First (real) planes & a sharpening question

[Charlie Gummer]

I've been bitten by two bugs at once; the handtool bug and the workbench bug. Actually one seems to follow the other. I have the Chris Schwartz workbench book and am very interested in building the Roubo as depicted in the book.

In preparation for the bench I've begun my hunt for planes. I have a new Stanley #5 (purchased long before I found SMC). Haven't had much luck with that one. Reading here in the haven I see the new Stanleys aren't much to write home about. I looked briefly at the price of new, quality planes and quickly realized they were beyond my current budget. After a bit of ebay scouring I found these:

Stanley #7:

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And what was advertised as a Stanley patent #15 block plane:

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I started the rehab process by lapping both soles:

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I then worked to sharpen the blade of the block plane. I have a large piece of granite and several grits of SiC sandpaper up to 2000. I polished the back of the blade the best I could but there is still a mark I'm unable to remove (hard to see in the pic):

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I have a cheap honing guide that I use to set the bevel in the blade at 25 deg. I then set a microbevel at 30 deg. and honed up to 2000 grit:

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The blade does not yet pass the 'shave the hair off your arm test'. I reinstalled the iron in the plane and was able to take nice, consistant curls off of a piece of softwood scrap but would really like to know what I'm missing. Do I need to hone more? Am I expecting too much from the old iron?

This forum has been invaluable in my pursuit of handtool knowledge, I'm very much looking forward to continuing the journey. Thanks for the help!

Charlie

[David Gendron]

Since you said you have a honing guide, I assume that you are using it! I think the maine problem is in the grit at what you stop, it is still to coars. You should look into an finner grit paper, LV sale some, or go to a water stone system or oil stone. But if you want to stay with sand paper, it is possible to get great success with it, you just have to go finner!

[Jim Koepke]

Charlie,

Welcome to the Creek.

David hit the nail on the head. 2000 grit sand paper has a particle size of about 10 microns.
A 4000 stone has a grit size of about 2-4 microns depending on the maker.
An 8000 stone has a grit size of about 1-1.8 microns, also depending on the maker.

The 2000 grit paper can get to a respectable sharpness for shaving wood, but it will not produce a mirror finish.

There is also the possibility of the abrasive sheet bunching in front of the blade during the pushing and pulling of the blade. If you are getting decent shavings, then you likely are not experiencing this problem.

You will find as you get more practice sharpening, you will also get better with what you have. You will also find that what you think is sharp today will be what you think of getting dull in another year or so.

Sharp is a moving target. As you learn more, you will seek more.

jim

[David Christopher]

Since you said you have a honing guide, I assume that you are using it! I think the maine problem is in the grit at what you stop, it is still to coars. You should look into an finner grit paper, LV sale some, or go to a water stone system or oil stone. But if you want to stay with sand paper, it is possible to get great success with it, you just have to go finner!

you're probley right ....I use water stones up to 8000 but I can make a plane blade or chisel shave hair with 400 grit

[Charlie Gummer]

Thanks for the quick responses! I just ordered some of the 5 micron (~ 2500x) and 0.5 micron (~9000x) paper from LV.

[Chen-Tin Tsai]

The lapping on the #7 looks great. How did you go about doing that? I've got a rather beat-up #5 that I need to do that to. :)

[Charlie Gummer]

Hi Chen, thanks for the kind words. I used the same sandpaper on granite technique for lapping both the block plane and the #7.

I'm a bit concerned with a pit in the back of the #7 iron right at the blade edge. Is there any point to proceeding with sharpening or should I just order a replacement Hock iron?

I'm a little disheartened by the pit as the sweetheart iron was part of the reason I went for this particular plane. Oh well.

[Jim Koepke]

I can make a plane blade or chisel shave hair with 400 grit

So can I, but I can sure feel the difference between the 400 and the 8000.


I'm a bit concerned with a pit in the back of the #7 iron right at the blade edge.

How big is the pit? Will you sharpen past it in the next few times the blade is honed?

Your picture of the #7 blade does not show the edge, so the pits were not visible. Do you have another picture?

