From Scary Sharp to Norton Waterstones?

[Brian Kent]

Has anyone started with scary sharp sandpaper sharpening and moved over to waterstones? Was it worth it?

I have been using 3M abrasives (40, 15, 5, 1, and .3 micron) on a granite tile. I make a hollow grind on a 6" grinder and then sharpen freehand, or with a cheap honing guide when helpful.

I just used my last set of 3m abrasives and it is time to restock. At the recent Lie Nielsen event I got some help on a plane iron by a guy with a 1000/8000 Norton Waterstone. He said he just used whatever kind was put before him. He did excellent work, and I am sure it was 99% technique.

I can either buy more 3m abrasives and be set for the next year or I can switch to Norton Waterstones. I would get the the 220/1000 and the 4000/8000 combos and a flattening plate (plus tub, holder and DVD) for $130.

If I switch now, I have $150 tops to work with.

Should I switch? Would you make a different recommendation for the same cost? I would still plan on one more finer stone in the future and, for now, use my 1 micron and .3 micron paper if needed.

Thanks in advance. All of the threads I read in the past have gotten me this far in the process.

Brian

[Jim Koepke]

Brian,

I have used both methods and will continue using both. I do use the stones more now, but certain aspects of the scary sharp method blend in well.

I would advise against a combo stone with the 220 grit. The coarser grits wear faster. As your blades get sharp, you will find there is less use for even the 1000 if you sharpen again before they get real dull.

This is where scary sharp comes in for me. The coarse work is done on paper, the fine work on stones. If a bit of residue needs cleaning from a blade, then some finer paper is used to keep the contamination off the stones.

For flattening, a special plate is not needed. Too many have complained about them not being flat. For me, a piece of granite or marble tile with some PSA sand paper seems to take care of a stone in no time.

Just my 2¢...

jim

[Kent A Bathurst]

Mr. Kent:

(1) what is your source for the 3M?

(2) I have been pondering the same move - for 4000 + 8000 stones - sounds like Jim K more-or-less endorses that method.

Kent

[Brian Kent]

Kent,

I use either Tools For Working Wood:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=ST-MAF.XX&Category_Code=THS

or Lee Valley:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33004&cat=1,43072

along with a granite tile from Home Depot.

Nice name, by the way.

Brian Kent

[Joe McMahon]

I started with scary sharp and moved to Norton waterstones and got better results. Recently i went to Naniwa stones at TFWW http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-CHOSERA.XX&Category_Code=THW
and I get substantially better results. The key to waterstone use is to keep flattening them. This afternoon I finished seven new LN chisels and they are the best that I have ever done.

LN sent me new chisels to replace old ones I had that had edge retention issues. I sharpened the old ones on Norton waterstones and the new ones on Naniwa and I must say that the Naniwa were faster and got the chisels a lot sharper.

As an asside, whenever I have to flatten a back of a chisel or plane blade that is really out of whack, I start with PSA 150 grit sandpaper on a piece of float glass, then 22o grit then 320 grit. This method is very fast and gets you in the ballpark to head to the waterstones. I guess that you could say that I use both systems and am very happy with the results.

HTH, Joe

[Paul Incognito]

How do these systems compare to DMT diamond stones?

[Casey Gooding]

I would get a 1000 stone and an 8000 stone. Use sandpaper for coarse work as the coarse waterstones wear very quickly.

[Phillip Pattee]

Brian,

I started with Scary Sharp and made the switch to exactly the set up you are asking about. I also use a six inch grinder to hollow grind chisels and plane blades. I got my waterstone setup from Peachtree woodworking: http://www.ptreeusa.com/norton_waterstone.htm. It's a little less that the price you mentioned. Buying sandpaper does start to run up a tab after awhile. In the long run, the waterstones will last so long compared to sandpaper that it is probably cheaper. I also started getting my tools sharper with the water stones. Like others have mentioned, don't dispose of your scary sharp setup because it is still really useful for flattening your waterstones and initial flattening of blades, etc.

[Dave Beauchesne]

I have been using paper on a granite plate for several years.

Just bit the bullet and bought a 1000, 4000, 8000 and 16,000 Shapton Glass Stone set, C/W the diamond flattening plate ( gulp !! ), but I figured I would go whole hog once.

