Considering a Domino for Cabinet construction

[Chris Bruno]

I would like some input from other members about the usage of a Domino for cabinets.

I have to build ~12 cabinets for an upcoming project.. I was originally planning to just build them the same way I've always built them, but wondered if a Domino would save me noticeable time on a project like this...if it can, I can easily justify spending the money right now, but I'm waffling on it as I think about whether it will really make a difference.

Normally, I build them with Dados/Rabbits, glue and screw the carcasses together, pocket holes to screw the face frames together and then biscuits, glue and clamps to fasten the face frames to the carcass.

As far as I can tell, using a domino/butt joints for the carcass and using dominos for the face frame to cabinet has the following pros/cons:

Pros:
-Much lower possibility of error to screw up sheet good lengths due to depths of dados (Believe it or not, this is a big plus for me)
-Saved time for no need to setup Dado blade for proper width of cabinet
-Domino with the little rail-thingy is a lot more user friendly for getting repeatable positions between the carcass and the face frame than the biscuit joiner (or router w/ slot cutter if I do it like Norm)

Cons:
-Gluing with the Domino seems like it might be more of a nuissance than with the dados
-Trying to use screws with the dominoes might not work as well because the plywood might be more likely to split without a dado to hold it together
-Putting in mid-span carcass 'dividers' might be more problematic to get the dominoes accurately positioned than cutting dados on the T/S

Thoughts?

[John Lanciani]

Hi Chris,

That's how I use my domino the most, for cabinets. I combine them with either confirmat screws (preferred) or pocket hole screws (if the sides will show). It's fast, easy, and no clamps are required. I don't use a ton of glue in the domino slots, especially if I'm using the confirmats since they're rock solid.

John

[jason lambert]

Get the domino it is fast and easy and strong! I mainly use mind for cabnets. Love the tool use it on basically every project, it also makes dry fitting much faster becasue you can just press the stuff together and it holds dry. + I hate the look of pocket screws when someone sees them the domino just looks more profecanial and the dust collection is also nice when doing alot of joints.

[Paul Johnstone]

In my experience, it's a lot easier to assemble the caracass with dados.

That spacer accessory on the domino is totally useless. It's not accurate.

They recommend that when you are doing several dominos in series, to make one side with wider slots.. this throws off the spacer accessory.. so even if the spacer accessory was accurate, the entire process is flawed.

You can make it work by marking pencil marks, just like a biscuit cutter.

Don't get me wrong, the domino is nice. If you don't want pocket screw holes in your face frame, it's ideal. I think it's a poor choice for plywood carcass construction compared to dadoing. It's great for face frames though.

[Brice Burrell]

+1 for the Domino. I clamp then use 23 gauge pinner to pin both side of the Domino tenon to hold everything together, remove the clamps and move to the next one. No screws needed.

I did a short little write up on my site about the Domino for carcass construction. http://burrellcustomcarpentry.com/subpage43.html

[Brice Burrell]

In my experience, it's a lot easier to assemble the caracass with dados.

That spacer accessory on the domino is totally useless. It's not accurate.

They recommend that when you are doing several dominos in series, to make one side with wider slots.. this throws off the spacer accessory.. so even if the spacer accessory was accurate, the entire process is flawed.

You can make it work by marking pencil marks, just like a biscuit cutter.

Don't get me wrong, the domino is nice. If you don't want pocket screw holes in your face frame, it's ideal. I think it's a poor choice for plywood carcass construction compared to dadoing. It's great for face frames though.

Paul, if you're having problems wit the Domino cross stops (spacer accessory) it likely because you're not using a wide mortise in both pieces. I measured the error in me cross stops and did the math. While I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, I know you could a pretty long run before the error didn't allow the tenons to line up. If you index your mortises from both ends of your pieces you can double the number of tenons before the error catches up with you.

The cross stops work as advertised, problem is most people don't know the correct way to use them. Too bad because these things make a big difference in things like cabinet construction.

[Chris Bruno]

+1 for the Domino. I clamp then use 23 gauge pinner to pin both side of the Domino tenon to hold everything together, remove the clamps and move to the next one. No screws needed.

I did a short little write up on my site about the Domino for carcass construction. http://burrellcustomcarpentry.com/subpage43.html

Hi Brice,

Honestly, if it weren't for your write up, I'm not sure if I'd be considering the domino at all. :-) That said, there were still a few things that left me curious if its as much of a timesaver as I'm hoping it would be.