I have a few blades with pits. The pit may leave a line on the work, but the rest of the blade works. My results with a pitted blade yesterday were quite good. I was tempted to post a picture, but didn't. Maybe I will take a picture today and post it in this thread since you mentioned pitted blades.

One of the things I have noticed after working on a lot of old planes is there is almost always a line of pits under the cap iron where it rests on the blade. Not sure if this comes from putting a plane away without cleaning the blade or if it is the reaction between two different alloys of steel. It seems every time one of my blades is taken out of a plane to be sharpened, there is a line of residue along the meeting place of the blade and cap iron.

jim

[Chen-Tin Tsai]

Hi Chen, thanks for the kind words. I used the same sandpaper on granite technique for lapping both the block plane and the #7.

I'm a bit concerned with a pit in the back of the #7 iron right at the blade edge. Is there any point to proceeding with sharpening or should I just order a replacement Hock iron?

I'm a little disheartened by the pit as the sweetheart iron was part of the reason I went for this particular plane. Oh well.

How big is your piece of granite? I have a couple of granite tiles from the Homies that are 12" square, and while they'll do the #3s and #4s, the #5s hang off either end.

[Charlie Gummer]

Estimating I'd say it's 24" x 24" maybe a bit longer per side. My wife's friends family owned a granite business and I got to pick any piece of scrap I wanted for a small amount of car repair work I did for them. I was originally going to use it as the top for a turntable stand but I think it's officially been repurposed.

I'll keep working the edge of the block plane blade with the paper I have. Another question: one thing that's been elusive so far is the formation of a burr when honing. I've fooled myself a couple of times into thinking one formed but I'm not sure. Is there a more certain way to tell you've formed a burr?

[Jim Koepke]

Another question: one thing that's been elusive so far is the formation of a burr when honing. I've fooled myself a couple of times into thinking one formed but I'm not sure. Is there a more certain way to tell you've formed a burr?

Some feel if you do not get a burr, you do not get sharp. I often do not get a burr when sharpening. With scary sharp, it is often the practice to only pull the blade on the abrasive and not push it. This prevents the paper rising in front of the blade and rounding your edge. When the blade is pulled on an abrasive it will always form a burr if the edge is touching the abrasive.

I will get a burr on coarser grits. Usually I catch my blades before they need anything coarser than a 4000 stone. It only takes a few minutes to touch up a slightly dull blade. If it gets to the point of needing a 1000 or coarser stone, it takes a lot more time.

jim

[Charlie Gummer]

Jim, you saved me the trouble of asking about technique. I've seen mention of pulling only on sandpaper but have not seen an explanation as to why.

This is the #7 blade (apologies for the bad pic) the pit is the slightly shinier area:

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And the curl I was able to take with the block plane:

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~.002"....getting there.

[george wilson]

I only get a burr when my blade is dinged on the edge,or perhaps when it is a new,fairly roughly ground edge.Getting a burr every time is going to wear out your tool.

[Jim Koepke]

Charlie,

Your #7 blade looks like it may have hit a hard object. That will take a bit of work to get past. That is where a powered system comes in handy. Do you have a belt sander or grinder? If you do use power, be careful not to get the blade too hot.

I bought some rolls of PSA backed 80, 150 and 220 grit paper for lapping plane soles. It would come in handy for a use like this. Even a short piece could get your through this pretty quickly.

I would work it down from the back side and then flip the blade to reestablish the bevel.

jim

[Charlie Gummer]

A quick update and a question. I honed the #7 iron, lapped the face of the frog and reassembled. I'm in the process of adjusting the frog and think I've made some decent progress.

I find I'm able to take full face cuts at around .002-.003" thickness no problem. The shavings seem to be uniform thickness. The issues start when I attempt a heavier shaving; say .006-.007". At this depth of cut the plane requires significantly more effort (I expected some additional effort but this does not seem proportional) to push and tends to dig in across the whole face of the iron. Does this sound like more of a technique issue or a setup issue?

[Jim Koepke]

Sounds like too thick of a cut. I am a pretty hefty guy and 0.005" especially with all of a 2-3/8" blade will tire me out pretty quick.

jim

[Charlie Gummer]

Thanks guys; it felt way too heavy, I'm slowly learning to trust the 'feel' of the cut.