I haven't even taken the cellophane off the nice black boxes, but I have to spend more time in the shop and less on SMC!

A decent set of Norton combo stones should be more than adequate; Good Luck!

Dave Beauchesne

[Harlan Barnhart]

I can get a better edge with water stones than paper or oil stones. Look at the the naniwa set. For less than $150 you can have a 1,000/4,000/8,000 set. They come recommended by me. I had norton but like the naniwa slightly better.

[Mark Stutz]

I started with scary sharp and moved to Norton waterstones and got better results. Recently i went to Naniwa stones at TFWW http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-CHOSERA.XX&Category_Code=THW

HTH, Joe

Joe,
I assume you have the Chosera stones rather than the #Super-stones". I'm intrigued that you find them noticeably better than the Norton's. I would assume a little better, but this makes these very tempting especially since they are on sale. Which ones do you have? I can't see the need for a 400 for my purposes (Scary Sharp is quicker). How does the 5000 compare to the Norton 8000? I'm assuming that would be the "equivalent" since the sets have the 5000. If you have it, does the 10,000 make a noticable difference?

Thanks.

Mark

[David Romano]

I made the transition a while back. I have a couple of granite plates (heavy) for sharpening jointer blades and found it was to much trouble to get them out for chisels and plane irons. Plus the sandpaper doesn't last long and it's hard to get the stuff off the plate, clean it and install a new one.

So I got the Norton combo kit and am glad I made the switch, but the combo kit is not the way to go. First, the 220 grit is too soft, and the "flattening" stone does not stay flat. So I bought a 8" DMT diamond plate, coarse grit, to flatten the waterstones. That works great and lasts virtually forever.

My sharpening technique for chisels and irons is to grind out chips on a Norton 3x wheel, then switch to the diamond plate followed by the 4000/8000 grit waterstone. I do use the 1000 grit stone since I have it, but think I would buy a 2nd, finer grit, diamond plate instead.

For jointer baldes, I use the grinder, then the diamond plate, then switch to scary sharp on the granite. Again, if I knew what I know now, I'd skip the granite plate and go with finer grit diamonds.

Hope this helps you :)

David

[Brian Kent]

Thank you David. I see that Craftsman Studio has the coarse DMT diamond plate for $46.

Does anyone here use the DMT Diamond stones for sharpening. For instance the 1000 and 8000 equivalent from Craftsman Studio is in my price range.

[James Taglienti]

I started with scary sharp and moved on to oilstones... i bought a bunch of natural stones at an auction and couldn't resist putting them to work... i have a coarse waterstone that i use for flattening and getting rid of nicks. it seems to work prety well but it gets out of true very fast. it is much easier to flatten than a natural stone however, so i keep using it.

[Joel Goodman]

I use the 1200 DMT and then with a microbevel either the 4000 and then the 8000 norton or sometimes to the 8000 directly. I haven't tried the finer DMT but I doubt it's fine enough for a finishing stone. I think the waterstone slurry ends up finer than the grit of the stone -- I don't know if a diamond stone would operate that way. I don't find flattening the Norton to be that bad a chore especially of you avoid the lower grits and do it often. Either a coarse DMT or sandpaper works fine for that.

[Paul Incognito]

Brian, I use the DMT diamond stones and they seem to get my chisels and plane irons plenty sharp. I'm wondering how they stack up against the scary sharp and the water stones, though.
PI

[michael osadchuk]

Brian

I'm heavily invested in King synthetic and natural Japanese waterstones and use sandpaper on marble or granite floor tile to flatten them.

I echo the comment about Norton's 220 grit being too soft ... I had bought the single 220 grit block by Norton and returned because it was disappearing at the rate of 1/32" in thickness per plane blade sharpening .... the big block single grit 200 at Lee Valley is ok.


Consider Shapton glass stones for less maintainance, which is what I would strongly lean toward if I was starting afresh ... they are significantly pricey than waterstones..... however I just googled 'shapton glass stones' and came up with a Shapton glass stone 220 grit, 8.25" by 2.75" being sold by www.chefknivestogo.com for $34.20 which I think is pretty good.

