Recommend me a miter saw! (opinions on Milwaukee 6955-20?)

[Valentine Azbelle]

I am new to both this forum and woodworking. I need to cut a bunch (like thousands) of 2x2 blocks of various lengths (from 1" to 12"). At first I thought I'd buy some 2x2's and cut them with a friends DeWalt. To my utter disappointment it turned out that the 2x2's are not only crooked (which I expected to a degree) but also not exactly square. So I decided to buy my own mider saw and cut more or less perfectly straight and square blocks out of 4"x6"x12" pieces of lumber (or whatever 4" lumber I can find cheap). I'd like some opinions on what would be good for this kind of thing. I need the ability to cut 4" vertically, 12" across, and the cuts need to be precise 90 degrees (the texture isn't as important but smooth would be nice of course).

I have read a bunch of reviews and so far settled on Milwaukee 6955-20 12" slider. Anybody has any input on my choice? Suggestions? Tips? Thanks.

[Van Huskey]

I have the Milwaukee picked it up during the HD $299 clearance and it is a solid saw. For full price I would consider the Bosch as well and if you have the cash the Festool Kapex would be even better. I am very happy with the Milwaukee and it has proven to be about as accurate as you would expect a 12" slider to be.

[Valentine Azbelle]

I have the Milwaukee picked it up during the HD $299 clearance and it is a solid saw. For full price I would consider the Bosch as well and if you have the cash the Festool Kapex would be even better. I am very happy with the Milwaukee and it has proven to be about as accurate as you would expect a 12" slider to be.

Thanks for your reply. Yeah, I read about that $299 sale. I didn't need it then. Missed it. :( Now can probably pick it up for around $500. Is it worth it? Actually the price itself isn't that important (well, the Kapex is an exception :rolleyes:). What I am interested in is whether the Milwaukee 6955-20 cuts straight, makes perfect 90 degree angles and doesn't need frequent adjustments.

Looked at the Kapex. Nice. But a bit too much for a first saw, isn't it? Even the Milwaukee (or Bocsh, Makita, DeWalt) 12" slider is kinda expensive... Originally I was going to get a $120 10" Hitachi. :) But after a lot of thought I realized I needed a saw that would cut across 12" and a slider looked like a way to go. Once I made my peace with the "over $400" level (haven't told the girlfriend yet - bracing myself for a fight) Milwaukee was the only saw that didn't have any real negative feedback. On the other hand there isn't much feedback on it at all. I'm hoping to get a clearer picture here.

[keith micinski]

I made a zero clearance insert, added sand paper to my fence and my Milwaukee is one of the best purchases I have ever made. It came from the factory set up perfect, needing no adjustment. As far as everyone talking about flex in the saw I have no problems with it all but I am careful and take my time. I would do this with any mitre saw though because you can flex any saw enough if you have a heavy hand. My only complaint is that I have to buy an attachment to hook up dust collection.

[Greg Wittler]

I Might have it wrong, but it sound like you are planning on rippping a 2"x6" board 12" long into 3 2"x2"x12" long(or less). I don't think a Miter saw would be the best tool as it would be hard to get a accurate rip with a minimal amount of material against the fence. I think you would be better off with a Band saw or table saw.

[keith micinski]

Oh, one other thing, the lights on the saw are really nice but I have been hearing about an LED light on the Dewalt's that you use instead of a laser and it is supposed to be really nice. I wish the Milwaukee had this option also.

[Van Huskey]

I Might have it wrong, but it sound like you are planning on rippping a 2"x6" board 12" long into 3 2"x2"x12" long(or less). I don't think a Miter saw would be the best tool as it would be hard to get a accurate rip with a minimal amount of material against the fence. I think you would be better off with a Band saw or table saw.


That is an EXCELLENT point maybe he could describe the cuts he plans to make more completely.

[Valentine Azbelle]

I Might have it wrong, but it sound like you are planning on rippping a 2"x6" board 12" long into 3 2"x2"x12" long(or less).

Yes, that's almost right. I am planning on ripping 4x6x12 into 6 2x2 pieces. Or rather 1.5" x 1.5" to be precise. I don't know if I will get 6 out of 4x6 but that's irrelevant at this point.


I don't think a Miter saw would be the best tool as it would be hard to get a accurate rip with a minimal amount of material against the fence. I think you would be better off with a Band saw or table saw.

The problem I see with a table saw is if the wood that I'm ripping is bent, since I'm moving the wood against the blade and the fence (not moving the blade against the wood) the lumber will follow the curvature of the original piece against the fence. I haven't tried this and I may be wrong (did I mention I'm new to this?). I don't even know what a band saw is. Doesn't 2x4 (which will be the smallest piece to be cut) have enough area to be pressed against the fence to get a solid 90 degree angle? When I was using my friend's DeWalt miter saw cutting 2x2 lumber it seemed like if you make one edge perfectly straight and then press it against the fence you get a perfect perpendicular to the fence. Is that wrong?

[Valentine Azbelle]

That is an EXCELLENT point maybe he could describe the cuts he plans to make more completely.

To give you a little more detail (without boring you to death with unnecessary specifics) I am building diffusors for my studio. Something that looks like this:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/bass-traps-acoustic-panels-foam-etc/112332d1235905743-diy-diffusors-max-20090331_ge_diffusor_05.jpg

In order for the blocks to fit well they need to be square - something I learned from suffering through 8 hours of trying to fit blocks made from furring channel. I asked a lumber yard if they would rip wood for me to my specs and they said they can't guarantee it will be straight. (Also I am pretty sure they won't put too much effort into making sure the blocks are exactly 1.5" x 1.5"). All I care about is the blocks must be straight with all angles at 90 degrees and square (with no curve in the walls). I realize that ripping 8' long strips will cause the wood to bend. But ripping a 1' block (or even shorter) should be OK (I think). That's why I thought I'd get 4x6 (or 4x8, 4x10, etc. - the wider the better) and rip my own short blocks. I hope this explains what I am trying to do and perhaps someone could suggest a better way to go about it.

[Kelly Craig]

If I had to do a lot of these and it was a one time shot, I'd consider picking up a cheap miter to dedicate to the project. I would then remove the right side, leaving the fence and maybe 3/4" of the bed, and put a slide in the place of the bed. This would allow me to still use a stop, or at least a ruler, if needed, and still be productive.

For cutting to length, the cheapest miter you can get would work fine. It looks like the details that are most critical to you are the thickness, the width and square.

[Valentine Azbelle]

If I had to do a lot of these and it was a one time shot, I'd consider picking up a cheap miter to dedicate to the project. I would then remove the right side, leaving the fence and maybe 3/4" of the bed, and put a slide in the place of the bed. This would allow me to still use a stop, or at least a ruler, if needed, and still be productive.

For cutting to length, the cheapest miter you can get would work fine. It looks like the details that are most critical to you are the thickness, the width and square.

Yes, I am not too worried about cutting to length - that's the easy part... if I had a straight piece to cut from. Unfortunately I'm afraid I will have to cut the thick (4x6 or whatever) blocks to length first and then rip them into individual pieces. In this particular diffusor there are only 4 different lengths with about 40 blocks of each length. But the future difussors I'm planning on making will be much larger and consist of 10-20 different lengths. I don't mind going slow and measuring every cut twice (I'm not on a deadline). I'm just worried whether the tool can handle the task.

[Van Huskey]

Ah, acoustic diffusers, guess you know the work of Schroeder well.

If that were my project I would joint one side of the board, then rip to width on the table saw then cross cut to length on the miter saw. This assume you have a jointer, table saw and a miter saw. If you have none of the above and only want to buy one tool it would be a table saw in my book. I would cherry pick my lumber for straightness then rip to width then crosscut with the miter gauge to length. I would not want to do this job on a miter saw alone, it is begging for an ER visit. You will find the wider construction lumber will exhibit more bowing etc. I would probably use 2x4 studs and rip them down the middle and go from there. Studs are much easier to find straight and close to square than most other construction lumber.

[Marty Paulus]

Trying to do all the cuts with a Mitre saw is asking for trouble. You didn't list where you are from. Maybe a trip to a local Rockler or Woodcraft store to see the tools we are talking about would help. Maybe a local cabinet shop could do the cuts for you to get the lumber to the 1.5 X 1.5. They would have all the machinery necessary to do this safely and accurately. As stated the length cuts on any mitre saw from there are easy.

[Valentine Azbelle]

Ah, acoustic diffusers, guess you know the work of Schroeder well.

If that were my project I would joint one side of the board, then rip to width on the table saw then cross cut to length on the miter saw. This assume you have a jointer, table saw and a miter saw. If you have none of the above and only want to buy one tool it would be a table saw in my book. I would cherry pick my lumber for straightness then rip to width then crosscut with the miter gauge to length. I would not want to do this job on a miter saw alone, it is begging for an ER visit. You will find the wider construction lumber will exhibit more bowing etc. I would probably use 2x4 studs and rip them down the middle and go from there. Studs are much easier to find straight and close to square than most other construction lumber.


I'm ashamed to admit I have no idea who Schroeder is. (Unless you're talking about Ricky Schroeder :D). I'm just a musician. I don't understand the math behind the diffusors (believe I tried - really hard). Luckily there are online calculators for figuring out a diffusion matrix based on any prime number. The diffusors in the pic are actually the first BBC diffusors - very popular. The layout of those is also available online. So far I've made one BBC diffusor. Came out awful. Because all of the blocks are not square and really difficult to fit together.

The problem with 2x4 (vs. 4x4 or 4x6) is that it's already 1.5" in one dimension. In other words I can take wood off only 4 sides. The sides that are 1.5" apart must be straight and parallel already. In my experience (albeit quite short) that's virtually impossible. That's why I want to work with lumber with physical dimensions at least 3.5" x 3.5". This leaves me 0.25" on each side to play with and make them all perpendicular to one another. (I don't want to make blocks narrower than 1.5" - it would require a lot more blocks to cover the same area and hence a lot more cutting).

[Valentine Azbelle]

Trying to do all the cuts with a Mitre saw is asking for trouble. You didn't list where you are from. Maybe a trip to a local Rockler or Woodcraft store to see the tools we are talking about would help. Maybe a local cabinet shop could do the cuts for you to get the lumber to the 1.5 X 1.5. They would have all the machinery necessary to do this safely and accurately. As stated the length cuts on any mitre saw from there are easy.

