Nordic Tool and Saw review and new shaper cutters.

[Glen Butler]

Anyone who frequents SMC will know that David DeCristoforo will recommend Nordic Tool and Saw to anyone. I worried about getting a custom shaper cutter from someone so far away and whom I could not meet with in person. I have a top notch sharpening and tooling service nearby. Nordic had a better price, mainly because he didn't have to charge me tax, but that was not the deal maker. I am willing pay more for quality and peace of mind nearly everytime. So it was David's recommendation that set my mind at ease, because I value his opinion here on SMC.

Dewey (president) always promptly returned my calls. If I missed him he would tell me when he would call again in a message. The receptionist also told me when I could expect a call. He also was prompt in giving me the estimate and returning all e-mails. It always amazes me when I contact a company and never get a return call. I don't like to beg someone to let me give them money. I was told shipment would happen on or before Feb 3 with before underlined. I kept expecting an e-mail confirming shipment and I kept waiting for the payment to post to my bank. On the 4th I called them to confirm shipment and was told that it would ship that day. Perhaps he felt it was not important because he had already told me when it would ship and with shipping taking a few days, whats a day.

I was looking for a custom handrail shaper cutter in a two piece design, and I was worried about getting it made right. Nordic sent their catalog about a week after I pulled the trigger and I found that the two piece was a regular practice for them, and that got me excited.

Shipping was prompt. UPS just came. They are not as pretty as other cutters I have but hey its custom tooling. My biggest concerne is carbide quality, bearing quality and tooling balancing. Will post more information on quality after I have a chance to use the cutters in the next week or two.

So far Nordic is the way I expect a business to be run. Easy to contact and short response times.

[David DeCristoforo]

I think you will find that the quality of the tooling is on par with the quality of the service. They don't paint their cutter bodies a pretty color but I have never noticed that causing any reduction in performance! Also, when you get your order there will be a catalog in the box. Nordic has one of the most extensive selections of "stock off the shelf" cutters I have ever come across.

[Peter Quinn]

Looks like a beauty I too find the mill finish works as well as the fancy colors, though some claim the paint is some non stick dupont stuff?

Mind my inquiring what a set of custom three wing cutters of that size cost?

[Glen Butler]

No problem I don't mind saying. That setup right there cost me $895.00. Not really anything more than their stock handrail profile once you add the bearing. The color doesn't bother me at all. I would prefer it unpainted if that gets it to me cheaper. Yes, David the catalog is very impressive. They've got tooling that I didn't know existed or was even possible.

[Richard Blaine]

I've met Dewey in person. He was at the "Will Call" counter.

My experience was as positive as yours was. The only difference was that I was spending less than $100.00. So it looks like that's just the way he treats all of his customers.

And your're right, it's nice to be treated that way as a customer.

[Glen Butler]

Well now I feel like I am up a creek without a paddle. The cutters were made wrong but the blame is all on me because I gave the go ahead for the design Dewey gave me. After using the cutters today and physically seeing the profile I realize that the angle of the top cutter is really shallow. I see now that the image dewey sent me to confirm is not them image I sent him. I thought he had simply laid my drawing out and showed me where the cutter would be separated, but it was actually his rendition of my drawing. I worried about going with a company so far away because the hassle of having to ship it off for sharpening or re-tipping. I think from now on I will keep my business local, even if it costs me more. I would gladly pay extra for minus the headache.

The headache continues with the fact that the bearing I received didn't seat at the bottom of the spindle. Little did I know this, until after the the two cutters were allowed to slam into each other destroying the carbide of the upper cutter. I am not one to pass blame so again I blame myself. I was responsible to make sure everything was installed properly. Though never before has a cutter become stuck just short of the spindle seat. Nordics' cutters seat just fine, which I checked after the fact, and all of my other cutters seat just fine too. So I am left wondering -- is it the bearing to blame? Shouldn't Nordic be responsible to sell products that work, or at least help somewhat with the damage caused by such. Now I have to ship the cutter back and for $400 get it retipped. That was the cost of a new cutter.

Don't get me wrong the cutters are fine as far as cutters are made and Nordic is a great company, but so is AA Carbide here in SLC.

[David DeCristoforo]

I'm not clear on what you mean when you say "the bearing...didn't seat at the bottom of the spindle" or how that would allow the cutters "...to slam into each other..."