Lee Valley's green aluminum oxide honing stick is cheap, is rated at .5 micron and can be used on a piece of mdf, with a bit of mineral oil/baby oil, to give you a very fine honing grit.... as well as use to make a strop.

good luck

michael

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

I made this switch and am generally quite a bit happier about it. The problem I always had with sandpaper was that it would get loaded but not look that way, so it would mysteriously stop working right; never had this problem with the waterstones, although they do go out of true and need flattening.

As for which stones, I got the pair you were looking at. The Norton 220 is not my favorite stone in the world—it's simultaneously not really that fast cutting IMHO and also wears really fast, so I had to get a dedicated 220 stone after nearly killing the 220 side on my 220/1000. The slurry also has a tendency to work itself into the guide rollers on honing guides, which is a pain in the butt to fix.

I think the real problem is that I was expecting a grinder or something out of the 220, and it's not really good at that but gets deputized into doing it because I have nothing else. If you do rough grinding with something else and then use the 220 like you would the 1000 and 4000, it's just fine.

As for rough grinding with bench stones, I have one DMT diamond stone, but it's not that much faster than the 220, so still looking for alternatives there. If you're happy with sandpaper for grinding, you could stick with that and get the 4000/8000 (which I'm very happy with).

[dan sherman]

for $135 you can pick up 1k,5k, 8k Naniwa super stones from sharpening supplies, and use some 220 grit wet dry sandpaper glued to your surface plate to flatten them. The really nice then about the ss is that they don't need to be soaked.

[Don Dorn]

Being lazy, I got tired of flattening waterstones (which have worked very well). I bought the DMT 8" 600/1200 stone but don't use the 600 side. Now, I can just spritz the diamond stone and hone the bevel to get my burr back on the sharpening bevel (about 7 or 8 backward strokes) , then move to the 800 waterstone and do the same thing to polish it. I take it out of the jig and remove the burr on the 8000. It takes a long time doing that on an 8000 to dish it out, but regardless, my next purchase will be the DMT 8000 diamond stone.

The only place I don't take a shortcut is the backs when I originally get a blade. I don't use the ruler trick and spend the time to polish the back. That way, when I have to refresh it, I use the above method which takes about a minute, then back to work. They will slice through receipt paper with zero effort and that's sharp enough for me. If I used the hair on the arm trick, I wouldn't have any left because it just peels away.

[Brian Kent]

From your great replies I see several affordable paths:

Sharpening Supplies:
$140.00 DMT 4 grit duo-sharp Plus with base

Tools for Working Wood
$130.00 3 Naniwa Super Stones 1000, 3000, 8000

Craftsman Studio (free shipping)
$104.00 Norton 220/1000 + 4000/8000 + holder
$130.00 Norton 1000 + 8000 + holder

I feel comfortable with any of these so I'll sleep on it and see what I can learn tomorrow.

Thanks,

Brian

[Sandy Stanford]

Has anyone started with scary sharp sandpaper sharpening and moved over to waterstones? Was it worth it?

I have been using 3M abrasives (40, 15, 5, 1, and .3 micron) on a granite tile. I make a hollow grind on a 6" grinder and then sharpen freehand, or with a cheap honing guide when helpful.

I just used my last set of 3m abrasives and it is time to restock. At the recent Lie Nielsen event I got some help on a plane iron by a guy with a 1000/8000 Norton Waterstone. He said he just used whatever kind was put before him. He did excellent work, and I am sure it was 99% technique.

I can either buy more 3m abrasives and be set for the next year or I can switch to Norton Waterstones. I would get the the 220/1000 and the 4000/8000 combos and a flattening plate (plus tub, holder and DVD) for $130.

If I switch now, I have $150 tops to work with.

Should I switch? Would you make a different recommendation for the same cost? I would still plan on one more finer stone in the future and, for now, use my 1 micron and .3 micron paper if needed.

Thanks in advance. All of the threads I read in the past have gotten me this far in the process.

Brian

Before you adopt some elaborate, expensive protocol think about how the Goddard/Townsend shops kept their edges sharp. If you've ever seen a museum piece attributed to these makers, I think you'll come to the conclusion that their edges did not hold them back at all. Take a tour of Medieval English churches and you'll see that joiners and carvers weren't hamstrung either.

