

Joe has pictures of a bunch of completed systems on his web site if you want some more ideas.

Also, I think Joe recommends 4" schedule 40 pipe, not 3".

Mike

[Attached are pictures of my portable system. I just bought a dolly from the borg and used 1/2" plywood as a frame. If I was to do it over, I'd put the tanks vertical instead of horizontal.]

[David DeCristoforo]

As Mike says, "...Also, I think Joe recommends 4" schedule 40 pipe, not 3"..." But with 3" pipe, you can compensate by using longer sections of pipe for your "tanks". A 4" X 15" section of pipe has a volume of approximately 188.5 cubic inches. A 3" X 26" pipe is approximately 183 cubic inches. But keep in mind that the volume of the tanks is not critical. They are there to provide a "buffer", in effect a way to "store" vacuum which will allow the pump to cycle on and off as needed. Also, with tanks, if you run the pump for a bit to draw the air out of the chambers there is some vacuum available to pull the bag down quicker than it would if you just started the pump after sealing the bag. This can be very helpful in many situations. If you can deal with a larger unit, bigger tanks are better because you can "store" more vacuum which will allow the pump more downtime. Of course, with bigger tanks, you have to run the pump longer initially to draw the air from the tanks. In a perfect world, you would be able to shut the pump down after drawing a vacuum. But in reality, a "perfect" vacuum is not possible and there will always be miniscule leaks that will allow the vacuum to dissipate. So you need the tanks to compensate. Without tanks, you would need to have the pump run continuously to maintain the vacuum.

[Richard Dragin]

Nice system Mike, I knew you'd have something to add to this thread.

I'm building the venturi system and the instructions call for 3". If it turns out to not be enough (the system would cycle more often?) I could always add a third reservoir. I considered a storage tank from HF but I want to keep the unit small for storage.

I've seen some of the examples on Joe's site but it's not the same as the interaction we get here.

[James Baker SD]

Here's mine built in 2006 from a kit from Joe. It's made with 4" pipes. Works pretty well.

James

[Tim Johnson]

I have one of Joe's systems and it has been a very useful addition to my shop. The one alteration I made to the pump plan was to make the carrier a bit oversize to provide some additional protection to the connections on the end of the "Bomb" as my kids call it, the tanks are painted bright red. Those fittings are just threaded into PVC, which so far has held, but in my situation, I can see where a baseball, or speeding bicycle comes through my garage and "detonates the bomb" putting me out of commission. So depending on your situation, a bit of "protection" may be warranted. I used one of the rebuild pumps and sourced all the other parts at the BORG. I use it often and have the UltraMax bags, they make life easy.

(Edit - I really like the pump that James built, I should have been more innovative in my design, it looks like it should provide great protection to the fittings )

[Frank Drew]

I used a vacuum pump all by itself and it worked fine; what's the advantage to this piping reservoir system?

[Quinn McCarthy]

I just finished the V2 premium kit.

I haven't had too much oppertunity to try it yet but managed to try a little veneer job in the bag.

Quinn

[Richard Dragin]

I used a vacuum pump all by itself and it worked fine; what's the advantage to this piping reservoir system?

So you don't have to continuously run your pump. It'll cycle the pump while maintaining vacuum.

Quinn,
What size compressor and bag do you have? That was the big question for me as I felt I was borderline between the +pro and Premium upgrade options. I opted for the +pro and a 4x4 30mil Poly bag. I was torn to spend a little extra and get the 4x8 but space is a big consideration for me. That dinning room table I have in mind will probably not be one piece anyway.

I know many think just get the bigger bag and keep the extra rolled up.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Here is a photo of my pump built with stuff from Joe. If I where to do it over, I'd make the top tube a bit smaller diameter, so it's easier to carry. It's 2" now.

Frank, the tanks work like an air compressor tank does. They make the pump cycle a lot less often. The small tank (handle) on mine is an unloader tank. It allows the pump to start with no vacuum on it, which is required on that Gast pump.

http://rozmiarek.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Steves-Woodshop/IMG0210/486943155_csfM6-L.jpg (http://rozmiarek.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Steves-Woodshop/7096079_nhtXn#486943155_csfM6-A-LB)

[Richard Dragin]

Clean set up Steve. I bet a guy could make a nice Sleigh Bed with that. How many PM's has that picture (of your bed) generated?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Clean set up Steve. I bet a guy could make a nice Sleigh Bed with that. How many PM's has that picture (of your bed) generated?

LOL! I've had a few PM's about it. :D Kind of fun to have one of those projects floating around that gets questions and comments. Lets me relive the fun of building it. I've been toying with the idea of a bigger version one of these days...

[Richard Dragin]

Snowmageddon '10 delayed the shipment but it finally arrived. Here's everything I ordered...4x4 30mm poly bag, Joe's Veneer starter kit, Vac Pro+ kit.....

