Educating customers about photo quality

[Scott Shepherd]

There is a reason we don't do photos on our laser. One word. Customers. Not a lack of customers, but the lack of the ability for the customer to comprehend what's needed. I wonder if most out there experience the same thing. I had a person call and come into the shop and wanted a photo engraved on an item. The item was 12" x 12". They explain to me they are photoshop savvy and will prepare the photo as needed. I explain I need a large photo, and it'll have to be 300DPI at that size for best results. They talked about it being no problem, said they have the plugin's for that. We have an extensive discussion about DPI and they seemed to really "get it". They tell me they will email me the photo.

I get the email. 450px tall at 96DPI, 48k file.

I give up :)

[Lee DeRaud]

Hardly a new problem.

I worked in a camera store about 40 years ago. The most common question was, "How come this enlargement is so fuzzy?", usually in reference to an 11x14 print from an Instamatic negative.

[Scott Challoner]

I'm hoping to get away from them completely. They're just too much messing around for the money. I think the only way to do well with photos is to take the pictures yourself, or offer your services to professional photographers that know what they're doing. Last year I got a photo of a white Lhasa Apso sitting on a snowbank. I also got one of a guy and his deer, but the photographer stood about 40 yards away.
I'm sure my skills aren't the best, but I can't see how people do these for $20 and make money.

[Alexander Stein]

best one I have received (last year) was a scratched up 1996 "Glamor Shots" photo. The funny thing is that it was a sample! it even had the glamor shots logo branded all over the photo!!

[matt heinzel]

Yeah, it's funny how they just don't get it. It is equally funny that some people don't care what the quality is in the end. Not that they are photo's but there have been plenty of times when a customer sends a bad logo, and they say to print it even though we tell them it won't turn out good. Then they get it and love it? I hate sending out bad work, but sometimes they just make you. Funny when their name is all nice and crisp and their logo is a horrible mess. You can never tell what a customer deems as quality work.

[Mark Ross]

We get it from high volume repeat customers, that want us to just scan in their logo from a sticker. Ugh...literally it takes 4 pieces of software to get it in a format for the laser. Inkscape, Photoshop, Corel Photpaint and finally Corel Draw.

Inkscape seems to do the best for our use to get Line Art SVG with the least amount of diddling and fiddling.

the guy with the deer from 40 feet away, I wonder if you could crop what you needed and use that free software to blow it up...

[Martin Boekers]

They explain to me they are photoshop savvy and will prepare the photo as needed. I give up :)

The only thing worse than one who says they know Photoshop and can do it, is one that says they have a niece or nephew that knows photoshop and can do it.:D


Marty

[Andrea Weissenseel]

I don't do them too often, and I don't like them either. But I always tell them that I want the original photos from the camera. The printed photos I got so far worked out fine.

@Mark - I scan them in Photoshop, prepare them with the "Gold method, and then go directly to Corel or send them directly from Photoshop to the laser (if I use a ready piece of material).

Andrea

[Niklas Bjornestal]

There is a reason we don't do photos on our laser. One word. Customers. Not a lack of customers, but the lack of the ability for the customer to comprehend what's needed. I wonder if most out there experience the same thing. I had a person call and come into the shop and wanted a photo engraved on an item. The item was 12" x 12". They explain to me they are photoshop savvy and will prepare the photo as needed. I explain I need a large photo, and it'll have to be 300DPI at that size for best results. They talked about it being no problem, said they have the plugin's for that. We have an extensive discussion about DPI and they seemed to really "get it". They tell me they will email me the photo.

I get the email. 450px tall at 96DPI, 48k file.

I give up :)
Did they send the email with hotmail? If so they might have included the picture insteadt of attach it as a file, hotmail (and probably other webmail) resize pictures :(

[Scott Shepherd]

Not from hotmail. This person is very computer and graphics savvy. I'm glad we don't do photos either. I'll take one every once in a while, but if people that are into Photoshop can't send the right files, I'm convinced the average person can't send the right files. I recently had a job with a logo in it, I sent specific instructions on what we needed to do the job. It could not have been any more specific. In there, it said "We do not accept Word documents". What do they send? Word document. I emailed them back and pointed to the part in our document that said "Word documents are not acceptable" and explained what I needed again. They said "Got it, sorry about that". Send me another file. Word document. I just redrew it from scratch and added it to their bill.

[Eric Edgette]

One of the photo services I offer is on black anodized aluminum. Of course for samples I'm going to show the best work I can. So I used a raw picture from a hired professional photographer to use on my sample piece which was 12x12. It turned out so well, when people see it in person they think it's a black and white photo. Needless to say, as soon as someone wants the same thing done they think their 72dpi thumbnail will get the same results.