There is nothing wrong with using improved sharpening media, there is something wrong with making it expensive, elaborate, ponderous, or an end in itself. I would stop well before I felt like I was on the verge of doing so.

A simple grinder and a set of stones OR sandpaper on glass which is a proxy for stones is all you really need.

IMO, you'll be glad in the long run if you keep it very simple.

[David Keller NC]

From your great replies I see several affordable paths:

Sharpening Supplies:
$140.00 DMT 4 grit duo-sharp Plus with base

Tools for Working Wood
$130.00 3 Naniwa Super Stones 1000, 3000, 8000

Craftsman Studio (free shipping)
$104.00 Norton 220/1000 + 4000/8000 + holder
$130.00 Norton 1000 + 8000 + holder

I feel comfortable with any of these so I'll sleep on it and see what I can learn tomorrow.

Thanks,

Brian

Brian - If you're already hollow-grinding your bevels, then you definitely do not need a 220/1000 grit combo. In fact, you don't need a 4000 grit either. It's my usual practice to go straight from the grinder to a Norton or King 8000 grit stone, and because I'm only honing a microbevel because of the grinding, I get an edge that's well beyond razor sharp in about 5 strokes - another 6 strokes slightly cambers the edge.

As for diamond stones, I do have a coarse DMT that I've used a good bit to do the coarse flattening work on the backs of antique blades. However, it's been my experience that these stones do not last very long - the abrasive action breaks down quickly. Water or oil stones will last far, far longer, with the only disadvantage that they need occasional flattening.

[Mark Roderick]

Any of these approaches will get your tools plenty sharp.

The great thing about sandpaper is that it's always flat - but sandpaper clogs and wears out.

The great thing about stones is they're always fresh - but stones have to be flattened regularly.

Take your pick.

[Dewald van Lamp]

I read this topic up on the forums before I splurged on the Norton 4,000/8,000 combination stone.

I went with sandpaper up to P1200 before switching to the waterstones, but this past weekend I cut out the P1200 sandpaper and went directly to the 4,000 Norton from P800. Significant time saver and the 4,000 grit did not take longer than usual.

I give 'em a final hone on green stick rubbed on MDF with oil as a lubricant.

I'm very happy with the results I get, but will look into diamond stones soon just to try them out.

The neverending quest continues...

:)

[Tom Henderson2]

Thank you David. I see that Craftsman Studio has the coarse DMT diamond plate for $46.

Does anyone here use the DMT Diamond stones for sharpening. For instance the 1000 and 8000 equivalent from Craftsman Studio is in my price range.

Norton stones are a good way to go. I didn't care for the mess left with the sandpaper-on-glass flattening method so went with a DMT duosharp diamond plate and never stopped to look back. Not cheap, but works great with no mess.

But somewhere I got the impression that the single-grit diamond plates weren't recommended for stone flattening but I don't recall why.

Call Bill at Craftsman Studio and see what he thinks; he is a good guy IMHO.

-TH

[David Gendron]

I like my Norton stones, but I think if I would start over again, I would go with Chosera stone, Super stone or realy good quality oil stones, I don,t like the DMT(they don't seem to last). I use sand paper on granit plate to do rough work and to flaten the WS.

[Brian Kent]

David,

You are my northernmost friend. On wunderground.com I have a "Whitehorse, Yukon Territory" button just to watch your weather. I see you are having a heat wave (32° F)

Brian

By the way, back on topic, how are those Naniwa Super Stones for durability? I like that you do not have to keep them soaked.

[Harlan Barnhart]

By the way, back on topic, how are those Naniwa Super Stones for durability? I like that you do not have to keep them soaked.
They are a little soft but I am willing to accept that for the way they cut. In my experience the 1000 sees a lot more wear than the 4000 or 8000, those two will likely last longer than I will.

[Brian Kent]

Call Bill at Craftsman Studio and see what he thinks; he is a good guy IMHO.

-TH

I wrote to Bill at Craftsman Studio. His strong recommendation is for Shapton Waterstones. A set of 3 with the box is out of range at the moment ($239) but a 1000 and 8000 is $137.