Do you glue up the whole joint or just the tenons? I like to use 2 sided pre-finished maple ply for the carcasses and with the Domino, I'm not sure if glueing the whole joint would work that well.. If gluing just the dominoes worked well, that might be interesting.

Also, when using a straight edge to help align the domino for mid-span joints, do you think you'd be able to use the cutting side of your festool rail to hold the domino against? (I have the Dewalt tracksaw... one of the reasons I bought it over the festool was because it lets me cut on both sides of the rail, which is convenient in my smallish shop.. Thus, it has the cutting 'edge' on both sides). It also seems like this might be more error prone that setting the fence on the T/S and ripping two identically spaced and square dados on opposing sides of the cabinet.... How do you help make this go faster?

Thanks for everybody's feedback!

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

+2 for the domino! For wide cabinets like base units, I throw some pocket screws in between the dominoes towards the middle, then there's no need for clamping. Also, like others have said, there's very little glue needed. In fact, they fit so tight, I have about a dozen dominoes that have been sanded for dry fitting. I distinguish these from the other dominoes with an "X" marked on them with a sharpie. Even with pliers, I've not been able to remove some dry fit dominoes. I had to cut them off, sand smooth and re-machine the mortise.

PS I was under the impression that dadoes weaken plywood.

[Paul Johnstone]

Paul, if you're having problems wit the Domino cross stops (spacer accessory) it likely because you're not using a wide mortise in both pieces. I measured the error in me cross stops and did the math. While I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, I know you could a pretty long run before the error didn't allow the tenons to line up. If you index your mortises from both ends of your pieces you can double the number of tenons before the error catches up with you.

The cross stops work as advertised, problem is most people don't know the correct way to use them. Too bad because these things make a big difference in things like cabinet construction.

Thanks Bruce. I guess I never thought of trying it that way.
I will give it another chance.

I guess part of my point is that if you use a domino to position the shelves, you are still going to have to clamp a straight edge to the cabinet side. If you are going to do that, it's just run a router and make a dado. I then rabbit the ends of the shelves to fit the dados.

But at least now, I know it's possible to use the domino in this application. Thanks for the feedback.

[Frank Martin]

Sure you can use the Domino. Even before Domino came on the market I have been using loose tenon joinery, but Domino makes it so convenient and accurate, I use it a lot more often than I used to. I got the Domino when it first came out and made a 10-drawer cherry dresser almost exclusively using Domino joinery. The only other joinery I used was the rebate for the carcase back panel. Everything else including the drawers were made using the Domino. It is one tool I feel very comfortable saying it changed the way I build furniture as a hobbyist.

[Brice Burrell]

Chris, I glue the tenons only. I don't think using the cutting edge of your DeWalt rail would work. I use the backside of my Festool rail on the MFT table so it doesn't need to be clamped. You could easily make a hinged jig to act line the hinged rail on the MFT table.

Once I get setup the mortising process goes fast. I setup every ting so all of the parts are interchangeable. In other words, the mortises are all spaced the same so a piece will work as a top or bottom of an upper cabinet and so on.

With a little forethought the process can be very fast. (I really should spend some time to update my writeup with a more detailed explanation of my setup and process).

[johnny means]

This is one of my older post concerning the Domino.

I borrowed a friends domino jointer once in order to build up four complex face frames each requiring 54 tenons. I can tell you the joints wer strong enough that i sorely regretted dry fitting everything. I can't imagine anything short of catastrophic failure of the rails and or styles would ever allow any movement in these joints.

I believe the actual joint made by the Dominoes is just as strong if not stronger (due to the precise fit) than a traditional mortise and tenon (assuming tenons of similar size). That being said, it seems to me that having two mortises instead of one does create two possible points of breakage thus increasing the odds of failure due to splitting of the joined pieces.

IMO Domino joints are plenty strong for anything I'll ever build(and I build children's furniture).