I do have to agree with Matt though, I think the work is sub par even after explaining how it works and the customers love it anyways. I couldn't imagine what they'd think if they gave me real photos to use.

[Bill Cunningham]

This is a general text grab of what I have on my website.. The big problem, is even if you write it down, rare is the person that will read it before sending you the same crappy .jpg they sent you the first time..
--------------------------------------------------

Choosing your photograph is the most important step. Not all photographs can be laser etched, or engraved. Photographs that are to be etched with a laser, require 'contrast'. In other words, once converted to black and white (the laser does not etch in colour) there must be 'visible' difference between colours. Dark coloured clothing, seen against a dark coloured background may be perfectly obvious in a colour photograph, but once converted, the black and white (black etches, white does not) the difference will not be so obvious. A dark blue suit against a dark brown background, 'may' result in a 'head' floating in a dark background. For example see the samples below
http://www.technisoft1.com/images/Square.jpg <Before converting http://www.technisoft1.com/images/squareEng.jpg< After Engraving
As you can see, there is not much difference between the colours after etching.
Your photograph must also be 'high resolution'. We can scan a 'glossy' photograph, however, photographs printed on textured stock, no matter how fine the texture, may not give satisfactory results. The textured areas have a tendency to cast light back at the scanner, resulting in spots, fuzziness, or banding when etched. Digital photographs are acceptable providing they are at least 2000 x 1500 pixels or the highest resolution obtainable from a minimum 3 mega pixel camera. .JPGs 'can' be used, but please keep in mind that EVERY TIME you crop, manipulate, or change a .jpg AND save it as a .jpg it will get worse and worse with every load and re-save, until it gets to the point, where is pretty well unusable for anything but the web..
Here is a great link regarding .jpgs. (http://www.unleash.com/articles/eviljpeg/index.asp)
As a final step, we will evaluate your photograph as to suitability for engraving before we use it.

[John McClanahan]

My day job is in the commercial printing industry. Same thing happens here. Call the customer to tell them the photo is lo-res. Next thing you know, your giving them a lesson in Photoshop. Then they say "looks OK to me, go with it". Then when they see the printed piece, They complain about the "poor printing quality" and want a reprint at no charge!

John

[Rodne Gold]

We just make it easy - we tell the customer we can only print it small if they cant send a better pic. Most onesie customers are thrilled we got it on their award or plaque or whatever.

[Tim Morton]

How many times have you said to the customer...Please do not send me images you got from a webpage...only to get a logo in gif of jpg direct from someones website....

Well it looks good on my screen they say...:eek:

[Frank Corker]

Its definitely an uphill battle. I'm with Andrea I ask them to send me the original directly from the camera, not adjusted but they can send me a cropped version that they were thinking about. I just hate it when they send the photo saying my nephew fixed it in photoshop and it's basically a really bad smudged piece of junk.

[Liesl Dexheimer]

Ugh don't even get me started on that topic, lol! As far as photo engraving is concerned...we purchased Photograv 1 yr ago & I have gotten one job out of it so far and I have one pending. I was told by a professional in our industry that if the photo requires extensive editing to charge roughly $100 per hr to edit it. I don't know who around here will be willing to pay that price (maybe in a large city but not in a rural town).

As far as logos are concerned, it definitely is hard to get customers to understand that you can't just pull a logo off of a website. I don't know how many times I have had to go tell them it's low resolution & they look at you like you are making this rule up. I just had a customer do this exact same thing a month ago, they took an image and saved it as a fake eps. Ugh!

Just a tip for you engravers out there (you may already know this or have figured it out), sometimes if the company is large enough, check their website for press releases or a brand identity guideline that you can download. For that particular customer I was talking about previously, I was able to find a press release in pdf format with their logo which was in vector format. I was so happy I was able to use that instead of a fuzzy jpg.

[Doug Griffith]

I'm also amazed at how I can look at printed material by a company or even their website and see that their logo was created as a vector. When asked for it, they only have a bitmap or a printed letterhead or even a business card. Nobody knows where the original is. When this happens, I start asking questions like "who designed it", "who prints for them", "who built their website". I get email addresses and shoot off a request with technical specs from someone who knows what they are asking for, which is me. This has panned out quite a few times.

[Niklas Bjornestal]

I'm also amazed at how I can look at printed material by a company or even their website and see that their logo was created as a vector. When asked for it, they only have a bitmap or a printed letterhead or even a business card. Nobody knows where the original is. When this happens, I start asking questions like "who designed it", "who prints for them", "who built their website". I get email addresses and shoot off a request with technical specs from someone who knows what they are asking for, which is me. This has panned out quite a few times.
One reason for this (for smaller companies at least) is that many designers charge alot more to hand out the vector files.