I live in Buffalo Grove, IL (a Chicago suburb). I was planning on taking a tour of a woodworking store yesterday (was going to stop by Berland's) but we had a snow storm and I decided to stay in. Might make it out today.

I'm sure I could pay somebody to do the cutting but to have it done to the precision I need would cost a lot of money. If I do it myself I'm looking at about $10-20 in materials per diffusor. If someone is doing it for me that's probably $100-120. And that's just for the basic small BBC diffusor! If I want a bigger one with like 506 blocks instead of 156, the cutting might cost as much as a good 12" slider or a table saw.

I will ask in the store what they would recommend. But a lumber yard I talked to said that they would rip it for like $1.38 per foot but they can't guarantee the straightness. What's the point, if they can't guarantee?

[Tom Slupek]

Wood is live building media. After it is cut it moves, some more than others. Dimensional lumber ie. 2x4s and anything else is quite wet compared to furniture grade lumber that is dried to somewhere near 7-8% moisture content. If you try to cut your blocks from regular building material lumber you will be surprised how much it will move and twists even in those short lengths. That is why the lumber yard will not guarantee anything and I don't blame them.

The best dimensional lumber would be Douglas Fir since it is the hardest of the species used for construction lumber but it is difficult to find and it is still quite wet 12-20% moisture content.

Berland's house of tools caters to the trades industry and their markup is very high on the same tool compared to the BORGs. The service is second to none if you get good with them but you pay for it upfront.

[Valentine Azbelle]

Wood is live building media. After it is cut it moves, some more than others. Dimensional lumber ie. 2x4s and anything else is quite wet compared to furniture grade lumber that is dried to somewhere near 7-8% moisture content. If you try to cut your blocks from regular building material lumber you will be surprised how much it will move and twists even in those short lengths. That is why the lumber yard will not guarantee anything and I don't blame them.

I don't blame them either. I just realize they won't put in as much effort into getting the precision as I would. If you want something done right... do it yourself. :) Quite honestly I don't expect a 3" long block to change much after it's been cut. But I may be very wrong. Is there a way to dry the lumber in home conditions? Where can I get furniture grade lumber? How expensive is it?


Berland's house of tools caters to the trades industry and their markup is very high on the same tool compared to the BORGs. The service is second to none if you get good with them but you pay for it upfront.

I am only going to Berland's to look and perhaps to ask a couple of questions. I will check out BORG's (if we have one around here).

[Craig D Peltier]

I have had the milwaukee since it came out. It was something like $650 then. I like it. It diidnt need any adjustments. Although the angle indicator is off 1/2 degree , im sure I can adjust it but I set it by my angle finder anyhow. I wouldnt trust thats cale.
As far as flex, not sure if this is what you meant but, if you have a thin kerf blade it will flex in hardwood and not give you a 90 degree cut on the vertical. I use thick kerf blade and score a few times on thick stuff and cut slow and I get a good square cut.
2 things I dont like, its very heavy if you bring to a job. Its very loud, I use ear protection.
Also alot of wood gets caught in the track, not sure of this is common or not. I dont remember it happening as much on my ridgid or as bad.

[Callan Campbell]

I don't blame them either. I just realize they won't put in as much effort into getting the precision as I would. If you want something done right... do it yourself. :) Quite honestly I don't expect a 3" long block to change much after it's been cut. But I may be very wrong. Is there a way to dry the lumber in home conditions? Where can I get furniture grade lumber? How expensive is it?



I am only going to Berland's to look and perhaps to ask a couple of questions. I will check out BORG's (if we have one around here).
Hello fellow Chicagoland poster. First, wood tends to move, no matter what species you're using, second, it usually moves MORE across the width, not the length. So, your width measurement is actually harder to keep in line than the short length of the blocks you're making when wood tries to move with the season/weather.
Next, what everyone is fearful of with regards to you ripping with any saw is this. Trying to safely rip something less than 8-10 inches in length is not easy to do. The blade of either the miter saw you're thinking about, or a common 10" diameter blade of a table saw would be larger in size than the VERY few inches of wood you're trying to create. This easily leads to a possible jam or movement of the wood where you'd least like it to happen while it's being cut because it's harder to hold and you really don't want your fingers near the blade for 'ripping' on a miter saw. That's why we all keep trying to stress ripping a much longer piece of wood on a table saw, then just using that miter saw to cut it down to the small length you want. Much safer this way
Lots and lots of woodworkers, schools, manufactors of machines have listed the minimum sizes of wood pieces that should be attempted for given woodworking machine operation for good reason. Someone probably got hurt, badly, while trying to "just" use something smaller or closer to their finished size. Small pieces tip, fall over, are less stable against a fence and above all , LEAVE LESS ROOM FOR YOUR HANDS TO GUIDE/ HOLD the wood material you're working with. Recipe for an ER visit.
So, I propose this, PM me[send a private message] and lets see if I can help you SAFELY cut all that softwood in my basement shop. You pay for lunch on a weekend, and we'll get it done.
Lastly, BORG seems to stand for Big Orange Retail Giant, a catch-all phrase that would cover Home Depot, Lowes and Menards type big boxe stores in our area or anyone elses.

[David Prince]

I agree with using a table saw and using a better grade of lumber.

The miter saw could set you up for injury based on limited experience and using the saw for a ripping type cut. I am not saying you cannot rip on the miter saw, but it wasn't specifically designed to do that safely.

[Valentine Azbelle]

I have had the milwaukee since it came out. It was something like $650 then. I like it. It diidnt need any adjustments. Although the angle indicator is off 1/2 degree , im sure I can adjust it but I set it by my angle finder anyhow. I wouldnt trust thats cale.
As far as flex, not sure if this is what you meant but, if you have a thin kerf blade it will flex in hardwood and not give you a 90 degree cut on the vertical. I use thick kerf blade and score a few times on thick stuff and cut slow and I get a good square cut.
2 things I dont like, its very heavy if you bring to a job. Its very loud, I use ear protection.
Also alot of wood gets caught in the track, not sure of this is common or not. I dont remember it happening as much on my ridgid or as bad.

Thanks for the specific feedback on the Milwaukee. More and more sounds like it's a right choice for me. I don't care about the weight - I will only be using it at home and probably not move it at all. The noise is an issue but all saws are more or less loud (except perhaps for the Kapex) - but so are guitar amplifiers. And if I can stand next to a 100 watt of screaming guitar tube distortion for 4-5 hours I think I can handle a noisy saw. :D

What blade would you recommend? I have kinda settled on the Forrest CM12806115 Chopmaster: http://www.amazon.com/Forrest-CM12806115-Chopmaster-12-Inch-80-tooth/dp/B0000223VX/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t What do you think? I am thinking of using a blade stiffener - http://www.amazon.com/Forrest-STIF05-5-Inch-Dampener-Stiffener/dp/B0000223VT/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_c - is that any good? There is also a 6" stiffener.

I was told the more teeth the better but it looks like the blades with 100 teeth are for metal. Are they better for wood than 80-teeth blades mades specifically for wood?

[Callan Campbell]

Thanks for the specific feedback on the Milwaukee. More and more sounds like it's a right choice for me. I don't care about the weight - I will only be using it at home and probably not move it at all. The noise is an issue but all saws are more or less loud (except perhaps for the Kapex) - but so are guitar amplifiers. And if I can stand next to a 100 watt of screaming guitar tube distortion for 4-5 hours I think I can handle a noisy saw. :D

What blade would you recommend? I have kinda settled on the Forrest CM12806115 Chopmaster: http://www.amazon.com/Forrest-CM12806115-Chopmaster-12-Inch-80-tooth/dp/B0000223VX/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t What do you think? I am thinking of using a blade stiffener - http://www.amazon.com/Forrest-STIF05-5-Inch-Dampener-Stiffener/dp/B0000223VT/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_c - is that any good? There is also a 6" stiffener.

I was told the more teeth the better but it looks like the blades with 100 teeth are for metal. Are they better for wood than 80-teeth blades mades specifically for wood?
Ripping wood WITH the grain means you use like to have a blade that's set up best for that procedure. Cross-cutting uses a different amount of teeth and different shape to the teeth usually since it's cutting Against the grain. Miter saw blades are very good at cross cutting, not so much for ripping. And, not a safe procedure as we are all trying to stress to you. Google Radial Arm saw ripping accidents, or something similar to see more of what happens with a great cross cutting tool being used for a ripping operation. It HAS been done in the past when radial arm saws were more common and miter saws were not, it's just not considered the best/safest way to rip wood . You want all your fingers to work as a musician, right?.

[Valentine Azbelle]

Hello fellow Chicagoland poster. First, wood tends to move, no matter what species you're using, second, it usually moves MORE across the width, not the length. So, your width measurement is actually harder to keep in line than the short length of the blocks you're making when wood tries to move with the season/weather.
Next, what everyone is fearful of with regards to you ripping with any saw is this. Trying to safely rip something less than 8-10 inches in length is not easy to do. The blade of either the miter saw you're thinking about, or a common 10" diameter blade of a table saw would be larger in size than the VERY few inches of wood you're trying to create. This easily leads to a possible jam or movement of the wood where you'd least like it to happen while it's being cut because it's harder to hold and you really don't want your fingers near the blade for 'ripping' on a miter saw. That's why we all keep trying to stress ripping a much longer piece of wood on a table saw, then just using that miter saw to cut it down to the small length you want. Much safer this way
Lots and lots of woodworkers, schools, manufactors of machines have listed the minimum sizes of wood pieces that should be attempted for given woodworking machine operation for good reason. Someone probably got hurt, badly, while trying to "just" use something smaller or closer to their finished size. Small pieces tip, fall over, are less stable against a fence and above all , LEAVE LESS ROOM FOR YOUR HANDS TO GUIDE/ HOLD the wood material you're working with. Recipe for an ER visit.
So, I propose this, PM me[send a private message] and lets see if I can help you SAFELY cut all that softwood in my basement shop. You pay for lunch on a weekend, and we'll get it done.
Lastly, BORG seems to stand for Big Orange Retail Giant, a catch-all phrase that would cover Home Depot, Lowes and Menards type big boxe stores in our area or anyone elses.

First of all, thanks for clarifying BORG for me. :D:D:D What a rookie mistake. :D I actually googled BORG for directions. :D I am literally laughing out loud right now. :D:D:D:D:D

Yes, safety is certainly a priority #1, especially considering that for a musicians hands are almost as important as a penis. ;) I will look into using a table saw. Although I don't see how you can make a straight cut on a table saw if the piece of wood follows its outer edge against the fence, and thus if the edge is bowed so will be the cut (maybe to a lesser degree but still). A friend of mine suggested a planer for my purposes but I haven't had a chance to look into that either.