This is a venturi system which runs off of compressed air instead of a pump. I have a 5 cfm at 90 psi compressor so this was the system that spec'd out for me.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j147/DraginRichard/Veneer%20Vac/IMG_0236.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j147/DraginRichard/Veneer%20Vac/IMG_0243.jpg


Here is the manifold section all tightened up.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j147/DraginRichard/Veneer%20Vac/IMG_0249.jpg



Here it is in position relative to the reservoirs. I used primer with the PVC glue, I used to repair pools for a living and the primer makes a difference. I made them a tad longer than the instructions called for.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j147/DraginRichard/Veneer%20Vac/IMG_0269.jpg

Here is the top with everything mounted and just the wiring to go. On the right is the venturi which is the heart of the system. Attached to the venturi is the MAC valve which electronically controls the air from the compressor. The black thing in the center is the Vacuum switch which controls the MAC valve.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j147/DraginRichard/Veneer%20Vac/IMG_0270.jpg

All done! I added some rubber feet on the bottom but over all it's just like the instructions called for. I didn't see any reason to reinvent the wheel. I just wanna do some veneering.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j147/DraginRichard/Veneer%20Vac/IMG_0278.jpg

I tested the system (without the bag) and here is the gauge after 5 minutes.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j147/DraginRichard/Veneer%20Vac/IMG_0277.jpg

An easy fun project and having built it I understand how it works a lot better. The only variation from the plans to the kit was the plans call for soldering and the kit comes with crimp connectors, actually an improvement. Tomorrow I'll hook up the bag to test the whole system.

So far I'm very pleased with everything but the real test is when I start the actual veneering. Other than the delay caused by the snow dealing with Joe has been as easy as it should be.

[peter kolb]

I am having trouble logging into his site.
He is requesting a unsecured connection for
my user name and password.
I do not know what tnat means.
Thank you for your help Peter

[Richard Dragin]

You should send him an e-mail, he'll respond within a day. You don't have to log in to view the site, only for ordering.

[Mike Henderson]

I am having trouble logging into his site.
He is requesting a unsecured connection for
my user name and password.
I do not know what tnat means.
Thank you for your help Peter
Send Joe and e-mail. His address is on his site. He can help you better than anyone here.

Mike

[Wayne Rudiger]

There must have been something wrong with the site last night - even the "contact Joe" link required a login; there was no place accessible that showed his e-mail.

All better today!

[Peter Quinn]

Nice build Richard. I just finished building a V2 premium set up myself. I deviated from the script by using a 3 gal air tank as the reservoir, I built the whole thing into a wooden box to protect the innards from any shop hazards, and I used a pilot switch with "on" indicator light which showed up a lot in photos of other builds in the gallery on Joe's site. I haven't bought a bag yet, thats next pay period. I'm saving for a 4X8 30Mil poly bag and plan to experiment with some shop made bags until then. Sorry no pics yet of my frankenpress.

I exchanged a few emails with Joe and he is a very personable fellow. I was quite surprised to get a personalized email thanking me for my purchase and encouraging me to write with any questions. I found his directions very logical and well written, and I agree with your comments that there is great value in the self build in terms of learning how the system functions.

I have some air dried spalted apple wood that is crying out to become veneer. I have a vision of a cabinet made from walnut and apple. Perhaps i can call it "a study in fruits and nuts"

Enjoy your press!

[Richard Dragin]

Peter, We need pictures.

I'm going to pick up some melamine and make a platen or two. I don't know if a top platen is needed for flat panels or not although I do have some breather mesh. What have others found is the easiest/ best way to do flat panels?

I'm also going to get some 1/4" MDF and try my set up out this weekend.

[Richard Dragin]

And here is the whole shootin match:


http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j147/DraginRichard/Veneer%20Vac/IMG_0289.jpg

I picked up a full sheet of 3/4 Melamine and cut it in half. I used a router to round over all the edges and put blue tape on the edges of the piece that goes in the bag. I used the other piece on top of my table saw to protect the bag since I don't have a 4x4 table or much shop space. I got some breather mesh instead of a top platen and didn't need to cut airways in the bottom platen either. It seems to work well.

I tested everything and had a couple of sheets seamed up so I gave it a go.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j147/DraginRichard/Veneer%20Vac/IMG_0290.jpg

You can see in the picture the Zebrawood is bleeding through what seems to be a lot. I used Better Bond glue and since this is my first panel I may have used to much glue, I don't know. I used less on the other side with some Ash so I'll see how that comes out.

I usually leave glue ups clamped overnight but I have heard that one hour is enough in the vac press? Is there an issue with leaving it in longer other than leaving the vac on? Hopefully the dried glue will scrape off easily enough.

The system has been on for an hour and cycles every five or ten minutes for about three seconds. Not very loud and my compressor hasn't dropped either. I think the system is engineered pretty well and it sucked the bag down in under 30 seconds.

I think I'll wait till the bleed through turns a little darker before I take it out of the bag.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I may have used to much glue..."

I use a fine knap paint roller to apply glue. This can be a "problem" with vacuum pressing because the vacuum will literally suck the glue through the pores of the wood. So this is a situation where less is better. Open pored woods are particularly susceptible to this. On a warm day I leave panels in the press for two hours. Less on hot days, longer on colder days. The glue will grab but when you pull your panels, they will be moist because there is no air in the bag so moisture cannot evaporate.