Not to mention i was able to mill and glue over 200 loose tenon joints in just over 12 hours (my typical workday). I had already allotted and billed for a solid weeks labor for this task. If the Domino had cost me $2500, it would have paid for itself that day. I have not purchased one yet, but the moment I get another job requiring mortised joints I'll be off to Woodcraft to buy my own.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1213034)

[michael case]

The Festool is easy to use, and its absolutely great for plywood carcase work. Also, as others have mentioned, if you can combine it with Kreg pocket screws you can throw your clamps away and really knock very strong cases. I love this machine for this application. However, I caution against believing this is the final answer for you floating tenons projects. There are some problems with the Domino. I have posted extensively about the Domino mortiser on the Festool website where any criticism of Festool is never welcome. I got nothing, but grief for discussing the problems of the Domino and so gave up on the Festoolian people. But I’m willing to help a fellow on Sawmill. So here goes. One: the the system for setting the fence height is idiotic. Instead of a rack and pinion and guide rods like you see on the Porter-cable biscuit joiner. They use a dovetailed way system with a clamping lever. A common problem with this is that the fence can slide during use resulting in completely misaligned mortises. Some machines have this problem some don’t. Festool does not provide any real answers though I believe have found the cause and a cure (I will discuss this with you later if you wish). Two: the dominoes themselves do not hold all that well. Fine woodworking did a strength test on joints and the domino came in just above biscuits. I extensively replicated their tests and found they were correct. I also found the problem here too. The problem is the domino tenon itself. The domino is a small beech tenon with about 3/4” wide glue surface. This limited surface is impressed with a pattern like a biscuit. But unlike a biscuit which is a compressed chip that really swells up when installed in a joint with water base glue, the solid beech dominos do not. The impressed pattern leaves gaps in the actual wood to wood contact. The result is that the 3/4” wide glue surface is reduced by about half producing a weak joint. The answer here is simple: Make two mortises that line up to make one wide mortise. Throw the domino tenons out and use your own smooth, wide, shop made tenons. I do this all the time and it makes a really great joint. Another thing to keep in mind though is the Domino only cuts a 1” deep mortise. But of course for plywood carcases just use the dominoes they are ideal for this. The Domino joiner certainly has an important place in the shop and I use it extensively, but you should consider its limitations. Anyway, you will always new use for this machine and when it comes to carcase construction you wonder how you got along without it.

[Frank Martin]

Michael,

I have had cases where my mortises did not line up. I did not invest a ton of time to understand the cause. The few times it happened I chalked it up to user error as I use the machine so infrequently. Can you please explain the cause and more importantly the cure you have found for this.

Regarding domino tenons with impressions, what you say makes sense from a theoretical standpoint, however I always thought the impressions are so shallow, the glue layer will not be that thick to result in a weak joint. So, other than saying I personally have not had any domino joints failing yet, I don't have much else to say.

I hear you regarding the attitude on FOG, which is now owned by Festool and I no longer visit the forum. I am hoping we will keep the discussion here civil and useful so that we can all benefit from your learnings.






The Festool is easy to use, and its absolutely great for plywood carcase work. Also, as others have mentioned, if you can combine it with Kreg pocket screws you can throw your clamps away and really knock very strong cases. I love this machine for this application. However, I caution against believing this is the final answer for you floating tenons projects. There are some problems with the Domino. I have posted extensively about the Domino mortiser on the Festool website where any criticism of Festool is never welcome. I got nothing, but grief for discussing the problems of the Domino and so gave up on the Festoolian people. But I’m willing to help a fellow on Sawmill. So here goes. One: the the system for setting the fence height is idiotic. Instead of a rack and pinion and guide rods like you see on the Porter-cable biscuit joiner. They use a dovetailed way system with a clamping lever. A common problem with this is that the fence can slide during use resulting in completely misaligned mortises. Some machines have this problem some don’t. Festool does not provide any real answers though I believe have found the cause and a cure (I will discuss this with you later if you wish). Two: the dominoes themselves do not hold all that well. Fine woodworking did a strength test on joints and the domino came in just above biscuits. I extensively replicated their tests and found they were correct. I also found the problem here too. The problem is the domino tenon itself. The domino is a small beech tenon with about 3/4” wide glue surface. This limited surface is impressed with a pattern like a biscuit. But unlike a biscuit which is a compressed chip that really swells up when installed in a joint with water base glue, the solid beech dominos do not. The impressed pattern leaves gaps in the actual wood to wood contact. The result is that the 3/4” wide glue surface is reduced by about half producing a weak joint. The answer here is simple: Make two mortises that line up to make one wide mortise. Throw the domino tenons out and use your own smooth, wide, shop made tenons. I do this all the time and it makes a really great joint. Another thing to keep in mind though is the Domino only cuts a 1” deep mortise. But of course for plywood carcases just use the dominoes they are ideal for this. The Domino joiner certainly has an important place in the shop and I use it extensively, but you should consider its limitations. Anyway, you will always new use for this machine and when it comes to carcase construction you wonder how you got along without it.