As for cutting small pieces on a miter saw... I think if I use clamps on both sides I don't have to stick my hands in there at all. Furthermore, I don't have to cut the last piece down to 1.5". On a diffuser there are sometimes 2 blocks of the same length side by side. I can simply leave a 3" block uncut into 2 for those situations. I think 3" is enough space to hold the block securely by a clamp. Am I wrong?

[David Prince]

I am not going to say that I haven't performed a rip cut on a miter saw before. (only out of sheer necessity at the time)

This is how I did it: Line up the piece, clamp your fingers on the board and make sure they are out of the way of the blade, clinch your teeth, fire up the saw, turn your head away, close your eyes, and pray to God you come out in one piece.:eek:

And you want to do this how many times????

Give up the miter saw idea for this project unless it is to cross-cut (IMHO)!

[Valentine Azbelle]

Ripping wood WITH the grain means you use like to have a blade that's set up best for that procedure. Cross-cutting uses a different amount of teeth and different shape to the teeth usually since it's cutting Against the grain. Miter saw blades are very good at cross cutting, not so much for ripping. And, not a safe procedure as we are all trying to stress to you. Google Radial Arm saw ripping accidents, or something similar to see more of what happens with a great cross cutting tool being used for a ripping operation. It HAS been done in the past when radial arm saws were more common and miter saws were not, it's just not considered the best/safest way to rip wood . You want all your fingers to work as a musician, right?.

I see your point on cutting with the grain vs. against the grain. Are the blades for miter saws and table saws different? Or are they interchangable? Is it possible to use a 12" table saw blade in a miter saw for cutting with the grain? Sorry, if these are stupid questions but like I said already I'm new to this.

And now for a really stupid question... Um... What's a kickback?

[Valentine Azbelle]

I am not going to say that I haven't performed a rip cut on a miter saw before. (only out of sheer necessity at the time)

This is how I did it: Line up the piece, clamp your fingers on the board and make sure they are out of the way of the blade, clinch your teeth, fire up the saw, turn your head away, close your eyes, and pray to God you come out in one piece.:eek:

And you want to do this how many times????

Give up the miter saw idea for this project unless it is to cross-cut (IMHO)!

OK, I am flexible on the tools. That's why I am asking questions in advance. I will try to see if there is another way to make my blocks perfectly square. But just so I understand... What can happen if you do a rip cut on a miter saw?

I was planning on using clamps instead of hands to keep the wood down. I am in no hurry - I have time to measure and line up every cut properly and clamp it down with a saw clamp (on both sides, if possible) and then cut through slowly and smoothly. Oh, and I already bought a pair of Milwaukee safety goggles which I fully intend to wear no matter how dorky it makes me look. :) Nevertheless I am super careful, especially when it comes to fast moving sharp objects. So please do tell me the potential consequences of a rip cut on a miter saw. I need to know.

[Callan Campbell]

First of all, thanks for clarifying BORG for me. :D:D:D What a rookie mistake. :D I actually googled BORG for directions. :D I am literally laughing out loud right now. :D:D:D:D:D

Yes, safety is certainly a priority #1, especially considering that for a musicians hands are almost as important as a penis. ;) I will look into using a table saw. Although I don't see how you can make a straight cut on a table saw if the piece of wood follows its outer edge against the fence, and thus if the edge is bowed so will be the cut (maybe to a lesser degree but still). A friend of mine suggested a planer for my purposes but I haven't had a chance to look into that either.

As for cutting small pieces on a miter saw... I think if I use clamps on both sides I don't have to stick my hands in there at all. Furthermore, I don't have to cut the last piece down to 1.5". On a diffuser there are sometimes 2 blocks of the same length side by side. I can simply leave a 3" block uncut into 2 for those situations. I think 3" is enough space to hold the block securely by a clamp. Am I wrong?
[1] I didn't know what BORG stood for either, never heard the term until I started posting on this forum, so we both learned something..
[2] Wood that has a raw or not square edge to it, will not ride against the fence of a table saw correctly unless you do something about it.
You can use another machine ,called a Jointer, to square one face of the wood to one edge, you can hand plane the same edge, or you start with a bit wider of a piece, make a cut on the table saw, and flip the newly cut edge against the fence for all the other cuts out of the same piece of wood that you need to make
Sometimes we clamp the raw wood to an already cut piece to act as a guide, and use the already cut piece against the table saw fence to act as a guide for obtaining that 90 degree cut off the wood with the raw edge. All these things are possible, just your time and budget.
[3] If you look at the miter saw you're wanting to buy[and I own the same saw by the way], you'll see a rather large gap between the fences. You'll need to fill that gap with a piece of plywood or other fairly flat wood that's long enough to span the whole length of both fences. Clamp the wood to the fences, make a cut through the wood and you've now got a zero clearance fence to cut your VERY short pieces that you want to hold/make. Cross cut a 3 inch long piece of wood with this set-up is safer , but I'm still getting heartburn thinking about it because you're working with such small pieces.
[4] Lastly, you won't end up with two 1 1/2"pieces out of a 3 inch starting piece because no matter what saw you use, hand OR power, the blade cuts its own path out of the wood, and what ever space that "kerf" is, you lose that much wood with each cut. So, you have to allow for the Kerf of whatever saw you're working with. I know, alot to learn about, but that's why we're here.;)

[Valentine Azbelle]

Wood that has a raw or not square edge to it, will not ride against the fence of a table saw correctly unless you do something about it.
You can use another machine ,called a Jointer, to square one face of the wood to one edge, you can hand plane the same edge, or you start with a bit wider of a piece, make a cut on the table saw, and flip the newly cut edge against the fence for all the other cuts out of the same piece of wood that you need to make
Sometimes we clamp the raw wood to an already cut piece to act as a guide, and use the already cut piece against the table saw fence to act as a guide for obtaining that 90 degree cut off the wood with the raw edge. All these things are possible, just your time and budget.

That definitely sounds more like what I want to do. Still not sure how you can make the first cut straight if the other edge is curved and you're running it against the fence. Also can't really imagine how you can clamp a straight piece of wood as a guide to the piece you're cutting if you're moving it across the table. But if there is a way to do that the table saw might be the way to go.


If you look at the miter saw you're wanting to buy[and I own the same saw by the way], you'll see a rather large gap between the fences. You'll need to fill that gap with a piece of plywood or other fairly flat wood that's long enough to span the whole length of both fences. Clamp the wood to the fences, make a cut through the wood and you've now got a zero clearance fence to cut your VERY short pieces that you want to hold/make. Cross cut a 3 inch long piece of wood with this set-up is safer , but I'm still getting heartburn thinking about it because you're working with such small pieces.

Great tip on the zero clearance fence, thanks! Will certainly do that.

How do you like your Milwaukee saw?

[4] Lastly, you won't end up with two 1 1/2"pieces out of a 3 inch starting piece because no matter what saw you use, hand OR power, the blade cuts its own path out of the wood, and what ever space that "kerf" is, you lose that much wood with each cut. So, you have to allow for the Kerf of whatever saw you're working with. I know, alot to learn about, but that's why we're here.;)[/QUOTE]

I am aware of the kerf. All factored in already. What I meant earlier was that if I have two blocks of the same legnth side by side in the matrix I would get one block of 1.5" x 3" instead of 2 separate 1.5" x 1.5" blocks (which would require slightly more wood naturally).

Any suggestions on the blade for the miter saw? I am looking at the Forrest CM12806115 Chopmaster 80T blade. Any good? Thinking of adding a stiffener.

[Sylvain Deschamps]

I think theres no way around it. Buy rough the most stable wood that is recommended on this thread so far. (cherry if I am not misstaken) Mill it on the jointer in conjunction with the tablesaw as indicated by others, then finish it to 1.5" through the planer. Then you can use the miter saw or even better, don't buy a mitersaw and keep your money for a small used 4" jointer available everywhere for under 100$, build a respectable tablesaw sled using stop blocks (easy to make) to cut to req'ed lenght, and voilà. For the planer, well ask your friend to use his and buy him a new set of blades for all the help! ;)
And yes I believe Milwaukee is a good choice but the right hand sliding guard has to be milled a little on order to function as supposed to, and low tilting is quite heavy. But apart that great precise cuts .

[Van Huskey]

First to your tooling questions:

1. As I said the Milwaukee is a solid slider, no issues there.

2. The Forrest Chopmaster is an excellent blade for a CSMS but is overkill working with 2X constrcution lumber

3. You should not need a stiffener for a full kerf blade and it will reduce your depth of cut

Now to my Schroeder reference, M R Shroeder is one of the big diffuser guys known for his quadratic-residue diffusers which I like better than skyline diffusers and you can make them look like furniture. The pic you posted is of Gernot's portable diffusers, make sure you use a more stable leg as his broke the first few times he used them, had to redesign them.


Now on to wood, construction lumber is notorious for bending and twisting due to moisture content differences between the outside and inside 2x2s are just nasty to keep straight. You need to let the wood acclimate to your shop for a couple of weeks and then you are still going to have some that does the funky chicken overnight after cutting.

As for tools the correct way to do this would be to joint one edge to get a straight/flat reference edge, this is easiest on a jointer (you could get a small benchtop version) BUT jointing can be done on a table saw or router table as well. Then once you have the reference edge you would rip the pieces to width on the table saw, then crosscut them on either a table saw or miter saw. If one wants to use 1 machine for the entire process the ONLY safe way is with a tablesaw, it can joint, rip and crosscut the 3 processes you need.


Now I am going to be blunt here, doing the rip cuts on a miter saw is dangerous, and not in the "do as I say not as I do" variety but in the "dude, your gonna lose some body part" way. A CSMS is NOT the tool for this job, it is for crosscutting NEVER ripping.


Off the mini rant. You are concerned about accuracy which I get, but I am concerned you will have a hard time getting that accuracy with the wood you plan to use, it just moves too much after the cut. In the end I bet if you cut 100 pieces by jointing, ripping and crosscutting then I cut 100 pieces by simply ripping against the "factory edge" then crosscutting, then wait two days you won't be able to tell which stack is which because they will all have twists and bows.

In the end please forget the SCMS for rip cuts if you do it and come out in one piece it isn't because we are all wrong here it is because you are just a charmed guy.