[Richard Dragin]

I see some trial and error in my future, fortunately I have an ample supply of veneer to experiment with.

[Peter Quinn]

Richard, I have no actual experience with veneering as I am just getting into it myself, but I am reading that unibond 800 may solve some of the bleed through problems, and that there is a sealer that can be applied as well for burls and other bleed through prone woods. The claim is that unibond is thicker than most other urea glues and is not mixed with water, so warping of thin substrates isn't a problem as no water is introduced.

Anyone have experience with unibond? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[David DeCristoforo]

"I have a vision of a cabinet made from walnut and apple. Perhaps i can call it "a study in fruits and nuts" "

The California cabinet? Maybe you could finish it with shellac "flakes"?

[Christopher Stahl]

Sorry, I haven't used a vacuum system for veneering. I may be missing something here, but doesn't the glue stick to your poly bag when it bleeds through?

[Mike Henderson]

Richard, I have no actual experience with veneering as I am just getting into it myself, but I am reading that unibond 800 may solve some of the bleed through problems, and that there is a sealer that can be applied as well for burls and other bleed through prone woods. The claim is that unibond is thicker than most other urea glues and is not mixed with water, so warping of thin substrates isn't a problem as no water is introduced.

Anyone have experience with unibond? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Rotary cut veneers, such as curly bubinga, tend to expand quite a bit when water hits them so a non-water based glue is often needed for them. I think the UniBond people make an additive for UniBond that thickens it and reduces the bleed through. I'm going from memory here but I think I'm right about that additive.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Sorry, I haven't used a vacuum system for veneering. I may be missing something here, but doesn't the glue stick to your poly bag when it bleeds through?
Usually, people use a platen on the bottom (made from 1/4" melamine, maybe) and a caul on top. But you put a layer of plastic between the veneer and the caul, and maybe between the platen and the veneer.

Some people do not use a caul for certain veneering applications and the glue does not stick to the bag. If you get glue bleed through the glue peels right off of the bag.

But if you get a lot of bleed through, you have other problems with your veneer, especially in finishing it.

I will comment that for most people, a veneer bag is sooooo much better than any other method of pressing a panel. It's like a revelation the first time you use one.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

"...I may have used to much glue..."

I use a fine knap paint roller to apply glue. This can be a "problem" with vacuum pressing because the vacuum will literally suck the glue through the pores of the wood. So this is a situation where less is better. Open pored woods are particularly susceptible to this. On a warm day I leave panels in the press for two hours. Less on hot days, longer on colder days. The glue will grab but when you pull your panels, they will be moist because there is no air in the bag so moisture cannot evaporate.
I'll just comment that moisture will be pulled out of the panel when the panel is in a vacuum bag. The moisture will "evaporate" into the partial vacuum.

In a vacuum (or actually, in an area of much lower atmospheric pressure, since the vacuum in a bag is only partial), it's actually easier for moisture to evaporate than in air at sea level atmospheric pressure.

If you were to introduce some water into the vacuum of outer space, for example, it would immediately vaporize (it would flash to vapor). In a vacuum bag, the water vapor is removed from the bag by the vacuum pump.

Mike

[This is also the reason why water boils at a lower temperature in Denver than in New Orleans.]

[Richard Dragin]

The glue is curing so I'll leave it in a few more hours and see. According to Joe's website the glue should scrape off easily and that's a benefit of the mesh. I'm guessing it's a question of how much scraping to get a good finish is acceptable for me.

Mike, What combination of platens do you use?

[Steve Walls]

I haven't tried it but the Unibond Blocker (bottom of the page) is supposed to help with bleed through, http://www.vacupress.com/veneerglue.htm

[Richard Dragin]

I left the panel in the press all night and the visible glue cured. The mesh popped off easily but had some glue stuck in it that I had to work out. The panel came clean with a card scraper after about ten minutes. I think a little less glue on the next one might help but the zebra is just porous and the scraping just means less sanding if any.


A question for the guys with pumps. Does the pump turn on for every cycle of the vac switch to maintain pressure? I get a 3 second whoosh every five or ten minutes (the interval seemed longer the longer the panel was in the bag). If that pump kept coming on it would bother me and I can't imagine dealing with a continuous run system.

What's the advantage of a pump system other than not needing a compressor?

[Frank Drew]

Richard,

In my experience with a vacuum pump without reservoir tanks, the pump will cycle occasionally to maintain a vacuum, the frequency will depending on the integrity of the bag and lines (any leaks?) and whether or not you've incorporated a valve in the line from the vacuum system, since most vacuum pumps aren't designed to maintain a vacuum all by themselves (even assuming no vacuum loss elsewhere).

I had a fairly low tech system: A very good, but used, pump, everything else home made or salvaged. For a typical flat pressing, where I might leave the panel in the bag for maybe an hour and a half, I might have to bump the vacuum up a few times for a minute or so each time once the original vacuum has been established; not at all annoying, in other words.