[michael case]

Hi Frank,

Your being very civil which is very nice. Sawmill Creek is a different place than FOG. I did'nt mean to alarm anyone - as in everthing is going to go loose. But for your own benefit, if ever have some time, join, some 3/4x2x18" with a #8 domino to make a simple L. Let it dry three days. Clamp it in a vice so you can put you can lever one of the arms and you will get a sense of what I mean about the strength. Do the same with a joint made by forming an 1 1/2" mortise (using the Domino joiner) install a nice smooth oak floating tenon of your own creation and see what you think. Besides being stronger you can save a bundle on dominos. But as to the slipping, its easy to slip up and sometimes have a misaligned domino. But there is a problem where its slips over time and each successive mortise is slightly lower than the last. If your having this problem (I lost $200 in meranti due to this) then there are two things to try. One is to simply increase the factory adjustment on the clamp. Sometimes this works. But sometimes the problem is that the bridge on the angle guide is slightly warped. This keeps the dovetailed ways from clamping fully. A fair number of them come from the factory like this, though if you drop it that can also do it. Sometimes a little careful pressure is all it takes to straighten this out. I've actually owned two Domino joiners. The first had this problem right out of the box. It also had a host of other common problems (the misaligned centering guide, flawed dovetails for the pin guides extensions, the super weak clamping lever for the angle guide) I finally returned it. The new one had several of the little problems. But, the guide did not slip. That is until I dropped it. There was no immediately visible damage. But it immediately started slipping! This was when I found the real cause of this problem. After careful examination I noticed the Bridge was bent ever so little. I straightened it with a bar clamp and that was it - no more slip. This was over a year ago and it still locks with moderate pressure as it should and does not slip. The bridge is cast aluminum. You have no doubt had experience with this material and know yourself of its tendency to warp upon cooling after its cast and how little it takes to bend it. IMO the joiner would have been way better with a tried and true rack and pinion with chromed steel post system. For the price it should have been done this way. The slipping problem is very common and if you have it I hope this will help you adjust the machine and end the problem. Anyway, on a positive note. This is incredible new technology and can be put lots and lots of uses. One of my favorite uses is case work, but its also a dream come true for reinforcing stub tenon cope and bead doors.

[Bill Borchardt]

I've had great results using the Domino - fast, accurate, strong joints and virtually dust free. +1 on dry fitting.

I'm not a professional - just a hobbyist.

Billbo
Smyrna GA

[Frank Martin]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the tip on potential problems with the bridge and fence slip. I think my machine is fine, because when I got it the first time, I checked if the clamp worked properly by trying to move the fence when it was clamped and it did not move. I will check again, but I think my machine is fine.

Regarding Domino joint strength, if I get a chance I will test the joint as you describe. However, in a lot of these cases, I feel the joint strength is an issue that is overblown. In most furniture pieces (except chairs, etc) joints will never be subjected to such high loads. Also, one of the value Domino offers to me is the pre made tenons. I had been using loose tenon joinery using a Woodrat for creating mortises and making my own tenon stock long before Domino was introduced. While it does not take a lot of time to make the tenons, I prefer the perfectly-sized tight fitting pre-made tenons for convenience. In the case of cabinet construction I think Domino joints are plenty strong given the number of tenons in a given piece of case. So far I have made a bookcase, a 10 drawer dresser, and a coffee table using the Domino and never had any joint failures yet.