Feel free to PM me and I will be happy to give you my phone number if you would like to talk it out. You also might want to take Callun up on his kind offer, even if you plan so much he can't do it all at least you could see how to properly perform the task and evaluate what tools you really need.

[Callan Campbell]

I see your point on cutting with the grain vs. against the grain. Are the blades for miter saws and table saws different? Or are they interchangable? Is it possible to use a 12" table saw blade in a miter saw for cutting with the grain? Sorry, if these are stupid questions but like I said already I'm new to this.

And now for a really stupid question... Um... What's a kickback?
Ahh Grasshopper, we are now getting somewhere. Ok, yes, generally speaking, people who make saw blades tend to give you the best choice for a given tool usage or single machine type with that particular blade and the material type you want to cut it with[wood, plastic, aluminum etc]. So, blade size, the tooth pattern, angles, amount of teeth are set to provide best results for a single machine in most cases.
Note that I stated most cases, as there ARE some blades out there that the stated usage is multiple machines/types, like IT will work OK in either a miter saw, table saw, etc. They'll state this usually on a manufs. web site or also the packaging that the blade came with or who ever sold you the saw blade and knows their stuff. Plus anyone who's got one of these blades and lurks here on the SMC can chime in.
Kickback? very nasty thing that can happen when your material starts to lift up around the spinning blade and shoot backwards at you, or jams/grabs the blade and is violently thrown backwards away from the blades rotation, again, at you, the operator. The fact that you now asked about it means you're starting to share some of our concerns about what you want to cut/build. So, no dumb questions, esp, with your safety in mind.;)

[Valentine Azbelle]

First to your tooling questions:

1. As I said the Milwaukee is a solid slider, no issues there.

2. The Forrest Chopmaster is an excellent blade for a CSMS but is overkill working with 2X constrcution lumber

3. You should not need a stiffener for a full kerf blade and it will reduce your depth of cut.

Cool. Thanks for the answers.


Now to my Schroeder reference, M R Shroeder is one of the big diffuser guys known for his quadratic-residue diffusers which I like better than skyline diffusers and you can make them look like furniture. The pic you posted is of Gernot's portable diffusers, make sure you use a more stable leg as his broke the first few times he used them, had to redesign them.

You possibly know more about diffusors than I do. :) The stands I'm making for mine cannot break (unless the house collapses or somn', and even then...). They are very crudely (but securely) made of 2x4's. I am not planning on making them mobile - if I need to move the stands I would take the diffusors off first, move the stands in the position and then hang them back on. No casters to break off.


Now on to wood, construction lumber is notorious for bending and twisting due to moisture content differences between the outside and inside 2x2s are just nasty to keep straight. You need to let the wood acclimate to your shop for a couple of weeks and then you are still going to have some that does the funky chicken overnight after cutting.

Is there better wood I can use? What kind, where do I get it, and how much does it cost (ballpark)?


As for tools the correct way to do this would be to joint one edge to get a straight/flat reference edge, this is easiest on a jointer (you could get a small benchtop version) BUT jointing can be done on a table saw or router table as well. Then once you have the reference edge you would rip the pieces to width on the table saw, then crosscut them on either a table saw or miter saw. If one wants to use 1 machine for the entire process the ONLY safe way is with a tablesaw, it can joint, rip and crosscut the 3 processes you need.

I am looking into the tools other than the SMCS. Going to Berland's and then to HD right now.


Now I am going to be blunt here, doing the rip cuts on a miter saw is dangerous, and not in the "do as I say not as I do" variety but in the "dude, your gonna lose some body part" way. A CSMS is NOT the tool for this job, it is for crosscutting NEVER ripping.

Can you tell me what exactly can happen if I rip on a miter saw? Not because I am questioning anybody's wisdom but because I need to understand the specific danger. Not like "you're gonna lose a body part" but something like "the blade will rip out a splinter and it will fly into your face" or "the suction of the blade will create a black hole and destroy the planet" or whatever. Just be specific.


Feel free to PM me and I will be happy to give you my phone number if you would like to talk it out. You also might want to take Callun up on his kind offer, even if you plan so much he can't do it all at least you could see how to properly perform the task and evaluate what tools you really need.

I PM'ed you and Callun. Thanks guys.

[Callan Campbell]

As Van H. beautifully stated, don't rip cut with a miter saw. The dangers pointed out could be stated anyway one wants to, but the end result is the same. Unsafe cutting procedure with a tool that was designed to make a different type of cut only.:eek::eek::eek: The risk of having some, or all of your hand jerked into the spinning blade with a loss of control during the cut, or kickback occurring, is too great of a risk when asking this tool to perform a rip cut. Just because you've clamped the wood to the machine doesn't rule out a piece suddenly coming loose and taking flight, even with your hands not near the blade and still ok. Right now we've probably got some engineer from Milwaukee reading all of this and silently praying that you buy a Makita and not their tool.:p
Remember, you're cutting WITH the grain of the wood at this type of cut,and the wood can have built-in stresses from having grown improperly while it was still a tree that was alive[esp the pine you want to use]. When you RELEASE those hidden stresses in the wood, it wants to GO somewhere with that stored energy. Usually where WE least want it to go......That's how I experienced my first kickback on a table saw, I had "reaction" wood as it's sometimes known. Had all the right stuff, splitter, guard, no fingers near the blade. Flew right back at me in a hurry, left a small bruise on my stomach. See, I was working SAFE, and still got a bruise. Accidents happen, but happen easily if you don't try to follow correct, safe procedures.
Now, picture that the guard on your miter saw wasn't really set-up to handle a rip cut at all[all design work went towards safe cross-cutting], and you have NO splitter at the rear of the blade to help control a kickback issue like on a table saw, it IS a recipe for someone getting hurt, probably badly.
As for a second wood choice for your project, I've never built one. Is it the shape that matters, and not the density/type of the wood? If so, Poplar is an inexpensive, readily available wood in many common dimensions at a low price when compared to other hardwoods. It cuts easily, and isn't hard on tools or their blades. Could be your new choice for this project.

[Lex Boegen]

Yes, that's almost right. I am planning on ripping 4x6x12 into 6 2x2 pieces. Or rather 1.5" x 1.5" to be precise. I don't know if I will get 6 out of 4x6 but that's irrelevant at this point.



The problem I see with a table saw is if the wood that I'm ripping is bent, since I'm moving the wood against the blade and the fence (not moving the blade against the wood) the lumber will follow the curvature of the original piece against the fence. I haven't tried this and I may be wrong (did I mention I'm new to this?). I don't even know what a band saw is. Doesn't 2x4 (which will be the smallest piece to be cut) have enough area to be pressed against the fence to get a solid 90 degree angle? When I was using my friend's DeWalt miter saw cutting 2x2 lumber it seemed like if you make one edge perfectly straight and then press it against the fence you get a perfect perpendicular to the fence. Is that wrong?

My vote would be for a tablesaw. There are several techiques for jointing an edge of lumber on the tablesaw, which would true up one edge of the lumber.

One method of jointing on the tablesaw involves using a wide board (or piece of plywood, MDF, etc.) with a known-good straight edge to ride against the saw fence. That board is used as a sled, and the non-square piece of lumber is clamped to it so that the edge that you want to joint overhangs the sled. The reference edge of the sled rides against the saw fence, and you trim off one edge of the non-square board. Mark the jointed edge so it won't get mixed up, and later after all the jointing is done, run those marked edges against the fence and rip the boards to width.

Crosscutting would be the last operation, and using a miter gauge extension fence (or sled) with stop blocks would ensure consistent lengths.

[Valentine Azbelle]

A huge thanks to Van who took the time out of his day and edjumacated me on the issues of wood cutting and safety. The nicest guy ever! You da man, Van! Thank you so much.

[Tad Capar]

Originally posted by Van Huskey:
Now on to wood, construction lumber is notorious for bending and twisting due to moisture content differences between the outside and inside 2x2s are just nasty to keep straight. You need to let the wood acclimate to your shop for a couple of weeks and then you are still going to have some that does the funky chicken overnight after cutting.

As for tools the correct way to do this would be to joint one edge to get a straight/flat reference edge, this is easiest on a jointer (you could get a small benchtop version) BUT jointing can be done on a table saw or router table as well. Then once you have the reference edge you would rip the pieces to width on the table saw, then crosscut them on either a table saw or miter saw. If one wants to use 1 machine for the entire process the ONLY safe way is with a tablesaw, it can joint, rip and crosscut the 3 processes you need.

Now I am going to be blunt here, doing the rip cuts on a miter saw is dangerous, and not in the "do as I say not as I do" variety but in the "dude, your gonna lose some body part" way. A CSMS is NOT the tool for this job, it is for crosscutting NEVER ripping.


Off the mini rant. You are concerned about accuracy which I get, but I am concerned you will have a hard time getting that accuracy with the wood you plan to use, it just moves too much after the cut. In the end I bet if you cut 100 pieces by jointing, ripping and crosscutting then I cut 100 pieces by simply ripping against the "factory edge" then crosscutting, then wait two days you won't be able to tell which stack is which because they will all have twists and bows.

In the end please forget the SCMS for rip cuts if you do it and come out in one piece it isn't because we are all wrong here it is because you are just a charmed guy.

Feel free to PM me and I will be happy to give you my phone number if you would like to talk it out. You also might want to take Callun up on his kind offer, even if you plan so much he can't do it all at least you could see how to properly perform the task and evaluate what tools you really need.
Amen to that. Please reread his post few times and take it seriously to your heart, it best summarises the overall consensus of this thread.

If this were my project, I would use a dry wood (I just happen to have 50 yrs old 2x8 and 2x10 douglas fir with straight, tight grain and knots free that I saved from a house demolition and they are 1 5/8 thick). I would first cross cut'm to about 2 - 3 ft, rip'm in half, let them sit in my sop for a week or so (to acclimate), then face joint'm, run'm through the planer to size (1 1/2"), edge joint'm, rip'm on table saw to 1 9/16", run'm through planer twice ( to clean the rip sides ) taking 1/32 off of each side and then I'd be ready to cut them to length ( time for a chop saw).
I realize that finding an old grown wood might not be that simple, but inquiring on the CL might help. If that doesn't work out, then go with a furniture grade lumber. Depending on your taste and budget, you can go with a poplar as a minimum or cherry (good stability) as the other end of domestic wood species, or any wood in between. I think you should look for an 8/4" stock (2" thick, which you would end up with 1 3/4" x 1 3/4" square or less if you prefer) and follow the steps described above.
Check with your friend to see if he has a jointer if not, perhaps you should consider to purchase one it would be money well spend especially when you're considering to purchase a $500 CSMS. It seems to me that your friend has table saw and planer, he should be able to help you out with this. Or take advantage of the offers given by good people here.