For right now the 1000 and 8000 Shaptons are my top contender.

[Nick Laeder]

Currently, I use DMT diamond plates, but I don't know anything.

The Shaptons look cool to me because I work in an unheated (unless I'm in there) shop. I've been scared of waterstones because I didn't want to try to extract them from a block of ice the first time I forgot to bring them inside with me.

I may start saving my allowance.

[dan sherman]

For right now the 1000 and 8000 Shaptons are my top contender.

if your talking about the glass stones that don't need soaked be careful, because I have heard that you need to use a diamond stone to flatten them, because they are so hard.

Additionally most of the MDT stones aren't really flat.

[Brian Kent]

Bill at Craftsman Studio recommends flattening them on 220 grit sandpaper on a glass plate.

[Bill Rogers]

Brian,

I have been following this posting with great interest as I am in the process of making a similar decision and I am curious as to which "stones" you decided to buy?

Bill

[Brian Kent]

I will be purchasing either 2 or 3 Shapton Glass Stones today.
Either the 1,000 and 8,000 for $137 or the 1,000, 4,000, and 8,000 for $199 from Craftsman Studio.

I will not be buying Shapton's accessories - not a "Diamond Lapping Plate" for $320 or a "Sharpening Pond" for $200 or a "Stone Holder" for $90, and I will avoid the $310 30,000 grit stone and the 16,000 grit for $110. :rolleyes:

After avoiding these $1,020 worth of accessories and super grits, the 2 or 3 stones I plan to buy seem really cheap!

With that said, I have gotten very good results from the Scary Sharp system when the 3M abrasives are fresh. I saw outstanding results from a skilled sharpener using Norton Water Stones on my plane blade, and have read nothing but good things about Naniwa stones, so they are probably all great.

My slight tipping point of Shapton over Norton is that I would rather spritz my stones than have a soaking pan. That's all. I will let you know how they work.

Thank you for all of your vast experience and great advice.

Brian

[Mark Roderick]

Now that we're getting into the realm of personal preference, I'll say that I love the feel of the Norton 8000. It feels silky and smooth on the steel. Interestingly, the Norton 4000 does not have that feel.

You won't go wrong choosing among any of these stones, I'm just saying that a preference can be based on something beyond "Will it get my tools sharp?"

[Brian Kent]

Now that we're getting into the realm of personal preference, I'll say that I love the feel of the Norton 8000. It feels silky and smooth on the steel. Interestingly, the Norton 4000 does not have that feel.

You won't go wrong choosing among any of these stones, I'm just saying that a preference can be based on something beyond "Will it get my tools sharp?"

That's a really good point. We use these a lot and for a long time, so might as well use what feels right.

I placed my order today for the 3 Shaptons: 1000, 4000, 8000.

As to your point Mark, I also saw several reviews that said how much people liked the feel of the higher grit Naniwa stones. I'll let you know about the feel of the Shaptons when they come.

[Richard Jones]

.....I love the feel of the Norton 8000. It feels silky and smooth on the steel. Interestingly, the Norton 4000 does not have that feel.....

Ain't that the truth!!! Hardly seems like it's made by the same company..........

Rich

[Richard Jones]

....I placed my order today for the 3 Shaptons: 1000, 4000, 8000.

As to your point Mark, I also saw several reviews that said how much people liked the feel of the higher grit Naniwa stones. I'll let you know about the feel of the Shaptons when they come.

Brian,

I also have the 1k and 4k Shapton GS's. The 4k will give a much higher finish than any other 4k that I've used, more like a 6k. I haven't tried the 8k Shapton. I do have a 10K SS that I like more than the Norton 8k, seems smoother and doesn't seem as prone to gouging, which doesn't make sense. Mine work/polish better with some mud. Flatten them with whatever. It's a stone, not unobtanium...........:D I will say that the GS's feel different than say, a Norton or a King. Not bad, just different. I do have to clean them more than the Norton or King or Naniwa, but each stone is different. Vive le difference!!

Just my $.02, as usual.

I think you made a good choice.

And oh yeah, make sure you tell your wife how much you saved by NOT buying all that other stuff!!

Rich

[David Gendron]

+1 on the feel of the 8000, wish they would make a 12000! The 4000 I have a is a King and realy like it, feel the same as the 8000 norton.