[Doug Griffith]

One reason for this (for smaller companies at least) is that many designers charge alot more to hand out the vector files.

I know. I've done many logos for hire and if I was ever in the need to outsource and was told I had to pay more for the vector, I'd tell the designer to take a hike. A bitmap is a one trick pony.

[Bill Cunningham]

'Then' there's the customer that tells you "sure, no problem, I know exactly what you need, and I can send you a .cdr file" When you open the file, there's the same crappy web.jpg embedded in a .cdr file :rolleyes:..
Ya just can't win sometimes...

[Stephen Beckham]

MY pet peeve being around the Military is their self-inflated abilities to make ANYTHING in Microsoft Power Point and want me to reproduce it just like it comes in.

Not only does it chop down the photo quality, the Power-Point-Rangers usually got a one-hour class in some leadership training course and can tell me anything I want to know about Microsoft


I always request a copy of all of the original art imported to Power Point along with their version. What does that mean to them, "I'll just export the picture from the Power Point slide for you" like I couldn't do that... Geesh...:eek:

[Bill Cunningham]

That must be a universal 'military thing' :p Most of the stuff they send me, is a power point thingy.. Once in a while I'll also get a crappy .jpg that wins out over the powerpoint thingy..ha..:D Or some piece of crud embedded in a .doc file, which might even be worse..:rolleyes:

[Bruce Clumpner]

Sometimes I kick-back a PDF as proof for the customer to sign off. If you create it at full size, and have them print it out to sign, the get to see how good or bad the photo they provided reproduces.

[Julie Nickerson]

I do sublimation printing. I have customers who will email low res photos and want the photo full size on a license plate. I explain to them that it's impossible to put a small image on a 6x9 plate and it being a good quality image. Like others have said, if it looks fine on their monitor they think it will look fine in print.
This past Christmas I had one lady get her daughter to email an image to me for a full size license plate. It was 96 dpi. I emailed the daughter back and said that I wanted the image to be at least 240 dpi. I also explained that the image was in portrait and it should have been taken in landscape and will not cover the full plate without it being totally distorted. I recommended putting a frame around the photo and add kids names etc. Nope, wanted the full image on the plate. I told them couldn't be done with the image size that was provided. So, the daughter drops off the image printed at 8 x 10 on a plain sheet of paper, which looked horrible, and wanted me to scan it and change the resolution to what I needed. Again, explained that I couldn't do it. I ended up turning down the job. They went down the street to a printing place that does vinyl and has the plate done there. The image is small and has a frame around it as well as the kids name. The customer is a friend of my mother's who in turn got upset with me because I refused to do the plate.
I had a couple of other people who emailed photos from a paid photographer for license plates. The images weren't the greatest, color cast issues. I offered to fix up the photos but would have to charge for that. Was told nope, print the photos onto the plates as is. So I did. They weren't too happy with the quality on the plate but they took them just the same.
I get so discouraged with customers that I'm thinking on not doing sublimation printing at all.
I'm sorry that this is so long. I channel Edith Bunker :)

[Dan Hintz]

"Oh Archie..."

Customers often convince themselves they know what they're talking about (guilty of it myself from time to time), even when they don't. Not much you can do but nudge them in the proper direction and hope they move. I feel for you...

[Bill Cunningham]

If 'YOU' think that it's going to look like crap when done, refuse to do it... Remember, when it does come out looking like crap, someone is sure to ask them who did it, and they will just take it for granted that the cruddy work is the fault of the person who made the piece, and that's YOU.. After all, it looked great on the computer screen when they sent it to you!

[Julie Nickerson]

"Oh Archie..."

Customers often convince themselves they know what they're talking about (guilty of it myself from time to time), even when they don't. Not much you can do but nudge them in the proper direction and hope they move. I feel for you...

Yeah I'm guilty of this to. Some understand, some don't.

[John Daugherty]

Not to hijack this thread, but since you all are here I'll ask. I've got a picture I'd like to get engraved for my wife on marble of the kids. It's in a tiff format and the size is 2288 x 2915 pix 7.627 x 9.717 (I guess that's 8 x 10) 300 pix per inch. The image is black and white. Would this size work?

[Darren Null]

If you want an 8x10 or smaller, then yes. Assuming the image is sharp, it could maybe go to double that size without too much of a quality hit on a laser. You can get away with a bit more on lasers because you're dropping all the colour information and dithering the image so you can sort of spread the pixels out a bit. That size image is big enough to work with; assuming a good quality photo with the subject covering a significant proportion of the image.

As a general rule of thumb, 1:1 size at 300 dpi is enough to get a result from either print or laser.

[Dan Hintz]

To add to Darren's post...

With all of the wonderful image processing tool out these days, 2:1 is often not a problem, and 4:1 is often pretty easy given the right image...