DEFINITELY FORGET ABOUT YOUR WAY OF GETTING THIS PROJECT DONE.

[Greg Wittler]

If this were my project, I would use a dry wood (I just happen to have 50 yrs old 2x8 and 2x10 douglas fir with straight, tight grain and knots free that I saved from a house demolition and they are 1 5/8 thick). I would first cross cut'm to about 2 - 3 ft, rip'm in half, let them sit in my shop for a week or so (to acclimate), then face joint'm, run'm through the planer to size (1 1/2"), edge joint'm, rip'm on table saw to 1 9/16", run'm through planer twice ( to clean the rip sides ) taking 1/32 off of each side and then I'd be ready to cut them to length ( time for a chop saw).


+1
after looking at the picture you posted, the wood looks like beechwood which I would call (IMO) the euro equivalent to poplar in price but is a harder wood. The main thing I noticed is like Tad said in his previous post about using wood with a straight grain. If you look at the picture some of the endgrain that is noticeable goes at a angle but is fairly straight. If it looked more like the shape of a parenthesis on its side, you could have more problems with the wood moving.

Greg

[Kelly Craig]

Since thickness would pose a problem, see if you can find a local mill. You may be able to acquire some lumber before it's milled. That way you would have actual 2x to work from. I did this on the beaches of Western Washington once and they were happy to take my cash.

The only thing you might have to watch for is whether or not the product has already been kiln dried. You probably don't need it shifting on you after it's used for your project, or warping, waning and so forth while it sets.

[Valentine Azbelle]

+1
after looking at the picture you posted, the wood looks like beechwood which I would call (IMO) the euro equivalent to poplar in price but is a harder wood. The main thing I noticed is like Tad said in his previous post about using wood with a straight grain. If you look at the picture some of the endgrain that is noticeable goes at a angle but is fairly straight. If it looked more like the shape of a parenthesis on its side, you could have more problems with the wood moving.

Greg

Which wood species have straighter grain? I will try to do some research on my own but if you (or anybody) have any insight on this please post it here. Thanks.

[Michael Wildt]

For straight grained, maple could be one choice.

I'm a hobbyist my self and even with the right set of tools available creating these is a lot of work. Especially with the requirement of keeping the stock fully square.
Cost will be high if you're going towards more dry and straight grained wood. Not sure what your budget is. As other have suggested if you do not have a jointer/table saw then I would talk with a local wood shop or furniture grade lumber yard and price the wood out. You can then cut to length at home.

If you're not fully hooked on that particular design or you cannot live with some flaws in the wood then I would suggest something like this instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPL0or2x2ko

Same principle but way easier and faster to build. Of course the calculations has to be in order to achieve same result.

[Michael Wildt]

For those with more interest in diffusers this video is a good intro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nzmBhkR4JQ&feature=related

[Valentine Azbelle]

For straight grained, maple could be one choice.

I'm a hobbyist my self and even with the right set of tools available creating these is a lot of work. Especially with the requirement of keeping the stock fully square.
Cost will be high if you're going towards more dry and straight grained wood. Not sure what your budget is. As other have suggested if you do not have a jointer/table saw then I would talk with a local wood shop or furniture grade lumber yard and price the wood out. You can then cut to length at home.

If you're not fully hooked on that particular design or you cannot live with some flaws in the wood then I would suggest something like this instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPL0or2x2ko

Same principle but way easier and faster to build. Of course the calculations has to be in order to achieve same result.

Thanks for the link. Great info. No, I am pretty much set on a 2D Skyline. Besides anything with partitions to me seems harder to build then just glue a bunch of blocks together. Also so far the cost to me for one BBC diffusor was under $15. Although who knows? I might go the 1D route if this doesn't work out.

[Valentine Azbelle]

OK, so while visiting a Home Depot last night I have possibly found an alternative material for the diffusors. 3/4" MDF. It seems sturdy, straight, with perfect square edges and cheap. If I glue two sheets together I get my 1.5". All I need to do is rip it into 1.5" strips (it comes in 4'x8' sheets). What do you guys think? Any advice, suggestions, tips and insight as always are greatly appreciated.

[Michael Wildt]

Not a bad idea with MDF, besides weight. All depends on how you plan to mount each block. Pick a good screw to hold them to the backplane.

Do be careful with the dust the cutting creates. Try to vacuum it up when cutting or wear a respirator. A few cuts should be ok, but you're going to make significant cuts.

You can google mdf and formaldehyde.

[Michael Wildt]

Thanks for the link. Great info. No, I am pretty much set on a 2D Skyline. Besides anything with partitions to me seems harder to build then just glue a bunch of blocks together. Also so far the cost to me for one BBC diffusor was under $15. Although who knows? I might go the 1D route if this doesn't work out.

May I suggest you check out this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nzmBhkR4JQ&feature=related

May put a different spin on 2D versus 1D.

[Tom Cornish]

OK, so while visiting a Home Depot last night I have possibly found an alternative material for the diffusors. 3/4" MDF. It seems sturdy, straight, with perfect square edges and cheap. If I glue two sheets together I get my 1.5". All I need to do is rip it into 1.5" strips (it comes in 4'x8' sheets). What do you guys think? Any advice, suggestions, tips and insight as always are greatly appreciated.


I've been lurking here for a while but your thread prompted me to jump in.

I'm also a musician and understand the basics of acoustic treatment and diffusion.

While you have gotten a lot of good and very correct info about not using a miter saw to rip (don't forget to thank them all after you finish your project still having all 10 fingers), I don't think anyone has asked why you feel you need more accuracy than a table saw can provide. Can you enlighten us? It seems a little contradictory to build a diffusor out of 2X4s with a 2X4 frame and then worry about fractions of a degree here or there. Are you trying to avoid fastening the pieces and have them all friction fit or something? What is the musical purpose of such precision?

That may help you get the best advice possible once we understand what you are trying to accomplish.

[Valentine Azbelle]

May I suggest you check out this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nzmBhkR4JQ&feature=related

May put a different spin on 2D versus 1D.

Yeah, I watched all the RealTraps videos on their website. I'm not questioning Ethan's expertise - I learned a lot from his site and his posts on various forums - but I don't understand what he means by "wasting the acoustic energy by sending it towards the ceiling/floor". Isn't the whole point to scatter the sound energy? Who cares which way it goes?

Ultimately my choice of a skyline type is based on (relative) ease of production, not on its acoustic performance.

[Valentine Azbelle]

I've been lurking here for a while but your thread prompted me to jump in.

I'm also a musician and understand the basics of acoustic treatment and diffusion.

While you have gotten a lot of good and very correct info about not using a miter saw to rip (don't forget to thank them all after you finish your project still having all 10 fingers), I don't think anyone has asked why you feel you need more accuracy than a table saw can provide. Can you enlighten us? It seems a little contradictory to build a diffusor out of 2X4s with a 2X4 frame and then worry about fractions of a degree here or there. Are you trying to avoid fastening the pieces and have them all friction fit or something? What is the musical purpose of such precision?

There is no musical purpose to this. Just ease of putting it all together. With the diffusor I already made I spent over an hour just trying to glue the first row of the matrix and make it all straight! Because some blocks were trapezoid in the cross section, some had concave walls, none were actually 1.5" on all 4 walls, most didn't have corners... it was impossible to make both sides of the row straight. I used two levels and if one side was straight the other looked like fiords in Norway. Took me 8-10 hours to glue everything together. I'd rather spend a couple of hours more cutting and then have it all assembled in 2-3 hours (vs. 8-10).

[Michael Wildt]

Yeah, I watched all the RealTraps videos on their website. I'm not questioning Ethan's expertise - I learned a lot from his site and his posts on various forums - but I don't understand what he means by "wasting the acoustic energy by sending it towards the ceiling/floor". Isn't the whole point to scatter the sound energy? Who cares which way it goes?

Ultimately my choice of a skyline type is based on (relative) ease of production, not on its acoustic performance.

I think he means that the sound pressure will be less when also directed towards ceiling and floor, and the diffusion is not that much more. Now that is a complete other discussion that is probably best having directly with him and not me.

When you glue together the amount of woodblocks you need for this one you can only glue a few at a time unless you make a jig or something to hold them in place. Glue is slippery and you need a bunch of clamps unless you screw each one onto the back piece.

The DP1 model is far easier since you just screw the plates to the spacers potentially no glue at all. Of course one has to make sure you assemble in the correct order in both cases.

[Tom Cornish]

There is no musical purpose to this. Just ease of putting it all together. With the diffusor I already made I spent over an hour just trying to glue the first row of the matrix and make it all straight! Because some blocks were trapezoid in the cross section, some had concave walls, none were actually 1.5" on all 4 walls, most didn't have corners... it was impossible to make both sides of the row straight. I used two levels and if one side was straight the other looked like fiords in Norway. Took me 8-10 hours to glue everything together. I'd rather spend a couple of hours more cutting and then have it all assembled in 2-3 hours (vs. 8-10).

If that's the issue, something manufactured like MDF will work a lot better than cheap unpredictable dimensional lumber. Since it seems you are most concerned with the squareness of the long edges rather then the ends of the pieces, a table saw is still definitely the right tool.

The other benefit of MDF is that someone else already made the top and bottom a uniform thickness - if you stack your pieces horizontally, everything will stack nicely and there will be no gaps in the vertical direction, and any table saw errors will only be in one direction - horizontally. This will substantially reduce setup time and should produce a workable result without having to be unreasonably exacting with your table saw technique.

[Valentine Azbelle]

If that's the issue, something manufactured like MDF will work a lot better than cheap unpredictable dimensional lumber. Since it seems you are most concerned with the squareness of the long edges rather then the ends of the pieces, a table saw is still definitely the right tool.

The other benefit of MDF is that someone else already made the top and bottom a uniform thickness - if you stack your pieces horizontally, everything will stack nicely and there will be no gaps in the vertical direction, and any table saw errors will only be in one direction - horizontally. This will substantially reduce setup time and should produce a workable result without having to be unreasonably exacting with your table saw technique.