[Brian Kent]

Mine work/polish better with some mud. Flatten them with whatever.


Rich

Mud? Slurry?

Brian

By the way, the prop they used for the "unobtainium" on Avatar was Galena, which is a beautiful crystal of lead ore.

[Richard Jones]

Yes, mud=slurry. The Naniwa especially seems to give a higher polish with mud than without.

Let us know how you like them.

Rich

[Brian Kent]

The Shapton Glass Stones came quickly from Craftsman Studio. This is the Woodworkers Set that includes a 1000, 4000, and 8000 with a stand.

I waited for a day off to give them a try. I had 4 "Two Cherries" chisels that need sharpening so I put a fresh hollow grind on each of them. The first 2 I used my Scary Sharp system using 3M abrasives. The second 2 I tried the glass stones.

The first thing to show up on all 4 is the limit of my grinding jig. I see now that my jig rocks a little and the sides of the hollow grind are deeper than the middle, so I lose some of that 2-point balance when I hone freehand.

I took the first two through the grits, 5 stages from 45 microns to .5. When finished, they looked better than they usually have, since I was very careful and thorough. I have a block of birch in the vise with the end-grain up. I could only pare the end grain with a great deal of force. I had to lean into it with my hip. Very unsafe amount of force.

Before you say it, I will:
I know that the primary issue is my technique - not the sandpaper.

Then I got out the new glass stones. On the 1000, I worked on the back for a little bit (which I did on all 4 chisels). These stones are amazingly fast! The slurry picture is the result of about 10 seconds of back-lapping on the 1000 stone.

Going through the stones took probably 1/3 to 1/4 the time of the Scary Sharp. But time is not an issue in itself. I got less rounding, probably because there was less time for me to introduce technique errors.

On my test, I pared the birch end grain easily, with reasonable and safe pressure.

So for me, at this moment in my growth in sharpening technique, with my skill and error ratios, all that, the Shapton Stones are far better. Having said that, if I was starting over four years ago I still would have started with Scary Sharp because I needed other tools before I needed the Glass Stones.

Brian Kent

[Brian Kent]

Four more pictures.

The first two are the chisels sharpened on the Glass Stones. The third is the chisels sharpened on Scary Sharp. The last is the set in its holder.

[Ellis Anderson]

I have the 220/1000 and 4000/8000 combos you're looking into. I second the opinion that others have on the 220 abrasive being too friable. The Norton 220 basically crumbles away on you and it is very difficult to use it for bulk steel removal since it goes out of flat so fast. I had to buy a Shapton 120 stone to deal with some hard laminated irons that the 220 wouldn't make a dent in. The higher Norton grits are much better at biting into steel. You would be better off getting a regular 1000 grit stone so that it lasts longer. The 1000 is the one I use the most for breaking in new tools, fixing small chips, and re-honing dull tools. You won't be spending a lot of time on the 4000 and 8000 and they will be hard to wear out provided you don't gouge them up.

That being said I like the Norton flattening stone even though it is made from the same 220 grit abrasive as their grinding stone. It is the right size to handle the other Norton stones and it flattens them pretty quickly. If you use it with some care you can keep the wear distributed across its face so you don't have to flatten it very often. It will need flattening and for this I have a strip of 60 grit sanding belt glued to a piece of MDF. This is also used to flatten my Shapton 120 since I don't see the point in investing in their lapping system for such a coarse stone.

[Bob Jones]

Please let me know how it goes for you. I am trying to make the same decision. Scary sharp is working ok, but the paper just does not last long and I am getting some inconsistent results. May just be me, or I may be using the paper too long.

Thanks!

[Brian Kent]

Bob, I am very happy with the Shapton Stones. I have no reference to compare with Nortons, but I am getting miles better results than with scary sharp. Way faster and I don't introduce as many mistakes.

[Paul Murphy]

Brian, I'll also add to the vote for a large DMT coarse stone for flattening your nice water stones, and the backs of blades that need a lot of work.

I'm still getting by with some older water stones, and reliable stone flattening and the coarse work on the DMT has made that possible.

The nicer water stones such as yours are very tempting.