Usually there would be a spacer (shim) at the bottom of the cutter stack between the spindle base and the bearing to prevent the bearing race from binding. And another between the bearing and the cutter to prevent the cutter from touching the bearing race. It sounds to me like you did not have the spindle stacked properly resulting in (or) the nut not being tightened down enough to lock the cutters in place.

Anyway, I'm sure they will make it right with you. I'm sorry about you having a bad experience with them because I have never had one and assumed (dangerous I know) that no one else would either. I do know that they have never made a cutter for me without first sending me a drawing of the profile to approve.

PS: FWIW, I always tighten my spindle nuts with a breaker bar so I can really honk down on it. Especially with big knives. There's nothing scarier than a shaper cutter coming loose!

[Glen Butler]

Maybe I am doing it wrong, but a spacer is not always necessary. Sometimes protruding carbide may prevent direct use, but sometimes the cutter has the "spacer" built in. This particular stack didn't need a spacer. The base of the spindle only touches the inner race. The body of the lower cutter only hits the inner race. No spacers required. The outer race was free to move and it was capable of performing its' function as a rub collar. When I wrenched down the nut it was tight. I also "honk" down, though not with a breaker bar. I have done larger and more complex stacks just fine.

For some reason the bearing was not forced to the bottom of the spindle, inspite of the fact that I had indeed wrenched on the nut. The bearing got snug on the spindle because its' inside diameter was too small, or my spindle has a slight taper. Which component was at fault is debatable because clearly my spindle has a taper if even by the smallest of margins because the bearing slid on to a certain point then stopped. But this bearing is the only thing to ever not fit on the spindle properly. Because the bearing was not at the bottom of the spindle, once additional forces were applied to the cutters the bearing must have moved and allowed the stack to become loose, thus cutter A and cutter B were sliding independent of each other and when the wood came they reacted differently and the carbide snapped. After the incident I inspected the stack and found space below the bearing. The bearing was stuck on the spindle with space below it and I had to use the weight of the quill to get it off. A quick rub of the inner race with a 1" tube wrapped in sand paper and the bearing seated just fine.

Clearly, terms like honked and wrenched are relative and really how many foot pounds did I apply. For that I don't have a clear answer. Could it be user error? Sure. I am not infallible. So yet another reason for the title of the above post. School of hard knocks. I am not blaming Nordic. What I do regret is using Nordic because instead of being able to get a rush job locally, I have to ship it out. If I had had it made locally I could run it down and they would already have the information needed to get the problem fixed quickly.

As far as the cutter being made incorrectly: I never "approved" a drawing. Drawings were sent to me which showed the relation of cutter A and B and the BB guides. But I never disapproved of these drawings either. Simply a matter of miscommunication. Perhaps he thought I approved because I didn't disapprove. And all the while, I thought his drawings were simply an edit of what I sent to him laying out the orientation of the cutting surfaces. I didn't know that he had redrawn it. There were no measurements on his drawing for me to even compare whether it was correct, so I assumed he used my measurements. Again another assumption, that was incorrect.

Sorry for the rant -- I have been going nearly 48 hours of no sleep, trying to get the job done for which I needed this cutter, all the while using other more difficult methods to carve the top profile into the handrail for a customer who needs it done by weeks' end. So this doesn't help my outlook right now. I'm going to bed.

[Larry Edgerton]

On my MiniMax shaper the base of the spindle has a slight radius. This is done to strengthen that spot and get rid of a stress riser that would be created otherwise. It is the way the best racing crankshafts are machined as well, for the same reason, to eliminate the stress riser.

I always use one small spacer at the bottom of the spindle as the factory spacers have the edges eased to match this. Many cutters and bearings do not have a provision machined in to allow for this, just a very square edge. Maybe this is where the bearing problem came from?

Sorry that you had trouble. I have had good service from Nordic so far and will continue to use them. It is hard to do business with companys so far away but in my case being out in the middle of nowhere, I have no choice.

As far as the no paint thing, I paint mine myself because it makes it easier to see the cutter as it is in the cut. I use Oella saw and Tool as well and their rebuilts are always bright colors, something I like. Just personal preference.