Well, the idea is not to make any table saw errors. :) And if the errors are made that piece is discarded. I wonder if a lumber yard would rip MDF for me into 1.5" strips.

[Valentine Azbelle]

When you glue together the amount of woodblocks you need for this one you can only glue a few at a time unless you make a jig or something to hold them in place. Glue is slippery and you need a bunch of clamps unless you screw each one onto the back piece.

I do it row by row. Once I made one row and it solidified I can use it as a guide for the rest... as long as the blocks are straight.


The DP1 model is far easier since you just screw the plates to the spacers potentially no glue at all. Of course one has to make sure you assemble in the correct order in both cases.

I haven't seen much info on DIY DP1 (wasn't really looking for it I guess). Is there a layout that can be calculated for different frequencies/coverage? I might look into making one although like I said, making the partitions are a real pain for me.

[Valentine Azbelle]

Speaking of table saws... I am looking at DeWalt DW745. Any good? Any other recommendations?

[Tom Cornish]

Speaking of table saws... I am looking at DeWalt DW745. Any good? Any other recommendations?

http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=4100-09

I have the Bosch 4000 - older version of this one. The table and fence are better than most of the other contractor's saws. If you are going to do any woodworking after you finish this project, it's worth the money to get a good tool.

[Valentine Azbelle]

http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=4100-09

I have the Bosch 4000 - older version of this one. The table and fence are better than most of the other contractor's saws. If you are going to do any woodworking after you finish this project, it's worth the money to get a good tool.

I don't know much about table saws (yet). Can you tell me what's the thickest 4100 can cut? Also these portable saws look kinda small. How big of a sheet you can cut on it realistically?

[Steve Bishop]

I like your idea about MDF, its a very stable material. I would have the BORG cut each piece in half, two 4X4 pieces will be much easier to handle. A 4X8 sheet of 3/4 MDF weighs 75-90 pounds. Much to awkward and heavy to handle by yourself on a table saw.

How about using a circular saw and a cutting guide to make your 1.5" wide cuts? Do a search on Google for "Circular Saw Cutting Guide Plan", for details on making one.

I break down sheet goods this way by placing some 2X4 on the garage floor then the MDF and clamp the cutting guide on it. The cutting guide allows the circular saw to cut a straight line, you'll just have to clamp it in the right spot to get your 1.5" cut.

Since your in Buffalo Grove, head over to the Woodcraft store on Dundee Rd just west of 53. Its a real woodworking store, much more specialized then the BORG.

Hope this helps.
Steve

[Tom Cornish]

I don't know much about table saws (yet). Can you tell me what's the thickest 4100 can cut? Also these portable saws look kinda small. How big of a sheet you can cut on it realistically?

The fence on the Bosch saw will go to 24" so you can rip a 4X8 sheet anywhere the long way. Ripping sheet goods on any portable table saw requires 2 people to do safely and accurately, but can be done on the Bosch.

I just upgraded to a SawStop cabinet saw with a much larger table and a 52" fence. It's MUCH easier to cut sheet goods on the new saw than the old one, but still requires 2 people. Cabinet saws are a large upgrade over the portable guys, but now you're talking a minimum of $1000 for a new one, and they easily run into the several thousands for top quality saws.

Again, the question you need to answer is are you buying a tool just for your diffuser project, or are you intending to do more woodworking in the future? Every tool I've ever bought has paid for itself several times over because I'm a home improvement addict and they get constant use. Because of this I can justify some nice tools, because over a number of projects the tools will pay for themselves. If I only did occasional projects, it would be harder to justify spending $$$$.

[Tom Cornish]

I don't know much about table saws (yet). Can you tell me what's the thickest 4100 can cut? Also these portable saws look kinda small. How big of a sheet you can cut on it realistically?


Forgot to answer your question - most 10" saws can cut approximately 2 3/4" to 3" thick.

[Michael Wildt]

I do it row by row. Once I made one row and it solidified I can use it as a guide for the rest... as long as the blocks are straight.



I haven't seen much info on DIY DP1 (wasn't really looking for it I guess). Is there a layout that can be calculated for different frequencies/coverage? I might look into making one although like I said, making the partitions are a real pain for me.

This might work for you:

http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/qrdude.htm

[Valentine Azbelle]

I like your idea about MDF, its a very stable material. I would have the BORG cut each piece in half, two 4X4 pieces will be much easier to handle. A 4X8 sheet of 3/4 MDF weighs 75-90 pounds. Much to awkward and heavy to handle by yourself on a table saw.

How about using a circular saw and a cutting guide to make your 1.5" wide cuts? Do a search on Google for "Circular Saw Cutting Guide Plan", for details on making one.

I break down sheet goods this way by placing some 2X4 on the garage floor then the MDF and clamp the cutting guide on it. The cutting guide allows the circular saw to cut a straight line, you'll just have to clamp it in the right spot to get your 1.5" cut.

Since your in Buffalo Grove, head over to the Woodcraft store on Dundee Rd just west of 53. Its a real woodworking store, much more specialized then the BORG.

Hope this helps.
Steve

I thought if I get a table saw I won't need the circular saw. Is that not the case? Is there something I can do with a circular saw that I can't do with the table saw?

I will check out the guide info. Sounds like the thing to do.

I've been planning on going to the Berland's and the Woodcraft for three days now - always something gets in the way. :rolleyes: Maybe today is the day. :)

[Valentine Azbelle]

Forgot to answer your question - most 10" saws can cut approximately 2 3/4" to 3" thick.

Nothing cuts 4"? Or at least 3.75"?

[Tom Cornish]

Nothing cuts 4"? Or at least 3.75"?

Not a 10".

[Valentine Azbelle]

The fence on the Bosch saw will go to 24" so you can rip a 4X8 sheet anywhere the long way. Ripping sheet goods on any portable table saw requires 2 people to do safely and accurately, but can be done on the Bosch.

There is no way to rip MDF alone? Where am I gonna get a second person? :confused: I was gonna have the sheets to be cut into 3 pieces: 3x4, 3x4 and 2x4. If I'm ripping 4' long 2x2's I need to get another person?


Again, the question you need to answer is are you buying a tool just for your diffuser project, or are you intending to do more woodworking in the future? Every tool I've ever bought has paid for itself several times over because I'm a home improvement addict and they get constant use. Because of this I can justify some nice tools, because over a number of projects the tools will pay for themselves. If I only did occasional projects, it would be harder to justify spending $$$$.

I am not a very handy guy. My dad used to say that my hands grew out of my ass and for the most part he was right. :) Out of necessity I will do handy work here and there but I can't say that it's my passion. However when buying tools (or anything for that matter) I usually spend as much as I can afford. Mainly because even for one job I want a tool that works best. If I use it in the future - great. If not - I may sell it or at least it would have been a pleasant experience while I was using the tool. The problem at the moment is I've been unemployed for over a year and can't afford much. 2 years ago I'd probably buy a Kapex without giving it a second thought (that is if they were available back then). Now... money's tight. So I'd like to limit myself to as few necessary tools as possible. And of those I'd try to get the best ones (within reason financially).

[Valentine Azbelle]

Not a 10".

What then? Can you give me a make/model example please?

[Tom Cornish]

There is no way to rip MDF alone? Where am I gonna get a second person? :confused: I was gonna have the sheets to be cut into 3 pieces: 3x4, 3x4 and 2x4. If I'm ripping 4' long 2x2's I need to get another person?


Are you talking about 2"x2" pieces or sheet goods? Yes you can rip stick lumber by yourself. Full-size 4' X 8' sheet goods require two people with virtually any fixed saw. You could probably do 4' X 4' yourself or 2' X 8' yourself.



I am not a very handy guy. My dad used to say that my hands grew out of my ass and for the most part he was right. :) Out of necessity I will do handy work here and there but I can't say that it's my passion. However when buying tools (or anything for that matter) I usually spend as much as I can afford. Mainly because even for one job I want a tool that works best. If I use it in the future - great. If not - I may sell it or at least it would have been a pleasant experience while I was using the tool. The problem at the moment is I've been unemployed for over a year and can't afford much. 2 years ago I'd probably buy a Kapex without giving it a second thought (that is if they were available back then). Now... money's tight. So I'd like to limit myself to as few necessary tools as possible. And of those I'd try to get the best ones (within reason financially).

If it were me and this was the only project I wanted to do ever, I would take the $500 - $2000 I would spend on a table saw and spend some of it paying someone to help me do the cutting and keep the rest for non-tool purchases. Buying a big tool, especially one that can cut 4" in one pass is a money and storage space commitment.

The cheapest saw I can quickly find that will cut 4" + is:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-Table-Saw-Pro-Cabinet-Style-5-HP-Single-Phase-220V/G7209

This one is apparently on sale. Normally the next step up from a 10" saw is a 12" saw:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-5-HP-220V-Extreme-Series-Left-Tilt-Table-Saw/G0696X

This one cuts 4" as well.

Keep in mind that these are EXPENSIVE and HEAVY tools. Did I mention they're HEAVY? Like 700lbs heavy?? You have to look REALLY hard at how often you need to cut a full 4" in a table saw.

The more normal way to cut thick lumber is with a bandsaw such as this:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/The-Ultimate-14-Bandsaw/G0555

Keep in mind that bandsaws don't produce the same cut quality or uniformity of a table saw - in other words you can't replace a table saw with a band saw and do the same things well.

[Van Huskey]

MDF is a good idea, but be aware it is going to make the larger ones you talked about VERY VERY heavy.

I would have the store cut the MDF into smaller more manageable sizes for you. Even with a full on cabinet saw breaking down 4x8 MDF sheets is not easy for one person. Using a saw that doesn't weigh 300 pounds or more becomes downright dangerous, since the sheet is trying to push the saw over.

Of the portables the Bosch 4100 is THE saw, head and shoulders above the rest. The Dewalt is good as well but the Bosch is better for the same money.

The circular saw was mentioned because if you don't have the store cut the sheets down for you it will be needed along with a guide rail to break them down at home.


Another thought...

Get a Festool track saw and a inexpensive miter saw...

Make the 1.5" cuts with the Festool then just chop the pieces with the miter saw. Since grain isn't an issue with MDF you could just you the shorter rail that comes with the TS55 and crosscut the MDF instead of longways. The TS55 is $500 plus you need clamps (about $35) and you should be on your way.


There are several ways to do this and you might wanna get hands on at the stores to see which one you think works for you.