Hi Frank,

Your being very civil which is very nice. Sawmill Creek is a different place than FOG. I did'nt mean to alarm anyone - as in everthing is going to go loose. But for your own benefit, if ever have some time, join, some 3/4x2x18" with a #8 domino to make a simple L. Let it dry three days. Clamp it in a vice so you can put you can lever one of the arms and you will get a sense of what I mean about the strength. Do the same with a joint made by forming an 1 1/2" mortise (using the Domino joiner) install a nice smooth oak floating tenon of your own creation and see what you think. Besides being stronger you can save a bundle on dominos. But as to the slipping, its easy to slip up and sometimes have a misaligned domino. But there is a problem where its slips over time and each successive mortise is slightly lower than the last. If your having this problem (I lost $200 in meranti due to this) then there are two things to try. One is to simply increase the factory adjustment on the clamp. Sometimes this works. But sometimes the problem is that the bridge on the angle guide is slightly warped. This keeps the dovetailed ways from clamping fully. A fair number of them come from the factory like this, though if you drop it that can also do it. Sometimes a little careful pressure is all it takes to straighten this out. I've actually owned two Domino joiners. The first had this problem right out of the box. It also had a host of other common problems (the misaligned centering guide, flawed dovetails for the pin guides extensions, the super weak clamping lever for the angle guide) I finally returned it. The new one had several of the little problems. But, the guide did not slip. That is until I dropped it. There was no immediately visible damage. But it immediately started slipping! This was when I found the real cause of this problem. After careful examination I noticed the Bridge was bent ever so little. I straightened it with a bar clamp and that was it - no more slip. This was over a year ago and it still locks with moderate pressure as it should and does not slip. The bridge is cast aluminum. You have no doubt had experience with this material and know yourself of its tendency to warp upon cooling after its cast and how little it takes to bend it. IMO the joiner would have been way better with a tried and true rack and pinion with chromed steel post system. For the price it should have been done this way. The slipping problem is very common and if you have it I hope this will help you adjust the machine and end the problem. Anyway, on a positive note. This is incredible new technology and can be put lots and lots of uses. One of my favorite uses is case work, but its also a dream come true for reinforcing stub tenon cope and bead doors.

[michael case]

Frank,

I agree with you. I should have been clearer. For almost all applications they great and cabinets absolutely. I would recommend owning one of these to any woodworker.

[Nathan Conner]

For almost all applications they great and cabinets absolutely. I would recommend owning one of these to any woodworker.

So, I would tend to agree. But be warned, it's not as simple as pulling it out of the box and going to town with it. I picked one up a couple of weeks ago for a frame & panel open bookcase project that didn't allow for pocket-holes or screws (and I'm not very good at stopped-dado work). It took me probably 5 - 10 times longer than pocket screws, and there was lots of stress and math to get layouts correct for the frame & panel work to make sure the rebate was consistent. Next time, I'll do the domino milling first and then the grooves and dadoes.

The end product, though, was absolutely fantastic. It's no biscuit joiner to use, but the ability to adjust to preset depths to match the depths per piece was very useful, and the shelves and dividers on this bookcase turned out quite well.

Some of the issues I had were repeatable height registry (ended up clamping straightedges on the flat pieces) and the millimeter/inch conversion. 17 looks like 16 looks like 18, and you're never going to be dead-on without detents or something in the height setting. DC was incredible, cuts were clean and precise. Follow their advice about a single register cut, making the rest a loose fit. And be prepared with a mallet after your dry fit. You'll get a workout. I ended up taping my joints and gluing the entire joint, not just the domino itself. May have been overkill, but 5 days later, the joints are stronger than I would have guessed with no racking in a large and wide bookcase.

One more thing. When they say a single registry cut, they're serious. There's no give, so make your marks accurate and stick to them. If you do, you'll be amazed. It just...fits!

With time, I'm sure I'll get the hang of making quick work of this machine, but I'm only a hobbyist without a lot of joinery experience anyhow. So it was a nice learning experience, and this was, I have to say, the first and only project I think I've ever completed (about 50 hours, I think) without a single mistake. I attribute a lot of that to the constant thought about joints, huge number of layout marks and the fiddling with the Domino to make sure I didn't ruin some really nice pieces of cherry. I can't attest to the timesaving aspect, but I can say that it worked as advertised, and then some.

[Vijay Kumar]

Not to hijack this thread, but somewhat related. Has anyone used Dominos for drawer construction. How do they compare to dovetails other than obvious looks. Are they strong enough for drawer construction? If anyone has done this or has links I would appreciate it.

Vijay

[Brice Burrell]

Not to hijack this thread, but somewhat related. Has anyone used Dominos for drawer construction. How do they compare to dovetails other than obvious looks. Are they strong enough for drawer construction? If anyone has done this or has links I would appreciate it.

Vijay

Yes, that Domino works great for drawers. While dovetails give the drawers bit more prestige the Domino can make through mortises to give a little detail to side of your drawers. Make your own tenons out of contrasting wood and you've got a good looking drawer. Festool also came out with the 4 mm tenons that can be used for 1/2" material. Check your PM in box for a link for more info.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

I love mine. Chris you're welcome to come over my place and play around with it if you like. You know where I live!