[jerry nazard]

Charlie,

.006 is a thick shaving in my book. If you are taking .002 full width cuts on your #7, you are doing GOOD!

Best!

-Jerry

[Charlie Gummer]

Well this is frustrating: I'm not sure what changed between last night and this morning but I couldn't get the #7 to cut at all like it was last night. The last thing I did last night was attempt to take the heavier shaving. Went back this morning and tried to take a lighter cut just to get a little relaxation in before heading in to the office. That relaxation turned into a heap of frustration when no matter how I adjusted the depth of cut or lateral adjuster I could not replicate the shavings I was taking last night. I did exactly the same procedure as last night; retracted the blade fully and then slowly increased the depth of cut while slowly pushing the plane. As soon as I'd start shaving I'd attempt to make lateral adjustments with little avail; it would either cut on one or the other side or in the middle only. This tells me something wrong with the set of the frog?

I'm a bit confused as to the general frog adjustment sequence. I start out with the blade / chip breaker off and loosen the screws holding the frog to the plane base. I put the blade / chip breaker in and advance the frog until the mouth is slightly wider than the thickness of shaving I'm looking to get. I do my best to check the frog for square but there doesn't seem to be much lateral movement. I remove the iron and proceed to tighten the frog mounting screws slowly, alternating between the two until tight. I then reinstall the iron, chipbreaker and lever cap. If I understand correctly the lever cap is supposed to be tight enough to hold things in place yet still allow both lateral adjustment and depth of cut. I wonder if my lever cap may be too loose. Are there any adjustments I'm missing?

Any other thoughts? The feel of the plane cutting last night is enough to motivate me to continue learning from these setbacks as it was an 'ah ha!' moment as to how enjoyable working with hand tools can be.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Charlie, as for the #7 not cutting the "morning after", you may want to see if the chip breaker is clogged with remnants of shavings. If so, it will not cut well, and needs to be fettled.

[Jim Koepke]

As Maurice mentioned, check that your chip breaker is seating fully across the blade. It also needs to be tight so it can not slip when you are adjusting the depth. It should only be about 1/16 from the cutting edge.

My suggestion would be to start at the beginning. Trying to get every adjustment all dialed in at once can cause a lot of frustration and confusion.

After the chip breaker is checked and eliminated as a problem let's eliminate the frog as being a problem.

Set the frog back to where the blade is supported by the frog and the back of the mouth. Do not worry about the side to side at this point. From the pictures it looks like this is at least a late type 9 and has the frog and the base castings to keep the frog from getting very twisted from side to side.

If you have not already checked the blades edge with a square, do so. If the blade is not square, this is OK, but it should give you an idea of what to expect as far as lateral adjustment or if the edge is cambered as to why it is cutting more in the center than at the edges.

After doing the above steps, try and take a shaving or a few. My way of checking my setting is to plane along the edge of a piece of scrap. With a #7, this will give me 3 shavings, left, right and center. Lateral adjustment can be a bit tricky. I usually do not try to take a shaving while adjusting the lever.

When you have done this, post your results and we can continue from there.

Not knowing your schedule it may be difficult to offer rapid response while working on this, but I will do my best. Are you anywhere near Portland, Oregon? If not, you may be near another Creeker who is willing to help.

jim

[Charlie Gummer]

Hey Jim, thanks for the advice. I'm not in a great hurry, I'll be plugging some more on it this evening.

I'm up in Renton, WA and I work in South Seattle. I have family in Portland and coincidentally may be planning a trip down sometime in the near future.

[Matt Radtke]

What problems are you encountering after you twiddle the lateral adjuster? Thicker shaving or less shaving?

[Jim Koepke]

Hey Jim, thanks for the advice. I'm not in a great hurry, I'll be plugging some more on it this evening.

I'm up in Renton, WA and I work in South Seattle. I have family in Portland and coincidentally may be planning a trip down sometime in the near future.

If you have time on the way or back from Portland, I would be happy to have you drop in and have a look at your plane.