[Valentine Azbelle]

Are you talking about 2"x2" pieces or sheet goods? Yes you can rip stick lumber by yourself. Full-size 4' X 8' sheet goods require two people with virtually any fixed saw. You could probably do 4' X 4' yourself or 2' X 8' yourself.

Just to confirm, if I am ripping a 3' x 4' into 2" x 2" strips (or rather 1.5" x 1.5") it's OK to do alone? If I go MDF route I would have HD cut the 4' x 8' sheet into 3 pieces first. Otherwise I won't even be able to fit it in my car (yes, a car, as in a sedan, not a truck, an SUV, or even a station wagon :)).


If it were me and this was the only project I wanted to do ever, I would take the $500 - $2000 I would spend on a table saw and spend some of it paying someone to help me do the cutting and keep the rest for non-tool purchases. Buying a big tool, especially one that can cut 4" in one pass is a money and storage space commitment.

The cheapest saw I can quickly find that will cut 4" + is:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-Table-Saw-Pro-Cabinet-Style-5-HP-Single-Phase-220V/G7209

This one is apparently on sale. Normally the next step up from a 10" saw is a 12" saw:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-5-HP-220V-Extreme-Series-Left-Tilt-Table-Saw/G0696X

This one cuts 4" as well.

Keep in mind that these are EXPENSIVE and HEAVY tools. Did I mention they're HEAVY? Like 700lbs heavy??

Whoa!!! :eek: No, something like this is definitely out of question. I was thinking perhaps I might still use lumber (instead of MDF) and then I'd have to deal with 4x4 (3.5 x 3.5) pieces. Would be nice if my future table saw could cut through that.

[Tom Cornish]

Just to confirm, if I am ripping a 3' x 4' into 2" x 2" strips (or rather 1.5" x 1.5") it's OK to do alone? If I go MDF route I would have HD cut the 4' x 8' sheet into 3 pieces first. Otherwise I won't even be able to fit it in my car (yes, a car, as in a sedan, not a truck, an SUV, or even a station wagon :)).




You would be fine with those size pieces by yourself.

Note that if you're buying MDF from Home Depot it's going to be 3/4" thick so 2 pieces will be 1.5" give or take not 2".

[Van Huskey]

On the 12" (or more TS) very few people ever see a need for such a tool I would say more than 90% of people here (pros included) have "only" a 10" table saw. The very few times one needs more capacity than a 10" TS allows can be handled on a bandsaw.

If you do desire 1" MDF it is easily found at a real lumber supply, but it is REALLY heavy!

[Valentine Azbelle]

MDF is a good idea, but be aware it is going to make the larger ones you talked about VERY VERY heavy.

I was gonna make them modular anyway. I could simply divide the bigger ones into more sections.


Another thought...

Get a Festool track saw and a inexpensive miter saw...

Make the 1.5" cuts with the Festool then just chop the pieces with the miter saw. Since grain isn't an issue with MDF you could just you the shorter rail that comes with the TS55 and crosscut the MDF instead of longways. The TS55 is $500 plus you need clamps (about $35) and you should be on your way.


Yeah, the TS 55 looks mighty tempting. One thing I am not sure about is how will I be able to cut a 3"x4' into two 1.5" strips? Is that something that can easily be done on a table saw but cannot be done with the TS 55? Or can I just clamp the 3"x4' piece to a wider board and place the guard on that?

[Frank Martin]

Just get as many sheets of 3/4" MDF you need, glue two sheets together to get to 1.5" thickness, then use a 10" tablesaw to rip 1.5" wide strips (they would already be 1.5" thick). Crosscut to what ever length you need.

Personally, I would say try to find someone who has some woodworking experience to help you out initially. If you have not used a tablesaw before, and if you are not that handy, you may run into safety issues.

[Valentine Azbelle]

You would be fine with those size pieces by yourself.

Note that if you're buying MDF from Home Depot it's going to be 3/4" thick so 2 pieces will be 1.5" give or take not 2".

My block are actually 1.5" x 1.5" so that's perfect. I wonder if there's a way to get 1.5" thick MDF. Anybody?

[Steve Bishop]

Some info on MDF,

When cutting MDF there is a lot of fine sawdust, it gets everywhere. I usually cut MDF outside on the driveway.
MDF dust is not good for you, wear a dust mask till the dust has settled, its the fine dust you cant see that gets into your lungs.
It does cut real nice and leaves a good edge, no grain to worry about.
MDF is softer than lumber, scratch the edges to see what I'm talking about. Just be careful with it.
MDF will absorb water and expand like a sponge, apply some finish to avoid this.
MDF is heavy! If a pannel takes three 4X8 sheets of 3/4 MDF, its going to weigh over 200 lbs.
If you put screws into MDF make sure you use the correct size pilot hole. Otherwise it will split.

I'm not trying to scare you away from MDF, just providing some info so you can successfully work with it.

Steve

[Tom Cornish]

I was gonna make them modular anyway. I could simply divide the bigger ones into more sections.



Yeah, the TS 55 looks mighty tempting. One thing I am not sure about is how will I be able to cut a 3"x4' into two 1.5" strips? Is that something that can easily be done on a table saw but cannot be done with the TS 55? Or can I just clamp the 3"x4' piece to a wider board and place the guard on that?

Though track saws are useful, You're not going to get the repeatability and accuracy of a table saw. You have to reclamp every time you make a cut, and your cut is only as good as your clamping.

With a table saw the only thing you have to do to make a straight cut is make sure the board stays touching the fence. A track saw doesn't have that same luxury - it can be clamped anywhere and will cut any angle you clamp it to, which I maintain, is where you will get into trouble - it's extremely difficult to accurately clamp for the tolerances you apparently need.

[keith micinski]

5 pages seems a bit much to say "Get the best table saw you can get." Period. End of story. No matter what material you use, get table saw. No matter what tool you get, nothing is going to do it any better then a table saw. I also don't think anything will be any safer to use then a table saw either. Please start with getting a table saw and then move on from there.

[Greg Wittler]

Thanks Michael, I bookmarked that site for the future just in case I build any more subwoofers.

Greg

[Michael Wildt]

You're more than welcome Greg.

[Michael Wildt]

Valentine, if you're close to the Boston area we can work something out easily. If not you can get the MDF cut into 12" strips or just buy them in 12" wide pieces. Then get the slider saw and get to work.

[Valentine Azbelle]

Some info on MDF,

When cutting MDF there is a lot of fine sawdust, it gets everywhere. I usually cut MDF outside on the driveway.
MDF dust is not good for you, wear a dust mask till the dust has settled, its the fine dust you cant see that gets into your lungs.
It does cut real nice and leaves a good edge, no grain to worry about.
MDF is softer than lumber, scratch the edges to see what I'm talking about. Just be careful with it.
MDF will absorb water and expand like a sponge, apply some finish to avoid this.
MDF is heavy! If a pannel takes three 4X8 sheets of 3/4 MDF, its going to weigh over 200 lbs.
If you put screws into MDF make sure you use the correct size pilot hole. Otherwise it will split.

I'm not trying to scare you away from MDF, just providing some info so you can successfully work with it.

Steve

Thanks for the info. Especially on the screws. Good to know.

By the way, since there is no grain to worry about with MDF does it mean it's OK to do everything on a SCMS? If I get 12" MDF boards, cut them to size into 12" squares and then cut those into 1.5" x 12" pieces?

Edit: One more question: Does cutting MDF require a different blade? Or the same blade I'd use for wood is fine?

[Valentine Azbelle]

Though track saws are useful, You're not going to get the repeatability and accuracy of a table saw. You have to reclamp every time you make a cut, and your cut is only as good as your clamping.

With a table saw the only thing you have to do to make a straight cut is make sure the board stays touching the fence. A track saw doesn't have that same luxury - it can be clamped anywhere and will cut any angle you clamp it to, which I maintain, is where you will get into trouble - it's extremely difficult to accurately clamp for the tolerances you apparently need.

I am trying to decide between a Bosch 4100-09 and a Festool TS 55. The Bosch is cheaper (at least I can get it for less) and supposedly more versatile. But I've never used a table saw and to me it's very counterintuitive - I feel like the blade shoud be moving and the wood should be stationary. That in my opinion produces the most accurate result. With the TS 55 for one 4x8 MDF sheet I'd have to make about 60 cuts. That's actually not too bad. If it takes me even 2 minutes to line up and clamp each cut that's only 2 hours (I'm pretty sure it won't take me even that long). Also it's smaller than a table saw and I can hide it from the girlfriend. :) Can't hide the credit card statement though. :( I'm torn...

[Valentine Azbelle]

5 pages seems a bit much to say "Get the best table saw you can get." Period. End of story. No matter what material you use, get table saw. No matter what tool you get, nothing is going to do it any better then a table saw. I also don't think anything will be any safer to use then a table saw either. Please start with getting a table saw and then move on from there.

Yeah, I'm getting there. ;) Perhaps another couple of pages of convincing and I'll have to clear space for a new Bosch 4100-09. :)

[Van Huskey]

Though track saws are useful, You're not going to get the repeatability and accuracy of a table saw. You have to reclamp every time you make a cut, and your cut is only as good as your clamping.

.

There was a time when this was true but along came Festool and fixed the problem, this feature is pretty new though and has the normal Festool price.

[Valentine Azbelle]

Valentine, if you're close to the Boston area we can work something out easily. If not you can get the MDF cut into 12" strips or just buy them in 12" wide pieces. Then get the slider saw and get to work.

No, sorry, nowhere near Boston.

So you think it's OK to do with MDF what I was going to do originally? As in make 12" squares and then cut them how I want with a miter saw?

[Valentine Azbelle]

There was a time when this was true but along came Festool and fixed the problem, this feature is pretty new though and has the normal Festool price.

Yeah, I watched the videos on their website and that's exactly the kinda thing I'd prefer to use. If not for the price I wouldn't even hesitate.

The other factor to me is repeatability. I do need all strips to be of the same width. And with reclamping it might be difficult. Although I think if I cut one piece that is ideal 1.5" I could just use it to set up the rail for the rest of the cuts, no?

[Valentine Azbelle]

I know I'm asking an awful lot of questions (sometimes unrelated to the original post) but here's another one: does anybody know whether it's possible to get 1.5" thick MDF? If yes, where?

I know I can glue two .75" sheets together but I would prefer to work with 1.5" from factory.