If I am going to have trouble with a job it will always happen on one with a lot of pressure, so I try to avoid that situation. The job is dangerous enough without having something unrelated to the work making me work outside of my normal habits. Its hard for me to block that out. I know it can't always be avoided, especially in this economy, but pressure in a custom shop, at least for me, is never a good thing.

I wish you the best of luck on your project, but for Pete's sake don't let the deadline force you to make a mistake that hurts you or you bank account.

Larry

[Joe Calhoon]

Glen – I don’t know if I understand how you are seating the bearing but you should always have spacers top and bottom of the bearing only touching the inner race. We use 1mm thick spacers for this, stacked as needed.

Tight at spindle bottom is a good indication you have spun a cutter.

20 years ago we used a lot of Nordic and LRH cutters. We went insert a few years ago but think braised cutters are still useful for custom jobs where you want something better than a corrugated knife but don’t want to spend the money for inserts.

Some things you have to remember with custom braised heads is they are dangerous in large diameters, will probably not have the correct cutting angles and you should use a 1 ¼” minimum shaper.

Hope this helps,
Joe

[David DeCristoforo]

FWIW, I always have a spacer at the bottom of the cutter stack. My Delta shaper spindles all have a slight fillet right at the bottom. But you said that your bearing did not slide all the way to the bottom of the spindle which would indicate some variation in the diameter of the spindle. The bearing should be measured to see if the I.D. is correct. And your spindle should be checked also. I did not mean to imply that you were "negligent" or that Nordic is infallible. But something obviously went wrong and you need to figure out exactly what. If Nordic is at fault, they should make if right as should any reputable vendor. As Joe mentioned, you may have (or someone may have) had a "spun cutter" at one point. What that means is that for one reason or another, the cutter is bound but the spindle kept turning. This will actually cause metal from the cutter to bind to the spindle effectively increasing the O.D. of the spindle. In extreme cases, the cutter can actually become welded to the spindle or bound so tight that it takes a hydraulic press to remove it. Again, I'm not trying to imply that you effed up. But it is always a good idea to figure out just what went wrong so that it can be prevented in the future.

[Glen Butler]

A spun cutter would create lines and dull spots around the spindle, but the spindle was shiny and clean. As said, every 1" component i own slides to the base of the spindle freely. Hopefully someone around here with more experience than myself can give me a better idea of what happened. I am going to take the cutter AA Carbide and see what they can do. I will take my spindle also and maybe he will be able to see the problem. I think it will take measuring devices accurate to .0001 to see the problem.

Joe, how large is large when talking about a braised cutter? What makes them dangerous and why would the cutting angles be less than desirable?

[Joe Calhoon]

Glen,
A lightly spun cutter can leave no marks. (Don’t ask me how I know this.) If the bearing goes down and tightens up at the bottom I would suspect this is the case but it could also be a defective shaft. If not too bad you can work it with some fine sandpaper or Emory cloth. We bought a used SAC profiler that has this issue and still working on it. On quality machines shafts are made to be at the right diameter or slightly under. The cutters are made slightly over. This varies between manufactures. I have had reduction bushings and rub collars that were too tight for a hand assembly. Some of your cutters could fit even if you have a defect at the bottom of shaft.

I would say 5” and above get dangerous for hand feeding with this type cutter. With the bearing I assume curve work hand fed. These cutter are more for mechanical feed, have no chip limiters, big gullets not always a circular shape etc. When I started making doors in the 80s I bought a bunch of custom Nordic door heads and panel raisers. These were 5” to 8” diameter. After a little use the bearings were gone on the Delta ¾ and 1” shapers we had. All shaper heads are dangerous but these are more dangerous because of kickback in manual feeding. I have curved shaped a lot of stock with these and still have all my fingers, just be careful! There is no comparison to curve shaping with a device like the Aigner Bowmould Master and well balanced insert cutters. But it is still possible to have an accident with the best equipment.

By cutting angles I mean cutter geometry in general. Not saying Nordic is incorrect but the newer style heads optimize in both directions the angle of the knives. You can see what I mean by the pictures of a couple Garniga insert heads and the Nordic cutter with the straight up and down knives. By the way the Nordic head in the picture has seen a lot of miles; it is on the second set of carbide.

Joe

[Larry Edgerton]

My Delta shaper spindles all have a slight fillet right at the bottom. .

Fillet, that is the word I couldn't think of.........:)