I am only about 15 miles from I-5 on State Route 4.

jim

[Charlie Gummer]

Jim that is an extremely generous offer and I will most certainly take you up on it, thank you. We haven't set a date quite yet but I'm sure it will be in the next few weeks. I'll shoot you a PM when we have an idea of a possible time frame.

This evening felt a wee bit like chasing my tail. I did as Jim mentioned and started step by step; checked the chip breaker, no gaps and a nice tight fit to the back of the iron. I set the frog back so that the blade appeared to be supported by the frog and the back of the mouth. I tested on the edge of some scrap 1x4 that I had lying around. It seemed no matter what I could consistently get the plane to cut in the middle of the blade and on either side but not all three 'zones' at the same time. Adjusting the lateral position lever would result in the plane cutting on the opposite side of the blade. I went back and forth doing this for quite some time. At one point it seemed like I was able to take cuts in the middle and on both sides but when attempting to plane the face of the board I was unable to get a full cut. I noticed that I'm unable, even when planing the edge to take anything less than a .004" cut. As soon as I decrease the depth of cut any further the plane just seems to slide over the surface.

Before I bagged it for the evening I checked the seat of the iron and frog and I swear it seems like there are shavings under the frog.

[Charlie Gummer]

Now I'm totally baffled....

On a whim (I am certifiably obsessed) I grabbed a piece of poplar at Lowe's today. Just a small 1x6 to practice with. I decided to take a swipe at it with the #7...this is what happened:

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It was like a freaking spiritual experience. The plane slid through it like butter. This may not be absolutely FULL width but it's pretty damn close. Is poplar really that much softer then the 'premium' pine?

[Jim Koepke]

Jim that is an extremely generous offer and I will most certainly take you up on it, thank you. We haven't set a date quite yet but I'm sure it will be in the next few weeks. I'll shoot you a PM when we have an idea of a possible time frame.

This evening felt a wee bit like chasing my tail. I did as Jim mentioned and started step by step; checked the chip breaker, no gaps and a nice tight fit to the back of the iron. I set the frog back so that the blade appeared to be supported by the frog and the back of the mouth. I tested on the edge of some scrap 1x4 that I had lying around. It seemed no matter what I could consistently get the plane to cut in the middle of the blade and on either side but not all three 'zones' at the same time. Adjusting the lateral position lever would result in the plane cutting on the opposite side of the blade. I went back and forth doing this for quite some time. At one point it seemed like I was able to take cuts in the middle and on both sides but when attempting to plane the face of the board I was unable to get a full cut. I noticed that I'm unable, even when planing the edge to take anything less than a .004" cut. As soon as I decrease the depth of cut any further the plane just seems to slide over the surface.

Before I bagged it for the evening I checked the seat of the iron and frog and I swear it seems like there are shavings under the frog.

Charlie,

Since I am retired as long as I know in advance, I can usually be home.

One thing to check is to make sure there is not a large gap between the blade and the frog. This could happen if the frog is too far back. A blade sliding across the surface of wood could also be a dull blade.

Did you use the ruler trick? If you went too far with the ruler trick this could also be the case.

Unless they are full width, getting wood dust and pieces of shavings under the blade is not uncommon. This tends to happen more with the frog set forward. It also happens when the plane is not used all the way to the end of a board.

The lateral adjustment can be tricky. Sometimes it seems to be all out of proportion to what it does. That is because it is. The other difficulty is that there is no real pivot point to which the lateral lever is indexed. It is mostly working against the point of most friction between the frog and blade which would normally be under the pressure points of the lever cap. Which gets us to how much to tighten the lever cap screw. The lateral lever should not move real easy, but it also should not be real hard. The lateral adjustment should not be able to move by planing repeatedly on one side of the blade. It is one of those things that one will get after using a plane for awhile.

Poplar has a better grain structure than pine. I use a lot of pine because it is common and that makes it inexpensive. Poplar is one of the easy woods to work.

Pine has a tendency to split and have all kinds of grain switching. I have even had some that appeared to plane better against the grain than with the grain. Of course, there are a lot of woods that are harder to work with. Some pine and fir species work like butter some like thistles.

jim

[jerry nazard]

Charlie,

Reading back over the thread from the point that you begin experiencing difficulties, I don't see any mention that you have resharpened. If you were taking .001 shavings and moved to .006, you could have put a wee mite of wear on your edge. Take a few minutes to put a fresh edge on your iron, and see what happens.