[Van Huskey]

With the TS 55 for one 4x8 MDF sheet I'd have to make about 60 cuts. That's actually not too bad. If it takes me even 2 minutes to line up and clamp each cut that's only 2 hours (I'm pretty sure it won't take me even that long). Also it's smaller than a table saw and I can hide it from the girlfriend. :) Can't hide the credit card statement though. :( I'm torn...


If you want to cut the time down and let the accuracy go up just get the new Parallel guide extension system. http://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-rails/parallel-guide/parallel-guide-set-P00108.html


As I may or may not have mentioned the table saw would be my prefered tool to do this but the tracksaw is a much safer tool for someone that has not used a table saw.

You ask "One thing I am not sure about is how will I be able to cut a 3"x4' into two 1.5" strips?" regarding the Festool TS55. The TS55 nor TS75 will cut a full 3" with the track but I am unsure why if you use MDF would you be cutting anything thicker than 1 1/2".

The Festool is an expensive solution but it is much safer particularly for a beginner, but the table saw would not be bad as long as you have the sheets cut down to a easier to handle size. One thing about the Festool is once you are finished with the project you can get a good bit of money back out of it if you choose to sell it.

As for using the slider on the strips you COULD do it but it is going to get iffy as you get down to the last few cuts, still prefer a table saw with proper safety equipment. In the end the safest way to do this would be the Festool with the above linked accessory for accuracy.

[Valentine Azbelle]

If you want to cut the time down and let the accuracy go up just get the new Parallel guide extension system. http://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-rails/parallel-guide/parallel-guide-set-P00108.html

Wow, that's cool. And expensive! :eek: I don't know if I can spend that kind of money right now. At the moment it seems I might go with the Bosch table saw.


You ask "One thing I am not sure about is how will I be able to cut a 3"x4' into two 1.5" strips?" regarding the Festool TS55. The TS55 nor TS75 will cut a full 3" with the track but I am unsure why if you use MDF would you be cutting anything thicker than 1 1/2".

I didn't mean 3" thick, I meant 3" wide (.75" thick). As in when I have my last cut I will need to saw a 3" wide strip in half. The guide rail looks way wider than 3". I was asking how I would do that.

I am also hoping to find 1.5" thick MDF. Any idea where I can find that?


The Festool is an expensive solution but it is much safer particularly for a beginner, but the table saw would not be bad as long as you have the sheets cut down to a easier to handle size. One thing about the Festool is once you are finished with the project you can get a good bit of money back out of it if you choose to sell it.

Do you think it's OK to buy a used TS 55?


As for using the slider on the strips you COULD do it but it is going to get iffy as you get down to the last few cuts, still prefer a table saw with proper safety equipment. In the end the safest way to do this would be the Festool with the above linked accessory for accuracy.

I was just asking hypothetically. I am definitely getting either a table saw or the Festool.

Speaking of Festool... Their dust extraction thingies... Will they work with the Milwaukee and other non-Festool tools?

[keith micinski]

TABLE SAW, TABLE SAW, TABLE SAW!!!!! You can also look at the Dewalt 744. The fence is top of the line and is just as good as the Bosch. It will do exactly what you want it to do now and also will be able to do more projects in the future. It is portable, light, cheap (when you compare it to a Festool anyway), and you can usually find them used and in good condition also. Either of these saws would be perfect for the job no matter what material you use. If you go with the MDF the Dewalt does an excellent job on the dust collection with a simple shop vac hooked up to it.

[keith micinski]

Also with about 75 dollars in material you can make a cabinet like this and then the portable table saw really becomes a machine that can do almost anything you need it to while still maintaining the portability if need be. The track saw in some way is more versatile but overall I think you will find the table saw a more valuable tool to have.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=129450

[Michael Wildt]

No, sorry, nowhere near Boston.

So you think it's OK to do with MDF what I was going to do originally? As in make 12" squares and then cut them how I want with a miter saw?

Yep, that would limit your tool budget to a mitersaw. You could even rent one for this if you're not going to use it going forward. If nothing else rent one for half a day, buy a piece of mdf, like a shelf piece and cut away. It may make you more comfortable on the project before you go all out.

[Valentine Azbelle]

Also with about 75 dollars in material you can make a cabinet like this and then the portable table saw really becomes a machine that can do almost anything you need it to while still maintaining the portability if need be. The track saw in some way is more versatile but overall I think you will find the table saw a more valuable tool to have.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=129450

That's cool. Unfortunately I don't have space for something massive like that. I was thinking the Bosch 4100 with a Gravity-Rise. Maybe I'll make a table that I could move to the saw's table to increase the cutting area but I can't have something permanent like that. Thanks for the link though. Looks good.

[Valentine Azbelle]

Yep, that would limit your tool budget to a mitersaw. You could even rent one for this if you're not going to use it going forward. If nothing else rent one for half a day, buy a piece of mdf, like a shelf piece and cut away. It may make you more comfortable on the project before you go all out.

I wish I've seen this parallel guide thing with the TS 55 a week ago. I could do the whole project with just that. It would not be cheap (TS 55, the dust extractor and the parallel guide would run about $1300) but the precision you get plus the compact setup would be totally worth it. Also once I ripped MDF (or wood) into 1.5" wide strips I could line up a bunch of them between the rails and make like 20 blocks of the same length in one pass. Hm... With the miter slider I could probably cut 4 blocks at a time, maybe 8 (if I double stack them) but not 20. And the measuring won't be as easy as on the Festool. Damn, I want that thing!!! :rolleyes:

[David Thompson 27577]

I am new to both this forum and woodworking. I need to cut a bunch (like thousands) of 2x2 blocks of various lengths (from 1" to 12"). At first I thought I'd buy some 2x2's and cut them with a friends DeWalt. To my utter disappointment it turned out that the 2x2's are not only crooked (which I expected to a degree) but also not exactly square. So I decided to buy my own mider saw and cut more or less perfectly straight and square blocks out of 4"x6"x12" pieces of lumber (or whatever 4" lumber I can find cheap). I'd like some opinions on what would be good for this kind of thing. I need the ability to cut 4" vertically, 12" across, and the cuts need to be precise 90 degrees (the texture isn't as important but smooth would be nice of course).

I have read a bunch of reviews and so far settled on Milwaukee 6955-20 12" slider. Anybody has any input on my choice? Suggestions? Tips? Thanks.

You're talking about ripping boards to width, then cutting them to length.

Ripping should NEVER be done on a miter saw. A table saw or a band saw is the safe answer there.

Cutting to length is where a miter saw excels.


I have a Hitachi 10" sliding miter saw. It was dead-on accurate right out of the box 6 years ago. Its been tossed in and out of my pickup truck about 400 times since then, going with me to various jobsites.

And it's only needed minor adjustment once.

[David Thompson 27577]

I will ask in the store what they would recommend. But a lumber yard I talked to said that they would rip it for like $1.38 per foot but they can't guarantee the straightness. What's the point, if they can't guarantee?

The reason that they can't guarantee straight flat square stock is because wood is a rather cantankerous material. It shrinks and swells with moisture (but not along its length).

It warps, cups, and twists during the drying process, and can unwarp, uncup, and untwist too.

And it can develop "internal stress". This stress can sometimes be relieved during the cutting (ripping) process, and when that happens, a straight board goes into the saw, and two warped boards come out.

Another factor which makes this even more likely, is that "lumber yards" stock construction-grade lumber, which has only been dried to about 19% moisture. Also, construction grade lumber is softwood that has been grown very quickly, which can increase the internal stress.

If you could afford it, I'd recommend finding a hardwood supplier. Hardwoods are (generally) dried to about 8%, and are grown much more naturally.


But again I'll emphasize -- don't try to rip with a miter saw. Its just not safe!

[Valentine Azbelle]

The reason that they can't guarantee straight flat square stock is because wood is a rather cantankerous material. It shrinks and swells with moisture (but not along its length).

It warps, cups, and twists during the drying process, and can unwarp, uncup, and untwist too.

And it can develop "internal stress". This stress can sometimes be relieved during the cutting (ripping) process, and when that happens, a straight board goes into the saw, and two warped boards come out.

Another factor which makes this even more likely, is that "lumber yards" stock construction-grade lumber, which has only been dried to about 19% moisture. Also, construction grade lumber is softwood that has been grown very quickly, which can increase the internal stress.

If you could afford it, I'd recommend finding a hardwood supplier. Hardwoods are (generally) dried to about 8%, and are grown much more naturally.


But again I'll emphasize -- don't try to rip with a miter saw. Its just not safe!

For now I have settled on MDF (instead of wood). Found .75" thick boards so far. Would like to find 1.5" thick but have no idea where to look for it.

Yes, I will either buy a table saw (most likely a Bosch 4100) or a Festool TS 55 with the parallel guide system.

[keith micinski]

You really shouldn't limit yourself to just the 4100. The dewalt has, I think a better fence and can probably be had much cheaper. Whe you have a light contractors saw like these you really don't need any of the fancy bases with lifts and wheels. You are gong to use it stationary and when you are done you are going to store It stationary. If you get a deal on the base great, but that shouldn't really factor in to your desicion.

[Michael Wildt]

That thick is most likely custom order if it even exists. I believe you can get particle board that thick. Try a local lumber yard or a specialty store. Woodfinder below is pretty handy.

http://www.woodfinder.com/

One place that lists common sizes:

http://www.mainecoastlumber.com/mdf.shtml

[Valentine Azbelle]

That thick is most likely custom order if it even exists. I believe you can get particle board that thick. Try a local lumber yard or a specialty store. Woodfinder below is pretty handy.

http://www.woodfinder.com/

One place that lists common sizes:

http://www.mainecoastlumber.com/mdf.shtml

Thanks for the links. Good info.

[Valentine Azbelle]

Thanks for all the advice guys. You may be happy to know that last night I ordered a Bosch 4100-09. Perhaps I should have waited until the next day after I had a good night's sleep but I don't beat around the bush when it comes to spending money (I really should have been a woman). :D I ordered my 4100 with the Gravity Rise. It was only like $50 more so I figured why not? If I didn't already order the miter saw I probably would have gone the Festool route - TS 55, the vacuum and the parallel guide system. Would have cost me roughly the same as the Milwaukee slider and the Bosch table saw (including some accessories, stands, blades, etc.). For my project and my particular situation the Festool probably would have been better but... a table saw is just manlier. :) I will probably start another thread to get advice on table saw accessories and safety. Thanks much to all.