FYI: Chisels on Ebay

[Ralph Barhorst]

I just finished reading Bob Smalser's lesson on "The Haunched and Drawbored Mortise and Tenon Part 1". This is a very interesting post. However, I don't have the heavy chisels that Bob has so I thought that I would look for some on Ebay. There are currently a lot of chisels available at:

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQgotopageZ1QQsassZgregQ5foreoQQsorecordsperpag eZ50QQsosortorderZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1

[Chris Padilla]

Ralph,

I heard through the grapevine that LN will be coming out a very nice set of mortising chisels. Rather than search eBay for weeks on end, I think I will plunk down some pretty pennies for a set. A friend of mine has a prototype from LN and it is a very nice, beefy piece of metal that should last about forever and become an "old" tool one of these days.

[Mike Weaver]

Ralph,

I heard through the grapevine that LN will be coming out a very nice set of mortising chisels. Rather than search eBay for weeks on end, I think I will plunk down some pretty pennies for a set. A friend of mine has a prototype from LN and it is a very nice, beefy piece of metal that should last about forever and become an "old" tool one of these days.


Chris,
I may be hijacking this thread, but one of the recent WW mags had a chisel review and if I recall correctly, the Ashley Iiles chisels fared rather well.

That's not to say the LN ones won't be nice, but if A.I. are just as good, but cheaper, then paying for that [green/black tool tailed brand] habit you have would be a bit easier. :)
(in the old days when I read the oldtools list, the A.I. chisels were well regarded).

Anyway, I'm an old tool junkie and have many chisels to clean up.
Some might end up here for sale some day... :D

-Mike

[Chris Padilla]

Mike,

I've heard the opposite about the A.I. chisels. I got a little bit of a deal for my LN mortising chisels and decided to go for it. I should have them next week...I'll post a gloat, of course. :)

[Mike Weaver]

Mike,

I've heard the opposite about the A.I. chisels. I got a little bit of a deal for my LN mortising chisels and decided to go for it. I should have them next week...I'll post a gloat, of course. :)

Chris,
Perhaps in my scanning the article I read the results backwards?

Dunno, but the LN ones are certainly gloatable!
(remember pics for Tyler though ;)

-Mike

[Bob Smalser]

Just my personal opinion, but I'm not a big fan of A2 steel...and I'm hardly alone:




Bob, several times I’ve seen you mention that old chisels are better than the modern Japanese ones. And you’re not the only one. I also notice that the “best” Japanese chisels (or at least the most expensive ones) use century old or older scrap iron for the top lamination and that in the high medium price range the makers also claim to use steels for the cutting portion similar to pre-industrial steels.

But modern chisel makers seem to be going more and more towards modern materials like A2 that are expensive, and marginally more difficult to grind and heat treat.

I wonder then if you would expand on what properties you and others find in old steel that you don’t find in new, and why modern manufacturers don’t gravitate towards similar compositions. I could understand it if it simply were marketing, but I’m certain there must a lot of performance pressure put on modern makers by all of us folks doing quasi scientific “comparisons” on the weekends….



Mostly because the older cast, carbon steel simply takes a much better edge than harder steels....and even your Ron Hock agrees. Not slightly better....much better.

It's best seen on the lathe. No comparison at all between one of my hand-honed cast steel gouges or skews converted from old socket chisels to my freshly-ground Sorby HSS tools. The old steel wins hand down, remains sharp just as long...and doesn't take any longer to touch up on the stones than to regrind my Sorby's.

I also believe the older carbon steels perform better and longer than modern carbon steels because they were forged more akin to the way Barr Quarton does it today in his 200-dollar chisels than in a modern factory...but I'm a user, not a metallurgist, and this is very subjective.

The key, of course, is sharpening. I touch my tools up on the stones generally every day and I've had enuf practice at it that hand honing takes no longer than regrinding...and my cast lathe tools will last decades longer than with the periodic regrinding of my HSS lathe tools.

I have some A2 irons...they are fine...but they do take a bit longer to hone and they don't take as good an edge as my carbon irons. That's OK by me in a plane I'm reluctant to lose my adjustment on to sharpen...but it's a showstopper for me in a chisel, where the stones are always handy on the bench and I want to also be able to pare a few microns of end grain in addition to heavy mortise blows.

The laminated Japanese chisels are fine...but the brittleness of that hard edge is a liability in places where it may get knocked off the boat and chip....when it chips, it chips big, requiring a lot of grinding. If I were to own another set, I'd put octagon handles on them so they don't roll.

No argument about the steel my Japanese set was made of...but just compare the size, depth and cleanliness of the chips between them and the millwright chisels in hard pounding...and that Doug Fir in the top pic is a heck of a lot softer than that hard maple:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3442941/42268006.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70921612.jpg

That's a 30-50% improvement over the Japanese...

...and even the Japanese will likely make the new A2 L/N Sorby sash chisel copies look anemic. Why they copied the Marples/Sorby design is beyond me...even the heavier German mortise chisels like MHG would be a better choice, IMO.

[Manny Hernandez]

The LN A2 mortise chisels are hardly anemic. I've had a prototype 1/2" since May and find it works as good or better than my midrange Japanese chisels. Just as a reference, I consider midrange Japanese chisels to be in the $75 - $150 range.
I was skeptical when I first saw the LN chisel. I also thought they would be anemic. I couldn't believe Thomas put that handle on it. I thought it would split in a second. I use a 20 ounce Japanese mortising hammer. He told me to show no mercy when evaluating it. The hornbeam handles are virtually indestructible. The chisels came sharp and ready to use, however, me being me, I always take new tools to my Shaptons for honing. The backs were flatter to begin with than any new or used chisel I've ever sharpened. Quick hone on the 2000 then 5000 and ready to go. I've since taken them through the entire process 1000, 2000 then 5000 just because. It only takes a few minutes. The Shaptons cut fast. A2 is not difficult to sharpen and doesn't take long with the Shaptons. The only steel I've ever had trouble with is the Holtey S52. I gave up on those, they take too long to sharpen. I'd rather be woodworking than spending a lot of time sharpening.
So far, I've used the mortise chisel in Mahogany, Madrone and hard Maple. I've also used it in pine, Port Orford and Yellow Cedar, but those softwoods are easy to mortise with any chisel.
Mr. Smalser, please accept this bit of constructive criticism; Looking at the pic of the Japanese chisel and mortise, it looks like the Japanese chisel is not properly sharpened. With a properly sharpened Japanese chisel you should be getting cuts like in your second picture. Also, I've enjoyed reading your articles. I wish I had that type of tutorial when I was starting out in handtools. Would have made it much easier to get started.

[Bob Smalser]

Good eyes, Manny....but if you look hard you can see the fir is sopping wet. The chisel was plenty sharp.

Did that one in a hurry one lunch break to answer a kid's question:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=5918&highlight=chopping+mortises+quick+tutorial