-Jerry

[Charlie Gummer]

I indeed have not resharpened the plane iron, something I will make sure to do tonight.

I did use the ruler trick originally, I can easily see I may have overdone it. I'm going to try for a much more slight back bevel this time.

[John Coloccia]

Are you taking backlash into account? When you're adjusting thousandths, it's easy to back the blade off what you think is just a touch, and then as soon as the blade hit's the wood it backs off some more. I always approach it by backing way off, and then gently inching forward until I get the cut I want.

Maybe it's not your problem, but it's worth a try. I never have it go from cutting to not cutting. If my blade is dull, I'll go from cutting to making dust at least, which is what makes me think that maybe the blade's just not making contact.

[Sam Takeuchi]

When diagnosing problems with a hand plane, sharp blade or relatively sharp blade is pretty much pre-requisitive, sometimes all it takes is sharpening to get everything back to working normally.

How is your plane sole? I know you lapped it pretty well, but with all these issues, you might want to check the sole again. It could be too concave or convex. You don't have to be too obsessed about flatness though, just at least it's not excessively off flat to cause problems.

[Jim Koepke]

In regards to what Sam said:

If your plane's sole is convex from side to side, it will plane at the edges and not the center when it begins to cut.

If your plane's sole is concave from side to side, it will plane at the center and not the edges when it begins to cut.

It is all fundamental physics when you break it down into simple problems.
In my experience, breaking it down to one problem at a time is often the easiest way to solve many problems.

jim

[Charlie Gummer]

In regards to what Sam said:

If your plane's sole is convex from side to side, it will plane at the edges and not the center when it begins to cut.

If your plane's sole is concave from side to side, it will plane at the center and not the edges when it begins to cut.

It is all fundamental physics when you break it down into simple problems.
In my experience, breaking it down to one problem at a time is often the easiest way to solve many problems.

jim

Agreed. Designing machinery I often have to make myself stop and break a complex problem down into numerous simpler problems. I see it's no different when tuning a plane. Looks like I have a number of things to check this evening, once again I'm truly impressed by the wealth of knowledge shared here.

[Charlie Gummer]

Positive progress this evening. I took the time to check the sole of the plane; I drew diagonal lines across the sole at the toe, area right in front of the mouth and at the heel with a sharpie. After taking a few passes on coarse paper I saw the marks coming down along the sides first indicating the sole was slightly convex. I lapped until all of my marks were gone.

I honed the edge of the iron; 1200X, 4500X and 12,000X (5 micron and 0.3 micron for the last two) brought the microbevel to a mirror. I used the ruler trick on the back of the iron but in a much smaller, more concentrated manner this time. In the past I've been able to shave hairs with the blade but never this effortlessly. I think I'm finally approaching 'sharp'.

I reassembled everything and I'll be damned if it isn't taking much more even shavings. I'm very close to full width cuts even on my pine practice boards.

I'm stopping myself for the moment else I'll never get started on the Fracture Mechanics term paper I have to write....I think most of you know what I'd rather be doing.

Thanks again for all of the very helpful suggestions and words of encouragement.

[jerry nazard]

Charlie - You are indeed making progress! :cool:

[Jim Koepke]

Sounds like you are doing well.

There is some information from the Seattle Tool Event about blade sharpening that I am going to put in the thread about the Seattle tool event.

jim

[Charlie Gummer]

A new (to me) realization; while the scary sharp system is quite economical to get started, it starts to add up quickly. This is especially true when you have to order the specialty paper.

I stopped into Woodcraft today and picked up a Veritas MKII honing guide and a Norton 1000/8000 waterstone. I really wanted the 4000/8000 but they were out and I have very little willpower at times.

How terrible is polishing going to be moving immediately from 1000 -> 8000? My hope is that it won't be that bad when just doing the microbevel.

[jerry nazard]

Charlie,

You're just fine. The 1000 is very useful for prep work, more so than the 4000. Use the 8000 for final honing/polishing. Good setup.

-Jerry